Definition 5 (forever) is contradicted by the verses that I just posted. If anyone has a definition of a word they should be able to back it up with actual verses.
10 You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat. 11 It is written:
"'As surely as I live,' says the Lord,
'every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will confess to God.'"
NIV
Phil 2:10-11
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.
NIV
Apparently at the judgement seat talked about in the final part of the book of Revelation every knee will bow before the Lord Jesus. So eventually all men will have faith of some kind otherwise why would they bow down?
Isaiah 45:22-25
22 "Turn to me and be saved,all you ends of the earth;for I am God, and there is no other. 23 By myself I have sworn, my mouth has uttered in all integrity a word that will not be revoked. Before me every knee will bow; by me every tongue will swear. 24 They will say of me, 'In the LORD alone are righteousness and strength.'"All who have raged against him will come to him and be put to shame. 25 But in the LORD all the descendants of Israel will be found righteous and will exult.
Definitions of 1-6 seem reasonable to me based on the verses Mark supplied. I'm wondering where 7 came from.
On No.7 of "Eon" or "Aeon" referring to "A Supernatural being", Steve L. and I had a discussion on both the pros and cons of this a few months ago here. I set forth my argument for this usage at the 3rd post down.
10 You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat. 11 It is written:
"'As surely as I live,' says the Lord,
'every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will confess to God.'"
NIV
Phil 2:10-11
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.
NIV
Apparently at the judgement seat talked about in the final part of the book of Revelation every knee will bow before the Lord Jesus. So eventually all men will have faith of some kind otherwise why would they bow down?
Isaiah 45:22-25
22 "Turn to me and be saved,all you ends of the earth;for I am God, and there is no other. 23 By myself I have sworn, my mouth has uttered in all integrity a word that will not be revoked. Before me every knee will bow; by me every tongue will swear. 24 They will say of me, 'In the LORD alone are righteousness and strength.'"All who have raged against him will come to him and be put to shame. 25 But in the LORD all the descendants of Israel will be found righteous and will exult.
NIV
Mark
Acknowledging Jesus as Lord at the end does not have to mean faith. When the Germans surrendered to the Allies, it didn't mean they accepted them as lords, it meant they knew they were defeated. Many war criminals bowed the knee to the allies and were still executed.
Def, there is no godly reason to your arguments for eternal torment. I have brought in the Old Testament law as a means for resolving this, but you have ignored this. I bring in scriptures showing clearly that there is an end to aion or various ages and you ignore this also. All I can do is pray that God will open your eyes and get you to at least consider the many scriptures that I am sharing. Until that time there is still more material to share for others who want to learn.
From Stephen Jones' book "Judgements of the Divine Law", Chapter 1.
Tartarus
There are three different words in the New Testament Greek that are translated “hell” in the King James Bible. They do not mean the same thing, but nonetheless, they are translated in the same way, because men did not want to make the distinction. The three words are: Hades, Gehenna, and Tartarus.
Hades is translated “hell” 10 times and “grace” once; Gehenna is translated “hell” 12 times; and Tartarus appears in its verb form, tartaroo (“to cast into Tartarus”) just once in 2 Peter 2:4. Two of these words (Hades and Tartarus) are from the Greek language. The non-Christian Greeks themselves applied these terms in their own way according to their own religious view. We cannot, of course, apply the Greek meaning of these terms to Christianity or to the Bible.
Greek Mythology
Tartarus in Greek mythology was a place below Hades, reserved for those who had affronted the gods, which was considered to deserve a worse punishment. For example, Tantalus stole Zeus’ ambrosia and was consigned to Tartarus, where he was made to stand in a pool of water. But each time in his thirst he reached out to take a drink, the water would recede from him. There were also trees laden with fruit, but whenever he reached out to pick the fruit, it would recede from him. We get our word “tantalize” from this Greek myth.
The Angels that Sinned
We ought not to conceive of Tartarus in the way the Greeks defined it, but we must think of it in terms of the place where God confined “the angels that sinned” in Genesis 6:2. This word Tartarus appears only once in the New Testament, and it appears only in its verb form. 2 Peter 2:4 says,
4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell [Tartarus] and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment; 5 and did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a preacher of righteousness. . . .
In Peter’s first letter he made reference to these “angels” without actually using the word Tartarus. He wrote in 1 Peter 3:18-20,
18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, in order that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; 19 in which also He went and made proclama-tion to the spirits now in prison, 20 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water.
We have to make one correction in the NASB translation above. The phrase “went and” in verse 19 is NOT in the original Greek text. It does NOT say that He WENT AND preached, as if to conjure up the image of a circuit-riding preacher. The text actually reads that Jesus was “made alive in the spirit; in which [resurrected body] also He made proclamation to the spirits now in prison.”
In other words He was raised from the dead as a life-giving spirit (1 Cor. 15:45) and given a resurrected body, in which He made His proclamation to the spirits in prison—that is, in Tartarus. His very resurrection (or embodiment) was the proclamation. His resurrection into a physical body made of flesh and bone (Luke 24:39) was the proclamation of His enthronement over all, including the angels that sinned (or “spirits in prison”).
It was proclaimed that Jesus is King over all the earth, that all creation was subject to Him, and that He had been given a Name above every name. A few verses later, Peter confirms this in 1 Peter 3:22,
22 who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him.
His resurrection subjected all things to Him, including the angels that sinned. In essence, that is when the proclamation went forth into all the earth and to Tartarus itself that He was Lord of all, that He had been given a name above every name in heaven, in earth, and under the earth (Phil. 2:10).
Who Were the Angels that Sinned?
The angels that sinned back in Genesis 6:2-4 were called “sons of God” in contrast to the “daughters of men.” This term, “sons of God” refers to spiritual beings that have access to the heavens—in contrast to earth-bound fleshly creatures. Thus we see the “sons of God” standing before God in Job 1:6. In the New Testament the term is used to describe men and women who can “become the sons of God” (John 1:12) through Jesus Christ.
Genesis 6:2 also says that these sons of God took “the daughters of men” as wives and produced children by them. The Hebrew word for “men” is awdawm, or Adam, which is the usual word for men or mankind. When the Bible refers to the man Adam himself, it says ha-awdawm, or “the (man) Adam.” The article “the” makes the term specific. Dr. Bullinger points out in The Companion Bible, Appendix 14,
“Adam, without the article, denotes man or mankind in general (Gen. 1:26; 2:5; 5:1). With the article, it denotes the man, Adam....”
With this in mind, let us read Genesis 6:1, 2,
1 Now it came about, when Adam [ha-awdawm] began to multiply on the face of the land, and daughters were born to them [Adam and Eve, Gen. 1:27; 5:2] 2 that the sons of God saw that the daughters of Adam [ha-awdawm] were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves, whomever they chose.
Adam and Eve had both sons and daughters. Adam’s daughters were beautiful, and these angels took them as wives. Verse 4 says that they had children by them. Ultimately, the earth was so corrupted by this genetic mixture that God sent the flood to destroy them. Only Noah was found to be “perfect in his genealogy” (Gen. 6:9, literal). God’s motive is given in Genesis 6:3, which reads literally,
3 My Spirit will not distort [aval] the rule of [deen] the (man) Adam, because he also is flesh. . .
In other words, though these other spirits (fallen angels) would attempt to distort or turn aside the rule of Adam by their actions, the Spirit of God will not allow this to happen. The flood, then, was designed to thwart these fallen angels in their design.
The question immediately arises: How can spiritual beings (angels) have children with physical women on earth? The answer is that all through the Bible we have examples of angels manifesting as men. In Genesis 18 we read that three “men” came to Abraham on their way to Sodom. Abraham fed them, and they prophesied that Sarah would have a child in the following year.
Two of them then continued toward Sodom, but one of the “men” stayed behind to tell Abraham of Sodom’s coming destruction. Hence we read in Genesis 19:1 that only two of them actually arrived in Sodom:
1 Now the two angels came to Sodom in the evening as Lot was sitting in the gate of Sodom. . .
They had manifested themselves in human flesh and were recognized as such even by the people of Sodom, as the story shows. They even ate with Lot (Gen. 19:3) as they had eaten with Abraham.
Angels are said to often appear in human flesh. Other examples include the angel that appeared to Balaam in Numbers 22:31 and another to Manoah and his wife in Judges 13. If spirits have the ability to manifest in human flesh, and if they can even eat food, then it follows that they could also have the ability to have sexual relations with women and even to produce children by them. Of course, they only had this ability after taking human flesh.
These angels were called Nephilim, or “giants” in Genesis 6:4. This is the plural form of nephil, “a feller,” or one who cuts others down; hence, a bully or tyrant. The root word is naphal, “to fall.” This is probably the origin of the idea of “fallen” angels. Though Nephilim applies primarily to their actions in cutting down others, it carries this secondary meaning of having been felled by God in the flood.
The angels are thus “fallen,” but this is not to enter into the debate about whether or not angels have free will. That is a separate question. If angels do have free will, then they fell of their own free will. If not, then they were caused to fall for purposes known fully by God alone. We must limit our scope for now to the simple assertion that they are “fallen.” The nature of their “fall” in the sense of their disobedience is given in Jude 6,
6 And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day.
In other words, these angels desired to become flesh and dwell with the daughters of Adam. Why? Because angels are spirits, and they have the ability to manifest in flesh, but what they did not have was a soul. Nowhere in the Bible do we find that angels were given souls. The soul is in the blood, Leviticus 17:11 tells us. Angels do not have blood. They coveted a soul in order to gain authority over the earth, for God made man a living soul (Gen. 2:7) and gave man dominion over the earth (Genesis 1:26). In that sense, angels “fell” from heaven to earth—but then fell from earth to Tartarus.
Jude then relates the fallen angels to Sodom and Gomorrah, where the people “indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh” (Jude 7). The term “strange flesh” simply means foreign flesh—that is, in the Biblical sense, forbidden sexual relations or marriages. The angels were not allowed to marry the daughters of men, even as the men of Sodom were not allowed to marry other men in homosexual unions. This is, of course, one of the major social and moral issues facing us today. In the name of liberty we are once again going the way of Sodom.
Another intriguing question is the fact that Jesus said the last days would be “as in the days of Noah” (Matt. 24:37). We know that there were Nephilim even AFTER the flood, for Genesis 6:4 says,
4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward [Heb. ken, “to set upright; correct”], when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men, and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men [Heb. gibbor] who were of old men of renown.
So we see that even after God brought correction by means of the flood, there were Nephilim who again took the daughters of men and had more children by them. The Nephilim’s children thereafter usually were called Gibbor, “mighty men,” and Rephaim, from rapha, “to heal, invigorate.” The twelve spies in Israel saw these Nephilim when they spied out the land, and this is what made the people most afraid to enter the land at that time. We read of this in Numbers 13:32, 33,
32 So they gave out to the sons of Israel a bad report of the land which they had spied out, saying, The land through which we have gone, in spying it out, is a land that devours its inhabitants; and all the men whom we saw in it are men of great size. 33 There also we saw the Nephilim (the sons of Anak are part of the Gibbor); and we became like grasshoppers in our own sight, and so we were in their sight.
This verse equates the Nephilim with the Gibbor. Joshua destroyed most of the Anakim in Joshua 11:21, 22,
21 Then Joshua came at that time and cut off the Anakim from the hill country, from Hebron, from Debir, from Anab and from all the hill country of Judah and from all the hill country of Israel. Joshua utterly destroyed them with their cities. 22 There were no Anakim left in the land of the sons of Israel; only in Gaza, in Gath, and in Ashdod some remained.
Some yet remained until the time of David. Goliath of Gath came from this family of Anak, where some of these giants remained. David slew Goliath, and in a later battle Goliath’s brother was killed along with their sons (1 Chron. 20:5-8).
If we are living now in the days comparable to those of Noah, then perhaps this may have bearing on the question of UFO’s and so-called “extra-terrestrials.” If these really do exist, claiming to be from other star systems, then the most logical explanation from a Biblical standpoint would be that they are a reappearance of the conditions during the days of Noah. But it is far beyond the scope of this study to continue down that path of inquiry.
The Word Becomes Flesh
By way of contrast and comparison, in the New Testament the angel Gabriel (representing God) came to Mary (Luke 1:26), and impregnated her by the Holy Spirit (Matthew 1:18, 20). She then gave birth to Jesus, the Word made flesh. This was done at the command of God and at the proper time according to the plan of God. So it was done in the lawful manner.
It is apparent, then, that the angels who sinned in Genesis had attempted to counterfeit the incarnation of Christ. It was an attempt to usurp authority in the earth, for this was one reason Jesus had to be born through a daughter of Adam. Adam had been delegated dominion over the earth (Genesis 1:26). He did not subject the world to angels (Heb. 2:5), but rather to “the son of man (Adam).” But the purpose of the fallen angels was to “distort the rule of Adam” (Gen. 6:3) and ultimately to subject Christ, the “Son of Man” to their rule as well.
Jesus was the “Son of Adam,” called also the Last Adam (1 Cor. 15:45). Unlike the angels that sinned, Jesus was willing to pay the price by dying on the Cross, in order to give man immortal flesh. In His resurrection Jesus had a body of flesh and bone (Luke 24:39) but was no longer limited by this new spiritual flesh. He could change at will into a spiritual form and, as it were, “go to heaven.” The purpose of creation was to manifest the glory of God in both heaven and earth. This He achieved in a lawful manner, whereas the angels who tried to do this in Genesis 6 failed because they sinned—that is, they did it unlawfully.
And so when He at last triumphed over death itself, His resurrection proclaimed final defeat to the Nephilim.
Also, in Genesis 6 the angels’ motive was to subject mankind to their despotic rule. But Jesus’ motive was to set men free by His rule.
So first, it is clear from 2 Peter 2:4 that the angels that sinned were put into a prison of darkness to await their judgment. We also read in 1 Peter 3:18-20 that Jesus’ resurrection proclaimed to “the spirits now in prison” that He was King of the earth. The angels were the first to attempt to usurp the throne by unlawful means. They took the daughters of Adam as wives in order to lay claim to authority over the earth. But God destroyed the earth by a flood and imprisoned them in chains of darkness.
So it is obvious in studying this more carefully that Peter was not talking about Jesus preaching to men in Hades, but about a proclamation to the spirits or angels enchained in Tartarus.
It has long been taught—based upon these verses—that Jesus went to Hades and preached a sermon to the dead. Hades, they say, is divided into two compartments: Hell for the unbelievers, and Paradise for the believers. Then after three days of preaching, Jesus rose from the dead, emptying Paradise of believers, and taking them to heaven with Him at His ascension.
All of this is a nice legend, but unfortunately, it is based primarily upon Peter’s statements that we have already quoted. And here we run into a problem, because Peter was not referring to men in Hades but of the angels (or spirits) that sinned. But as we will see in chapter three, Jesus went to Hades, but did not preach any sermons there.
Tartarus, then, is not the place where men are judged either before or after the Great White Throne Judgment. Peter’s Tartarus differs from Greek mythology, yet the Bible borrows the Greek terminology in order to describe a place that is different from Hades, the place where “spirits” and “angels” are imprisoned.
I went back to my concordances and saw where aion means more than just age or world. There are meanings that are relating to eternity. Especially with aionos. So I believe Dr. Fairchild was not wrong is saying that one word has several meanings depending on the context.
It sounds like you are forcing scriptures to line up with your belief.
I have given you scriptures and referred you to experts who have reffered you to more complete studies and yet you do not want to investigate them. So why should I listen to you?
Those that teach hellfire for the ungodly may also be convicting themselves to the same fate by their religious views. Notice Matt 7:21-23 below.
21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23 Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
NIV
By these scriptures anyone who does evil may be excluded from the kingdom of heaven. This includes even people with faith enough to confess Jesus, prophesy, drive out demons and perform miracles all in the name of Jesus. So if these openly religiously people are excluded where does that leave the rest of us? By the religion of hellfire and eternal punishment there are no second chances. These people would also go to hellfire to be tortured forever along with the majority of everyone who has ever lived. We all have sin and iniquity of some form. Conceivably with such a strict interpretation, hellfire as eternal torment may be the lot for everyone who has ever lived save the Lord Jesus himself.
Fortunately, I don't believe in such an interpretation of scripture. When Jesus says they will not be part of the kingdom of heaven, I associate that with the millennial kingdom at Jesus' return as king over the nations of the earth. For those people who are resurrected to serve Jesus in His kingdom they will be examples of the faith of Jesus himself. The openly religious people who Jesus says will be excluded from the kingdom for their evil works can still receive eternal life at the general second resurrection along with the rest of mankind.
From Stephen Jones' book "Judgements of the Divine Law" Chapter 2.
Gehenna
Gehenna is the only biblical “hell” that has a Hebrew origin in the Old Testament. It is simply the Greek spelling of the Hebrew phrase, Ge-Hinnom, “valley of Hinnom.” This, too, was a shortened form of the Old Testament place called “the valley of Ben-Hinnom” (son of Hinnom). This valley was at the base of the hill on which Jerusalem was built.
Gehenna is thus the only term of the three where we can use its biblical meaning. The valley of the son of Hinnom was the place where Baal-worshipping Israelites had sacrificed their children to Molech (Jer. 32:35).
35 And they built the high places of Baal that are in the valley of Ben-hinnom to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire to Molech, which I had not commanded them nor had it entered My mind that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.
For this reason the prophet said that it would become a “valley of slaughter” when God brought judgment upon Jerusalem (Jer. 19:6). This is also the passage where God directed the prophet to break the jar in that valley in the sight of the elders of Judah. Verses 10 and 11 read,
10 Then you are to break the jar in the sight of the men who accompany you 11 and say to them, Thus says the Lord of hosts, Just so shall I break this people and this city, even as one breaks a potter’s vessel, which cannot again be repaired. . . .
Jerusalem was destroyed shortly afterward by the armies of Babylon. But it was rebuilt a century later in the days of Nehemiah. The city was destroyed again in 70 A.D., this time by the Roman armies. But it was later rebuilt. It was destroyed a number of times during the past 2000 years, but each time it has been rebuilt. Currently, the city still stands. Hence, Jeremiah’s prophecy has only had its first fulfillment. There remains a later destruction of Jerusalem that will exhaust the prophecy of Jeremiah.
It is to that day Jesus was referring when He used the term Gehenna in Matt. 23:33. In that passage Jesus says,
29 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous, 30 and say, If we had been living in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partners with them in shedding the blood of the prophets. 31 Consequently, you bear witness against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Fill up then the measure of your fathers. 33 You serpents, you brood of vipers, how shall you escape the sentence of GEHENNA.
Later in the same passage, verse 37 Jesus applies this prophetic sentence of doom upon Jerusalem itself, saying,
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. 38 Behold, your house is being left to you desolate!
After Jeremiah linked Gehenna to the destruction of Jerusalem through his prophecy of the broken jar, the term itself began to take on a prophetic meaning beyond the mere geographical location. It became a symbol of divine judgment upon those who rejected the word of the Lord through the prophets (and Jesus Himself). Jerusalem had killed the prophets as well as the Son, and this sealed its ultimate fate as Jeremiah said. In fact, in the same passage in Matthew 23 Jesus prophesied a later time in which Jerusalem would fill its cup of iniquity just prior to its final destruction. Verses 34-36 read:
34 Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city. 35 that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 Truly I say to you, all these things shall come upon this generation [genea, “race, offspring”].
Jesus warned the believers to flee from Jerusalem when they saw the city surrounded by foreign armies. They did so in 66-67 A.D. at the first siege of Jerusalem. However, since Jerusalem was subsequently rebuilt, we see the same warning applicable today. Those believers living in Jerusalem and the Israeli state should take heed to Jesus’ words once again and flee the city before its destruction occurs. They should not count upon God saving the city at the last minute, for Jeremiah’s prophecy is very clear. The city and nation WILL be destroyed in such a way that it cannot be repaired again.
The term, Gehenna, was a Hebrew word that was not necessarily familiar to Greeks or Romans. So we find that Jesus used this term eleven times when speaking of judgment upon the unbelievers in His audience. (See Matt. 5:22, 29, 30; 10:28; 18:9, 23:15, 33; Mark 9:43, 45, 47; Luke 12:5.) His use of this term, instead of Hades (“the place or state of the dead”) gives his words a specific flavor, for He was warning them that if they did not believe His words, they would see Jeremiah’s prophecy of destruction fulfilled. And they, as individuals, would find themselves cast into Gehenna. Jeremiah had prophesied that that valley would become “the valley of slaughter.”
Jesus spoke more of Gehenna than of Hades. We will not do a complete study of Jesus’ words about Gehenna, but it would be useful to look at one specific passage in Mark 9:47, 48,
47 And if your eye causes you to stumble, cast it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes, to be cast into hell [Gehenna], 48 where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.
Jesus was quoting and commenting upon Isaiah 66:24, which says,
24 Then they shall go forth and look on the corpses of the men who have transgressed against Me. For their worm shall not die, and their fire shall not be quenched [Greek: “is not quenched”]; and they shall be an abhorrence to all mankind.
Isaiah was writing specifically about the old and new Jerusalem (66:10) and the new heavens and the new earth (66:22). That is why Jesus used the term Gehenna, rather than Hades. It was a symbol of judgment upon the wicked. By the time Jesus walked the earth, Gehenna was no longer used for human sacrifice, but was the city dump. It was also the place where they cast the unclaimed bodies of criminals that had been executed or crucified. Like many dumps today, Gehenna was always smoldering, because it was fueled by the trash that people threw into it. But because it also contained organic matter, dead animals and men, it also was continuously infested with maggots (“worms”).
It is often claimed that this is a picture of a burning “hell” torturing conscious sinners in an afterlife, but that is an extended and unwarranted interpretation of this passage. First of all, neither Isaiah nor Jesus meant to imply that the worms were immortal, but rather that there were always worms there. Maggots live for a while and die after breeding more maggots.
Likewise, the fire is not perpetual. The point is that no man can quench it. Only God can quench this fire. The NASB above shows the bias of the translators when it renders the phrase too strongly, “shall not be quenched.” The literal rendering of the phrase is simply “is not quenched,” that is, not by any man. That is, the fire of judgment will surely come, and no man can prevent it.
This word, Gehenna, refers to the destruction of Jerusalem and the slaughter occurring at this city’s final judgment, because its citizens had become God’s enemies. Most have been taught that the “enemies” being slaughtered are non-Jews of some kind who come from other nations to destroy the Israeli state. But the prophecies do not tell us that they are non-Jews; they say simply that they are God’s enemies who have come from those foreign lands. The way God defines His “enemies” in the law, the prophets, and in the New Testament shows that the judgment is upon the unbelieving Jews who are returning to the old land without first repenting of their hostility against Jesus Christ.
The law of tribulation found in Lev. 26:40-42 (and, indeed, the entire chapter) sets forth the principle that if the people were hostile to Yahweh (who is Jesus Christ in His pre-incarnate form), then Yahweh would be an enemy to them as well. The only way to stop being God’s enemy is to do as He says in Lev. 26:40-42,
40 If they confess their iniquity and the iniquity of their forefathers, in their unfaithfulness which they committed against Me, and also in their acting with hostility against Me— 41 I also was acting with hostility against them, to bring them into the land of their enemies—or if their uncircumcised heart becomes humbled so that they then make amends for their iniquity, 42 then I will remember My covenant with Jacob, and I will remember also My covenant with Isaac, and My covenant with Abraham as well, and I will remember the land.
An enemy is one who is not reconciled to another. As long as anyone—including any unbelieving Jew—is hostile to Jesus Christ, they are legally defined as God’s “enemies.” Furthermore, the laws of tribulation make it clear that God will not remember His covenant with Abraham until the people repent. In Isaiah 63:9, 10 the prophet gives us a specific example of this, saying,
9 In all their affliction He was afflicted, and the angel of His presence saved them; in His love and in His mercy He redeemed them; and He lifted them and carried them all the days of old. 10 But they rebelled and grieved His Holy Spirit; therefore, He turned Himself to become their enemy, He fought against them.
This happened all through the book of Judges, where God “sold them” into the hands of their enemies because of their sin. (See Judges 3:8 and 4:2.) God never reversed their captivities until the people repented.
God also became their enemy when He gave their land to Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon (Jer. 27:6). The captivity was finally reversed after 70 years, not only because it was the appointed time (Jer. 25:11; Dan. 9:2), but also because Daniel repented on behalf of his people for the sins of their fathers. This fulfilled the conditions of the law.
This idea carries over into the New Testament as well. In Matthew 22:1-7 Jesus told a parable about the servants who refused to come to the wedding. Verses 6 and 7 say,
6 And the rest seized his slaves and mistreated them and killed them. 7 But the king was enraged and sent his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and set their city on fire.
Jesus specifically called the inhabitants of Jerusalem “enemies” in Luke 19, where the “citizens” (i.e., citizens of Judea) hated Him and did not want Him to rule over them (Luke 19:14). Jesus’ verdict in verse 27 was,
27 But these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here [Jerusalem] and slay them in my presence.
The Apostle Paul likewise says in Philippians 3:18,
18 For many walk, of whom I often told you, and now tell you even weeping, that they are enemies of the cross of Christ.
Jesus prophesied that Jerusalem (Matt. 23:27, 28) would be destroyed with its temple (Matt. 24:2) because of the unbelief of its citizens. This occurred in 70 A.D., and God imposed upon them a “yoke of iron” (Deut. 28:48), which was God’s sentence of exile. In the early 1900’s the Zionist movement began, by which the Jews—still in a state of unbelief—decided to end their exile by force, rather than by fulfilling the conditions laid down in Lev. 26:40-42. Hence, their return as “enemies” put them in a position of fulfilling the prophecies of destruction in Gehenna. In their blindness they are being led to slaughter, and much of the evangelical Church encourages them as they go into the fire.
Yet God in His mercy has caused the majority of the Jews to remain in other countries, in spite of Zionist browbeating. Perhaps when the final destruction comes, many of these will be sufficiently shocked and disillusioned with Zionism and Judaism itself and will be ready to hear the Word of the Lord and accept Jesus as the Messiah.
The only other one who used the term, Gehenna, was Jesus’ brother, James, in James 3:6. James most likely wrote his epistle in Hebrew, using the term Ben-hinnom, but it has come down to us in Greek, where the translation reads Gehenna. He says that a man’s tongue “defiles the entire body and sets on fire the course of our life, and is set on fire by GEHENNA.” James was the leader of the Church in Jerusalem, and so his audience was familiar with the term, both its geographical location as well as its symbolic application. James wrote that the tongue is a like the rudder of a ship. Even as the rudder sets the course of the ship, so also does the tongue set “the course of our life.” And if that course was evil, then those individuals would go down with the ship.
Gehenna, then, was really a prophetic judgment directed against Jerusalem and its citizens who refused to believe the prophets or accept the Messiah. It did not directly refer to the actual state or place of the dead, which is Hades.
I am impressed by your passionate defense of your position. Although, I am not moved to come to your side of the discussion, I will admit it has made me more sensitive of the topic and how I have approached it during my life.
I would like to recommend a book called "Cat and Dog Theology" by Bob Sjogren (show grin) and Gerald Robison.
They are directors of a missionary organization and their premise is that many Christians today live with only half a gospel.
And Mark, this book has changed me in the sense that I was living under the theology that I was "saved from" hell. Now I am learning how I am "saved for" the purpose of bringing God glory in all that I do.
I still believe the scriptures point to punishment of some sort for rejecting God and Christ and the Holy Spirit, and I know millions perish without ever hearing the truth.
This pains me when I remember the Great Commandment.
So what has changed, you might add? Well, instead of fearing hell in my own life, and passing that on to others, I want to focus on what brings God glory and let that be my motivation.
I know you like or have a preference for 19th century bible commentaries.
Here's an entry from Easton's 1897 bible dictionary:
Eternal death
The miserable fate of the wicked in hell (Matt. 25:46; Mark 3:29; Heb. 6:2; 2 Thess. 1:9; Matt. 18:8; 25:41; Jude 1:7). The Scripture as clearly teaches the unending duration of the penal sufferings of the lost as the "everlasting life," the "eternal life" of the righteous. The same Greek words in the New Testament (aion, aionios, aidios) are used to express (1) the eternal existence of God (1 Tim. 1:17; Rom. 1:20; 16:26); (2) of Christ (Rev. 1:18); (3) of the Holy Ghost (Heb. 9:14); and (4) the eternal duration of the sufferings of the lost (Matt. 25:46; Jude 1:6).
Their condition after casting off the mortal body is spoken of in these expressive words: "Fire that shall not be quenched" (Mark 9:45, 46), "fire unquenchable" (Luke 3:17), "the worm that never dies," the "bottomless pit" (Rev. 9:1), "the smoke of their torment ascending up for ever and ever" (Rev. 14:10, 11).
The idea that the "second death" (Rev. 20:14) is in the case of the wicked their absolute destruction, their annihilation, has not the slightest support from Scripture, which always represents their future as one of conscious suffering enduring for ever.
The supposition that God will ultimately secure the repentance and restoration of all sinners is equally unscriptural. There is not the slightest trace in all the Scriptures of any such restoration. Sufferings of themselves have no tendency to purify the soul from sin or impart spiritual life. The atoning death of Christ and the sanctifying power of the Holy Spirit are the only means of divine appointment for bringing men to repentance. Now in the case of them that perish these means have been rejected, and "there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins" (Heb. 10:26, 27).
Actually, if one does a simple Internet search for Greek Mythology Tartarus or Greek Mythology Hades one will discover the origin of the doctrine of eternal torment. These are the same words used in the New Testament. However, one should not base their religious views on Greek mythology. One should base it on the scriptures from both the Old and New Testaments.
I am getting ready for a planned business trip to Portland, Oregon and am leaving early tomorrow. I will not have access to a computer for a few days.
Yes Def, for the next few days you have this thread all to yourself. Except of course if another poster surprises us. However, when I get back I will be posting a whole chapter on the biblical year of Jubilee. This is an interesting topic and one that is not well known, yet it was part of the Old Testament law. I am not sure the children of Israel ever completely applied this. However, since Jesus always fullfilled the law of God he will for all of mankind. It might take a while, but the will of the Father will ultimately be done. Here is a taste from the Nelson Bible Dictionary. Enjoy!
JUBILEE
[JOO bah lee] (blowing the trumpet)-the 50 th year after seven cycles of seven years, when specific instructions about property and slavery took effect (Lev 25:8-55).
The word jubilee comes from the Hebrew yobel, which means to be "jubilant" and to "exult." The word is related to the Hebrew word for ram's horn or trumpet. The Jubilee year was launched with a blast from a ram's horn on the Day of Atonement, signifying a call to joy, liberation, and the beginning of a year for "doing justice" and "loving mercy."
The 50th year was a special year in which to "proclaim liberty throughout all the land" (Lev 25:10). Specifically, individuals who had incurred debts and had sold themselves as slaves or servants to others were released from their debts and were set at liberty. Since all land belonged to God (Lev 25:23), land could not be sold; but land could be lost to another for reasons of debt. In the Year of Jubilee such land was returned to the families to whom it was originally given.
Like the SABBATICAL YEARS, the Year of Jubilee was a year for neither sowing nor reaping (Lev 25:11). The 50 th year became important in Israel's economic life. If anyone wished to redeem a person in debt, the price for doing so was calculated on the basis of the number of years remaining until the Jubilee.
Part of the reason why God established the Jubilee Year was to prevent the Israelites from oppressing one another (Lev 25:17). One effect of the Jubilee Year was to prevent a permanent system of classes. The Jubilee Year had a leveling effect on Israel's culture; it gave everyone a chance to start over, economically and socially. The Jubilee Year reminds one of God's interest in liberty; God wants people to be free (Luke 4:18-19). It also stands as a witness to God's desire for justice on earth and calls into question any social practices that lead to permanent bondag and loss of economic opportunity.
One may also see God's provision for the land's conservation in the call for the land to rest (Lev 25:11,18-22). The people were not to extract the earth's resources in a greedy manner.
The sabbatical year and presumably the Year of Jubilee were also characterized by instruction in the Law (Deut 31:9-13). In this way the people learned that God's demand to love and obey Him was directly related to his concern for the welfare of all the people of Israel.
You say and quote sources that the concept of hell i(fire and brimstorne) came from pagan sources. I came across this study on hell at www.graceonlinelibrary.org
The Biblical Doctrine of Hell Examined by Brian Schwertley
Here’s an excerpt. Is this what you are talking about?
Tophet
This eternal destruction is illustrated in many ways. One of the most terrifying is the designation Tophet or Gehenna. Tophet was a small valley south to southwest of Jerusalem which belonged to the sons of Hinnom. Tophet and Gehenna came to be designations of hell because of the terrible things which occurred there.
The wicked, unbelieving Jews of old would come to Tophet to sacrifice their children to the god Molech (Jer. 7:31). [4] At Tophet the idolatrous Jews placed a large, bronze statue of Molech, shaped like a man with outstretched arms and hands. A fire would be built within the statue. When the statue was red hot, the idol-worshipers would place their baby sons and daughters onto the outstretched, red-hot arms and hands. Their little infants would die the most painful, excruciating death imaginable: their skin would be seared off their bodies, their flesh would be roasted; they were burned alive.
The screams, cries and screeches of their own children’s agony was unbearable, even to these wicked, debauched parents. Therefore, drums were played to drown out the hideous screams of the tortured infants. Hence Tophet, in the Hebrew, signifies the beating of drums. [5] Therefore Tophet is a perfect symbol of hell where “God takes His rebellious children, casts them into the fire, [and] puts them into the arms of destruction” [6] forever away from Christ and His saving blood. Will there be drums to drown out your screams when you sink into the flames of hell—you who reject Christ and His gospel?
Tophet became associated with judgment and slaughter in Judah’s history. The armies of Babylon would come and slay so many people of Judah that there would be too many bodies to bury. Thousands upon thousands of bodies would lie in the open fields to be consumed by birds and animals. Tophet would be filled with the bloated, rotting bodies of rebellious Judah. “‘Behold, the days are coming,’ says the LORD, ‘when it will no more be called Tophet, or the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, but the Valley of Slaughter; for they will bury in Tophet until there is no room. The corpses of this people will be food for the birds of the heaven and for the beasts of the earth. And no one will frighten them away’” (Jer. 7:32-33). The historical Tophet and the gruesome events that occurred there are a foretaste of the destruction and torment of hell. God Almighty’s proclamation of damnation against unbelieving, rebellious Judah will echo forth from the lips of Jesus Christ against all those who reject the gospel. “And they shall go forth and look upon the corpses of the men who have transgressed against Me. For their worm does not die, and their fire is not quenched. They shall be an abhorrence to all flesh” (Isa. 66:24).
By the time of the birth of Jesus Christ, Tophet (or Gehenna) had become a garbage dump for Jerusalem. Gehenna was also used to dispose of the dead bodies of criminals. Fires burned continuously to consume the garbage. The garbage and dead bodies were also consumed by worms (maggots). In the same way, hell is the ash heap—the garbage dump—of all human history.
Those who believe in Jesus Christ and repent of their sins go to heaven or paradise (Jn. 3:18; 6:35, 40; Lk. 23:43; 24:47). But those who refuse to repent and submit to Jesus Christ become eternal garbage. Without Christ’s cleansing blood, sinners are polluted and unclean before God. Because of your sins, you are like a rotting corpse awaiting the fire of God. Jesus used the imagery of Gehenna to warn you to repent: “If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched; where ‘Their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.’ And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame, rather than having two feet, to be cast into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched; where ‘Their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.’ And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire; where ‘Their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.’ For everyone will be seasoned with fire, and every sacrifice will be seasoned with salt” (Mk. 9:43-49).
Mark, I took your post where you criticized Prof. Fairchild's answer and related it to him.
Here is his reply.
Your friend makes this statement: "In providing definitions for Greek words one must be disciplined to base their understanding solely on actual biblical usages of the word." This sounds very "Biblical". However, that statement is not realistic. The Biblical authors did not use a language that was unique to the Bible. The same Greek that was written in the New Testament was the SAME Greek language that was spoken on the street. The same is true today, Christians do not speak a different language than others in our world. Certainly SOME Greek words were nuanced in Christian circles; but these words do not lose their common or "secular" meaning. No scholar or lexicon derives the meaning of ancient Greek words "solely on actual biblical usages." Can you imagine Webster's Dictionary giving "unique" Christian meanings? Greek Lexicons are not written that way.
When your friend talks about the word "genea", he simply doesn't know what he is talking about. "Genea" and the associated cognate words deal with family relationships and has very little to do with time - which is what "aion" deals with. Aion and Genea can be translated "generation", but they carry different meanings. To give you an illustration: If you're attempting to describe how to do something, you say "this is the WAY." Here "way" means the manner in which something is done. On the other hand, the word "Way" can refer to a street or roadway. We can translate both of these concepts into the same English word "way", but the meaning of "way" is totally different in these two examples.
Again, when your friend states that "number 7 (a supernatural being) is perhaps in Fairchild's thinking because God is the God of the aeons" he simply does not know what he is talking about. The term "aeon" was used by Gnostics (and others) who believed that supernatural beings inhabited various realms between heaven and earth.
Honestly, if he won't even listen to what I'm saying why does he want input from me? Some people live in pumpkins and don't want anyone to tell them about the rest of the world.
"Evidently, this person is not going to accept ANY response except the one he has already embraced."
Mark,
I have to say I agree. Everywhere I have looked, your definition of aion is very narrow. This is especially true in light of the fact that the concordances I have seen, show the word is most often used in the context of eternity.
I believe you are practicing eisegesis (sp?) and looking for verses that prove your point rather than really seeing what scriptures say.
I ran across a verse it Matthew 7 that speaks of a narrow way to a gate that few will enter in and a broad path to gate that many will enter.
Not everyone will spend eternity with God. He doesn't tell us who will and won't because we are to give every man a reason for the hope we have.
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Mark Sanguinetti
Definition 5 (forever) is contradicted by the verses that I just posted. If anyone has a definition of a word they should be able to back it up with actual verses.
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
That is an extraordinary quote. As if it were THE ABSOLUTE TRUTH!
Last Rites anyone?
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Mark Sanguinetti
Rom 14:10-11
10 You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat. 11 It is written:
"'As surely as I live,' says the Lord,
'every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will confess to God.'"
NIV
Phil 2:10-11
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.
NIV
Apparently at the judgement seat talked about in the final part of the book of Revelation every knee will bow before the Lord Jesus. So eventually all men will have faith of some kind otherwise why would they bow down?
Isaiah 45:22-25
22 "Turn to me and be saved,all you ends of the earth;for I am God, and there is no other. 23 By myself I have sworn, my mouth has uttered in all integrity a word that will not be revoked. Before me every knee will bow; by me every tongue will swear. 24 They will say of me, 'In the LORD alone are righteousness and strength.'"All who have raged against him will come to him and be put to shame. 25 But in the LORD all the descendants of Israel will be found righteous and will exult.
NIV
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TheInvisibleDan
On No.7 of "Eon" or "Aeon" referring to "A Supernatural being", Steve L. and I had a discussion on both the pros and cons of this a few months ago here. I set forth my argument for this usage at the 3rd post down.
Danny
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def59
Here's something to ponder
BU believes it is not fair to punish eternally for what one does in a finite life.
We can examine fairness later, but what should be the punishment for rejecting an Infinite being?
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def59
Mark
Acknowledging Jesus as Lord at the end does not have to mean faith. When the Germans surrendered to the Allies, it didn't mean they accepted them as lords, it meant they knew they were defeated. Many war criminals bowed the knee to the allies and were still executed.
It will be the same at judgement.
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def59
Well thanks for recognizing the obvious Song. I bet you'll sleep better now.
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def59
Mark
When people reject an eternal God, why should they expect a temporary or limited punishement?
Do you think that it is unfair?
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Mark Sanguinetti
Def, there is no godly reason to your arguments for eternal torment. I have brought in the Old Testament law as a means for resolving this, but you have ignored this. I bring in scriptures showing clearly that there is an end to aion or various ages and you ignore this also. All I can do is pray that God will open your eyes and get you to at least consider the many scriptures that I am sharing. Until that time there is still more material to share for others who want to learn.
From Stephen Jones' book "Judgements of the Divine Law", Chapter 1.
Tartarus
There are three different words in the New Testament Greek that are translated “hell” in the King James Bible. They do not mean the same thing, but nonetheless, they are translated in the same way, because men did not want to make the distinction. The three words are: Hades, Gehenna, and Tartarus.
Hades is translated “hell” 10 times and “grace” once; Gehenna is translated “hell” 12 times; and Tartarus appears in its verb form, tartaroo (“to cast into Tartarus”) just once in 2 Peter 2:4. Two of these words (Hades and Tartarus) are from the Greek language. The non-Christian Greeks themselves applied these terms in their own way according to their own religious view. We cannot, of course, apply the Greek meaning of these terms to Christianity or to the Bible.
Greek Mythology
Tartarus in Greek mythology was a place below Hades, reserved for those who had affronted the gods, which was considered to deserve a worse punishment. For example, Tantalus stole Zeus’ ambrosia and was consigned to Tartarus, where he was made to stand in a pool of water. But each time in his thirst he reached out to take a drink, the water would recede from him. There were also trees laden with fruit, but whenever he reached out to pick the fruit, it would recede from him. We get our word “tantalize” from this Greek myth.
The Angels that Sinned
We ought not to conceive of Tartarus in the way the Greeks defined it, but we must think of it in terms of the place where God confined “the angels that sinned” in Genesis 6:2. This word Tartarus appears only once in the New Testament, and it appears only in its verb form. 2 Peter 2:4 says,
4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell [Tartarus] and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment; 5 and did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a preacher of righteousness. . . .
In Peter’s first letter he made reference to these “angels” without actually using the word Tartarus. He wrote in 1 Peter 3:18-20,
18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, in order that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; 19 in which also He went and made proclama-tion to the spirits now in prison, 20 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water.
We have to make one correction in the NASB translation above. The phrase “went and” in verse 19 is NOT in the original Greek text. It does NOT say that He WENT AND preached, as if to conjure up the image of a circuit-riding preacher. The text actually reads that Jesus was “made alive in the spirit; in which [resurrected body] also He made proclamation to the spirits now in prison.”
In other words He was raised from the dead as a life-giving spirit (1 Cor. 15:45) and given a resurrected body, in which He made His proclamation to the spirits in prison—that is, in Tartarus. His very resurrection (or embodiment) was the proclamation. His resurrection into a physical body made of flesh and bone (Luke 24:39) was the proclamation of His enthronement over all, including the angels that sinned (or “spirits in prison”).
It was proclaimed that Jesus is King over all the earth, that all creation was subject to Him, and that He had been given a Name above every name. A few verses later, Peter confirms this in 1 Peter 3:22,
22 who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him.
His resurrection subjected all things to Him, including the angels that sinned. In essence, that is when the proclamation went forth into all the earth and to Tartarus itself that He was Lord of all, that He had been given a name above every name in heaven, in earth, and under the earth (Phil. 2:10).
Who Were the Angels that Sinned?
The angels that sinned back in Genesis 6:2-4 were called “sons of God” in contrast to the “daughters of men.” This term, “sons of God” refers to spiritual beings that have access to the heavens—in contrast to earth-bound fleshly creatures. Thus we see the “sons of God” standing before God in Job 1:6. In the New Testament the term is used to describe men and women who can “become the sons of God” (John 1:12) through Jesus Christ.
Genesis 6:2 also says that these sons of God took “the daughters of men” as wives and produced children by them. The Hebrew word for “men” is awdawm, or Adam, which is the usual word for men or mankind. When the Bible refers to the man Adam himself, it says ha-awdawm, or “the (man) Adam.” The article “the” makes the term specific. Dr. Bullinger points out in The Companion Bible, Appendix 14,
“Adam, without the article, denotes man or mankind in general (Gen. 1:26; 2:5; 5:1). With the article, it denotes the man, Adam....”
With this in mind, let us read Genesis 6:1, 2,
1 Now it came about, when Adam [ha-awdawm] began to multiply on the face of the land, and daughters were born to them [Adam and Eve, Gen. 1:27; 5:2] 2 that the sons of God saw that the daughters of Adam [ha-awdawm] were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves, whomever they chose.
Adam and Eve had both sons and daughters. Adam’s daughters were beautiful, and these angels took them as wives. Verse 4 says that they had children by them. Ultimately, the earth was so corrupted by this genetic mixture that God sent the flood to destroy them. Only Noah was found to be “perfect in his genealogy” (Gen. 6:9, literal). God’s motive is given in Genesis 6:3, which reads literally,
3 My Spirit will not distort [aval] the rule of [deen] the (man) Adam, because he also is flesh. . .
In other words, though these other spirits (fallen angels) would attempt to distort or turn aside the rule of Adam by their actions, the Spirit of God will not allow this to happen. The flood, then, was designed to thwart these fallen angels in their design.
The question immediately arises: How can spiritual beings (angels) have children with physical women on earth? The answer is that all through the Bible we have examples of angels manifesting as men. In Genesis 18 we read that three “men” came to Abraham on their way to Sodom. Abraham fed them, and they prophesied that Sarah would have a child in the following year.
Two of them then continued toward Sodom, but one of the “men” stayed behind to tell Abraham of Sodom’s coming destruction. Hence we read in Genesis 19:1 that only two of them actually arrived in Sodom:
1 Now the two angels came to Sodom in the evening as Lot was sitting in the gate of Sodom. . .
They had manifested themselves in human flesh and were recognized as such even by the people of Sodom, as the story shows. They even ate with Lot (Gen. 19:3) as they had eaten with Abraham.
Angels are said to often appear in human flesh. Other examples include the angel that appeared to Balaam in Numbers 22:31 and another to Manoah and his wife in Judges 13. If spirits have the ability to manifest in human flesh, and if they can even eat food, then it follows that they could also have the ability to have sexual relations with women and even to produce children by them. Of course, they only had this ability after taking human flesh.
These angels were called Nephilim, or “giants” in Genesis 6:4. This is the plural form of nephil, “a feller,” or one who cuts others down; hence, a bully or tyrant. The root word is naphal, “to fall.” This is probably the origin of the idea of “fallen” angels. Though Nephilim applies primarily to their actions in cutting down others, it carries this secondary meaning of having been felled by God in the flood.
The angels are thus “fallen,” but this is not to enter into the debate about whether or not angels have free will. That is a separate question. If angels do have free will, then they fell of their own free will. If not, then they were caused to fall for purposes known fully by God alone. We must limit our scope for now to the simple assertion that they are “fallen.” The nature of their “fall” in the sense of their disobedience is given in Jude 6,
6 And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day.
In other words, these angels desired to become flesh and dwell with the daughters of Adam. Why? Because angels are spirits, and they have the ability to manifest in flesh, but what they did not have was a soul. Nowhere in the Bible do we find that angels were given souls. The soul is in the blood, Leviticus 17:11 tells us. Angels do not have blood. They coveted a soul in order to gain authority over the earth, for God made man a living soul (Gen. 2:7) and gave man dominion over the earth (Genesis 1:26). In that sense, angels “fell” from heaven to earth—but then fell from earth to Tartarus.
Jude then relates the fallen angels to Sodom and Gomorrah, where the people “indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh” (Jude 7). The term “strange flesh” simply means foreign flesh—that is, in the Biblical sense, forbidden sexual relations or marriages. The angels were not allowed to marry the daughters of men, even as the men of Sodom were not allowed to marry other men in homosexual unions. This is, of course, one of the major social and moral issues facing us today. In the name of liberty we are once again going the way of Sodom.
Another intriguing question is the fact that Jesus said the last days would be “as in the days of Noah” (Matt. 24:37). We know that there were Nephilim even AFTER the flood, for Genesis 6:4 says,
4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward [Heb. ken, “to set upright; correct”], when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men, and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men [Heb. gibbor] who were of old men of renown.
So we see that even after God brought correction by means of the flood, there were Nephilim who again took the daughters of men and had more children by them. The Nephilim’s children thereafter usually were called Gibbor, “mighty men,” and Rephaim, from rapha, “to heal, invigorate.” The twelve spies in Israel saw these Nephilim when they spied out the land, and this is what made the people most afraid to enter the land at that time. We read of this in Numbers 13:32, 33,
32 So they gave out to the sons of Israel a bad report of the land which they had spied out, saying, The land through which we have gone, in spying it out, is a land that devours its inhabitants; and all the men whom we saw in it are men of great size. 33 There also we saw the Nephilim (the sons of Anak are part of the Gibbor); and we became like grasshoppers in our own sight, and so we were in their sight.
This verse equates the Nephilim with the Gibbor. Joshua destroyed most of the Anakim in Joshua 11:21, 22,
21 Then Joshua came at that time and cut off the Anakim from the hill country, from Hebron, from Debir, from Anab and from all the hill country of Judah and from all the hill country of Israel. Joshua utterly destroyed them with their cities. 22 There were no Anakim left in the land of the sons of Israel; only in Gaza, in Gath, and in Ashdod some remained.
Some yet remained until the time of David. Goliath of Gath came from this family of Anak, where some of these giants remained. David slew Goliath, and in a later battle Goliath’s brother was killed along with their sons (1 Chron. 20:5-8).
If we are living now in the days comparable to those of Noah, then perhaps this may have bearing on the question of UFO’s and so-called “extra-terrestrials.” If these really do exist, claiming to be from other star systems, then the most logical explanation from a Biblical standpoint would be that they are a reappearance of the conditions during the days of Noah. But it is far beyond the scope of this study to continue down that path of inquiry.
The Word Becomes Flesh
By way of contrast and comparison, in the New Testament the angel Gabriel (representing God) came to Mary (Luke 1:26), and impregnated her by the Holy Spirit (Matthew 1:18, 20). She then gave birth to Jesus, the Word made flesh. This was done at the command of God and at the proper time according to the plan of God. So it was done in the lawful manner.
It is apparent, then, that the angels who sinned in Genesis had attempted to counterfeit the incarnation of Christ. It was an attempt to usurp authority in the earth, for this was one reason Jesus had to be born through a daughter of Adam. Adam had been delegated dominion over the earth (Genesis 1:26). He did not subject the world to angels (Heb. 2:5), but rather to “the son of man (Adam).” But the purpose of the fallen angels was to “distort the rule of Adam” (Gen. 6:3) and ultimately to subject Christ, the “Son of Man” to their rule as well.
Jesus was the “Son of Adam,” called also the Last Adam (1 Cor. 15:45). Unlike the angels that sinned, Jesus was willing to pay the price by dying on the Cross, in order to give man immortal flesh. In His resurrection Jesus had a body of flesh and bone (Luke 24:39) but was no longer limited by this new spiritual flesh. He could change at will into a spiritual form and, as it were, “go to heaven.” The purpose of creation was to manifest the glory of God in both heaven and earth. This He achieved in a lawful manner, whereas the angels who tried to do this in Genesis 6 failed because they sinned—that is, they did it unlawfully.
And so when He at last triumphed over death itself, His resurrection proclaimed final defeat to the Nephilim.
Also, in Genesis 6 the angels’ motive was to subject mankind to their despotic rule. But Jesus’ motive was to set men free by His rule.
So first, it is clear from 2 Peter 2:4 that the angels that sinned were put into a prison of darkness to await their judgment. We also read in 1 Peter 3:18-20 that Jesus’ resurrection proclaimed to “the spirits now in prison” that He was King of the earth. The angels were the first to attempt to usurp the throne by unlawful means. They took the daughters of Adam as wives in order to lay claim to authority over the earth. But God destroyed the earth by a flood and imprisoned them in chains of darkness.
So it is obvious in studying this more carefully that Peter was not talking about Jesus preaching to men in Hades, but about a proclamation to the spirits or angels enchained in Tartarus.
It has long been taught—based upon these verses—that Jesus went to Hades and preached a sermon to the dead. Hades, they say, is divided into two compartments: Hell for the unbelievers, and Paradise for the believers. Then after three days of preaching, Jesus rose from the dead, emptying Paradise of believers, and taking them to heaven with Him at His ascension.
All of this is a nice legend, but unfortunately, it is based primarily upon Peter’s statements that we have already quoted. And here we run into a problem, because Peter was not referring to men in Hades but of the angels (or spirits) that sinned. But as we will see in chapter three, Jesus went to Hades, but did not preach any sermons there.
Tartarus, then, is not the place where men are judged either before or after the Great White Throne Judgment. Peter’s Tartarus differs from Greek mythology, yet the Bible borrows the Greek terminology in order to describe a place that is different from Hades, the place where “spirits” and “angels” are imprisoned.
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def59
Mark
I went back to my concordances and saw where aion means more than just age or world. There are meanings that are relating to eternity. Especially with aionos. So I believe Dr. Fairchild was not wrong is saying that one word has several meanings depending on the context.
It sounds like you are forcing scriptures to line up with your belief.
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def59
Mark
I have given you scriptures and referred you to experts who have reffered you to more complete studies and yet you do not want to investigate them. So why should I listen to you?
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Sunesis
Def, did you read Mark's article at all?
It sounds like you're the one covering your ears. At least take the time and courtesy to read it.
Mark, great article.
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Mark Sanguinetti
Those that teach hellfire for the ungodly may also be convicting themselves to the same fate by their religious views. Notice Matt 7:21-23 below.
21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23 Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
NIV
By these scriptures anyone who does evil may be excluded from the kingdom of heaven. This includes even people with faith enough to confess Jesus, prophesy, drive out demons and perform miracles all in the name of Jesus. So if these openly religiously people are excluded where does that leave the rest of us? By the religion of hellfire and eternal punishment there are no second chances. These people would also go to hellfire to be tortured forever along with the majority of everyone who has ever lived. We all have sin and iniquity of some form. Conceivably with such a strict interpretation, hellfire as eternal torment may be the lot for everyone who has ever lived save the Lord Jesus himself.
Fortunately, I don't believe in such an interpretation of scripture. When Jesus says they will not be part of the kingdom of heaven, I associate that with the millennial kingdom at Jesus' return as king over the nations of the earth. For those people who are resurrected to serve Jesus in His kingdom they will be examples of the faith of Jesus himself. The openly religious people who Jesus says will be excluded from the kingdom for their evil works can still receive eternal life at the general second resurrection along with the rest of mankind.
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Mark Sanguinetti
From Stephen Jones' book "Judgements of the Divine Law" Chapter 2.
Gehenna
Gehenna is the only biblical “hell” that has a Hebrew origin in the Old Testament. It is simply the Greek spelling of the Hebrew phrase, Ge-Hinnom, “valley of Hinnom.” This, too, was a shortened form of the Old Testament place called “the valley of Ben-Hinnom” (son of Hinnom). This valley was at the base of the hill on which Jerusalem was built.
Gehenna is thus the only term of the three where we can use its biblical meaning. The valley of the son of Hinnom was the place where Baal-worshipping Israelites had sacrificed their children to Molech (Jer. 32:35).
35 And they built the high places of Baal that are in the valley of Ben-hinnom to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire to Molech, which I had not commanded them nor had it entered My mind that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.
For this reason the prophet said that it would become a “valley of slaughter” when God brought judgment upon Jerusalem (Jer. 19:6). This is also the passage where God directed the prophet to break the jar in that valley in the sight of the elders of Judah. Verses 10 and 11 read,
10 Then you are to break the jar in the sight of the men who accompany you 11 and say to them, Thus says the Lord of hosts, Just so shall I break this people and this city, even as one breaks a potter’s vessel, which cannot again be repaired. . . .
Jerusalem was destroyed shortly afterward by the armies of Babylon. But it was rebuilt a century later in the days of Nehemiah. The city was destroyed again in 70 A.D., this time by the Roman armies. But it was later rebuilt. It was destroyed a number of times during the past 2000 years, but each time it has been rebuilt. Currently, the city still stands. Hence, Jeremiah’s prophecy has only had its first fulfillment. There remains a later destruction of Jerusalem that will exhaust the prophecy of Jeremiah.
It is to that day Jesus was referring when He used the term Gehenna in Matt. 23:33. In that passage Jesus says,
29 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous, 30 and say, If we had been living in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partners with them in shedding the blood of the prophets. 31 Consequently, you bear witness against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Fill up then the measure of your fathers. 33 You serpents, you brood of vipers, how shall you escape the sentence of GEHENNA.
Later in the same passage, verse 37 Jesus applies this prophetic sentence of doom upon Jerusalem itself, saying,
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. 38 Behold, your house is being left to you desolate!
After Jeremiah linked Gehenna to the destruction of Jerusalem through his prophecy of the broken jar, the term itself began to take on a prophetic meaning beyond the mere geographical location. It became a symbol of divine judgment upon those who rejected the word of the Lord through the prophets (and Jesus Himself). Jerusalem had killed the prophets as well as the Son, and this sealed its ultimate fate as Jeremiah said. In fact, in the same passage in Matthew 23 Jesus prophesied a later time in which Jerusalem would fill its cup of iniquity just prior to its final destruction. Verses 34-36 read:
34 Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city. 35 that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 Truly I say to you, all these things shall come upon this generation [genea, “race, offspring”].
Jesus warned the believers to flee from Jerusalem when they saw the city surrounded by foreign armies. They did so in 66-67 A.D. at the first siege of Jerusalem. However, since Jerusalem was subsequently rebuilt, we see the same warning applicable today. Those believers living in Jerusalem and the Israeli state should take heed to Jesus’ words once again and flee the city before its destruction occurs. They should not count upon God saving the city at the last minute, for Jeremiah’s prophecy is very clear. The city and nation WILL be destroyed in such a way that it cannot be repaired again.
The term, Gehenna, was a Hebrew word that was not necessarily familiar to Greeks or Romans. So we find that Jesus used this term eleven times when speaking of judgment upon the unbelievers in His audience. (See Matt. 5:22, 29, 30; 10:28; 18:9, 23:15, 33; Mark 9:43, 45, 47; Luke 12:5.) His use of this term, instead of Hades (“the place or state of the dead”) gives his words a specific flavor, for He was warning them that if they did not believe His words, they would see Jeremiah’s prophecy of destruction fulfilled. And they, as individuals, would find themselves cast into Gehenna. Jeremiah had prophesied that that valley would become “the valley of slaughter.”
Jesus spoke more of Gehenna than of Hades. We will not do a complete study of Jesus’ words about Gehenna, but it would be useful to look at one specific passage in Mark 9:47, 48,
47 And if your eye causes you to stumble, cast it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes, to be cast into hell [Gehenna], 48 where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.
Jesus was quoting and commenting upon Isaiah 66:24, which says,
24 Then they shall go forth and look on the corpses of the men who have transgressed against Me. For their worm shall not die, and their fire shall not be quenched [Greek: “is not quenched”]; and they shall be an abhorrence to all mankind.
Isaiah was writing specifically about the old and new Jerusalem (66:10) and the new heavens and the new earth (66:22). That is why Jesus used the term Gehenna, rather than Hades. It was a symbol of judgment upon the wicked. By the time Jesus walked the earth, Gehenna was no longer used for human sacrifice, but was the city dump. It was also the place where they cast the unclaimed bodies of criminals that had been executed or crucified. Like many dumps today, Gehenna was always smoldering, because it was fueled by the trash that people threw into it. But because it also contained organic matter, dead animals and men, it also was continuously infested with maggots (“worms”).
It is often claimed that this is a picture of a burning “hell” torturing conscious sinners in an afterlife, but that is an extended and unwarranted interpretation of this passage. First of all, neither Isaiah nor Jesus meant to imply that the worms were immortal, but rather that there were always worms there. Maggots live for a while and die after breeding more maggots.
Likewise, the fire is not perpetual. The point is that no man can quench it. Only God can quench this fire. The NASB above shows the bias of the translators when it renders the phrase too strongly, “shall not be quenched.” The literal rendering of the phrase is simply “is not quenched,” that is, not by any man. That is, the fire of judgment will surely come, and no man can prevent it.
This word, Gehenna, refers to the destruction of Jerusalem and the slaughter occurring at this city’s final judgment, because its citizens had become God’s enemies. Most have been taught that the “enemies” being slaughtered are non-Jews of some kind who come from other nations to destroy the Israeli state. But the prophecies do not tell us that they are non-Jews; they say simply that they are God’s enemies who have come from those foreign lands. The way God defines His “enemies” in the law, the prophets, and in the New Testament shows that the judgment is upon the unbelieving Jews who are returning to the old land without first repenting of their hostility against Jesus Christ.
The law of tribulation found in Lev. 26:40-42 (and, indeed, the entire chapter) sets forth the principle that if the people were hostile to Yahweh (who is Jesus Christ in His pre-incarnate form), then Yahweh would be an enemy to them as well. The only way to stop being God’s enemy is to do as He says in Lev. 26:40-42,
40 If they confess their iniquity and the iniquity of their forefathers, in their unfaithfulness which they committed against Me, and also in their acting with hostility against Me— 41 I also was acting with hostility against them, to bring them into the land of their enemies—or if their uncircumcised heart becomes humbled so that they then make amends for their iniquity, 42 then I will remember My covenant with Jacob, and I will remember also My covenant with Isaac, and My covenant with Abraham as well, and I will remember the land.
An enemy is one who is not reconciled to another. As long as anyone—including any unbelieving Jew—is hostile to Jesus Christ, they are legally defined as God’s “enemies.” Furthermore, the laws of tribulation make it clear that God will not remember His covenant with Abraham until the people repent. In Isaiah 63:9, 10 the prophet gives us a specific example of this, saying,
9 In all their affliction He was afflicted, and the angel of His presence saved them; in His love and in His mercy He redeemed them; and He lifted them and carried them all the days of old. 10 But they rebelled and grieved His Holy Spirit; therefore, He turned Himself to become their enemy, He fought against them.
This happened all through the book of Judges, where God “sold them” into the hands of their enemies because of their sin. (See Judges 3:8 and 4:2.) God never reversed their captivities until the people repented.
God also became their enemy when He gave their land to Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon (Jer. 27:6). The captivity was finally reversed after 70 years, not only because it was the appointed time (Jer. 25:11; Dan. 9:2), but also because Daniel repented on behalf of his people for the sins of their fathers. This fulfilled the conditions of the law.
This idea carries over into the New Testament as well. In Matthew 22:1-7 Jesus told a parable about the servants who refused to come to the wedding. Verses 6 and 7 say,
6 And the rest seized his slaves and mistreated them and killed them. 7 But the king was enraged and sent his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and set their city on fire.
Jesus specifically called the inhabitants of Jerusalem “enemies” in Luke 19, where the “citizens” (i.e., citizens of Judea) hated Him and did not want Him to rule over them (Luke 19:14). Jesus’ verdict in verse 27 was,
27 But these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here [Jerusalem] and slay them in my presence.
The Apostle Paul likewise says in Philippians 3:18,
18 For many walk, of whom I often told you, and now tell you even weeping, that they are enemies of the cross of Christ.
Jesus prophesied that Jerusalem (Matt. 23:27, 28) would be destroyed with its temple (Matt. 24:2) because of the unbelief of its citizens. This occurred in 70 A.D., and God imposed upon them a “yoke of iron” (Deut. 28:48), which was God’s sentence of exile. In the early 1900’s the Zionist movement began, by which the Jews—still in a state of unbelief—decided to end their exile by force, rather than by fulfilling the conditions laid down in Lev. 26:40-42. Hence, their return as “enemies” put them in a position of fulfilling the prophecies of destruction in Gehenna. In their blindness they are being led to slaughter, and much of the evangelical Church encourages them as they go into the fire.
Yet God in His mercy has caused the majority of the Jews to remain in other countries, in spite of Zionist browbeating. Perhaps when the final destruction comes, many of these will be sufficiently shocked and disillusioned with Zionism and Judaism itself and will be ready to hear the Word of the Lord and accept Jesus as the Messiah.
The only other one who used the term, Gehenna, was Jesus’ brother, James, in James 3:6. James most likely wrote his epistle in Hebrew, using the term Ben-hinnom, but it has come down to us in Greek, where the translation reads Gehenna. He says that a man’s tongue “defiles the entire body and sets on fire the course of our life, and is set on fire by GEHENNA.” James was the leader of the Church in Jerusalem, and so his audience was familiar with the term, both its geographical location as well as its symbolic application. James wrote that the tongue is a like the rudder of a ship. Even as the rudder sets the course of the ship, so also does the tongue set “the course of our life.” And if that course was evil, then those individuals would go down with the ship.
Gehenna, then, was really a prophetic judgment directed against Jerusalem and its citizens who refused to believe the prophets or accept the Messiah. It did not directly refer to the actual state or place of the dead, which is Hades.
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def59
Mark,
I am impressed by your passionate defense of your position. Although, I am not moved to come to your side of the discussion, I will admit it has made me more sensitive of the topic and how I have approached it during my life.
I would like to recommend a book called "Cat and Dog Theology" by Bob Sjogren (show grin) and Gerald Robison.
They are directors of a missionary organization and their premise is that many Christians today live with only half a gospel.
You can find more at www.catanddogtheology.org
And Mark, this book has changed me in the sense that I was living under the theology that I was "saved from" hell. Now I am learning how I am "saved for" the purpose of bringing God glory in all that I do.
I still believe the scriptures point to punishment of some sort for rejecting God and Christ and the Holy Spirit, and I know millions perish without ever hearing the truth.
This pains me when I remember the Great Commandment.
So what has changed, you might add? Well, instead of fearing hell in my own life, and passing that on to others, I want to focus on what brings God glory and let that be my motivation.
If you want to talk about this, I am open.
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Mark Sanguinetti
Just what I need. Another class to take.
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def59
Mark
I know you like or have a preference for 19th century bible commentaries.
Here's an entry from Easton's 1897 bible dictionary:
Eternal death
The miserable fate of the wicked in hell (Matt. 25:46; Mark 3:29; Heb. 6:2; 2 Thess. 1:9; Matt. 18:8; 25:41; Jude 1:7). The Scripture as clearly teaches the unending duration of the penal sufferings of the lost as the "everlasting life," the "eternal life" of the righteous. The same Greek words in the New Testament (aion, aionios, aidios) are used to express (1) the eternal existence of God (1 Tim. 1:17; Rom. 1:20; 16:26); (2) of Christ (Rev. 1:18); (3) of the Holy Ghost (Heb. 9:14); and (4) the eternal duration of the sufferings of the lost (Matt. 25:46; Jude 1:6).
Their condition after casting off the mortal body is spoken of in these expressive words: "Fire that shall not be quenched" (Mark 9:45, 46), "fire unquenchable" (Luke 3:17), "the worm that never dies," the "bottomless pit" (Rev. 9:1), "the smoke of their torment ascending up for ever and ever" (Rev. 14:10, 11).
The idea that the "second death" (Rev. 20:14) is in the case of the wicked their absolute destruction, their annihilation, has not the slightest support from Scripture, which always represents their future as one of conscious suffering enduring for ever.
The supposition that God will ultimately secure the repentance and restoration of all sinners is equally unscriptural. There is not the slightest trace in all the Scriptures of any such restoration. Sufferings of themselves have no tendency to purify the soul from sin or impart spiritual life. The atoning death of Christ and the sanctifying power of the Holy Spirit are the only means of divine appointment for bringing men to repentance. Now in the case of them that perish these means have been rejected, and "there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins" (Heb. 10:26, 27).
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Mark Sanguinetti
Actually, if one does a simple Internet search for Greek Mythology Tartarus or Greek Mythology Hades one will discover the origin of the doctrine of eternal torment. These are the same words used in the New Testament. However, one should not base their religious views on Greek mythology. One should base it on the scriptures from both the Old and New Testaments.
I am getting ready for a planned business trip to Portland, Oregon and am leaving early tomorrow. I will not have access to a computer for a few days.
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def59
So I guess I have this thread all to myself.
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Mark Sanguinetti
Yes Def, for the next few days you have this thread all to yourself. Except of course if another poster surprises us. However, when I get back I will be posting a whole chapter on the biblical year of Jubilee. This is an interesting topic and one that is not well known, yet it was part of the Old Testament law. I am not sure the children of Israel ever completely applied this. However, since Jesus always fullfilled the law of God he will for all of mankind. It might take a while, but the will of the Father will ultimately be done. Here is a taste from the Nelson Bible Dictionary. Enjoy!
JUBILEE
[JOO bah lee] (blowing the trumpet)-the 50 th year after seven cycles of seven years, when specific instructions about property and slavery took effect (Lev 25:8-55).
The word jubilee comes from the Hebrew yobel, which means to be "jubilant" and to "exult." The word is related to the Hebrew word for ram's horn or trumpet. The Jubilee year was launched with a blast from a ram's horn on the Day of Atonement, signifying a call to joy, liberation, and the beginning of a year for "doing justice" and "loving mercy."
The 50th year was a special year in which to "proclaim liberty throughout all the land" (Lev 25:10). Specifically, individuals who had incurred debts and had sold themselves as slaves or servants to others were released from their debts and were set at liberty. Since all land belonged to God (Lev 25:23), land could not be sold; but land could be lost to another for reasons of debt. In the Year of Jubilee such land was returned to the families to whom it was originally given.
Like the SABBATICAL YEARS, the Year of Jubilee was a year for neither sowing nor reaping (Lev 25:11). The 50 th year became important in Israel's economic life. If anyone wished to redeem a person in debt, the price for doing so was calculated on the basis of the number of years remaining until the Jubilee.
Part of the reason why God established the Jubilee Year was to prevent the Israelites from oppressing one another (Lev 25:17). One effect of the Jubilee Year was to prevent a permanent system of classes. The Jubilee Year had a leveling effect on Israel's culture; it gave everyone a chance to start over, economically and socially. The Jubilee Year reminds one of God's interest in liberty; God wants people to be free (Luke 4:18-19). It also stands as a witness to God's desire for justice on earth and calls into question any social practices that lead to permanent bondag and loss of economic opportunity.
One may also see God's provision for the land's conservation in the call for the land to rest (Lev 25:11,18-22). The people were not to extract the earth's resources in a greedy manner.
The sabbatical year and presumably the Year of Jubilee were also characterized by instruction in the Law (Deut 31:9-13). In this way the people learned that God's demand to love and obey Him was directly related to his concern for the welfare of all the people of Israel.
(from Nelson's Illustrated Bible Dictionary, Copyright ©1986, Thomas Nelson Publishers)
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def59
Oh go on your trip already
:)-->
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def59
Mark,
You say and quote sources that the concept of hell i(fire and brimstorne) came from pagan sources. I came across this study on hell at www.graceonlinelibrary.org
The Biblical Doctrine of Hell Examined by Brian Schwertley
Here’s an excerpt. Is this what you are talking about?
Tophet
This eternal destruction is illustrated in many ways. One of the most terrifying is the designation Tophet or Gehenna. Tophet was a small valley south to southwest of Jerusalem which belonged to the sons of Hinnom. Tophet and Gehenna came to be designations of hell because of the terrible things which occurred there.
The wicked, unbelieving Jews of old would come to Tophet to sacrifice their children to the god Molech (Jer. 7:31). [4] At Tophet the idolatrous Jews placed a large, bronze statue of Molech, shaped like a man with outstretched arms and hands. A fire would be built within the statue. When the statue was red hot, the idol-worshipers would place their baby sons and daughters onto the outstretched, red-hot arms and hands. Their little infants would die the most painful, excruciating death imaginable: their skin would be seared off their bodies, their flesh would be roasted; they were burned alive.
The screams, cries and screeches of their own children’s agony was unbearable, even to these wicked, debauched parents. Therefore, drums were played to drown out the hideous screams of the tortured infants. Hence Tophet, in the Hebrew, signifies the beating of drums. [5] Therefore Tophet is a perfect symbol of hell where “God takes His rebellious children, casts them into the fire, [and] puts them into the arms of destruction” [6] forever away from Christ and His saving blood. Will there be drums to drown out your screams when you sink into the flames of hell—you who reject Christ and His gospel?
Tophet became associated with judgment and slaughter in Judah’s history. The armies of Babylon would come and slay so many people of Judah that there would be too many bodies to bury. Thousands upon thousands of bodies would lie in the open fields to be consumed by birds and animals. Tophet would be filled with the bloated, rotting bodies of rebellious Judah. “‘Behold, the days are coming,’ says the LORD, ‘when it will no more be called Tophet, or the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, but the Valley of Slaughter; for they will bury in Tophet until there is no room. The corpses of this people will be food for the birds of the heaven and for the beasts of the earth. And no one will frighten them away’” (Jer. 7:32-33). The historical Tophet and the gruesome events that occurred there are a foretaste of the destruction and torment of hell. God Almighty’s proclamation of damnation against unbelieving, rebellious Judah will echo forth from the lips of Jesus Christ against all those who reject the gospel. “And they shall go forth and look upon the corpses of the men who have transgressed against Me. For their worm does not die, and their fire is not quenched. They shall be an abhorrence to all flesh” (Isa. 66:24).
By the time of the birth of Jesus Christ, Tophet (or Gehenna) had become a garbage dump for Jerusalem. Gehenna was also used to dispose of the dead bodies of criminals. Fires burned continuously to consume the garbage. The garbage and dead bodies were also consumed by worms (maggots). In the same way, hell is the ash heap—the garbage dump—of all human history.
Those who believe in Jesus Christ and repent of their sins go to heaven or paradise (Jn. 3:18; 6:35, 40; Lk. 23:43; 24:47). But those who refuse to repent and submit to Jesus Christ become eternal garbage. Without Christ’s cleansing blood, sinners are polluted and unclean before God. Because of your sins, you are like a rotting corpse awaiting the fire of God. Jesus used the imagery of Gehenna to warn you to repent: “If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched; where ‘Their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.’ And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame, rather than having two feet, to be cast into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched; where ‘Their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.’ And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire; where ‘Their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.’ For everyone will be seasoned with fire, and every sacrifice will be seasoned with salt” (Mk. 9:43-49).
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CKnapp3
To all my fellow universalists,
If you really want to discuss universalism, click on the link below.
Tentmaker Forum
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def59
Mark, I took your post where you criticized Prof. Fairchild's answer and related it to him.
Here is his reply.
Your friend makes this statement: "In providing definitions for Greek words one must be disciplined to base their understanding solely on actual biblical usages of the word." This sounds very "Biblical". However, that statement is not realistic. The Biblical authors did not use a language that was unique to the Bible. The same Greek that was written in the New Testament was the SAME Greek language that was spoken on the street. The same is true today, Christians do not speak a different language than others in our world. Certainly SOME Greek words were nuanced in Christian circles; but these words do not lose their common or "secular" meaning. No scholar or lexicon derives the meaning of ancient Greek words "solely on actual biblical usages." Can you imagine Webster's Dictionary giving "unique" Christian meanings? Greek Lexicons are not written that way.
When your friend talks about the word "genea", he simply doesn't know what he is talking about. "Genea" and the associated cognate words deal with family relationships and has very little to do with time - which is what "aion" deals with. Aion and Genea can be translated "generation", but they carry different meanings. To give you an illustration: If you're attempting to describe how to do something, you say "this is the WAY." Here "way" means the manner in which something is done. On the other hand, the word "Way" can refer to a street or roadway. We can translate both of these concepts into the same English word "way", but the meaning of "way" is totally different in these two examples.
Again, when your friend states that "number 7 (a supernatural being) is perhaps in Fairchild's thinking because God is the God of the aeons" he simply does not know what he is talking about. The term "aeon" was used by Gnostics (and others) who believed that supernatural beings inhabited various realms between heaven and earth.
Honestly, if he won't even listen to what I'm saying why does he want input from me? Some people live in pumpkins and don't want anyone to tell them about the rest of the world.
"Evidently, this person is not going to accept ANY response except the one he has already embraced."
Mark,
I have to say I agree. Everywhere I have looked, your definition of aion is very narrow. This is especially true in light of the fact that the concordances I have seen, show the word is most often used in the context of eternity.
I believe you are practicing eisegesis (sp?) and looking for verses that prove your point rather than really seeing what scriptures say.
I ran across a verse it Matthew 7 that speaks of a narrow way to a gate that few will enter in and a broad path to gate that many will enter.
Not everyone will spend eternity with God. He doesn't tell us who will and won't because we are to give every man a reason for the hope we have.
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