Def, there are some great sites on the web about it. I tend to agree with it.
Basically, there is eternity, and there are Aeons, or ages in the eternity (like in the last 50 years there have been different presidential periods of time - but its all the same 50 years).
Those of us born again have eternal life. Those who are not born again may not live in the same or particular aeon of eternity we will. But all will eventually have their works "burned" - note, it does not say the person will be burned or destroyed! Just the works.
Christ is the author of salvation, not just for us humans, but for all of creation. Christ saves to the "uttermost." If many billions of people are going to "hell" (pretty much another mythical concept - research where it came from) then Christ does not save to the uttermost does he?
If some are not saved than Satan won. No ifs ands or buts.
I believe all humans, at some stage, will be saved, will bow before the Glory and love of God.
Now, the Bible does talk about Nephilim and descendants - those people of "iron" who will see no resurrection, those people who are the tares - but that's another thread.
I really believe Christ saves to the uttermost - all human beings without exception will be saved - maybe we will not all be in the same room in the "many mansions" the father has in store, but all, in some age of eternity will be with him.
This was the common Christian belief in the early years. "Religion" has perverted it.
I find it much easier to be loving to people, knowing, whether born again or not, that God loves them and they will be with him someday. Maybe not with the same spiritual bodies we have - maybe in a different way, but, Christ died for them too.
I believe that Christ died for all, but not all will accept Christ. Christ himself points to this when he says at the judgment, many will come touting their miracles but Christ will say "get away from me, I do not know you."
Christ knows his sheep, and they hear his voice.
To say all will be saved no matter what disgraces Christ's sacrifice. If I don't have to believe in Christ here, why should I live a moral life that is demanded of me in the Scriptures?
God is loving, but he is also just and cannot be mocked. Too often we judge him in human terms and cannot fathom how a loving God could send anyone to hell/punishment. But because he is just and loving, full of mercy slow to wrath, he has to judge and there are consequences for unbelief.
Yes every knee will bow and every tongue confess, but that is not equal to everyone being saved.
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
KJV
If every knee should bow, then why would God disgard anyone? If Paul who was a sinner and murderer of Christians can believe then why can't others also? It took a personal visit from Jesus to get Paul to believe. Otherwise he likely would not have. In the judgement of God, after the second resurrection of the unjust, if God reveals himself to all then why would not they too bow their knees and acknowledge Him? The above verses and others seem to indicate that one way or another God can cause even the most unworthy to have faith. It might take eons, but God is all powerfull and sovereign. If he can command such faith from Paul through his Son, why not with all others at the second resurrection? Once all men show their faith by bowing their knees then why would God not save them also?
"Every knee shall bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth."
I can't remember where, but somewhere in Revelations there is also scripture which back up what you posted.
Sunesis,
In my researching of Judaism, I found the Nephilim and descendants refers to spirit beings or angels which mated with humans. Those decendents were the giants of the earth.
quote: but if millions are going to hell, he's not the Saviour to the uttermost, is he?
Sunesis -- that would depend on your definition of *uttermost*. I hear what you're saying, and agree that it can be understood that way.
But I also see Def's point, when he said:
quote: To say all will be saved no matter what disgraces Christ's sacrifice.
This shifts the emphasis from the *millions not saved* definition of uttermost that you brought up, to what Christ did for Mankind -- whether or not His uttermost act was accepted, or rejected. :)-->
quote:To say all will be saved no matter what disgraces Christ's sacrifice.
Or perhaps it magnifies it, depends on your point of view. What would be bigger, a sacrifice that covered all(without exception ;)-->) because it's cleansing power was so far reaching, or one that only covered those who accepted it because they were in the right place at the right time, were in the right culture, had the right parents or who got witnessed to by the right missionaries?
Not saying that's what I believe, just that it's as valid as the statement quoted above.
Universalism has a nice ring to it and appeal. But while Jesus died once for all, he also knows his sheep and not everyone is a sheep. I would like everyone to be, but God is the final judge.
Salvation was once the sphere of the Jews, now it is open to all.
But if everyone gets to go to heaven anyway or least live eterally, then why did Christ die in the first place? Why did Christ command us to live a certain way if, in the end, we all get some sort of eternity with him anyway?
This biblical universalism sounds more like purgatory to me.
Isn't one of the central tenets of Christianity that humans are incapable of doing it themselves? That's why universalism is plausible and consistant with Christ's sacrifice. Whether it actually lines up with the bible is another question.
Universalism has a nice ring to it and appeal. But while Jesus died once for all, he also knows his sheep and not everyone is a sheep. I would like everyone to be, but God is the final judge.
Salvation was once the sphere of the Jews, now it is open to all.
But if everyone gets to go to heaven anyway or least live eterally, then why did Christ die in the first place? Why did Christ command us to live a certain way if, in the end, we all get some sort of eternity with him anyway?
This biblical universalism sounds more like purgatory to me.
And what's wrong with purgatory Def? I think you posted this to address me personally, so now I'm here to answer.
Jesus himself said that "no man can come to me except that the father draws him to me". It is in human nature to "reject Jesus". Without the grace of God, we are all nothing but a bunch of Hitlers.
It is also written By grace ye are saved, through faith, it is NOT OF YOURSELVES, it its THE GIFT OF GOD, NOT OF WORKS, LEST ANY MAN SHOULD BOAST!!!!!" (empahsis mine)
It is also written that God will do EVERYTHING according to the counsel of HIS WILL.
If anyone is going to "hell", then it was God's will all along, which is the official belief of Calvinism. Then God lied because he falsely testified that he wills all men to be saved, only to send a majority of them to hell instead. Calvinism is partially correct in that salvation is exclusively of God's own doing. Calvinism is wrong to say though that God is arbitrary and will choose to send people to "hell" for all eternity, just for the hell of it.
NOBODY has ever rejected Christ by his so-called own free will. Men are nothing but decandent sinners by nature, and without the grace of God he is just plain totally depraved!!!!!
We were born in sin!!!!!! We didn't choose to sin, contrary to popular belief.
Now this is God's ballgame and plan. If God wills Adolf Hitler to be saved, then HE WILL BE SAVED!!!!! PERIOD!!!!! Will Hitler have to give account for what he did? ABSOLUTELY!!!!
You opponents to universalism seem to have the impression that we believe everyone just escapes judgement. NOT SO! But judgement properly administered TEACHES RIGHTEOUSNESS!!!!!!!
So God wills all men to be saved, but it just isn't going to happen because men's free will rejects salvation you say. What?? Is God powerless, so weak in fact that man's free will is mightier??? Also who is The Soverign? Man or God????
Or maybe God can save everyone, he just doesn't want to (belief of Calvinism). Then God is not infinite in mercy and love.
People that oppose universal salvation are just arguing their own interpretation of the bible anyway. Ok, "Chuck, what do you think you are doing?" At least my interpretation puts God in a positive light, all merciful, all loving, and all powerful, and has made it clear that his will is going to be done! The interpretation of others demeans God, and puts man up as a soverign.
I guess if I made myself sovereign like most men have done, I too would think God will only save a few.
And if Hitler is not going to be saved, then what assurance do you have that you will be?? Because you "accepted Jesus"? Jesus himself said that "not everyone who calls me Lord shall enter into the Kingdom of Heaven, but he WHO DOES MY FATHER'S WILL"
And what IS the father's will? If God wills all men to be saved, then your calling is to preach the GOSPEL (which means GOOD NEWS) all of mankind. Most preachers preach admonishments of fate, and such a fate is beyond reality (burn forever in hell????), not to mention fairness. Hey, doesn't the world already oppress you???? Why be like the world? The bible says we should not be conformed to this world, be transformed by the renewing of our minds, that we may PROVE what is acceptable to God. Yet most Christians are conformed to this world, and they are too oblivious too see that fact.
If I tell someone his sins have been forgiven, and that he is saved, and he scoffs at me, what makes you people think he's going to listen to you when you threaten unreal fates like burn forever in hell???
But I do agree some people are so damned depraved that this is the only way they can see God's goodness, is to contrast it by the worst thing IMAGINABLE (yes, burn forever in hell is definitely the worst thing IMAGINABLE, but it doesn't make it real however!). But I prefer not to be taught by people who are clearly depraved.
Def, you talk about Jesus knowing his sheep. For one thing, I don't think everyone will inherit The Kingdom of Heaven, which is what you are equating living in paradise with. That is incorrect thinking. You can still live in paradise and not inherit The Kingdom.
You also probably want to quote verses that talk about people being cast into outer darkness, where's there's weeping and gnashing of teeth. Be it known, that this is a warning TO THE CHURCH, NOT THE WORLD!!!!!! The people in question were those who were appointed to carry out a mission of proclaiming the ministry of reconciliation and instead of performing the tasks that they should have, they deviated from it instead.
You people who are looking forward to rewards, take heed, you might come up empty handed. But be of good cheer nonetheless, for you will still get to live in paradise.
But if everyone gets to go to heaven anyway or least live eterally, then why did Christ die in the first place? Why did Christ command us to live a certain way if, in the end, we all get some sort of eternity with him anyway?
That is a common question that is asked by those who oppose the universalist beliefs.
For one thing Christ was slain BEFORE THE FOUNDATAIONS OF THE WORLD! The manifestiation of it took place 2000 years ago maybe, but in reality it happened perhaps billions of years ago.
It's all part of God's plan, he mapped it out that way, including the creation of Satan. I can't answer why God planned it this way, maybe he will tell us someday, but Jesus' destiny to die was forordained long before the fall at Eden.
Yes, Christ did command us to live a certain way, but why??? So we can go to heaven??? That's an awful selfish reason to live a righteous life, and therefore you have probably already deviated your mission!!!!!! There are people called to salvation now to carry out the mission of reconciliation. Most Christians have deviated that mission, placing man responsible for his own salvation, when the bible makes it crystal clear man CANNOT SAVE HIMSELF!!!!
I wouldn't be surprised if a man died in his sins, so to speak, if only a person would have said a kind word to heal his heart. Instead that same person admonished him that he was in danger of a horribly unimaginable doom and that he was responsible to take action to avert such a fate (usually such responsiblity comes in the form of "giving your life to Jesus") Well that messenger has now got to answer to God as to why he didn't give a kind word to that person, and may even have to answer why he gave an admonishment instead.
So you see, the real disciples of Christ are the ones responsible for carrying out the mission that WILL ABSOLUTELY fulfill God's will of ALL MEN BEING SAVED.
Furhtermore, what reward should a person get for telling someone that he's doomed and needs to believe in Jesus? He's lucky to get to live in paradise, with NO REWARDS.
If God's will is for ALL men to be saved, and God's will is not going to be fulfilled because of man's alledged free will, then why bother living a Christian life? If God's will IS NOT GOING TO BE FULFILLED, there's clearly no profit to living a life that is holy and pleasing to God, except perhaps to satisfy one's OWN SELFISH MOTIVES.
Not sure I agree with it, but there are some interesting pros and cons there.
Dave, I checked that website out. It appears Neal Punt's definition of biblical universalism is quite different from what is generally taught in that light.
According to Punt, There are few who will be hopelessly damned, but not before the gospel is made crystal clear to them, to which they will willfully reject. I personally find it impossible to believe that anyone can be so stupid as to knowingly and willfully reject a salvation so great. That's like someone in the Sahara Desert dying of thirst, and along comes someone with a nice huge jug of ICE COLD WATER, and the person just plain refuses it.
Hey, people who well fed and eat daily don't particularly like peanut butter and jelly sandwiches. After all, why eat peanut butter and jelly when you can have a couple of nice juicy hamburgers???? But let that same person go hungry for 3 days, and that peanut butter and jelly sandwich becomes much to be desired!!!!!! So when a person is desparately hungry, he will eat anything that is food. He is not going to continue to the point of starvation when there's food to eat, even if it's base. Therefore, I find a person, who sees his condition as a sinner and God's goodness for what it is quick to forgive, ready to repent.
After all, the goodness of God leads to repentenance. Who in their right frame of mind rejects God's goodness when they see it and know it?
Incidently, here's a better website that deals with the subject of universal salvation.
After reading more into Neal Punt's website, I find he's not a universalist at all by definition. He is in fact a Calvinist, who put a different spin on the subject of universalism.
He has to reject the idea that "every knee shall bow, and every tongue shall confess, that Jesus Christ is Lord", which is one of the main themes of true biblical universalism. For according to Punt, and Def59 for that matter, some will not bow and confess at all.
To say all will be saved no matter what disgraces Christ's sacrifice.
Actually def, the opposite it true, the damnation of any person disgraces the sacrifice of Christ. And if Christ didn't die for them, maybe he didn't die for you either.
quote:
God is loving, but he is also just and cannot be mocked. Too often we judge him in human terms and cannot fathom how a loving God could send anyone to hell/punishment. But because he is just and loving, full of mercy slow to wrath, he has to judge and there are consequences for unbelief.
Who told you God cannot be mocked?? Of course he can be mocked. But that's not the topic here.
As far as judging God in human terms, I think you did just that def. It's man who wants to send his enemies to hell believe it or not, NOT GOD!!!!
Def, did you know we are all EQUALLY GUILTY????. Therefore why should YOU be saved, and not Hitler? Hitler killed 6,000,000 Jews. It it weren't for God's grace, YOU might want to kill 100,000,000,000 people, who knows??? Don't take this personally def, I speak for all of us. :)-->
quote:
Yes every knee will bow and every tongue confess, but that is not equal to everyone being saved.
If those people are not saved, then why would they bow their knees and confess the Lord Jesus? Are they being FORCED to do it??? HEY, WHAT HAPPENED TO FREE WILL???????:D--> :D--> :D--> :D--> :D--> :D--> :D--> :D-->
This is going to sound crazy, but from my research on Nephilim (the seed of iron that cannot mingle/cleave to man's seed - clay), these are the people - the genetic descendants of those who left their first estate and corrupted the human race, who the lake of fire is reserved for.
Daniel (or Isaiah - I'm at work now, can't look it up) talk about these people whom there is no resurrection for.
These hybrids, so to speak, of Angel and man, this despicable thing that was done, the corruption of the human race so that there could be no savior, these are the tares who must be winnowed. The ones who committed this abomination and left their spiritual habitat and estate are the ones in chains whom Jesus went and preached to. They and their offspring are doomed.
Once I started studying this, it became very obvious - God's wonderful creation - man was created to be with him. ALL knees shall bow - no human exception.
Was Hitler a nephilim (the word doesn't just mean literal giant), was Stalin, was Ted Bundy?
There are just some acts that are so despicable that go beyond possession. I read a book a few years ago by the man who started the FBI behavioural profiler unit and has interviewd many serial killers. He said, the only way to describe them, is they are like aliens - we humans cannot comprehend them. Apt description I think.
The spiritual war is God, v. Satan and his corruption of mankind, which God had to send a flood in Noah's time. Why was Noah saved? Because he was perfect. What was perfect about him? He was the only person left whose genetic line had not been corrupted. If Satan could have corrupted all human beings, which he had done to that point, the promised Savior in Gen. 1 could not have come.
Thus, Satan knew God would put enemy between his seed (nephilim) and God's seed (the Christ).
Sorry for the derail, but I think when we wonder why should someone like a Hitler not have justice - maybe he was a man of iron, not of clay and will suffer eternal death.
To say all will be saved no matter what disgraces Christ's sacrifice.
Actually def, the opposite it true, the damnation of any person disgraces the sacrifice of Christ. And if Christ didn't die for them, maybe he didn't die for you either.
I agree he died for all mankind. I just cannot find it in scripture where everybody gets in the door. Jesus says narrow is the path to heaven, but wide is the path to destruction.
quote:
God is loving, but he is also just and cannot be mocked. Too often we judge him in human terms and cannot fathom how a loving God could send anyone to hell/punishment. But because he is just and loving, full of mercy slow to wrath, he has to judge and there are consequences for unbelief.
Who told you God cannot be mocked?? Of course he can be mocked. But that's not the topic here.
CKanpp, here's where I got it from. Galatians 6:7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows.
Sin will be found out.
As far as judging God in human terms, I think you did just that def. It's man who wants to send his enemies to hell believe it or not, _NOT GOD!!!!_
Again, you miss my point. I believe God wants ALL men to be saved, but we know not everyone will believe. People reject God all the time.
Did not Jesus say he would confess before the father those who confessed him in public. And is not the opposite true?
Def, did you know we are all _EQUALLY GUILTY????_. Therefore why should _YOU_ be saved, and not Hitler? Hitler killed 6,000,000 Jews. It it weren't for God's grace, _YOU_ might want to kill 100,000,000,000 people, who knows??? Don't take this personally def, I speak for all of us. :)-->
No argument here CKnapp. God's grace is unfathomable to us.I have done nothing to deserve it and never will on my own. I believe it is possible for anyone to turn to God while they are alive here — so even Hitler could have believed at the end. I heard Ted Bundy and Jeffrey Dahmer did.
But if people die in their sins, that's it.
And if there is no punishment for unbelief, why should any of us want to serve God anyway? If we are going to go heaven anyway, why believe, love, live right or treat people nice?
It seems to me this doctrine comes from a dark place. It seems to make sense in this age of tolerance, but something doesn't sound right.
quote:
Yes every knee will bow and every tongue confess, but that is not equal to everyone being saved.
If those people are not saved, then why would they bow their knees and confess the Lord Jesus? Are they being _FORCED_ to do it??? _HEY, WHAT HAPPENED TO FREE WILL???????_ :D--> :D--> :D--> :D--> :D--> :D--> :D--> :D-->
People who rejected God here, will see him for who he is at the white throne. But I believe it will be too late.
That is why I want people to come to know God now. There might not be a second chance.
I agree he died for all mankind. I just cannot find it in scripture where everybody gets in the door. Jesus says narrow is the path to heaven, but wide is the path to destruction.
It is written, "as ALL died in Adam, so shall ALL be made alive in Christ".
If Hitler is not going to be made alive in Christ, then in whom did he die? Adam? NO CHANCE! If Hitler died in Adam, then he is going to be made just as alive in Christ as you and I. PERIOD!!! So in order for Hitler not to be made alive in Christ, he would have had to die by some other fashion. Is a life in Christ hell??? Perhaps in the mind of the wicked, it will start out that way, which would of course be his punishment. But as the chaff is burned away, a righteous nature will emerge. Hey, how was YOUR OWN conversion, def??? Was it all peaches and cream????? Then either you were a good little boy (It is written, "There is nobody righteous, NO NOT ONE!), or your appointment with judgement is actually pending. Maybe you won't get the punishemt Hitler is worthy of, but you will have to face judgement just the same. (It is also written, "Whoever does great evil will get many lashes, but he who does very little evil will only get a few") And the sin in your own life will have to be dealt with.
quote:
CKnapp3 asks "Who told you God cannot be mocked?? Of course he can be mocked. But that's not the topic here."
Def59's answer: CKanpp, here's where I got it from. Galatians 6:7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows.
Sin will be found out.
Def, number one, almost everyone disregards the context of that verse in Galatians chapter 6. Back to that in a moment.
Number two, verse 7 of Galatians, chapt. 6 is poorly worded. Not to mention you misread the verse. (what version of the bible are you using?). It should read: "be not deceived, God is not being mocked, for whatever a man sows, also shall he reap." It doesn't imply that God cannot be mocked, only that he IS (PRESENT TENSE!!!!!) not (the word "being" is missing from that verse and should be there) mocked. The word "is" doesn't imply capabilty, but rather state of being. (Any English scholar should know THAT)
While it is true that what goes around comes around, the context was talking about a bible student giving tribute to his teacher. Read the verse proceeding verse 7, and the verse afterward. People thought that a bible student giving tribute to his teacher was in fact mocking God. (And incidently, not to justify VPW, but there was nothing wrong with us giving him tribute also per se, because at the time we thought him to be a teacher of sound doctrine. Only difference is we now know better, seeing VPW was NOT sowing to the spirit, but to his flesh!) The context was advising us that such tribute is acceptable to God and is not a form of mockery.
Still think God cannot be mocked????? What the hell do you think IDOLATRY is??????? That is the BASEST form of God mockery. If God cannot cannot be truly mocked, then why does He say he is a JEALOUS God, when it comes to idol worship??????
quote:
Webster's definition of "mock":
Main Entry: mock
Pronunciation: 'm? 'mok
Function: verb
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French mocquer
transitive senses
1 : to treat with contempt or ridicule : DERIDE
2 : to disappoint the hopes of
3 : DEFY, CHALLENGE
4 a : to imitate (as a mannerism) closely : MIMIC b : to mimic in sport or derision
It's the 4th definition that applies to the context of Galatians, though God could definitely be "mocked" in any of the 4 definitions given.
So I'm afraid you're misguided in your understanding of Galatians, chapt. 6.
quote:
CKnapp3 said: As far as judging God in human terms, I think you did just that def. It's man who wants to send his enemies to hell believe it or not, _NOT GOD!!!!_
Def's answer: Again, you miss my point. I believe God wants ALL men to be saved, but we know not everyone will believe. People reject God all the time.
Did not Jesus say he would confess before the father those who confessed him in public. And is not the opposite true?
Defendant: "Lord, didn't I confess your name before men in public??" (and really, he did!)
Jesus: "Depart from me you worker of iniquity, I never knew you!"
The defendant's consequence of course is not getting a crown or any inheritance, he will still however get to live as a citizen in paradise.
What point did I miss? Of course people reject God all the time, AND SO DID YOU until you were given the gift of the Holy Spirit! This fact applies to ALL OF US!!!!
quote:
But if people die in their sins, that's it.
And if there is no punishment for unbelief, why should any of us want to serve God anyway? If we are going to go heaven anyway, why believe, love, live right or treat people nice?
It seems to me this doctrine comes from a dark place. It seems to make sense in this age of tolerance, but something doesn't sound right.
For starters, God has concluded US ALL in unbelief!!!!! So I guess we will all be punished now :D-->
So the only reason you live a righteous life is to gain entry into heaven??? Sounds like you are lacking a heart. Maybe that's what you want YOUR heaven to be like. But what about God's??? People who are truly kind hearted don't need a cheap incentive to do right by their fellow man. They are motivated exclusively by love!
This doctrine comes from a dark place????? Hmmm, didn't Jesus warn about calling light darkness, and calling darkness light?? If Jesus would accuse me of calling the beliefs I hold darkness that I'm calling light, then He's got a lot of explaining to do. This casting out people you don't like sounds more like darkness. The Pharisees were champions at that. You say it doesn't sound right???? That's because I think you desire a heaven of your own design, and I think we were all guilty of doing that at one time or another. But that's only human nature to want our enemies removed from our society. Remember, that we are to forsake our human nature and walk spiritually. Jesus said to "love your enemies". Also, if you are an heir to The Kingdom, then you are going to decide the fate of those being judged. Def, answer me this, are you going to judge those before you the way God judged you????? Or are you going to be like the unmerciful debtor in that parable????
What did Jesus and Abel have in common????
Both were MURDERED!
Abel,(who is a sinner) says: "Avenge my enemies!"
Jesus,(who is sinless) says: "Forgive them father, for they know not what they do!"
quote:
Yes every knee will bow and every tongue confess, but that is not equal to everyone being saved.
People who rejected God here, will see him for who he is at the white throne. But I believe it will be too late.
That is why I want people to come to know God now. There might not be a second chance.
Who in the hell told you that you are saved by CHANCE??????? It's by GRACE you are saved!!!!!!!!!!!!! NOT CHANCE!!!!!!! How many times do I have to say this???? --> Do you take God to play a game of roulette, putting our very lives at risk???? Besides, anyone who plays gambling games to gain riches obviously makes money their god (soverign), instead of being Lord over their money, and anyone who knows about gambling can tell you, the house has the advantage!!!!! Therefore for God to play roulette with our lives at stake would definetly make God bow down to our sovereignty. And Satan, who would be the "house" in this case has definitely the advantage. Some God!!!!!!!! That kind of God isn't even worthy to urinate on, let alone worship!!!! If that's your God, you can have him!!!!
And the idea that "tomorrow is too late" is not even biblical, why do people insist otherwise?????
In closing let me ask the following question: Is it true NOTHING is IMPOSSIBLE with God????
YES???? Then is it impossible for God to change Hitler from a notorious and evil tryant to quite possibly the holiest saint you ever met????
NO you say???? Next question: Why won't God do it then???? Is he a respecter of persons after all??????
Now, the Bible does talk about Nephilim and descendants - those people of "iron" who will see no resurrection, those people who are the tares - but that's another thread.
Hi Sunesis,
Well, you and I agree about 99% except for that piece of logic. I have the teaching John Schoenheit (of CES) gave on Genesis Six. So I'm familiar with that study. However I also believe that NOTHING is impossible with God.
The question I ask you is that the Nephilim will see NO resurrection whatsoever, not even unto judgement?????? In otherwords, they die once, never to be seen again?? I might be able to accept THAT logic, but John Schoenheit does teach that they are going to be judged. I assume that it is necessary that they should be conscious of this judgement, so a resurrection is in order. But then I could be wrong, they could be judged without their knowing it, so they will just plain die, never to rise again, not even to be made aware of their judgement.
Now why would God destroy them in their evil nature, and not rebuild them in a holy and acceptable nature???? Why even judge them if the final outcome is total destruction????
But then again we ARE talking about angels rather than men. But what about the freakish offspring???? They also have a human nature that God wills to save. So what happens? Perhaps their evil side will be destroyed, and anything that is pure will come about in the outcome.
One more interesting thing to point out, according to Schoenheit's teaching, there are NO Nephilim left here on earth. I guess that's a load off OUR minds, eh Sunesis :)-->
Hi Cknapp. I've had no involvement in TWI or any other offshoots. I have no idea what Scheonheit has taught.
It is written - I will look it up later, where the nephilim are not resurrected. They are not human. They were not "created" by God, as was the angelic host, spiritual beings, and humans. Resurrection and new bodies is for humans. The fact that God's created fallen angels, under Satan's dominion, left their habitat and mated with humans and bore these monstrosities is one of the reasons God sent the flood. The human line was almost totally corrupted. The Bible says the last days will be like the last days of Noah.
I believe there will be another eruption of these beings. I believe many of the "gods" people worshipped in the pre-flood time were these fallen angels who roamed the earth or their offspring and took the woman they liked. If you look at pictures of some of the kings of Sumaria, they are absolutely huge.
I have even wondered, since Satan had fallen from heaven, and his domain is now the earth, if what Eve saw in the Garden, that made her want to sin so as to be like a "god" was the beauty of these fallen angelic creatures she had seen. Maybe she and Adam felt they were missing out on something and wanted to be like them.
The Bible says, after the flood, there was another eruption. As when coming out of the promised land the Israelite spies saw them and were grasshoppers compared to them. Also, Israel was commanded to wipe these people out, including the Cainanites. I never understood why, in the OT God was always having certain people destroyed - now I understand, it is because they were nephilim. I do believe, there are certain people today and in the past, those who commit atrocities, come to great power, commit mass murder and enjoy it, who are descendants of these nephilim - those who Israel disobeyed God and did not destroy.
Read the book of Enoch. He is quoted many times in the bible and N.T. It was commonly known, read and believed - he was a great prophet. Of course, as the Catholic Church came to power, they effectively had almost every copy destroyed. Enoch is the one who pleased God and God had translated.
There's a lot of stuff. I think the church is having an awakening in this field.
Sunesis, I understand where you are coming from seeing as I have studied the subject of Nephilim myself. Do you believe the Nephilim, if there are any remnants here on earth, will just cease to exist when they die, or will they be awakened for judgement first, then destroyed?
But whatever the case is, I still think God is unlimited in His power, and can change the nature of nephilim from one that is evil, into one that is holy and pleasing to Him. I believe NOTHING is impossible with God. Even if the nephilim are destroyed, God can rebuild them into something and give them a new nature to boot. Look what He did, and will do for us :)-->. Granted, we are powerless to rebuild from the ruins, but not God.
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Sunesis
Def, there are some great sites on the web about it. I tend to agree with it.
Basically, there is eternity, and there are Aeons, or ages in the eternity (like in the last 50 years there have been different presidential periods of time - but its all the same 50 years).
Those of us born again have eternal life. Those who are not born again may not live in the same or particular aeon of eternity we will. But all will eventually have their works "burned" - note, it does not say the person will be burned or destroyed! Just the works.
Christ is the author of salvation, not just for us humans, but for all of creation. Christ saves to the "uttermost." If many billions of people are going to "hell" (pretty much another mythical concept - research where it came from) then Christ does not save to the uttermost does he?
If some are not saved than Satan won. No ifs ands or buts.
I believe all humans, at some stage, will be saved, will bow before the Glory and love of God.
Now, the Bible does talk about Nephilim and descendants - those people of "iron" who will see no resurrection, those people who are the tares - but that's another thread.
I really believe Christ saves to the uttermost - all human beings without exception will be saved - maybe we will not all be in the same room in the "many mansions" the father has in store, but all, in some age of eternity will be with him.
This was the common Christian belief in the early years. "Religion" has perverted it.
I find it much easier to be loving to people, knowing, whether born again or not, that God loves them and they will be with him someday. Maybe not with the same spiritual bodies we have - maybe in a different way, but, Christ died for them too.
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def59
Interesting.
I believe that Christ died for all, but not all will accept Christ. Christ himself points to this when he says at the judgment, many will come touting their miracles but Christ will say "get away from me, I do not know you."
Christ knows his sheep, and they hear his voice.
To say all will be saved no matter what disgraces Christ's sacrifice. If I don't have to believe in Christ here, why should I live a moral life that is demanded of me in the Scriptures?
God is loving, but he is also just and cannot be mocked. Too often we judge him in human terms and cannot fathom how a loving God could send anyone to hell/punishment. But because he is just and loving, full of mercy slow to wrath, he has to judge and there are consequences for unbelief.
Yes every knee will bow and every tongue confess, but that is not equal to everyone being saved.
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Sunesis
Well, maybe in this life people won't accept him.
but if millions are going to hell, he's not the Saviour to the uttermost, is he?
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Mark Sanguinetti
Phil 2:8-11
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
KJV
If every knee should bow, then why would God disgard anyone? If Paul who was a sinner and murderer of Christians can believe then why can't others also? It took a personal visit from Jesus to get Paul to believe. Otherwise he likely would not have. In the judgement of God, after the second resurrection of the unjust, if God reveals himself to all then why would not they too bow their knees and acknowledge Him? The above verses and others seem to indicate that one way or another God can cause even the most unworthy to have faith. It might take eons, but God is all powerfull and sovereign. If he can command such faith from Paul through his Son, why not with all others at the second resurrection? Once all men show their faith by bowing their knees then why would God not save them also?
"Every knee shall bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth."
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Abigail
Mark,
I can't remember where, but somewhere in Revelations there is also scripture which back up what you posted.
Sunesis,
In my researching of Judaism, I found the Nephilim and descendants refers to spirit beings or angels which mated with humans. Those decendents were the giants of the earth.
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dmiller
Didn't know about Biblical Universalism (had heard the term, that's all), until I took a look at THIS SITE.
Not sure I agree with it, but there are some interesting pros and cons there.
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dmiller
Sunesis -- that would depend on your definition of *uttermost*. I hear what you're saying, and agree that it can be understood that way.
But I also see Def's point, when he said:
This shifts the emphasis from the *millions not saved* definition of uttermost that you brought up, to what Christ did for Mankind -- whether or not His uttermost act was accepted, or rejected.
:)-->
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Oakspear
Not saying that's what I believe, just that it's as valid as the statement quoted above.
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sirguessalot
a good simple question might be:
is one's perception of "Christ" universal or not?
is one's Christ merely universal but...
...but what? honestly
if the mind of Christ is where enmity and seperation end...
...does it?
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def59
Universalism has a nice ring to it and appeal. But while Jesus died once for all, he also knows his sheep and not everyone is a sheep. I would like everyone to be, but God is the final judge.
Salvation was once the sphere of the Jews, now it is open to all.
But if everyone gets to go to heaven anyway or least live eterally, then why did Christ die in the first place? Why did Christ command us to live a certain way if, in the end, we all get some sort of eternity with him anyway?
This biblical universalism sounds more like purgatory to me.
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Oakspear
def:
Isn't one of the central tenets of Christianity that humans are incapable of doing it themselves? That's why universalism is plausible and consistant with Christ's sacrifice. Whether it actually lines up with the bible is another question.
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sirguessalot
def, perhaps its not just a matter of if, but even moreso when.
one can choose to "enter heaven" now, or later, or much later, or much much later, or much much much much later, etc....
but eventually, everything and being is gonna figure it out one way or another.
is God patient enough?
has eternity got a reason to hurry or stop?
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CKnapp3
And what's wrong with purgatory Def? I think you posted this to address me personally, so now I'm here to answer.
Jesus himself said that "no man can come to me except that the father draws him to me". It is in human nature to "reject Jesus". Without the grace of God, we are all nothing but a bunch of Hitlers.
It is also written By grace ye are saved, through faith, it is NOT OF YOURSELVES, it its THE GIFT OF GOD, NOT OF WORKS, LEST ANY MAN SHOULD BOAST!!!!!" (empahsis mine)
It is also written that God will do EVERYTHING according to the counsel of HIS WILL.
If anyone is going to "hell", then it was God's will all along, which is the official belief of Calvinism. Then God lied because he falsely testified that he wills all men to be saved, only to send a majority of them to hell instead. Calvinism is partially correct in that salvation is exclusively of God's own doing. Calvinism is wrong to say though that God is arbitrary and will choose to send people to "hell" for all eternity, just for the hell of it.
NOBODY has ever rejected Christ by his so-called own free will. Men are nothing but decandent sinners by nature, and without the grace of God he is just plain totally depraved!!!!!
We were born in sin!!!!!! We didn't choose to sin, contrary to popular belief.
Now this is God's ballgame and plan. If God wills Adolf Hitler to be saved, then HE WILL BE SAVED!!!!! PERIOD!!!!! Will Hitler have to give account for what he did? ABSOLUTELY!!!!
You opponents to universalism seem to have the impression that we believe everyone just escapes judgement. NOT SO! But judgement properly administered TEACHES RIGHTEOUSNESS!!!!!!!
So God wills all men to be saved, but it just isn't going to happen because men's free will rejects salvation you say. What?? Is God powerless, so weak in fact that man's free will is mightier??? Also who is The Soverign? Man or God????
Or maybe God can save everyone, he just doesn't want to (belief of Calvinism). Then God is not infinite in mercy and love.
People that oppose universal salvation are just arguing their own interpretation of the bible anyway. Ok, "Chuck, what do you think you are doing?" At least my interpretation puts God in a positive light, all merciful, all loving, and all powerful, and has made it clear that his will is going to be done! The interpretation of others demeans God, and puts man up as a soverign.
I guess if I made myself sovereign like most men have done, I too would think God will only save a few.
And if Hitler is not going to be saved, then what assurance do you have that you will be?? Because you "accepted Jesus"? Jesus himself said that "not everyone who calls me Lord shall enter into the Kingdom of Heaven, but he WHO DOES MY FATHER'S WILL"
And what IS the father's will? If God wills all men to be saved, then your calling is to preach the GOSPEL (which means GOOD NEWS) all of mankind. Most preachers preach admonishments of fate, and such a fate is beyond reality (burn forever in hell????), not to mention fairness. Hey, doesn't the world already oppress you???? Why be like the world? The bible says we should not be conformed to this world, be transformed by the renewing of our minds, that we may PROVE what is acceptable to God. Yet most Christians are conformed to this world, and they are too oblivious too see that fact.
If I tell someone his sins have been forgiven, and that he is saved, and he scoffs at me, what makes you people think he's going to listen to you when you threaten unreal fates like burn forever in hell???
But I do agree some people are so damned depraved that this is the only way they can see God's goodness, is to contrast it by the worst thing IMAGINABLE (yes, burn forever in hell is definitely the worst thing IMAGINABLE, but it doesn't make it real however!). But I prefer not to be taught by people who are clearly depraved.
Def, you talk about Jesus knowing his sheep. For one thing, I don't think everyone will inherit The Kingdom of Heaven, which is what you are equating living in paradise with. That is incorrect thinking. You can still live in paradise and not inherit The Kingdom.
You also probably want to quote verses that talk about people being cast into outer darkness, where's there's weeping and gnashing of teeth. Be it known, that this is a warning TO THE CHURCH, NOT THE WORLD!!!!!! The people in question were those who were appointed to carry out a mission of proclaiming the ministry of reconciliation and instead of performing the tasks that they should have, they deviated from it instead.
You people who are looking forward to rewards, take heed, you might come up empty handed. But be of good cheer nonetheless, for you will still get to live in paradise.
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CKnapp3
That is a common question that is asked by those who oppose the universalist beliefs.
For one thing Christ was slain BEFORE THE FOUNDATAIONS OF THE WORLD! The manifestiation of it took place 2000 years ago maybe, but in reality it happened perhaps billions of years ago.
It's all part of God's plan, he mapped it out that way, including the creation of Satan. I can't answer why God planned it this way, maybe he will tell us someday, but Jesus' destiny to die was forordained long before the fall at Eden.
Yes, Christ did command us to live a certain way, but why??? So we can go to heaven??? That's an awful selfish reason to live a righteous life, and therefore you have probably already deviated your mission!!!!!! There are people called to salvation now to carry out the mission of reconciliation. Most Christians have deviated that mission, placing man responsible for his own salvation, when the bible makes it crystal clear man CANNOT SAVE HIMSELF!!!!
I wouldn't be surprised if a man died in his sins, so to speak, if only a person would have said a kind word to heal his heart. Instead that same person admonished him that he was in danger of a horribly unimaginable doom and that he was responsible to take action to avert such a fate (usually such responsiblity comes in the form of "giving your life to Jesus") Well that messenger has now got to answer to God as to why he didn't give a kind word to that person, and may even have to answer why he gave an admonishment instead.
So you see, the real disciples of Christ are the ones responsible for carrying out the mission that WILL ABSOLUTELY fulfill God's will of ALL MEN BEING SAVED.
Furhtermore, what reward should a person get for telling someone that he's doomed and needs to believe in Jesus? He's lucky to get to live in paradise, with NO REWARDS.
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CKnapp3
Def, here's a question for you:
If God's will is for ALL men to be saved, and God's will is not going to be fulfilled because of man's alledged free will, then why bother living a Christian life? If God's will IS NOT GOING TO BE FULFILLED, there's clearly no profit to living a life that is holy and pleasing to God, except perhaps to satisfy one's OWN SELFISH MOTIVES.
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CKnapp3
Dave, I checked that website out. It appears Neal Punt's definition of biblical universalism is quite different from what is generally taught in that light.
According to Punt, There are few who will be hopelessly damned, but not before the gospel is made crystal clear to them, to which they will willfully reject. I personally find it impossible to believe that anyone can be so stupid as to knowingly and willfully reject a salvation so great. That's like someone in the Sahara Desert dying of thirst, and along comes someone with a nice huge jug of ICE COLD WATER, and the person just plain refuses it.
Hey, people who well fed and eat daily don't particularly like peanut butter and jelly sandwiches. After all, why eat peanut butter and jelly when you can have a couple of nice juicy hamburgers???? But let that same person go hungry for 3 days, and that peanut butter and jelly sandwich becomes much to be desired!!!!!! So when a person is desparately hungry, he will eat anything that is food. He is not going to continue to the point of starvation when there's food to eat, even if it's base. Therefore, I find a person, who sees his condition as a sinner and God's goodness for what it is quick to forgive, ready to repent.
After all, the goodness of God leads to repentenance. Who in their right frame of mind rejects God's goodness when they see it and know it?
Incidently, here's a better website that deals with the subject of universal salvation.
Tentmaker Ministries
After reading more into Neal Punt's website, I find he's not a universalist at all by definition. He is in fact a Calvinist, who put a different spin on the subject of universalism.
He has to reject the idea that "every knee shall bow, and every tongue shall confess, that Jesus Christ is Lord", which is one of the main themes of true biblical universalism. For according to Punt, and Def59 for that matter, some will not bow and confess at all.
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CKnapp3
Actually def, the opposite it true, the damnation of any person disgraces the sacrifice of Christ. And if Christ didn't die for them, maybe he didn't die for you either.
Who told you God cannot be mocked?? Of course he can be mocked. But that's not the topic here.
As far as judging God in human terms, I think you did just that def. It's man who wants to send his enemies to hell believe it or not, NOT GOD!!!!
Def, did you know we are all EQUALLY GUILTY????. Therefore why should YOU be saved, and not Hitler? Hitler killed 6,000,000 Jews. It it weren't for God's grace, YOU might want to kill 100,000,000,000 people, who knows??? Don't take this personally def, I speak for all of us.
:)-->
If those people are not saved, then why would they bow their knees and confess the Lord Jesus? Are they being FORCED to do it??? HEY, WHAT HAPPENED TO FREE WILL???????
:D--> 
:D--> 
:D--> 
:D--> 
:D--> 
:D--> 
:D--> 
:D-->
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Sunesis
This is going to sound crazy, but from my research on Nephilim (the seed of iron that cannot mingle/cleave to man's seed - clay), these are the people - the genetic descendants of those who left their first estate and corrupted the human race, who the lake of fire is reserved for.
Daniel (or Isaiah - I'm at work now, can't look it up) talk about these people whom there is no resurrection for.
These hybrids, so to speak, of Angel and man, this despicable thing that was done, the corruption of the human race so that there could be no savior, these are the tares who must be winnowed. The ones who committed this abomination and left their spiritual habitat and estate are the ones in chains whom Jesus went and preached to. They and their offspring are doomed.
Once I started studying this, it became very obvious - God's wonderful creation - man was created to be with him. ALL knees shall bow - no human exception.
Was Hitler a nephilim (the word doesn't just mean literal giant), was Stalin, was Ted Bundy?
There are just some acts that are so despicable that go beyond possession. I read a book a few years ago by the man who started the FBI behavioural profiler unit and has interviewd many serial killers. He said, the only way to describe them, is they are like aliens - we humans cannot comprehend them. Apt description I think.
The spiritual war is God, v. Satan and his corruption of mankind, which God had to send a flood in Noah's time. Why was Noah saved? Because he was perfect. What was perfect about him? He was the only person left whose genetic line had not been corrupted. If Satan could have corrupted all human beings, which he had done to that point, the promised Savior in Gen. 1 could not have come.
Thus, Satan knew God would put enemy between his seed (nephilim) and God's seed (the Christ).
Sorry for the derail, but I think when we wonder why should someone like a Hitler not have justice - maybe he was a man of iron, not of clay and will suffer eternal death.
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def59
People who rejected God here, will see him for who he is at the white throne. But I believe it will be too late.
That is why I want people to come to know God now. There might not be a second chance.
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sky4it
there were of course a few catch phrases descibing a certain place:
"cast them into the outer darkness where there shall be weeping and nashing of teeth"
unt,
"where there worm dieth not and there fire is not quenched"
A good imagination will suffice.
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CKnapp3
It is written, "as ALL died in Adam, so shall ALL be made alive in Christ".
If Hitler is not going to be made alive in Christ, then in whom did he die? Adam? NO CHANCE! If Hitler died in Adam, then he is going to be made just as alive in Christ as you and I. PERIOD!!! So in order for Hitler not to be made alive in Christ, he would have had to die by some other fashion. Is a life in Christ hell??? Perhaps in the mind of the wicked, it will start out that way, which would of course be his punishment. But as the chaff is burned away, a righteous nature will emerge. Hey, how was YOUR OWN conversion, def??? Was it all peaches and cream????? Then either you were a good little boy (It is written, "There is nobody righteous, NO NOT ONE!), or your appointment with judgement is actually pending. Maybe you won't get the punishemt Hitler is worthy of, but you will have to face judgement just the same. (It is also written, "Whoever does great evil will get many lashes, but he who does very little evil will only get a few") And the sin in your own life will have to be dealt with.
Def, number one, almost everyone disregards the context of that verse in Galatians chapter 6. Back to that in a moment.
Number two, verse 7 of Galatians, chapt. 6 is poorly worded. Not to mention you misread the verse. (what version of the bible are you using?). It should read: "be not deceived, God is not being mocked, for whatever a man sows, also shall he reap." It doesn't imply that God cannot be mocked, only that he IS (PRESENT TENSE!!!!!) not (the word "being" is missing from that verse and should be there) mocked. The word "is" doesn't imply capabilty, but rather state of being. (Any English scholar should know THAT)
While it is true that what goes around comes around, the context was talking about a bible student giving tribute to his teacher. Read the verse proceeding verse 7, and the verse afterward. People thought that a bible student giving tribute to his teacher was in fact mocking God. (And incidently, not to justify VPW, but there was nothing wrong with us giving him tribute also per se, because at the time we thought him to be a teacher of sound doctrine. Only difference is we now know better, seeing VPW was NOT sowing to the spirit, but to his flesh!) The context was advising us that such tribute is acceptable to God and is not a form of mockery.
Still think God cannot be mocked????? What the hell do you think IDOLATRY is??????? That is the BASEST form of God mockery. If God cannot cannot be truly mocked, then why does He say he is a JEALOUS God, when it comes to idol worship??????
It's the 4th definition that applies to the context of Galatians, though God could definitely be "mocked" in any of the 4 definitions given.
So I'm afraid you're misguided in your understanding of Galatians, chapt. 6.
Defendant: "Lord, didn't I confess your name before men in public??" (and really, he did!)
Jesus: "Depart from me you worker of iniquity, I never knew you!"
The defendant's consequence of course is not getting a crown or any inheritance, he will still however get to live as a citizen in paradise.
What point did I miss? Of course people reject God all the time, AND SO DID YOU until you were given the gift of the Holy Spirit! This fact applies to ALL OF US!!!!
For starters, God has concluded US ALL in unbelief!!!!! So I guess we will all be punished now
:D-->
So the only reason you live a righteous life is to gain entry into heaven??? Sounds like you are lacking a heart. Maybe that's what you want YOUR heaven to be like. But what about God's??? People who are truly kind hearted don't need a cheap incentive to do right by their fellow man. They are motivated exclusively by love!
This doctrine comes from a dark place????? Hmmm, didn't Jesus warn about calling light darkness, and calling darkness light?? If Jesus would accuse me of calling the beliefs I hold darkness that I'm calling light, then He's got a lot of explaining to do. This casting out people you don't like sounds more like darkness. The Pharisees were champions at that. You say it doesn't sound right???? That's because I think you desire a heaven of your own design, and I think we were all guilty of doing that at one time or another. But that's only human nature to want our enemies removed from our society. Remember, that we are to forsake our human nature and walk spiritually. Jesus said to "love your enemies". Also, if you are an heir to The Kingdom, then you are going to decide the fate of those being judged. Def, answer me this, are you going to judge those before you the way God judged you????? Or are you going to be like the unmerciful debtor in that parable????
What did Jesus and Abel have in common????
Both were MURDERED!
Abel,(who is a sinner) says: "Avenge my enemies!"
Jesus,(who is sinless) says: "Forgive them father, for they know not what they do!"
Who in the hell told you that you are saved by CHANCE??????? It's by GRACE you are saved!!!!!!!!!!!!! NOT CHANCE!!!!!!! How many times do I have to say this????
--> Do you take God to play a game of roulette, putting our very lives at risk???? Besides, anyone who plays gambling games to gain riches obviously makes money their god (soverign), instead of being Lord over their money, and anyone who knows about gambling can tell you, the house has the advantage!!!!! Therefore for God to play roulette with our lives at stake would definetly make God bow down to our sovereignty. And Satan, who would be the "house" in this case has definitely the advantage. Some God!!!!!!!! That kind of God isn't even worthy to urinate on, let alone worship!!!! If that's your God, you can have him!!!!
And the idea that "tomorrow is too late" is not even biblical, why do people insist otherwise?????
In closing let me ask the following question: Is it true NOTHING is IMPOSSIBLE with God????
YES???? Then is it impossible for God to change Hitler from a notorious and evil tryant to quite possibly the holiest saint you ever met????
NO you say???? Next question: Why won't God do it then???? Is he a respecter of persons after all??????
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CKnapp3
Hi Sunesis,
Well, you and I agree about 99% except for that piece of logic. I have the teaching John Schoenheit (of CES) gave on Genesis Six. So I'm familiar with that study. However I also believe that NOTHING is impossible with God.
The question I ask you is that the Nephilim will see NO resurrection whatsoever, not even unto judgement?????? In otherwords, they die once, never to be seen again?? I might be able to accept THAT logic, but John Schoenheit does teach that they are going to be judged. I assume that it is necessary that they should be conscious of this judgement, so a resurrection is in order. But then I could be wrong, they could be judged without their knowing it, so they will just plain die, never to rise again, not even to be made aware of their judgement.
Now why would God destroy them in their evil nature, and not rebuild them in a holy and acceptable nature???? Why even judge them if the final outcome is total destruction????
But then again we ARE talking about angels rather than men. But what about the freakish offspring???? They also have a human nature that God wills to save. So what happens? Perhaps their evil side will be destroyed, and anything that is pure will come about in the outcome.
One more interesting thing to point out, according to Schoenheit's teaching, there are NO Nephilim left here on earth. I guess that's a load off OUR minds, eh Sunesis
:)-->
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Sunesis
Hi Cknapp. I've had no involvement in TWI or any other offshoots. I have no idea what Scheonheit has taught.
It is written - I will look it up later, where the nephilim are not resurrected. They are not human. They were not "created" by God, as was the angelic host, spiritual beings, and humans. Resurrection and new bodies is for humans. The fact that God's created fallen angels, under Satan's dominion, left their habitat and mated with humans and bore these monstrosities is one of the reasons God sent the flood. The human line was almost totally corrupted. The Bible says the last days will be like the last days of Noah.
I believe there will be another eruption of these beings. I believe many of the "gods" people worshipped in the pre-flood time were these fallen angels who roamed the earth or their offspring and took the woman they liked. If you look at pictures of some of the kings of Sumaria, they are absolutely huge.
I have even wondered, since Satan had fallen from heaven, and his domain is now the earth, if what Eve saw in the Garden, that made her want to sin so as to be like a "god" was the beauty of these fallen angelic creatures she had seen. Maybe she and Adam felt they were missing out on something and wanted to be like them.
The Bible says, after the flood, there was another eruption. As when coming out of the promised land the Israelite spies saw them and were grasshoppers compared to them. Also, Israel was commanded to wipe these people out, including the Cainanites. I never understood why, in the OT God was always having certain people destroyed - now I understand, it is because they were nephilim. I do believe, there are certain people today and in the past, those who commit atrocities, come to great power, commit mass murder and enjoy it, who are descendants of these nephilim - those who Israel disobeyed God and did not destroy.
Read the book of Enoch. He is quoted many times in the bible and N.T. It was commonly known, read and believed - he was a great prophet. Of course, as the Catholic Church came to power, they effectively had almost every copy destroyed. Enoch is the one who pleased God and God had translated.
There's a lot of stuff. I think the church is having an awakening in this field.
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CKnapp3
Sunesis, I understand where you are coming from seeing as I have studied the subject of Nephilim myself. Do you believe the Nephilim, if there are any remnants here on earth, will just cease to exist when they die, or will they be awakened for judgement first, then destroyed?
But whatever the case is, I still think God is unlimited in His power, and can change the nature of nephilim from one that is evil, into one that is holy and pleasing to Him. I believe NOTHING is impossible with God. Even if the nephilim are destroyed, God can rebuild them into something and give them a new nature to boot. Look what He did, and will do for us
:)-->. Granted, we are powerless to rebuild from the ruins, but not God.
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