Last night I was thinking about your post which I cited earlier, and just happened to have one of those "Hey, wait a minute..." moments (in the middle of the night at that) when thinking about those passages in 1 Peter (lol). I had always assumed the same as you - that the "spirits in prison" of 1st Peter were the "angels" described in 2nd Peter - till I re-read the passages.
quote:
Well, those were just my words - I don't think Christ was gloating.
I think I had gathered this impression more from past teachings I've heard on this (i.e., Earl Burton in his version of the "Intermediate Class" years ago, if I'm recalling correctly).
quote:
I used to think they had caused the flood (that's what TWI taught). But from what I've read, especially from Enoch, its makes sense Christ would preach to those spirits in prison who are being held for abominating mankind.
I don't think there's any question of angels being connected with the flood in 2nd Peter and Enoch. But the passages in 1 Peter raise doubts in my mind -I think in those passages we may not be concerned with the angels who caused the flood, but the "spirits" who were wiped out by it.
quote:
There's a fascinating book I need to find, I forget who wrote it. I believe it is by a Christian. His premise was that since Christians take the Bible literally, let's also take the drawings and pictures people had made and their descriptions of these kings of the pre-flood world, literally too. His findings were astounding - if you take it literally.
Interesting stuff.
That does sound pretty interesting. If you ever recall the title to this work, please let me know.
quote:
I'm also tending to think, as Revelations says God will kick Satan and his angels out of heaven to the earth in the last days. That's an astounding thought if you think about it - cast down to earth.
As if we don't have enough problems down here already (lol).
quote:
Earth will see a reappearance of these angels again. I think most people will welcome them as "Aliens."
I went through a whacky phase a few years ago of collecting books on the subject of supposed UFO Crashes. One book, "UFO Crash at Aztec", had a bizarre pic in it of how dinosaurs would have appeared today had they not died out and continued evolving - which of course, resembled those black-eyed "greys" so popular nowadays (lol).
quote:
Of course, who knows!! For me its food for thought. But, if we are truly in the last days, it seems God is awakening Christians to what is written in the Word, that really wasn't paid too much attention to, to prepare his children for what's to come and not to fall for the "great delusion" God will send.
Its fun to read and think about.
I agree - it is good to keep an open mind, and contemplate the possibilities - and entertaining as well.
quote:
ok, that's my .02 cents. And no, I'm not going off the deep end!
That's okay - you're in good company :)-->
On a final note - Mark: on the authorship of Enoch - at least to me personally, it's a moot point as to whether Enoch can actually be proven to have written this work or not. For that matter, we can't always be absolutely certain that the various writings of the New Testament were actually written by the names to which they are attributed. What interests me more is the actual content of ideas found in such works as Enoch, and how deeply these ideas lived within and influenced the culture from which these writings originated. These extra-canonical writings are immensely invaluable toward helping us understand how people thought in antiquity. I have little doubt that Jesus and "Paul" and "Peter" were familiar with "The Book of Enoch" as well as other works in circulation at the time.
We each take each others words and build from there. Surely God Himself is the wise master builder. Water boys and girls is all we are. And God gives the increase Himself.
To put into words what we see in our minds is quite the task....
With regard to the book of Enoch. I have a copy I made as a computer file. I have read it in its entirety. I just reviewed some of it. Most of this book is written in the first person as one would write a personal diary with Enoch the chief character. Some is written from the third person with Enoch again the chief character.
I just read that some people think the book of Enoch was written by a Jew and not Enoch himself. Another person said this Jew wrote the book of Enoch perhaps between 150-80 BC. After reading the book of Enoch and noticing both its content and writing style I would have to think that this Jewish person had quite an imagination. I say this with sarcasm. For someone to write such a work without the benefit of previously written text I think is impossible. And I don't think oral tradition would cut it either so as to be able to write such detailed accounts pertaining to specific incidents that occured a few thousand years before his time and without actually having been an eye witness. Again the book of Enoch for the large part was written in first person by someone who says there name was Enoch who actually experienced the incidents described. If a Jewish scribe did write what we have today as the book of Enoch it is more likely that he compiled the written works that were handed down before his time. Either that or this Jew had an incredible imagination and tried to pull off the biggest hoax of his or any day.
That is the most quiet and vibration free bike I have ever straddled. In fact~~~ I experienced the Gold Wing when Honda first put them on the road. We use to trade bikes for the day. And I traded my Harley '75 1200 Sportster, which would numb your foot in 50 miles, for a free ride the Honda Gold Wing ~~~ quite a difference~~~ give me a rumble anytime :D-->~~~
always carry a spare helmet when solo~~~ them long hot pant legs love a ride to the invisible 7/11~~~Rok On :D-->
"That is the most quiet and vibration free bike I have ever straddled."
They sure are.
And the engine sits so terribly low, laying down flat like that, and the fuel tank being so far down too, the center of gravity is very low. With the roll bars on it, I can lay it down on it's side and nothing touchs the ground. If you stay seated, your legs are still 4 inches off the ground even when the bike is laying on it's side. It's quite I can hear a good deal of nature while driving [if my stereo is off]. :-)
It is hard to imagine that I have owned cars with smaller engines. :-)
"... I traded my Harley '75 1200 Sportster, which would numb your foot in 50 miles,"
I used to carry a hug tool-roll. But over the years, I never did use it for anything on my bike, I was always loaning it out to help all the Hardley guys that I ended up riding alongside of.
A lot of those hardleys you see sitting on the side of the road, man.
I dont carry any tools anymore. I bought this Gold-wing 2 years ago, just as the bike turned 20 years old. Got it for $1,000. It's blue-book value is less than the cost it would be to have a shop do about anything to it. So the first sign of a break-down and it is going to the dump. But that was 10,000 miles ago. I did change the oil, I dont know why, but I did. It just keeps running. It would not surprize me if I get another 100,000 miles out of it.
The guy that I bought it from, really did not ride it much, he never took it for a coast-to-coast run. I have done a bunch of those drives on a couple different Kawasakis that I have had. It is a good drive, about 3 days depending on which highway you use. This Gold-wing though it only had 80,000 miles on it when I got it, very low mileage, for a 20 year old gold-wing. Kawaskis dont hold up the way that Gold-wings do, By the time you get a Kawasaki up to 75,000 or 100,000 miles it is pretty well worn.
With regard to the book of Enoch. I have a copy I made as a computer file. I have read it in its entirety. I just reviewed some of it. Most of this book is written in the first person as one would write a personal diary with Enoch the chief character. Some is written from the third person with Enoch again the chief character.
...(snip)
Again the book of Enoch for the large part was written in first person by someone who says there name was Enoch who actually experienced the incidents described. If a Jewish scribe did write what we have today as the book of Enoch it is more likely that he compiled the written works that were handed down before his time. Either that or this Jew had an incredible imagination and tried to pull off the biggest hoax of his or any day.
Mark,
There's still much we do not know in regards to the actual process which the writers of this sacred literature underwent. I oft wonder if the methodology of "prophets" in the ancient world was akin to that of the ancient Greek Sybils.
In any event, your questions brought to mind a certain possibility, in view of the belief that Enoch was "translated" by God that he might not see death; if I recall correctly, there's a section in "Enoch" in which is described Enoch's transformation into an angel. I recall Otto Everling discussing this in "Paulinische Angelologie und Damonologie" which I'll have to review again to see if I can relocate this reference.
Consider this: might "Enoch" -now transformed into an angel - be "moving" or inspiring the prophets or writers behind this ancient work?
Angels were oft regarded - especially in the Old Testament literature - as those actual spirits (or "holy spirit(s)") "upon" the prophets. Angels were the source, and the "mediators" between god and man.
Angels were thought to have played a crucial role in the empowerment and execution of the so-called "spiritual gifts" - and indications of this belief can still be seen throughout 1 Cor.12-14, the Qumran ("dead Sea Scroll") literature as well as other extra-canonical works.
Perhaps Enoch -now a spirit-angel - served as the source or mediator for the writers behind the work which bears his name. This is something the writers themselves may have certainly believed.
Hi Danny. You brought up an interesting point about Enoch and angels. My recollection is that the angels of the OT were always in human or physical form. Can you suggest any OT scriptures that indicata angels working in the form of "spirit upon" someone?
And just for discussion; I've read Enoch and didn't find it to be particularly credible. Most canonized books present a fairly consistent worldview or are in line with what we know about basic geology and astronomy. Enoch seems to say that the sun revolves around the earth, which is obviously not factual. Because of this glaring error, I found it hard to believe the details of his ascent through the seven heavens.
What is the attraction to the non-cannonical books anyway? Is it a need to find some hidden truth? Or is the allure of a conspiracy so enticing that is drives us to look for things that are not there.
I was think about the so-called Gospel of Thomas. Thomas went to India, and was martyred there. The Indian Christians thought for 300 years they were the only believers on earth.
So how could this "gospel" be from the disciple who died so far away.
With regard to the book of Enoch and your statement Jerry. Perhaps you are referring to the many places in the book of Enoch that tells of the rising and setting of the sun. There is similar language in other writings including that which we commonly refer to as canonical. Here is an example from Ecclesiastes.
Eccl 1:3-6
3 What does man gain from all his labor
at which he toils under the sun?
4 Generations come and generations go,
but the earth remains forever.
5 The sun rises and the sun sets,
and hurries back to where it rises.
6 The wind blows to the south
and turns to the north;
round and round it goes,
ever returning on its course.
NIV
This teaches us about the cyclical nature of all things including the toils of man, history and prophecy. I am confident that the book of Enoch's references to the rising of the sun and moon refer to the same or a similar truth.
I have posted literally pages and pages and pages of material as to why aion is an age with a very long, but limited time period. As I have stated before many of the scriptural usages say clearly an end to the age. They are already on this thread in 2 or more places. Can you find them? Others seem to have.
Here you go Def. No extra charge and thanks for asking. Maybe people need to review this. And thanks for helping me grow in patience.
A few of the usages of "aion" that show "aion" to have an ending are directly below. All English words in quotation marks in the below verses are the word "aion" in the Greek. That is Strong's number 165 for all you bible students.
Matt 13:39-40
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the "world"; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this "world".
KJV
Matt 13:49
49 So shall it be at the end of the "world": the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
KJV
Matt 24:3
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the "world"?
KJV
Matt 28:20
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the "world". Amen.
KJV
1 Cor 2:6
6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this "world", nor of the princes of this "world", that come to nought
KJV
1 Cor 10:11
11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the "world" are come.
KJV
Heb 9:26
26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the "world" hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.KJV
Below we see "aion" having a beginning. This also would indicate that "aion" is not synonymous with eternal or forever.
Luke 1:70
70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the "world" began:
KJV
John 9:32
32 Since "the world began" was it not heard that any man opened the eyes of one that was born blind.
KJV
Acts 3:21
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the "world began".
KJV
Acts 15:18
18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the "world".
KJV
Eph 3:9
9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the "beginning of the world" hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
KJV
Below we see "age" can be a time in the future and thus have a beginning. This also would indicate that it is not synonymous with eternal or forever.
Matt 12:32
32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this "world", neither in the world to come.
KJV
Luke 18:30
30 Who shall not receive manifold more in this present time, and in the "world" to come life everlasting.
KJV
1 Cor 2:7
7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the "world" unto our glory:KJV
Eph 2:7
7 That in the "ages" (for once the King James version translates it correctly) to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.KJV
Heb 6:5
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers "of the world" to come,
KJV
And below we have usages of "aion" which show that it has a present time that is distinct from both the future and the past.
Gal 1:4-5
4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil "world", according to the will of God and our Father:
5 To whom be glory for "ever" and "ever". Amen.
KJV
Eph 1:21
21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this "world", but also in that which is to come:
KJV
2 Tim 4:10
10 For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present "world", and is departed unto Thessalonica; Crescens to Galatia, Titus unto Dalmatia.
What is the attraction to the non-cannonical books anyway? Is it a need to find some hidden truth? Or is the allure of a conspiracy so enticing that is drives us to look for things that are not there.
Do you mean to suggest that people actually do not read the canonical literature to "find hidden truths"? Or that the *allure* of contemplating "conspiracies" is not one also reflected to some degree among even modern Christians, in the idea of a "Satan" or a "devil" out to thwart the righteous Christian walk? You mean that they also are trying to find things that are not there? Jeesh! Incredible when we consider that a many a Christians (as well as adherents of other faiths) actually believe in things they can't even see.
Mark, i know i've mentioned it around here before, but have you ever see an association between "ages" and "Days of the Lord?"
Not a linear thing, but the "day-to-day" results of an ongoing revolutionary process, complete with spiritual evenings and mornings and noons and midnights...
Hi Danny. You brought up an interesting point about Enoch and angels. My recollection is that the angels of the OT were always in human or physical form.
To which I suggested Psalms 104:4/Hebrews ch.1:7, on the form of angels -
quote:
who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire (cf. Acts 2, "tongues of fire...rushing mighty wind") ...(Heb.1:14) Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?
Angels were also considered as having a connection to the "gifts" or "manifestations" in 1 Cor. 12-14, which is one reason Paul brings up in the middle of that discussion, "Though I speak in the tongues of men and of angels", in addition to mentioning the Corinthians' "zeal" for "spirits" (plural Pneumata, 1 Cor.14:12) and the unusual "the spirits of the prophets" being in submission to the prophets, to which I added the possibility that these may have included angels subjected to Christ through His triumph on the cross (cf. Col.2:14).
The idea that "spiritual angels" imparted "knowledge" and "wisdom" and other such "gifts" to their human hosts is one that also can be seen throughout the OT Pseudepigrapha and the writings of the Dea Sea Scrolls.
Such is a brief outline of what I accidently erased last night when I posted this followup:
I wanted to add to the previous post that the notion that angels played some part in the gifts or manifestations of the "Holy Spirit"
appears to have more recent counterparts. Namely, to be observed in the expressions of the charismatic preacher William Branham. It is quite interesting to see the inference to this ancient notion about angels emerge from this charismatic country preacher, who to the best of our knowledge, didn't gather this stuff from articles in scholarly journals; the following are excerpts of these ideas from a website devoted to Branham:
quote:
" He said, "If My Kingdom of this world, I could call many legions of Angels; but My Kingdom is not of this world, but My Kingdom is in heaven." And He said, "The Kingdom of God will be within you." So therefore the legions and powers of the backing of the holy Angels (Hallelujah.) is in you, was born into the Deity of Christ by the baptism of the Holy Ghost." (491225 -The Deity of Jesus Christ).
Do you believe God the Father, you believe in the Son Jesus Christ, you believe in the Holy Spirit? Wonderful. That makes you a Christian.
But in order to get the benefits of this Divine gift, this Angel... May be the same One that was on the water of the pool, I don't know. Maybe It's the same One that was with Paul.
E-45 Somebody said, "Angels wasn't in the New Testament. The Holy Ghost led the Church." That's true. But brother, Angels are always ministering Spirits in every age...
E-22 Our heavenly Father, may Thy Presence come near. O God, may It anoint every person that's in this Divine Presence now. May the power of God saturate this little waiting group here. Men and women setting there, and perspiration running off their face, they're faithful, Lord. Now I ask You, God, knowing that You have to be sovereign to Your Word. You can only heal us as we believe. But if it's possible, Lord, may the Angels of God set at every row, visit up-and-down here tonight, around on this platform, down through this audience. And may every person receive a Divine touch from Him...
Now I... Now, your doctor, he can tell you about your--your body, your anatomy, but I'm here, I... My work is in the realm of spirits. That's where I live a big part of my life, is in another dimension, that the world knows nothing about. And I speak that in the Name of the Lord. They don't understand. There's no need of trying to explain it, no way to explain it. I cannot heal nobody, I never healed a person; I never will heal a person; and no one else ever did. For God said, "I'm the Lord Who heals all thy diseases." (52017E - God Testifying of His Gifts)
William Branham, BTW, seems to have been the one who came up with the idea that "cancer is a devil spirit" which Wierwille had obviously heard at some point in his life.
And according to the last statement, Branham didn't "heal" - the power from his Angel enabled him to do that.
It's interesting to observe old ideas re-emerging from time to time.
You're welcome Jerry, though I must apologize to you and others for somehow writing over my previous post, which laid the groundwork for my observations on William Branham. Now I'm gonna have to do it all over again. But alas, not tonight...
Interesting, Danny. in some traditions, it is maintained that our generic inner logos, if you will, can and does manifest as an outer being, either in a personal vision, or a collective inner vision. Those glowing angelic encounters being a somewhat more explosive component to our inner nature. Even the various depictions of nimbus's (sp?) and radiating countenances and disco-ball clothing among the scriptures have amazing similarities
And so also, often times, such encounters being an obviously higher experience, but not yet highest, there is usually the same mistake made (and so also a useful lesson to be learned) regarding these first "glimpses in the mirror." like mistaking this angelic manifestation as "strictly other." or misunderstanding the experience altogether and starting something cultic or occultic or worse.
example: Christ, as the singularity of which Paul is literally a part (like a branch on a vine), illuminates and resounds within Paul to the point of also manifesting thru and outside of Paul. tho, at first, Paul thinks he has met an "other" and "lord," which in a sense are both partially true (our soul being lord of our body). but Paul is not yet aware of the greater deeper wider higher unity of body and soul and spirit and such, and so it takes him years to sort it out (with help)...as with most angelic encounters (except those records of mere wandering wise saintly people who do very good anonymous deeds and move on without reward...and so they are also often considered divine "otherwordly" beings, which again, is partially true)
As ive mentioned before, perhaps consider the early chapter imagery of the Book of Revelation as, rather than some otherwordly scene, but a more detailed "publication" of the same thing Paul was teaching (but had only recorded a bit more haphazardly...like from prison). But these visions of "John of Patmos" being a much more detailed and much more updated and sophisticated illustration version of our own inner Christ (possibly the result of a late 1st-century collaboration). A brilliant figurative chart of that which is unborn/yet sleeps within us all, if you will.
what im saying...i guess, is that perhaps all these records of angelic beings are simply crude expressions of what turns out to be, like yer getting at...those same manifestions of Christ within. tongues (expressions) of angels (the universal spiritual "strata" within and without). maybe even as crude monolithic jurassic-like manifestations in the earliest ages of human history (like the book of Enoch)
and so now, if so, i think that if we can remove the scriptural racial prejudice of this more perrenial form of wisdom...we might "transcend babylon," if you will. begin to trace and compare the spectrum of spiritual experiences via a universal (and thus, truly Christlike) shape and frequency, rather than limiting to the yoke of simple race and canon.
Did anybody watch the PAX special on the DaVince Code last night? They went through a segment on how the gnostic gospels were written 200 years after the time of the apostles and often by someone who claimed to someone else.
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
27
86
73
57
Popular Days
Jan 25
22
Apr 27
18
Jan 26
17
Jan 24
12
Top Posters In This Topic
TheInvisibleDan 27 posts
def59 86 posts
Mark Sanguinetti 73 posts
CKnapp3 57 posts
Popular Days
Jan 25 2005
22 posts
Apr 27 2005
18 posts
Jan 26 2005
17 posts
Jan 24 2005
12 posts
CM
cool post Danny,
that one was tripping me up for a while
thanks for the help on it!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
TheInvisibleDan
Thank you Sunesis. It's always a pleasure
reading your posts as well.
Last night I was thinking about your post which I cited earlier, and just happened to have one of those "Hey, wait a minute..." moments (in the middle of the night at that) when thinking about those passages in 1 Peter (lol). I had always assumed the same as you - that the "spirits in prison" of 1st Peter were the "angels" described in 2nd Peter - till I re-read the passages.
I think I had gathered this impression more from past teachings I've heard on this (i.e., Earl Burton in his version of the "Intermediate Class" years ago, if I'm recalling correctly).
I don't think there's any question of angels being connected with the flood in 2nd Peter and Enoch. But the passages in 1 Peter raise doubts in my mind -I think in those passages we may not be concerned with the angels who caused the flood, but the "spirits" who were wiped out by it.
That does sound pretty interesting. If you ever recall the title to this work, please let me know.
As if we don't have enough problems down here already (lol).
I went through a whacky phase a few years ago of collecting books on the subject of supposed UFO Crashes. One book, "UFO Crash at Aztec", had a bizarre pic in it of how dinosaurs would have appeared today had they not died out and continued evolving - which of course, resembled those black-eyed "greys" so popular nowadays (lol).
I agree - it is good to keep an open mind, and contemplate the possibilities - and entertaining as well.
That's okay - you're in good company
:)-->
On a final note - Mark: on the authorship of Enoch - at least to me personally, it's a moot point as to whether Enoch can actually be proven to have written this work or not. For that matter, we can't always be absolutely certain that the various writings of the New Testament were actually written by the names to which they are attributed. What interests me more is the actual content of ideas found in such works as Enoch, and how deeply these ideas lived within and influenced the culture from which these writings originated. These extra-canonical writings are immensely invaluable toward helping us understand how people thought in antiquity. I have little doubt that Jesus and "Paul" and "Peter" were familiar with "The Book of Enoch" as well as other works in circulation at the time.
with warmest regards,
Danny
Link to comment
Share on other sites
TheInvisibleDan
It's just my take on it, CM; nothing to be engraven in stone. Of course I could be mistaken; wouldn't be the first time.
Danny
Link to comment
Share on other sites
CM
Yeah...I know...
We each take each others words and build from there. Surely God Himself is the wise master builder. Water boys and girls is all we are. And God gives the increase Himself.
To put into words what we see in our minds is quite the task....
Link to comment
Share on other sites
CM
You know what could happen in reality today will most certainly come into reality one day.
There's no getting around it...
And to say or think that we have to wait for anything or certain things is taking a shot in the dark. Not knowing for sure that...
to be purged by God
passing from death to life
seated in the heavenlies
death destroyed
the final victory over death
could be a reality today...
and maybe not in that order but a short
listing of what Christ accomplished for us
because he certainly did do it for us...
in reality, in person here and now in this age
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mark Sanguinetti
With regard to the book of Enoch. I have a copy I made as a computer file. I have read it in its entirety. I just reviewed some of it. Most of this book is written in the first person as one would write a personal diary with Enoch the chief character. Some is written from the third person with Enoch again the chief character.
I just read that some people think the book of Enoch was written by a Jew and not Enoch himself. Another person said this Jew wrote the book of Enoch perhaps between 150-80 BC. After reading the book of Enoch and noticing both its content and writing style I would have to think that this Jewish person had quite an imagination. I say this with sarcasm. For someone to write such a work without the benefit of previously written text I think is impossible. And I don't think oral tradition would cut it either so as to be able to write such detailed accounts pertaining to specific incidents that occured a few thousand years before his time and without actually having been an eye witness. Again the book of Enoch for the large part was written in first person by someone who says there name was Enoch who actually experienced the incidents described. If a Jewish scribe did write what we have today as the book of Enoch it is more likely that he compiled the written works that were handed down before his time. Either that or this Jew had an incredible imagination and tried to pull off the biggest hoax of his or any day.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
TheSongRemainsTheSame
That is the most quiet and vibration free bike I have ever straddled. In fact~~~ I experienced the Gold Wing when Honda first put them on the road. We use to trade bikes for the day. And I traded my Harley '75 1200 Sportster, which would numb your foot in 50 miles, for a free ride the Honda Gold Wing ~~~ quite a difference~~~ give me a rumble anytime
:D-->~~~
always carry a spare helmet when solo~~~ them long hot pant legs love a ride to the invisible 7/11~~~Rok On
:D-->
The Unmistakable Rumble of~~~
Songster
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Galen
TheSongRemainsTheSame:
I have a Gold-Wing.
"That is the most quiet and vibration free bike I have ever straddled."
They sure are.
And the engine sits so terribly low, laying down flat like that, and the fuel tank being so far down too, the center of gravity is very low. With the roll bars on it, I can lay it down on it's side and nothing touchs the ground. If you stay seated, your legs are still 4 inches off the ground even when the bike is laying on it's side. It's quite I can hear a good deal of nature while driving [if my stereo is off]. :-)
It is hard to imagine that I have owned cars with smaller engines. :-)
"... I traded my Harley '75 1200 Sportster, which would numb your foot in 50 miles,"
I used to carry a hug tool-roll. But over the years, I never did use it for anything on my bike, I was always loaning it out to help all the Hardley guys that I ended up riding alongside of.
A lot of those hardleys you see sitting on the side of the road, man.
I dont carry any tools anymore. I bought this Gold-wing 2 years ago, just as the bike turned 20 years old. Got it for $1,000. It's blue-book value is less than the cost it would be to have a shop do about anything to it. So the first sign of a break-down and it is going to the dump. But that was 10,000 miles ago. I did change the oil, I dont know why, but I did. It just keeps running. It would not surprize me if I get another 100,000 miles out of it.
The guy that I bought it from, really did not ride it much, he never took it for a coast-to-coast run. I have done a bunch of those drives on a couple different Kawasakis that I have had. It is a good drive, about 3 days depending on which highway you use. This Gold-wing though it only had 80,000 miles on it when I got it, very low mileage, for a 20 year old gold-wing. Kawaskis dont hold up the way that Gold-wings do, By the time you get a Kawasaki up to 75,000 or 100,000 miles it is pretty well worn.
:-)
Link to comment
Share on other sites
TheSongRemainsTheSame
Yo Galen,
I took the Beard,Babes,Bikes over to the "OPEN" road and held Mark accountable for asking about your beard.
The Unmistakable Rumble
of a
Songster
Link to comment
Share on other sites
def59
This is what I love about gsc. This thread has taken so many turns and twists. It's gotten so far off course, I don't even know where its at.
Enjoy the trip.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Galen
Aye Aye.
;-)
Link to comment
Share on other sites
TheInvisibleDan
Mark,
There's still much we do not know in regards to the actual process which the writers of this sacred literature underwent. I oft wonder if the methodology of "prophets" in the ancient world was akin to that of the ancient Greek Sybils.
In any event, your questions brought to mind a certain possibility, in view of the belief that Enoch was "translated" by God that he might not see death; if I recall correctly, there's a section in "Enoch" in which is described Enoch's transformation into an angel. I recall Otto Everling discussing this in "Paulinische Angelologie und Damonologie" which I'll have to review again to see if I can relocate this reference.
Consider this: might "Enoch" -now transformed into an angel - be "moving" or inspiring the prophets or writers behind this ancient work?
Angels were oft regarded - especially in the Old Testament literature - as those actual spirits (or "holy spirit(s)") "upon" the prophets. Angels were the source, and the "mediators" between god and man.
Angels were thought to have played a crucial role in the empowerment and execution of the so-called "spiritual gifts" - and indications of this belief can still be seen throughout 1 Cor.12-14, the Qumran ("dead Sea Scroll") literature as well as other extra-canonical works.
Perhaps Enoch -now a spirit-angel - served as the source or mediator for the writers behind the work which bears his name. This is something the writers themselves may have certainly believed.
Danny
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Jbarrax
Hi Danny. You brought up an interesting point about Enoch and angels. My recollection is that the angels of the OT were always in human or physical form. Can you suggest any OT scriptures that indicata angels working in the form of "spirit upon" someone?
And just for discussion; I've read Enoch and didn't find it to be particularly credible. Most canonized books present a fairly consistent worldview or are in line with what we know about basic geology and astronomy. Enoch seems to say that the sun revolves around the earth, which is obviously not factual. Because of this glaring error, I found it hard to believe the details of his ascent through the seven heavens.
Peace
JerryB
Link to comment
Share on other sites
def59
What is the attraction to the non-cannonical books anyway? Is it a need to find some hidden truth? Or is the allure of a conspiracy so enticing that is drives us to look for things that are not there.
I was think about the so-called Gospel of Thomas. Thomas went to India, and was martyred there. The Indian Christians thought for 300 years they were the only believers on earth.
So how could this "gospel" be from the disciple who died so far away.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mark Sanguinetti
With regard to the book of Enoch and your statement Jerry. Perhaps you are referring to the many places in the book of Enoch that tells of the rising and setting of the sun. There is similar language in other writings including that which we commonly refer to as canonical. Here is an example from Ecclesiastes.
Eccl 1:3-6
3 What does man gain from all his labor
at which he toils under the sun?
4 Generations come and generations go,
but the earth remains forever.
5 The sun rises and the sun sets,
and hurries back to where it rises.
6 The wind blows to the south
and turns to the north;
round and round it goes,
ever returning on its course.
NIV
This teaches us about the cyclical nature of all things including the toils of man, history and prophecy. I am confident that the book of Enoch's references to the rising of the sun and moon refer to the same or a similar truth.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
def59
hi Mark
I found a Strongs and I looked all the words you and I argue about and his book backs up the eternal fire scenario, not a limited timeframe.
Can you tell me again how you read differently?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mark Sanguinetti
Def:
I have posted literally pages and pages and pages of material as to why aion is an age with a very long, but limited time period. As I have stated before many of the scriptural usages say clearly an end to the age. They are already on this thread in 2 or more places. Can you find them? Others seem to have.
Here you go Def. No extra charge and thanks for asking. Maybe people need to review this. And thanks for helping me grow in patience.
A few of the usages of "aion" that show "aion" to have an ending are directly below. All English words in quotation marks in the below verses are the word "aion" in the Greek. That is Strong's number 165 for all you bible students.
Matt 13:39-40
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the "world"; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this "world".
KJV
Matt 13:49
49 So shall it be at the end of the "world": the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
KJV
Matt 24:3
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the "world"?
KJV
Matt 28:20
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the "world". Amen.
KJV
1 Cor 2:6
6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this "world", nor of the princes of this "world", that come to nought
KJV
1 Cor 10:11
11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the "world" are come.
KJV
Heb 9:26
26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the "world" hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.KJV
Below we see "aion" having a beginning. This also would indicate that "aion" is not synonymous with eternal or forever.
Luke 1:70
70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the "world" began:
KJV
John 9:32
32 Since "the world began" was it not heard that any man opened the eyes of one that was born blind.
KJV
Acts 3:21
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the "world began".
KJV
Acts 15:18
18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the "world".
KJV
Eph 3:9
9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the "beginning of the world" hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
KJV
Below we see "age" can be a time in the future and thus have a beginning. This also would indicate that it is not synonymous with eternal or forever.
Matt 12:32
32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this "world", neither in the world to come.
KJV
Luke 18:30
30 Who shall not receive manifold more in this present time, and in the "world" to come life everlasting.
KJV
1 Cor 2:7
7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the "world" unto our glory:KJV
Eph 2:7
7 That in the "ages" (for once the King James version translates it correctly) to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.KJV
Heb 6:5
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers "of the world" to come,
KJV
And below we have usages of "aion" which show that it has a present time that is distinct from both the future and the past.
Gal 1:4-5
4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil "world", according to the will of God and our Father:
5 To whom be glory for "ever" and "ever". Amen.
KJV
Eph 1:21
21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this "world", but also in that which is to come:
KJV
2 Tim 4:10
10 For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present "world", and is departed unto Thessalonica; Crescens to Galatia, Titus unto Dalmatia.
KJV
Link to comment
Share on other sites
TheInvisibleDan
Do you mean to suggest that people actually do not read the canonical literature to "find hidden truths"? Or that the *allure* of contemplating "conspiracies" is not one also reflected to some degree among even modern Christians, in the idea of a "Satan" or a "devil" out to thwart the righteous Christian walk? You mean that they also are trying to find things that are not there? Jeesh! Incredible when we consider that a many a Christians (as well as adherents of other faiths) actually believe in things they can't even see.
Danny
Link to comment
Share on other sites
sirguessalot
Mark, i know i've mentioned it around here before, but have you ever see an association between "ages" and "Days of the Lord?"
Not a linear thing, but the "day-to-day" results of an ongoing revolutionary process, complete with spiritual evenings and mornings and noons and midnights...
Link to comment
Share on other sites
TheInvisibleDan
(Recreated lost post, abbreviated version)
Jerry wrote:
To which I suggested Psalms 104:4/Hebrews ch.1:7, on the form of angels -
Angels were also considered as having a connection to the "gifts" or "manifestations" in 1 Cor. 12-14, which is one reason Paul brings up in the middle of that discussion, "Though I speak in the tongues of men and of angels", in addition to mentioning the Corinthians' "zeal" for "spirits" (plural Pneumata, 1 Cor.14:12) and the unusual "the spirits of the prophets" being in submission to the prophets, to which I added the possibility that these may have included angels subjected to Christ through His triumph on the cross (cf. Col.2:14).
The idea that "spiritual angels" imparted "knowledge" and "wisdom" and other such "gifts" to their human hosts is one that also can be seen throughout the OT Pseudepigrapha and the writings of the Dea Sea Scrolls.
Such is a brief outline of what I accidently erased last night when I posted this followup:
I wanted to add to the previous post that the notion that angels played some part in the gifts or manifestations of the "Holy Spirit"
appears to have more recent counterparts. Namely, to be observed in the expressions of the charismatic preacher William Branham. It is quite interesting to see the inference to this ancient notion about angels emerge from this charismatic country preacher, who to the best of our knowledge, didn't gather this stuff from articles in scholarly journals; the following are excerpts of these ideas from a website devoted to Branham:
William Branham, BTW, seems to have been the one who came up with the idea that "cancer is a devil spirit" which Wierwille had obviously heard at some point in his life.
And according to the last statement, Branham didn't "heal" - the power from his Angel enabled him to do that.
It's interesting to observe old ideas re-emerging from time to time.
Danny
Edited by TheInvisibleDanLink to comment
Share on other sites
Jbarrax
Thanks Danny.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
TheInvisibleDan
You're welcome Jerry, though I must apologize to you and others for somehow writing over my previous post, which laid the groundwork for my observations on William Branham. Now I'm gonna have to do it all over again. But alas, not tonight...
Danny
Link to comment
Share on other sites
sirguessalot
Interesting, Danny. in some traditions, it is maintained that our generic inner logos, if you will, can and does manifest as an outer being, either in a personal vision, or a collective inner vision. Those glowing angelic encounters being a somewhat more explosive component to our inner nature. Even the various depictions of nimbus's (sp?) and radiating countenances and disco-ball clothing among the scriptures have amazing similarities
And so also, often times, such encounters being an obviously higher experience, but not yet highest, there is usually the same mistake made (and so also a useful lesson to be learned) regarding these first "glimpses in the mirror." like mistaking this angelic manifestation as "strictly other." or misunderstanding the experience altogether and starting something cultic or occultic or worse.
example: Christ, as the singularity of which Paul is literally a part (like a branch on a vine), illuminates and resounds within Paul to the point of also manifesting thru and outside of Paul. tho, at first, Paul thinks he has met an "other" and "lord," which in a sense are both partially true (our soul being lord of our body). but Paul is not yet aware of the greater deeper wider higher unity of body and soul and spirit and such, and so it takes him years to sort it out (with help)...as with most angelic encounters (except those records of mere wandering wise saintly people who do very good anonymous deeds and move on without reward...and so they are also often considered divine "otherwordly" beings, which again, is partially true)
As ive mentioned before, perhaps consider the early chapter imagery of the Book of Revelation as, rather than some otherwordly scene, but a more detailed "publication" of the same thing Paul was teaching (but had only recorded a bit more haphazardly...like from prison). But these visions of "John of Patmos" being a much more detailed and much more updated and sophisticated illustration version of our own inner Christ (possibly the result of a late 1st-century collaboration). A brilliant figurative chart of that which is unborn/yet sleeps within us all, if you will.
what im saying...i guess, is that perhaps all these records of angelic beings are simply crude expressions of what turns out to be, like yer getting at...those same manifestions of Christ within. tongues (expressions) of angels (the universal spiritual "strata" within and without). maybe even as crude monolithic jurassic-like manifestations in the earliest ages of human history (like the book of Enoch)
and so now, if so, i think that if we can remove the scriptural racial prejudice of this more perrenial form of wisdom...we might "transcend babylon," if you will. begin to trace and compare the spectrum of spiritual experiences via a universal (and thus, truly Christlike) shape and frequency, rather than limiting to the yoke of simple race and canon.
as a commons, lifting the common veil
Link to comment
Share on other sites
def59
Did anybody watch the PAX special on the DaVince Code last night? They went through a segment on how the gnostic gospels were written 200 years after the time of the apostles and often by someone who claimed to someone else.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.