"I "assume" that the lake of fire referred to in Revelation is not something that exists in this age."
Does anyone else here recieve BAR magazine? [biblical Archeological Review]
It maintains a listing of all current archeological digs on-going and is a resource for volunteering to go help. It does reviews of their status and presents storys about things that are being found. Giving greater insight to the daily lives of Israelites during each various 'age's. Many various 'Biblical Characters' and cities have been documented through everything that has been discovered. [personal signet rings from some of the Kings and their courts, letters, Building inscriptions, and even wall graffiti]
During the first millinea A.D. the dead sea is described by traders and explorers as commonly having 'fire' and smoke rising up out of it. BAR describes the drainage ditch that runs off from beside Jerusalem. as flowing into it.
It runs through the Valley of Gah-Henna [it's Greek name] or Vale of Hinnom [it's Hebrew name], the city's trash-dump, where trash was burned and even the bodys of criminals were burned there, their ashes to flow out in the stream through Wadi Jehennum and into the Dead Sea, the sea that visibly showed the smoke rising up out of depths of the earth.
It became an emblem of hell, still commonly called the 'Valley of Fire'.
And is reffered to in 2 Chron 28:3, Jer 7:30-31, 32 and 19:6
1 Kings 9:42-29, 2 Kings 23:10, Isaiah 66:23-24, Matthew 23:23, Mark 9:43-44, and Rev 19:20
:-)
Bonnie's suggestion is that if you find a 'lake of fire' dont swim there.
I "assume" that the lake of fire referred to in Revelation is not something that exists in this age. I assume that you are interpreting as subjective things that most readers interpret as objective. Granted there is much in Revelation that stymies scholars, but I don't agree with the concept that the return of Christ and the judgements spoken of in I Corinthians 15 and Revelations 21 are subjective realities that people experience in their own lifetime. JerryB
But we mustn't overlook the "Preterist" views, which interpret many if not all of the prophetic events described in the NT as having already transpired in history, in both (or either) the physical or spiritual dimensions.
For example, the destruction of Jerusalem circ. 70 AD, prophesied by Jesus in the gospels - viewed by preterists as the "second advent" of the Son of Man. It's a very interesting theory.
Please take my prior posts as to where I was then compared to where I am now. And later posts could come from an even better understanding of it all. And I'll do the same for you.
ok, a brief rant...not picking on ya Jerry, just using your useful arguments to further things...
quote:
But I don't think it is wise to interpret such things as the return of Christ and the judgements to come as purely subjective.
Neither do I, Jerry. But I have even found that a much more inclusive intersubjective approach is even wiser than which you suggest.
quote:
The problem I have with interpreting the lake of fire of Rev 20:15 as something we can experience now is the sequence of events that is presented.
Is it possible that the sequence might also apply to the writers' (and readers') own sequence of unfolding awareness and understanding of the experience?
quote:
It seems pretty clear to me that the final victory over death has not yet occurred. Until that happens, no one can say, imho, that they have been cast into the lake of fire.
Of course this would seem clear to you. Especially if you have never experienced much of the sort of thing that the Bible folks were writing of...what else could you believe? Most all your hope is still in the future, no?
quote:
You may be purged by God, a process of which Jesus spoke (John 15:2), but, as unpleasant a process as this may be, I wouldn't equate it with being cast into the hellfire.
I would. Which is why the path is narrow. Our mortallity always flinches and hides from things like pain and darkness and death. Inwardly as much as outwardly. We must learn to burn bright in the darkest places, no?
if we seek...
a flaming sword that turns every way
a burning bush that is not consumed
a baptism of fire...
...that daystar will indeed arise in our hearts and burn our mortal sense of self to dust. We will no longer identify with body and mind alone, but something greater. Spirit is no longer a figure of speech but that face we finally see in the mirror. Just as our physical birth, our new birth is an unfolding of many parts and stages. All that we manifest outwardly is based on this state of being, and whatever it is that is our deepest level of identification.
And theoretically, i guess, if this would to happen within most everyone in the world...well, we'd have an outer manifestation of the inner Christ most everywhere at once. I mean, who needs a man in a white cape on a flying horse to slay all the ten-headed dragons when humanity itself is finally and simply learning to be what that guy demonstrated?
A better view of that same old burning I AMness..the one that blocks us from getting "back to Eden..."
ok, a suggestion to float...
An inner individidual interpretation of scriptural figures, including past present and future expressions.
An outer individual interpretation of scriptural figures, including past present and future expressions.
An outer collective interpretation of scriptural figures, including past present and future expressions.
An inner collective interpretation of scriptural figures, including past present and future expressions.
...especially with regard to the huge figurative murals of visual language like the Bible's famous Book of Revelation (which was most likely written with this many-fold frame in mind).
And i think one of the main differences between many traditional approaches and what i've suggested, is much like the difference between water baptism and fire baptism.
One cleans what's there.
The other simply vaporizes it.
Both have their place, imo.
But with obviously very different levels of results.
You guys are bringing up some good points for consideration. The bible talks about being chastened of the Lord in Hebrews. God does this now so that we may partake of His holiness and righteousness both now and in the next age.
Heb 12:5-11
5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.
KJV
Heb 12:5-11
5 Have you forgotten the encouraging words which God speaks to you as his sons?
"My son, pay attention when the Lord corrects you,and do not be discouraged when he rebukes you. 6 Because the Lord corrects everyone he loves,and punishes everyone he accepts as a son."
7 Endure what you suffer as being a father's punishment; your suffering shows that God is treating you as his sons. Was there ever a son who was not punished by his father? 8 If you are not punished, as all his sons are, it means you are not real sons, but bastards. 9 In the case of our human fathers, they punished us and we respected them. How much more, then, should we submit to our spiritual Father and live! 10 Our human fathers punished us for a short time, as it seemed right to them; but God does it for our own good, so that we may share his holiness. 11 When we are punished, it seems to us at the time something to make us sad, not glad. Later, however, those who have been disciplined by such punishment reap the peaceful reward of a righteous life.
TEV
For the unbelievers who do not know God they will not be chastened in the same way that you and I are now. However, they too will not be without chastening if they are to also partake of God's holiness and receive eternal life. This is what I believe the lake of fire is about. The unbelievers will be judged, then they go into the lake of fire for there own version of chastening. I am not sure what that will all entail, but some of them I imagine will be there for a very long time. According to God's law the year of Jubilee occurs in the 49th year. With this all debts are forgiven. For the man of sin who knows not Christ as his Lord sin is a form of debt that they too will finally be forgiven of at the end of the age of the lake and fire. For your consideration I offer the following parable pertaining to the Kingdom of heaven and the importance of forgiveness.
Matt 18:23-35
23 "Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24 As he began the settlement, a man who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him. 25 Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered that he and his wife and his children and all that he had be sold to repay the debt.
26 "The servant fell on his knees before him. 'Be patient with me,' he begged, 'and I will pay back everything.' 27 The servant's master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go.
28 "But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii. He grabbed him and began to choke him. 'Pay back what you owe me!' he demanded.
29 "His fellow servant fell to his knees and begged him, 'Be patient with me, and I will pay you back.'
30 "But he refused. Instead, he went off and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay the debt. 31 When the other servants saw what had happened, they were greatly distressed and went and told their master everything that had happened.
32 "Then the master called the servant in. 'You wicked servant,' he said, 'I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. 33 Shouldn't you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?' 34 In anger his master turned him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed. 35 "This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart."
Well, I will respond now. I think a number of people are making some good points and learning some new things from God's word. Also a number of people seem to be enjoying it. I even heard from one of my college room mates who has not posted here, but says he is following this thread with interest. I think even Def59, who started this thread, is enjoying it.
In order for God to judge man. He has to use the law. Unfortunately, the application of the law that we see today is either very pharisaical or lawless (without law). This is often the case in Christian circles. They, especially so called Christian leaders, can be very pharisaical with their interpretation of the law. Jesus ran into those types quite a bit in his earthly ministry and used to get a kick out making them look stupid. Christians can also go to the other extreme and be lawless saying that one does not have to follow the law at all. Some how, they say, Jesus did away with it. Actually, Jesus did not do away with the law. He fullfilled it and changed the application for you and I. Instead of the priests sacrificing animals constantly. He was the sacrifice once and for all. Instead of purification by blood or water, we are made pure by the blood and water that came out of Jesus' side at the cross. Instead of going to the temple, God now inhabits our bodies as Temples of the holy spirit. In each of these cases, we do not violate the law, we merely fulfill its requirements in a different and better manner thanks to the new covenant through Jesus Christ. It is basically the same law, but a different application thereof. Shall we apply the law like the pharisees did in Jesus' time? Or should we apply the law with grace and truth like Jesus did in his earthly ministry?
The law is still the basis for God's jugement of man. Romans 4:15 says,
Rom 4:15
15 because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression.
NKJV
Without this law there is no judgement of man. This is the yardstick for the great white throne judgement written of in the final part of the book of Revelation. This is the basis for God's judgement of the sins of all of mankind and not just for those who call on the name of Jesus Christ. Again shall we expect God to judge man with his law and apply it like a pharisee? Or do we expect God to judge man using his law like Jesus his only begotten Son would with grace and truth?
This reminds me. The foundation of all grace is the law of jubilee. This law says that in the 50th year all debts are to be forgiven.
Lev 25:10
10 Consecrate the fiftieth year and proclaim liberty throughout the land to all its inhabitants. It shall be a jubilee for you; each one of you is to return to his family property and each to his own clan.
NIV
This is what I base the reconciliation of all men to God on. According to this law which you can read about in Leviticus chapter 25, a man who has a debt and has to work as a bond servant to pay it off can be redeemed by a next of kin. For believers in Jesus Christ, Jesus is our next of kin who pays off our debt of sin so that we may be redeemed from what we owe. What then of those who do not believe in Jesus and have no next of kin to pay back their debt? They too will be set free from their debt at the end of time for Leviticus 25:54 reads,
Lev 25:54
54 "'Even if he is not redeemed in any of these ways, he and his children are to be released in the Year of Jubilee,
NIV
Again the redempion of man is based on God's law. I know this teaching of the law is likely to be different than what we previously have known. Much of this knowledge has either been neglected or offered like a pharisee would teach it in Jesus' day. However, try reading the 25th chapter of Leviticus for yourself with the above in mind. Ask yourself how the spirit of this law might be applied at God's great and final judgement spoken of in the book of Revelation.
Leviticus 25: 1-55
1 The Lord spoke to Moses on Mount Sinai and commanded him 2 to give the following regulations to the people of Israel. When you enter the land that the LORD is giving you, you shall honor the LORD by not cultivating the land every seventh year. 3 You shall plant your fields, prune your vineyards, and gather your crops for six years. 4 But the seventh year is to be a year of complete rest for the land, a year dedicated to the LORD. Do not plant your fields or prune your vineyards. 5 Do not even harvest the grain that grows by itself without being planted, and do not gather the grapes from your unpruned vines; it is a year of complete rest for the land. 6 Although the land has not been cultivated during that year, it will provide food for you, your slaves, your hired men, the foreigners living with you, 7 your domestic animals, and the wild animals in your fields. Everything that it produces may be eaten.
The Year of Restoration
8 Count seven times seven years, a total of forty-nine years. 9 Then, on the tenth day of the seventh month, the Day of Atonement, send a man to blow a trumpet throughout the whole land. 10 In this way you shall set the fiftieth year apart and proclaim freedom to all the inhabitants of the land. During this year all property that has been sold shall be restored to the original owner or his descendants, and anyone who has been sold as a slave shall return to his family. 11 You shall not plant your fields or harvest the grain that grows by itself or gather the grapes in your unpruned vineyards. 12 The whole year shall be sacred for you; you shall eat only what the fields produce of themselves.
13 In this year all property that has been sold shall be restored to its original owner. 14 So when you sell land to your fellow Israelite or buy land from him, do not deal unfairly. 15 The price is to be set according to the number of years the land can produce crops before the next Year of Restoration. 16 If there are many years, the price shall be higher, but if there are only a few years, the price shall be lower, because what is being sold is the number of crops the land can produce. 17 Do not cheat a fellow Israelite, but obey the LORD your God.
The Problem of the Seventh Year
18 Obey all the LORD's laws and commands, so that you may live in safety in the land. 19 The land will produce its crops, and you will have all you want to eat and will live in safety.
20 But someone may ask what there will be to eat during the seventh year, when no fields are planted and no crops gathered. 21 The LORD will bless the land in the sixth year so that it will produce enough food for two years. 22 When you plant your fields in the eighth year, you will still be eating what you harvested during the sixth year, and you will have enough to eat until the crops you plant that year are harvested.
Restoration of Property
23 Your land must not be sold on a permanent basis, because you do not own it; it belongs to God, and you are like foreigners who are allowed to make use of it.
24 When land is sold, the right of the original owner to buy it back must be recognized. 25 If an Israelite becomes poor and is forced to sell his land, his closest relative is to buy it back. 26 A man who has no relative to buy it back may later become prosperous and have enough to buy it back himself. 27 In that case he must pay to the man who bought it a sum that will make up for the years remaining until the next Year of Restoration, when he would in any event recover his land. 28 But if he does not have enough money to buy the land back, it remains under the control of the man who bought it until the next Year of Restoration. In that year it will be returned to its original owner.
29 If a man sells a house in a walled city, he has the right to buy it back during the first full year from the date of sale. 30 But if he does not buy it back within the year, he loses the right of repurchase, and the house becomes the permanent property of the purchaser and his descendants; it will not be returned in the Year of Restoration. 31 But houses in unwalled villages are to be treated like fields; the original owner has the right to buy them back, and they are to be returned in the Year of Restoration. 32 However, Levites have the right to buy back at any time their property in the cities assigned to them. 33 If a house in one of these cities is sold by a Levite and is not bought back, it must be returned in the Year of Restoration, because the houses which the Levites own in their cities are their permanent property among the people of Israel. 34 But the pasture land around the Levite cities shall never be sold; it is their property forever.
Loans to the Poor
35 If a fellow Israelite living near you becomes poor and cannot support himself, you must provide for him as you would for a hired man, so that he can continue to live near you. 36 Do not charge him any interest, but obey God and let your fellow Israelite live near you. 37 Do not make him pay interest on the money you lend him, and do not make a profit on the food you sell him. 38 This is the command of the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt in order to give you the land of Canaan and to be your God.
Release of Slaves
39 If a fellow Israelite living near you becomes so poor that he sells himself to you as a slave, you shall not make him do the work of a slave. 40 He shall stay with you as a hired man and serve you until the next Year of Restoration. 41 At that time he and his children shall leave you and return to his family and to the property of his ancestors. 42 The people of Israel are the LORD's slaves, and he brought them out of Egypt; they must not be sold into slavery. 43 Do not treat them harshly, but obey your God. 44 If you need slaves, you may buy them from the nations around you. 45 You may also buy the children of the foreigners who are living among you. Such children born in your land may become your property, 46 and you may leave them as an inheritance to your sons, whom they must serve as long as they live. But you must not treat any of your fellow Israelites harshly.
47 Suppose a foreigner living with you becomes rich, while a fellow Israelite becomes poor and sells himself as a slave to that foreigner or to a member of his family. 48 After he is sold, he still has the right to be bought back. One of his brothers 49 or his uncle or his cousin or another of his close relatives may buy him back; or if he himself earns enough, he may buy his own freedom. 50 He must consult the one who bought him, and they must count the years from the time he sold himself until the next Year of Restoration and must set the price for his release on the basis of the wages paid a hired man. 51 He must refund a part of the purchase price according to the number of years left, 53 as if he had been hired on an annual basis. His master must not treat him harshly. 54 If he is not set free in any of these ways, he and his children must be set free in the next Year of Restoration. 55 An Israelite cannot be a permanent slave, because the people of Israel are the LORD's slaves. He brought them out of Egypt; he is the LORD their God.
A valiant effort to put into black and white, Mark. Certainly quite a task.
I think He'll go after the root of the problems though. In other words, the old testament Law was there to deal with people in more of a control your mind type thing for then. (Not saying mind control) Because of the consequences that would happen then and in the future.
Christ is the end of the Law for all. New and old testament people. But there has to be a standard in which to purify a soul. And rid of our selves of all this crap that will not be needed or wanted in the New Heavens and Earth.
Luke 3:9 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: every tree therefore which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Like I mentioned I believe he will go after the root of the problems in each of us. And we each are going to see it happen in our own lives. Hell for some, more hell for others, and even less for others.
As Hebrews says-God deals with us as sons. Each individual will be dealt with on their own merits. And He does know how to handle a heart without breaking it.
If you take the scriptures alone and try to figure it out, I doubt if anyone can come up with exactly how God will handle it. A book cannot contain it all.
But speaking of the book. Here's a quick class on interpreting the bible.
Genesis 40:8b And Joseph said unto them, Do not interpretations belong to God?
Ok-class over. :D-->
It's in God's hands to show us the interpretation of His words. So much of it is hidden in plain sight.
Proverbs 1:1 The proverbs of Solomon the son of David, king of Israel; 2 To know wisdom and instruction; to perceive the words of understanding; 3 To receive the instruction of wisdom, justice, and judgment, and equity; 4 To give subtilty to the simple, to the young man knowledge and discretion. 5 A wise man will hear, and will increase learning; and a man of understanding shall attain unto wise counsels: 6 To understand a proverb, and the interpretation; the words of the wise, and their dark sayings.
Class over...but continues each day......
no membership required...don't have to belong to any religion
The lake is for those who will perish (satan, the sons of perdition, etc.). I must ask myself, who are those Not written in the book of life, who will perish?
Who are those tares who have grown with the wheat that Christ will destroy at the end, who are these tares destined for the lake? Who is the seed of iron that has mingled with clay (mankind)? The seed of iron is destined for the lake.
It it these ones (the tares, the seed of iron) whose names will not be found written in the book of life, who will perish. They are the ones spoken of in Isaiah, who are rapha - dead, they have no soul and no resurrection.
Yes, there will a cleaning fire that will annihilate all evil, but I do not believe it is for mankind. It is for those whose seed not of God or humankind - it is for those who have "mingled" with the clay (humankind), who will be winnowed out at the end.
Average Joe sinner is not spending eternity in the lake of fire.
If the punishment for sin was being in Hell, or the lake of fire or whereever it is, for an eternity, than Christ would still be there paying for our sins. We could not have had a redeemer because he would have had to paid for an eternity for our sins, if that is the penalty for sinners. We would all still be dead in sins for eternity.
Some good points CM and Sunesis. As you might have read CM from one of my previous posts, I too see the significance of good fruit and God teaching us through his holy spirit. So I would say we are on the same page.
Sunesis, you bring up some often over looked scripture. Do you have some scriptural references for us to examine? Do you have software where you can quickly paste them to this forum thread? And can you add some of your commentary on these scriptures? It sounds like you are refering to the angels who cohabitated with women and produced the demon/human offspring that brought great evil to the earth and got destroyed in the flood. I see the possibilities of this actually having occured, but wanted to hear your views on this and how this ties in with this general discussion.
Hi Mark and CM. Yes, I am talking about Nephilim. At first I thought it was nuts, but there seems to be a general awakening in Christianity, so to speak, about them. I think maybe because Jesus said, when asked what it will be like in the last days, he said in Luke 17:26: And as it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of Man. He said this when asked what people should be looking for in the last days.
Noah was rescued because he was perfect, i.e., not morally, but he was a descendant of Adam and the only man who's bloodline had not been corrupted by Nephilim intermingling with mankind. Thus, the need for a flood.
Why was this intermingling done? Because Satan knew the Messiah was coming through Adam's bloodline. Thus, if you can corrupt the bloodline, there could be no Saviour, then this world would be perpetually his.
Anyway, some verses of why I think you still have seed floating around today. Gen 6:4: There were Nephilim in the earth in those days (Noah's days); and also AFTER THAT (after the flood), ... So, after the flood there was a second, smaller, irruption of these fallen angels. This became the nation of Canaan. That's why God was always telling Israel to kill all these tribes and not mingle with them. I used to think we were dealing with a genocidal God here - now it makes sense.
In Isa. 26:4 the Rephaim (same seed) have no resurrection - they are deceased - dead. Isa. references several places they, even though living, are called "dead" - not in the sense we know it, more as, they have no soul, they are hybred, there is no resurrection for them - just death (i.e., not written in the book of life). Their offsprings' massive strength is seen in some of the monuments still standing today.
For more info, see Bullinger's Appendix 25 from the Companion Bible.
As for the mingling part: See Daniel 2, he has the dream regarding the "miry clay" (mankind). "And whereas thou sawest iron (nephilim seed) mixed with miry clan (man), THEY SHALL MINGLE THEMSELVES WITH THE SEED OF MEN; but they shall not cleave one to another (i.e., they won't like each other, will be at odds), even as iron is not mixed with clay.
Israel failed in its charge by God to rid and destroy the remaining seed of nephilim in the tribes, thus, I believe we see this seed in action today and throughout history. Men who do acts that are so far beyond human comprehension - whether its a Hitler or a Dahmer.
I think that's why the Tares (nephilim seed) can only be winnowed out by Christ. Humankind will be saved - the promise was to all.
Why did Christ preach to the spirits in prison? Who were they? Those were the angels who impregnanted the women they wanted. To show them, look here, you lost. Remember, their offense was so heinous, they were not thrown out of their habitation, but they left it willingly, to cohabit with humankind, that God had no recourse but to destroy the world that was. This is amazing.
We are told in Revelation the next cleansing with God will be as by Fire.
When you see this, the Word makes so much more sense.
There's perhaps no better work on this idea of angels cohabitating with humans than the Book of Enoch, as well as the Book of Jubilees, which have been brought up from time to time.
Therein one will encounter many of the same ideas encountered by (and drawn from) the NT writers themselves.
Absolutely Danny. If the book of Enoch was in fact written by Enoch himself. Then who better to corraborate this than Enoch who would have lived through this and been an eye witness of this pre flood time period. Actually, Enoch is the foundation for this knowledge of demon/angels cohabitation. The other biblical writers making reference learned this from reading Enoch. And this should be clear because Jude quotes Enoch in his epistle and the book of Genesis corraborates Enoch's testimony.
Why did Christ preach to the spirits in prison? Who were they? Those were the angels who impregnanted the women they wanted. To show them, look here, you lost.
Sunesis-
I beg to differ on the interpretation of this passage
in 1 Peter 3:19, which we were led to believe refers to the "spirits" of angels who caused the flood, or their giant progeny:
quote:
KJV
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
Vulgate
18 ¶ Because Christ also died once for our sins, the just for the unjust: that he might offer us to God, being put to death indeed in the flesh, but enlivened in the spirit,
19 In which also coming he preached to those spirits that were in prison:
20 Which had been some time incredulous, when they waited for the patience of God in the days of Noe, when the ark was a building: wherein a few, that is, eight souls, were saved by water.
Syriac Pe****ta (Murdock)
19 And he preached to those souls, which were detained in Hades,
20 which were formerly disobedient, in the days of Noah, when the long suffering of God commanded an ark to be made, in hope of their repentance; and eight souls only entered into it, and were kept alive in the waters.
21 ¶ And ye also, by a like figure, are made alive by baptism
Without filtering these passages through Bullinger or Wierwille's "Are-the-Dead-Alive-No-They're-Not" - which we all here have been so accustomed - or re-reading ideas from 2nd Peter back into this section here - you may be as surprised as I...
1.)Christ preached to spirits [or "souls"] in prison [or "hades"]. BUllinger makes much ado about "preach" here being a proclamation of "triumph". Well, breaking down the gates of Hades to liberate the captive spirits or souls from death's "prison" was quite a triumphant story among early Christians. That's how many interpreted, "leading captivity captive" (as sometimes rendered "he led a train of prisoners...) -Eph.4.
2.) In verse 18, "Christ died for the unjust" - even for those "unbelieving" "spirits" who, while in the flesh, laughed at Noah when he was building his ark.And then again, perhaps some folks missed their opportunity to get on board along with the unicorns.
3.) In any event, these passages seemed to be concerned not with the angels who caused the flood - but with the spirits of all humanity which became wiped out by the flood.
This possibility gains much strength when reading just a little further (1 Peter 4:6), which there I don't think the writer intended figuratively (i.e., Eph.2):
quote:
6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead , that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
Besides, let us ask ourselves - how much respect can we really maintain for one who tells us on the one hand to "love your enemies" - while on the other - he descends into hell and gloats at miserable spirits in chains of darkness?
That may sound like a former president of twi - or perhaps even those who mocked the Lord on the cross - but that sure as hell sounds nothing like Jesus to me. I do not think it's in His nature to do that. But even I should be incorrect in the identity of the "spirits" in question, then I trust Jesus' preaching to them would have toward their salvation.
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Jbarrax:
"I "assume" that the lake of fire referred to in Revelation is not something that exists in this age."
Does anyone else here recieve BAR magazine? [biblical Archeological Review]
It maintains a listing of all current archeological digs on-going and is a resource for volunteering to go help. It does reviews of their status and presents storys about things that are being found. Giving greater insight to the daily lives of Israelites during each various 'age's. Many various 'Biblical Characters' and cities have been documented through everything that has been discovered. [personal signet rings from some of the Kings and their courts, letters, Building inscriptions, and even wall graffiti]
During the first millinea A.D. the dead sea is described by traders and explorers as commonly having 'fire' and smoke rising up out of it. BAR describes the drainage ditch that runs off from beside Jerusalem. as flowing into it.
It runs through the Valley of Gah-Henna [it's Greek name] or Vale of Hinnom [it's Hebrew name], the city's trash-dump, where trash was burned and even the bodys of criminals were burned there, their ashes to flow out in the stream through Wadi Jehennum and into the Dead Sea, the sea that visibly showed the smoke rising up out of depths of the earth.
It became an emblem of hell, still commonly called the 'Valley of Fire'.
And is reffered to in 2 Chron 28:3, Jer 7:30-31, 32 and 19:6
1 Kings 9:42-29, 2 Kings 23:10, Isaiah 66:23-24, Matthew 23:23, Mark 9:43-44, and Rev 19:20
:-)
Bonnie's suggestion is that if you find a 'lake of fire' dont swim there.
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TheInvisibleDan
But we mustn't overlook the "Preterist" views, which interpret many if not all of the prophetic events described in the NT as having already transpired in history, in both (or either) the physical or spiritual dimensions.
For example, the destruction of Jerusalem circ. 70 AD, prophesied by Jesus in the gospels - viewed by preterists as the "second advent" of the Son of Man. It's a very interesting theory.
Cool post on the "lake of fire", Galen.
Danny
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Jbarrax
Okay. Sounds like a good idea to me CM.
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sirguessalot
ok, a brief rant...not picking on ya Jerry, just using your useful arguments to further things...
Neither do I, Jerry. But I have even found that a much more inclusive intersubjective approach is even wiser than which you suggest. Is it possible that the sequence might also apply to the writers' (and readers') own sequence of unfolding awareness and understanding of the experience? Of course this would seem clear to you. Especially if you have never experienced much of the sort of thing that the Bible folks were writing of...what else could you believe? Most all your hope is still in the future, no?I would. Which is why the path is narrow. Our mortallity always flinches and hides from things like pain and darkness and death. Inwardly as much as outwardly. We must learn to burn bright in the darkest places, no?
if we seek...
a flaming sword that turns every way
a burning bush that is not consumed
a baptism of fire...
...that daystar will indeed arise in our hearts and burn our mortal sense of self to dust. We will no longer identify with body and mind alone, but something greater. Spirit is no longer a figure of speech but that face we finally see in the mirror. Just as our physical birth, our new birth is an unfolding of many parts and stages. All that we manifest outwardly is based on this state of being, and whatever it is that is our deepest level of identification.
And theoretically, i guess, if this would to happen within most everyone in the world...well, we'd have an outer manifestation of the inner Christ most everywhere at once. I mean, who needs a man in a white cape on a flying horse to slay all the ten-headed dragons when humanity itself is finally and simply learning to be what that guy demonstrated?
A better view of that same old burning I AMness..the one that blocks us from getting "back to Eden..."
ok, a suggestion to float...
An inner individidual interpretation of scriptural figures, including past present and future expressions.
An outer individual interpretation of scriptural figures, including past present and future expressions.
An outer collective interpretation of scriptural figures, including past present and future expressions.
An inner collective interpretation of scriptural figures, including past present and future expressions.
...especially with regard to the huge figurative murals of visual language like the Bible's famous Book of Revelation (which was most likely written with this many-fold frame in mind).
Just be sure to take off yer shoes, i guess...
;)-->
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sirguessalot
And i think one of the main differences between many traditional approaches and what i've suggested, is much like the difference between water baptism and fire baptism.
One cleans what's there.
The other simply vaporizes it.
Both have their place, imo.
But with obviously very different levels of results.
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TheInvisibleDan
We will all walk through the fires,
to emerge out of the Creator's furnace
with our souls purified.
Everything belonging to the old will pass away,
Behold - everything has become new.
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sirguessalot
from moment to moment to moment
breath to breath to breath
as the eye flickers
so does it all
is this not the book of life?
just this, as it is?
naked and holy from page to page to page
in every season and cycle
in every stage of the game
start here
stand here first
sit here first
then unfold
fertile ground of being
the rise and the fall
oceanic depth
just as it is
eternally now
eternally new
is this not the way?
the burning tree?
the holy trinity?
the tao?
everpresent
even in our sleep
wide open space
this, we can rely upon
all else rises from here
all else is seen and felt and heard from here
mysteriously somehow
is this not universal?
is this not a holy book?
holy clarity
blessed be
amen
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Mark Sanguinetti
You guys are bringing up some good points for consideration. The bible talks about being chastened of the Lord in Hebrews. God does this now so that we may partake of His holiness and righteousness both now and in the next age.
Heb 12:5-11
5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.
KJV
Heb 12:5-11
5 Have you forgotten the encouraging words which God speaks to you as his sons?
"My son, pay attention when the Lord corrects you,and do not be discouraged when he rebukes you. 6 Because the Lord corrects everyone he loves,and punishes everyone he accepts as a son."
7 Endure what you suffer as being a father's punishment; your suffering shows that God is treating you as his sons. Was there ever a son who was not punished by his father? 8 If you are not punished, as all his sons are, it means you are not real sons, but bastards. 9 In the case of our human fathers, they punished us and we respected them. How much more, then, should we submit to our spiritual Father and live! 10 Our human fathers punished us for a short time, as it seemed right to them; but God does it for our own good, so that we may share his holiness. 11 When we are punished, it seems to us at the time something to make us sad, not glad. Later, however, those who have been disciplined by such punishment reap the peaceful reward of a righteous life.
TEV
For the unbelievers who do not know God they will not be chastened in the same way that you and I are now. However, they too will not be without chastening if they are to also partake of God's holiness and receive eternal life. This is what I believe the lake of fire is about. The unbelievers will be judged, then they go into the lake of fire for there own version of chastening. I am not sure what that will all entail, but some of them I imagine will be there for a very long time. According to God's law the year of Jubilee occurs in the 49th year. With this all debts are forgiven. For the man of sin who knows not Christ as his Lord sin is a form of debt that they too will finally be forgiven of at the end of the age of the lake and fire. For your consideration I offer the following parable pertaining to the Kingdom of heaven and the importance of forgiveness.
Matt 18:23-35
23 "Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24 As he began the settlement, a man who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him. 25 Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered that he and his wife and his children and all that he had be sold to repay the debt.
26 "The servant fell on his knees before him. 'Be patient with me,' he begged, 'and I will pay back everything.' 27 The servant's master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go.
28 "But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii. He grabbed him and began to choke him. 'Pay back what you owe me!' he demanded.
29 "His fellow servant fell to his knees and begged him, 'Be patient with me, and I will pay you back.'
30 "But he refused. Instead, he went off and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay the debt. 31 When the other servants saw what had happened, they were greatly distressed and went and told their master everything that had happened.
32 "Then the master called the servant in. 'You wicked servant,' he said, 'I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. 33 Shouldn't you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?' 34 In anger his master turned him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed. 35 "This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart."
NIV
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def59
Sixteen pages and 300+ responses.
This has been a fun thread.
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CM
the chastening of the Lord
God dealeth with you as with sons
the encouraging words which God speaks to you as his sons
Because the Lord corrects everyone he loves,and punishes everyone he accepts as a son
your suffering shows that God is treating you as his sons
but God does it for our own good, so that we may share his holiness
--
Kind of takes the human element out of it don't it.
In other words-it's coming from God to the person.
Not from a person to a person.
It really is in God's hands.
This is why we must be sure when we speak.
And people make mistakes.
But God does not.
Also if God was to correct us constantly,
we would go insane probably.
But people take it into their own hands to chastise.
When they do they are holding that
person's heart in their hands.
God knows how to handle a heart,
we must go with it as He directs from within.
Take raising children for instance as Hebrews does.
This IS where love has to be the Hottest of all.
The nurture and admonition of the Lord.
Love has to lead the way, otherwise you will break
that person and end any good coming out of it.
"so that we may share his holiness"
isn't this the good?
isn't this the point?
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CM
It's in the Master's hands to do this.
And it doesn't say what the torture is.
And there is an end to it
"until he should pay back all he owed"
All he owed is also in the Master's hands.
Let's try not to guess at who owes what.
That's an endless debate.
But God knows.....
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def59
I will respond to everyone's points. I am working the book in my "on a new tangent" thread.
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Mark Sanguinetti
Well, I will respond now. I think a number of people are making some good points and learning some new things from God's word. Also a number of people seem to be enjoying it. I even heard from one of my college room mates who has not posted here, but says he is following this thread with interest. I think even Def59, who started this thread, is enjoying it.
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CM
Would love to hear your room-mates thoughts Mark. And yours as well.
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Mark Sanguinetti
In order for God to judge man. He has to use the law. Unfortunately, the application of the law that we see today is either very pharisaical or lawless (without law). This is often the case in Christian circles. They, especially so called Christian leaders, can be very pharisaical with their interpretation of the law. Jesus ran into those types quite a bit in his earthly ministry and used to get a kick out making them look stupid. Christians can also go to the other extreme and be lawless saying that one does not have to follow the law at all. Some how, they say, Jesus did away with it. Actually, Jesus did not do away with the law. He fullfilled it and changed the application for you and I. Instead of the priests sacrificing animals constantly. He was the sacrifice once and for all. Instead of purification by blood or water, we are made pure by the blood and water that came out of Jesus' side at the cross. Instead of going to the temple, God now inhabits our bodies as Temples of the holy spirit. In each of these cases, we do not violate the law, we merely fulfill its requirements in a different and better manner thanks to the new covenant through Jesus Christ. It is basically the same law, but a different application thereof. Shall we apply the law like the pharisees did in Jesus' time? Or should we apply the law with grace and truth like Jesus did in his earthly ministry?
The law is still the basis for God's jugement of man. Romans 4:15 says,
Rom 4:15
15 because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression.
NKJV
Without this law there is no judgement of man. This is the yardstick for the great white throne judgement written of in the final part of the book of Revelation. This is the basis for God's judgement of the sins of all of mankind and not just for those who call on the name of Jesus Christ. Again shall we expect God to judge man with his law and apply it like a pharisee? Or do we expect God to judge man using his law like Jesus his only begotten Son would with grace and truth?
This reminds me. The foundation of all grace is the law of jubilee. This law says that in the 50th year all debts are to be forgiven.
Lev 25:10
10 Consecrate the fiftieth year and proclaim liberty throughout the land to all its inhabitants. It shall be a jubilee for you; each one of you is to return to his family property and each to his own clan.
NIV
This is what I base the reconciliation of all men to God on. According to this law which you can read about in Leviticus chapter 25, a man who has a debt and has to work as a bond servant to pay it off can be redeemed by a next of kin. For believers in Jesus Christ, Jesus is our next of kin who pays off our debt of sin so that we may be redeemed from what we owe. What then of those who do not believe in Jesus and have no next of kin to pay back their debt? They too will be set free from their debt at the end of time for Leviticus 25:54 reads,
Lev 25:54
54 "'Even if he is not redeemed in any of these ways, he and his children are to be released in the Year of Jubilee,
NIV
Again the redempion of man is based on God's law. I know this teaching of the law is likely to be different than what we previously have known. Much of this knowledge has either been neglected or offered like a pharisee would teach it in Jesus' day. However, try reading the 25th chapter of Leviticus for yourself with the above in mind. Ask yourself how the spirit of this law might be applied at God's great and final judgement spoken of in the book of Revelation.
Leviticus 25: 1-55
1 The Lord spoke to Moses on Mount Sinai and commanded him 2 to give the following regulations to the people of Israel. When you enter the land that the LORD is giving you, you shall honor the LORD by not cultivating the land every seventh year. 3 You shall plant your fields, prune your vineyards, and gather your crops for six years. 4 But the seventh year is to be a year of complete rest for the land, a year dedicated to the LORD. Do not plant your fields or prune your vineyards. 5 Do not even harvest the grain that grows by itself without being planted, and do not gather the grapes from your unpruned vines; it is a year of complete rest for the land. 6 Although the land has not been cultivated during that year, it will provide food for you, your slaves, your hired men, the foreigners living with you, 7 your domestic animals, and the wild animals in your fields. Everything that it produces may be eaten.
The Year of Restoration
8 Count seven times seven years, a total of forty-nine years. 9 Then, on the tenth day of the seventh month, the Day of Atonement, send a man to blow a trumpet throughout the whole land. 10 In this way you shall set the fiftieth year apart and proclaim freedom to all the inhabitants of the land. During this year all property that has been sold shall be restored to the original owner or his descendants, and anyone who has been sold as a slave shall return to his family. 11 You shall not plant your fields or harvest the grain that grows by itself or gather the grapes in your unpruned vineyards. 12 The whole year shall be sacred for you; you shall eat only what the fields produce of themselves.
13 In this year all property that has been sold shall be restored to its original owner. 14 So when you sell land to your fellow Israelite or buy land from him, do not deal unfairly. 15 The price is to be set according to the number of years the land can produce crops before the next Year of Restoration. 16 If there are many years, the price shall be higher, but if there are only a few years, the price shall be lower, because what is being sold is the number of crops the land can produce. 17 Do not cheat a fellow Israelite, but obey the LORD your God.
The Problem of the Seventh Year
18 Obey all the LORD's laws and commands, so that you may live in safety in the land. 19 The land will produce its crops, and you will have all you want to eat and will live in safety.
20 But someone may ask what there will be to eat during the seventh year, when no fields are planted and no crops gathered. 21 The LORD will bless the land in the sixth year so that it will produce enough food for two years. 22 When you plant your fields in the eighth year, you will still be eating what you harvested during the sixth year, and you will have enough to eat until the crops you plant that year are harvested.
Restoration of Property
23 Your land must not be sold on a permanent basis, because you do not own it; it belongs to God, and you are like foreigners who are allowed to make use of it.
24 When land is sold, the right of the original owner to buy it back must be recognized. 25 If an Israelite becomes poor and is forced to sell his land, his closest relative is to buy it back. 26 A man who has no relative to buy it back may later become prosperous and have enough to buy it back himself. 27 In that case he must pay to the man who bought it a sum that will make up for the years remaining until the next Year of Restoration, when he would in any event recover his land. 28 But if he does not have enough money to buy the land back, it remains under the control of the man who bought it until the next Year of Restoration. In that year it will be returned to its original owner.
29 If a man sells a house in a walled city, he has the right to buy it back during the first full year from the date of sale. 30 But if he does not buy it back within the year, he loses the right of repurchase, and the house becomes the permanent property of the purchaser and his descendants; it will not be returned in the Year of Restoration. 31 But houses in unwalled villages are to be treated like fields; the original owner has the right to buy them back, and they are to be returned in the Year of Restoration. 32 However, Levites have the right to buy back at any time their property in the cities assigned to them. 33 If a house in one of these cities is sold by a Levite and is not bought back, it must be returned in the Year of Restoration, because the houses which the Levites own in their cities are their permanent property among the people of Israel. 34 But the pasture land around the Levite cities shall never be sold; it is their property forever.
Loans to the Poor
35 If a fellow Israelite living near you becomes poor and cannot support himself, you must provide for him as you would for a hired man, so that he can continue to live near you. 36 Do not charge him any interest, but obey God and let your fellow Israelite live near you. 37 Do not make him pay interest on the money you lend him, and do not make a profit on the food you sell him. 38 This is the command of the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt in order to give you the land of Canaan and to be your God.
Release of Slaves
39 If a fellow Israelite living near you becomes so poor that he sells himself to you as a slave, you shall not make him do the work of a slave. 40 He shall stay with you as a hired man and serve you until the next Year of Restoration. 41 At that time he and his children shall leave you and return to his family and to the property of his ancestors. 42 The people of Israel are the LORD's slaves, and he brought them out of Egypt; they must not be sold into slavery. 43 Do not treat them harshly, but obey your God. 44 If you need slaves, you may buy them from the nations around you. 45 You may also buy the children of the foreigners who are living among you. Such children born in your land may become your property, 46 and you may leave them as an inheritance to your sons, whom they must serve as long as they live. But you must not treat any of your fellow Israelites harshly.
47 Suppose a foreigner living with you becomes rich, while a fellow Israelite becomes poor and sells himself as a slave to that foreigner or to a member of his family. 48 After he is sold, he still has the right to be bought back. One of his brothers 49 or his uncle or his cousin or another of his close relatives may buy him back; or if he himself earns enough, he may buy his own freedom. 50 He must consult the one who bought him, and they must count the years from the time he sold himself until the next Year of Restoration and must set the price for his release on the basis of the wages paid a hired man. 51 He must refund a part of the purchase price according to the number of years left, 53 as if he had been hired on an annual basis. His master must not treat him harshly. 54 If he is not set free in any of these ways, he and his children must be set free in the next Year of Restoration. 55 An Israelite cannot be a permanent slave, because the people of Israel are the LORD's slaves. He brought them out of Egypt; he is the LORD their God.
TEV
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CM
A valiant effort to put into black and white, Mark. Certainly quite a task.
I think He'll go after the root of the problems though. In other words, the old testament Law was there to deal with people in more of a control your mind type thing for then. (Not saying mind control) Because of the consequences that would happen then and in the future.
Christ is the end of the Law for all. New and old testament people. But there has to be a standard in which to purify a soul. And rid of our selves of all this crap that will not be needed or wanted in the New Heavens and Earth.
Luke 3:9 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: every tree therefore which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Like I mentioned I believe he will go after the root of the problems in each of us. And we each are going to see it happen in our own lives. Hell for some, more hell for others, and even less for others.
As Hebrews says-God deals with us as sons. Each individual will be dealt with on their own merits. And He does know how to handle a heart without breaking it.
If you take the scriptures alone and try to figure it out, I doubt if anyone can come up with exactly how God will handle it. A book cannot contain it all.
But speaking of the book. Here's a quick class on interpreting the bible.
Genesis 40:8b And Joseph said unto them, Do not interpretations belong to God?
Ok-class over.
:D-->
It's in God's hands to show us the interpretation of His words. So much of it is hidden in plain sight.
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CM
interpretation is an interesting word study
Ok here's the advanced class-
Proverbs 1:1 The proverbs of Solomon the son of David, king of Israel; 2 To know wisdom and instruction; to perceive the words of understanding; 3 To receive the instruction of wisdom, justice, and judgment, and equity; 4 To give subtilty to the simple, to the young man knowledge and discretion. 5 A wise man will hear, and will increase learning; and a man of understanding shall attain unto wise counsels: 6 To understand a proverb, and the interpretation; the words of the wise, and their dark sayings.
Class over...but continues each day......
no membership required...don't have to belong to any religion
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Sunesis
The lake is for those who will perish (satan, the sons of perdition, etc.). I must ask myself, who are those Not written in the book of life, who will perish?
Who are those tares who have grown with the wheat that Christ will destroy at the end, who are these tares destined for the lake? Who is the seed of iron that has mingled with clay (mankind)? The seed of iron is destined for the lake.
It it these ones (the tares, the seed of iron) whose names will not be found written in the book of life, who will perish. They are the ones spoken of in Isaiah, who are rapha - dead, they have no soul and no resurrection.
Yes, there will a cleaning fire that will annihilate all evil, but I do not believe it is for mankind. It is for those whose seed not of God or humankind - it is for those who have "mingled" with the clay (humankind), who will be winnowed out at the end.
Average Joe sinner is not spending eternity in the lake of fire.
If the punishment for sin was being in Hell, or the lake of fire or whereever it is, for an eternity, than Christ would still be there paying for our sins. We could not have had a redeemer because he would have had to paid for an eternity for our sins, if that is the penalty for sinners. We would all still be dead in sins for eternity.
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Mark Sanguinetti
Some good points CM and Sunesis. As you might have read CM from one of my previous posts, I too see the significance of good fruit and God teaching us through his holy spirit. So I would say we are on the same page.
Sunesis, you bring up some often over looked scripture. Do you have some scriptural references for us to examine? Do you have software where you can quickly paste them to this forum thread? And can you add some of your commentary on these scriptures? It sounds like you are refering to the angels who cohabitated with women and produced the demon/human offspring that brought great evil to the earth and got destroyed in the flood. I see the possibilities of this actually having occured, but wanted to hear your views on this and how this ties in with this general discussion.
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CM
Yeah....Mark...
Same page, same planet, same God
There is only one God ya know....
Angels and Humans together..
I'm not ready to go there yet.
But we each have our angels...
Sunesis-good points
The wheat and the tares are in the
same ground though.
It's takes an excellent farmer to be able
to separate the two from it's roots,
without damaging the wheat.
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Sunesis
Hi Mark and CM. Yes, I am talking about Nephilim. At first I thought it was nuts, but there seems to be a general awakening in Christianity, so to speak, about them. I think maybe because Jesus said, when asked what it will be like in the last days, he said in Luke 17:26: And as it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of Man. He said this when asked what people should be looking for in the last days.
Noah was rescued because he was perfect, i.e., not morally, but he was a descendant of Adam and the only man who's bloodline had not been corrupted by Nephilim intermingling with mankind. Thus, the need for a flood.
Why was this intermingling done? Because Satan knew the Messiah was coming through Adam's bloodline. Thus, if you can corrupt the bloodline, there could be no Saviour, then this world would be perpetually his.
Anyway, some verses of why I think you still have seed floating around today. Gen 6:4: There were Nephilim in the earth in those days (Noah's days); and also AFTER THAT (after the flood), ... So, after the flood there was a second, smaller, irruption of these fallen angels. This became the nation of Canaan. That's why God was always telling Israel to kill all these tribes and not mingle with them. I used to think we were dealing with a genocidal God here - now it makes sense.
In Isa. 26:4 the Rephaim (same seed) have no resurrection - they are deceased - dead. Isa. references several places they, even though living, are called "dead" - not in the sense we know it, more as, they have no soul, they are hybred, there is no resurrection for them - just death (i.e., not written in the book of life). Their offsprings' massive strength is seen in some of the monuments still standing today.
For more info, see Bullinger's Appendix 25 from the Companion Bible.
As for the mingling part: See Daniel 2, he has the dream regarding the "miry clay" (mankind). "And whereas thou sawest iron (nephilim seed) mixed with miry clan (man), THEY SHALL MINGLE THEMSELVES WITH THE SEED OF MEN; but they shall not cleave one to another (i.e., they won't like each other, will be at odds), even as iron is not mixed with clay.
Israel failed in its charge by God to rid and destroy the remaining seed of nephilim in the tribes, thus, I believe we see this seed in action today and throughout history. Men who do acts that are so far beyond human comprehension - whether its a Hitler or a Dahmer.
I think that's why the Tares (nephilim seed) can only be winnowed out by Christ. Humankind will be saved - the promise was to all.
Why did Christ preach to the spirits in prison? Who were they? Those were the angels who impregnanted the women they wanted. To show them, look here, you lost. Remember, their offense was so heinous, they were not thrown out of their habitation, but they left it willingly, to cohabit with humankind, that God had no recourse but to destroy the world that was. This is amazing.
We are told in Revelation the next cleansing with God will be as by Fire.
When you see this, the Word makes so much more sense.
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TheInvisibleDan
There's perhaps no better work on this idea of angels cohabitating with humans than the Book of Enoch, as well as the Book of Jubilees, which have been brought up from time to time.
Therein one will encounter many of the same ideas encountered by (and drawn from) the NT writers themselves.
Danny
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Mark Sanguinetti
Absolutely Danny. If the book of Enoch was in fact written by Enoch himself. Then who better to corraborate this than Enoch who would have lived through this and been an eye witness of this pre flood time period. Actually, Enoch is the foundation for this knowledge of demon/angels cohabitation. The other biblical writers making reference learned this from reading Enoch. And this should be clear because Jude quotes Enoch in his epistle and the book of Genesis corraborates Enoch's testimony.
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TheInvisibleDan
Sunesis-
I beg to differ on the interpretation of this passage
in 1 Peter 3:19, which we were led to believe refers to the "spirits" of angels who caused the flood, or their giant progeny:
Without filtering these passages through Bullinger or Wierwille's "Are-the-Dead-Alive-No-They're-Not" - which we all here have been so accustomed - or re-reading ideas from 2nd Peter back into this section here - you may be as surprised as I...
1.)Christ preached to spirits [or "souls"] in prison [or "hades"]. BUllinger makes much ado about "preach" here being a proclamation of "triumph". Well, breaking down the gates of Hades to liberate the captive spirits or souls from death's "prison" was quite a triumphant story among early Christians. That's how many interpreted, "leading captivity captive" (as sometimes rendered "he led a train of prisoners...) -Eph.4.
2.) In verse 18, "Christ died for the unjust" - even for those "unbelieving" "spirits" who, while in the flesh, laughed at Noah when he was building his ark.And then again, perhaps some folks missed their opportunity to get on board along with the unicorns.
3.) In any event, these passages seemed to be concerned not with the angels who caused the flood - but with the spirits of all humanity which became wiped out by the flood.
This possibility gains much strength when reading just a little further (1 Peter 4:6), which there I don't think the writer intended figuratively (i.e., Eph.2):
Besides, let us ask ourselves - how much respect can we really maintain for one who tells us on the one hand to "love your enemies" - while on the other - he descends into hell and gloats at miserable spirits in chains of darkness?
That may sound like a former president of twi - or perhaps even those who mocked the Lord on the cross - but that sure as hell sounds nothing like Jesus to me. I do not think it's in His nature to do that. But even I should be incorrect in the identity of the "spirits" in question, then I trust Jesus' preaching to them would have toward their salvation.
Danny
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