the writer (e.g.,Bible fundies are clueless dolts put off by decors resembling Norman Bate's motel office), I enjoyed the fascinating material that this article did raise.
I warned you, could be offensive. And that house--pretty wild. Makes my dried flowera and candles look pretty Martha Stewart.
I've heard serious references to being the 'other people' and Yahweh being 'a tribal god, not my tribe' type of thing before. There could be a more serious book or article about that. I'll ask at a big pagan site, the one stop pagan site for crazy questions.
Interesting article, Bramble. I too have often wondered about the two creation stories and who Adam and Eve's children reproduced with. I know one theory is that which was taught in TWI - their siblings.
However, I have to take issue with this point:
"suffice it to say that those of us who are not of Semitic descent (i.e., not of the lineage of Adam and Eve) cannot share in the Original Sin that comes with that lineage"
This is flawed for a couple of reasons. First, many many many Christians are not of Semitic descent, yet believe they too inherited the "original sin". The other is that Judaism does not believe in the "ineritence of original sin". To the best of my knowledge that is a doctrine that came with Christianity. Jews do not believe we are all born in sin and therefore need a savior. I wonder if Muslem's teach original sin is inherited?
Anway - there are some interesting ideas in the article. It's too bad it couldn't have been presented without the smuggness - makes them sound as if they are more interested in putting down others than finding truth. Oh well.
Abigail-- I had no idea there is no original sin in Judaism! Then why do they need a Messiah, savior?(Sorry--I know this is off topic)
The writer of that article is Oberon Zell, who founded the Church of All Worlds(based on Robert Heinlein's Stranger in a Strange Land.) He apparantly has written serious articles and books but they would be tricky to hunt down(well, there's probably a CoAW website.) He was a BNP(big name pagan) in the sixties and seventies, and is considered a pioneer in neo pagan circles. Not Wiccan, which is more where I land.
Abigail-- I had no idea there is no original sin in Judaism! Then why do they need a Messiah, savior?(Sorry--I know this is off topic)
I also find this a very interesting question.
In an earlier meaning "Messiah" may have been understood more in a corporate sense. The people would ultimately "save" themselves, rather than awaiting a single, superhuman "Messiah" to crashland from Krypton to save the day, which meaning it ultimately took on.
I'm very familiar with "A Stranger in a Strange Land" it was the first Heinlein book I ever read and I read it a number of times. I went on to read all the rest of his books as well. :)-->
The concept of the Messiah in Judaism is not of a spiritual savior but a physical one. One who would unite the Jews and them from persecution. A king, if you will. A spiritual savior is not needed - that is what the rituals are for. And the rituals are just that - rituals. A physical act to coincide with the spiritual process taking place - to tell our brains and hearts what they need to hear because we are spiritual beings in a physical body and world.
and Danny is also correct. In some sects of Judaism it is believed that the people collectively will become the Messiah as we grow as a "race", and in some sects as we grow as a species. I tend to agree with this latter concept. I think we are hear to learn and grow - to evolve in a sense. I think it is also entirely possible that we will continue to be reborn until we have reached the platue of our learning.
If you are interested in some fictional materials that will give you an interesting perspective on pagan religions and perhaps wicca in particlar I would highly recommend Marion Zimmer Bradley's books - the "Mists of Avalon" the "Priestess of Avalon" the "Lady of Avalon" and the "Forrest House". There is one more but I can't recall the name of it right now.
Judaism (especially those forms which led in the direction and development of Christianity) was greatly influenced by contact with the Persian religions while in exile; particularly ideas pertaining to Zoroastrianism (angels and demons, world saviors, apocalyptic end time scenarios, general resurrections). I bet these ideas greatly shaped "the Messiah" notion that came about in Judaism, of a powerful, heavenly super-hero.
I might add, it's fascinating to consider that the two writers/artists behind our classic "Superman" comic icon - an otherworldly savior or messiah if there ever was one - were Jewish, and contemplate how much this character owes to Biblical ideas. "Jor-El"..."Kal-El"..."Dani-El"(lol).
Hi to all :)--> and sorry if I interrupt the discussion. Forgive my English too, it is not my mother tongue, Greek is.
I just want to share a thought.
Didn't Adam and Eve died? Well the animals (goats/sheeps/lions whatever...) from which God made the skins did. Isn't that substitution? (either rituals and animal sacrifices for the Jews, or Jesus for Christians - Something/Someone dies instead of you)
It was the same day, God did not lie. someone died.
Doesn't this explain Cain's wrong offering?
I always wondered how on earth could poor Cain knew that he needed a blood sacrifice, since the law was given years later, even centuries. (off-topic -excuse me)
As for the initial question of what was the sin, I agree with those that said disobedience.
If I say the expression right:" that's my 2 cents"
And God said, Let us make man in our own image after our likeness Gen1:26
God here is elohiym. It is in the plural so the pronouns us, and our are properly supplied. In the next verse the Hebrew word for God is also elohiym. In this next verse, the pronoun translated as his is also plural and should be translated their. The image of their own, in which elohiym created man, was male and female. They made man in the likeness of themselves.
In Genesis, before man is formed out of the dust of the ground and is given the breath of life to become a living soul, he is created first as male and female in the image of God. It is only after man is formed out of the ground and after being made a unified living soul that man is separated into two different parts.
23And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man. 24Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh. 25And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.
after they ate of the tree
because of the serpent
after their eyes were opened to who they were
20And Adam called his wife’s name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.
--
from Abigail-
In some sects of Judaism it is believed that the people collectively will become the Messiah as we grow as a "race", and in some sects as we grow as a species. I tend to agree with this latter concept. I think we are hear to learn and grow - to evolve in a sense. I think it is also entirely possible that we will continue to be reborn until we have reached the platue of our learning.
I have come across this concept before, the term that comes to mind is "split aparts". Not sure if that should be one word or two.
So does this then mean we each have another "part" out there somewhere? Or after man was split the first time, were all of Adam and Eve's children singular to begin with.
The concept of God being both male and female is also held within Judaism, as in a form of the trinity, ie. father, mother, child. Though ultimately in Judaism it is understood that all terms used to describe God are lacking and only descriptive of aspects to help us come to an understanding of God. Therein lies the potential for idolotry, anytime one becomes to fixated on a single aspect and worships the part instead of the whole.
note: the dove descending on him from above being an anointing of a feminine nature (i mean, look at the form: wings unfolding + oil + descending from above + being well-pleased, all sorts of ooh aah shekinah glory type stuff, etc...is it sexual or a birth canal or both? does it even matter?)
the secret of the universe, including the "problems" with eden and the "solutions" of the book of Revelation, are to be found in sex and sexuallity, it seems...sexuality of body, sexuality of soul, and sexuallity of spirit
eros and agape in union...now there is a fiery tree that never ever goes out
20And Adam called his wife’s name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.
I think perspective is important in reading anything really, but in the Bible many think it is THE word of da God. That can skew perspective at times, IMO. For example, if the writer was writing from Adam's perspective, Eve would have been the mother of all living. He didn't know of anyone else. Lots daughters had a certain perspective in regards to life on earth as well. If they would have known otherwise they could have saved many of us cringing readers from that uncommfortable story.
I was a little shocked to see an article that said many of the same things I have been saying on this thread. Not that I thought I was the only one to have ever seen this, but I have never heard it before and I wasn't expecting it from a Wiccan writer, but so be it.I would say that it is possibly from coming to it having put aside any Christian assumtions or any other assumptions.
I think that perspective is also a possible answer to Abi's point about original sin. While it is not what the Judeans believe, it is what Christians believe and Genisis is where they get that from. Perhaps universal salvation is not what is needed for humanity, and the way it is put in this article is just one way of saying that. We are other people, different people. Contrary to christian's perspectives we don't all need thier salvation, thier representaion of Jesus.
I also thought the take on Gen 1 vs. 2 was interesting. IMO it makes just as much if not more sense as any other explaination. The redunant explaination of many Christians just seems kinda weak.
Gen 2:7And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Gen 3:14And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: 15And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
the dust of the ground 2:7
and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life 3:14
And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. 3:15 -
Galations-flesh against spirit-and other places....2 seeds-one must die for the other to grow
(don't take that literally and think suicide)
I think we may need that ole serpent....
Jod 2:2And the LORD said unto Satan, From whence comest thou? And Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
Job 26:11The pillars of heaven tremble and are astonished at his reproof. 12He divideth the sea with his power, and by his understanding he smiteth through the proud. 13By his spirit he hath garnished the heavens; his hand hath formed the crooked serpent. 14Lo, these are parts of his ways: but how little a portion is heard of him? but the thunder of his power who can understand?
Proverbs 30:18There be three things which are too wonderful for me, yea, four which I know not: 19The way of an eagle in the air; the way of a serpent upon a rock; the way of a ship in the midst of the sea; and the way of a man with a maid.
John 3:14And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
Revelation 12: 7And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. 10And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. 11And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
2 Kings 6:17And Elisha prayed, and said, LORD, I pray thee, open his eyes, that he may see. And the LORD opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw: and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha.
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TheInvisibleDan
Outside of the condenscending tone of
the writer (e.g.,Bible fundies are clueless dolts put off by decors resembling Norman Bate's motel office), I enjoyed the fascinating material that this article did raise.
Danny
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Bramble
I warned you, could be offensive. And that house--pretty wild. Makes my dried flowera and candles look pretty Martha Stewart.
I've heard serious references to being the 'other people' and Yahweh being 'a tribal god, not my tribe' type of thing before. There could be a more serious book or article about that. I'll ask at a big pagan site, the one stop pagan site for crazy questions.
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Abigail
Interesting article, Bramble. I too have often wondered about the two creation stories and who Adam and Eve's children reproduced with. I know one theory is that which was taught in TWI - their siblings.
However, I have to take issue with this point:
"suffice it to say that those of us who are not of Semitic descent (i.e., not of the lineage of Adam and Eve) cannot share in the Original Sin that comes with that lineage"
This is flawed for a couple of reasons. First, many many many Christians are not of Semitic descent, yet believe they too inherited the "original sin". The other is that Judaism does not believe in the "ineritence of original sin". To the best of my knowledge that is a doctrine that came with Christianity. Jews do not believe we are all born in sin and therefore need a savior. I wonder if Muslem's teach original sin is inherited?
Anway - there are some interesting ideas in the article. It's too bad it couldn't have been presented without the smuggness - makes them sound as if they are more interested in putting down others than finding truth. Oh well.
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Bramble
Abigail-- I had no idea there is no original sin in Judaism! Then why do they need a Messiah, savior?(Sorry--I know this is off topic)
The writer of that article is Oberon Zell, who founded the Church of All Worlds(based on Robert Heinlein's Stranger in a Strange Land.) He apparantly has written serious articles and books but they would be tricky to hunt down(well, there's probably a CoAW website.) He was a BNP(big name pagan) in the sixties and seventies, and is considered a pioneer in neo pagan circles. Not Wiccan, which is more where I land.
That's all I grok.
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TheInvisibleDan
I also find this a very interesting question.
In an earlier meaning "Messiah" may have been understood more in a corporate sense. The people would ultimately "save" themselves, rather than awaiting a single, superhuman "Messiah" to crashland from Krypton to save the day, which meaning it ultimately took on.
Danny
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Abigail
I'm very familiar with "A Stranger in a Strange Land" it was the first Heinlein book I ever read and I read it a number of times. I went on to read all the rest of his books as well.
:)-->
The concept of the Messiah in Judaism is not of a spiritual savior but a physical one. One who would unite the Jews and them from persecution. A king, if you will. A spiritual savior is not needed - that is what the rituals are for. And the rituals are just that - rituals. A physical act to coincide with the spiritual process taking place - to tell our brains and hearts what they need to hear because we are spiritual beings in a physical body and world.
and Danny is also correct. In some sects of Judaism it is believed that the people collectively will become the Messiah as we grow as a "race", and in some sects as we grow as a species. I tend to agree with this latter concept. I think we are hear to learn and grow - to evolve in a sense. I think it is also entirely possible that we will continue to be reborn until we have reached the platue of our learning.
If you are interested in some fictional materials that will give you an interesting perspective on pagan religions and perhaps wicca in particlar I would highly recommend Marion Zimmer Bradley's books - the "Mists of Avalon" the "Priestess of Avalon" the "Lady of Avalon" and the "Forrest House". There is one more but I can't recall the name of it right now.
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Bramble
Abigail and Dan,
Thanks for the info--I found it very interesting, especially the view of ritual.
I've enjoyed those books--Heinlein and Bradley!
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TheInvisibleDan
Judaism (especially those forms which led in the direction and development of Christianity) was greatly influenced by contact with the Persian religions while in exile; particularly ideas pertaining to Zoroastrianism (angels and demons, world saviors, apocalyptic end time scenarios, general resurrections). I bet these ideas greatly shaped "the Messiah" notion that came about in Judaism, of a powerful, heavenly super-hero.
I might add, it's fascinating to consider that the two writers/artists behind our classic "Superman" comic icon - an otherworldly savior or messiah if there ever was one - were Jewish, and contemplate how much this character owes to Biblical ideas. "Jor-El"..."Kal-El"..."Dani-El"(lol).
Danny
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ekfrasi
Hi to all
:)--> and sorry if I interrupt the discussion. Forgive my English too, it is not my mother tongue, Greek is.
I just want to share a thought.
Didn't Adam and Eve died? Well the animals (goats/sheeps/lions whatever...) from which God made the skins did. Isn't that substitution? (either rituals and animal sacrifices for the Jews, or Jesus for Christians - Something/Someone dies instead of you)
It was the same day, God did not lie. someone died.
Doesn't this explain Cain's wrong offering?
I always wondered how on earth could poor Cain knew that he needed a blood sacrifice, since the law was given years later, even centuries. (off-topic -excuse me)
As for the initial question of what was the sin, I agree with those that said disobedience.
If I say the expression right:" that's my 2 cents"
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CM
And God said, Let us make man in our own image after our likeness Gen1:26
God here is elohiym. It is in the plural so the pronouns us, and our are properly supplied. In the next verse the Hebrew word for God is also elohiym. In this next verse, the pronoun translated as his is also plural and should be translated their. The image of their own, in which elohiym created man, was male and female. They made man in the likeness of themselves.
In Genesis, before man is formed out of the dust of the ground and is given the breath of life to become a living soul, he is created first as male and female in the image of God. It is only after man is formed out of the ground and after being made a unified living soul that man is separated into two different parts.
23And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man. 24Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh. 25And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.
after they ate of the tree
because of the serpent
after their eyes were opened to who they were
20And Adam called his wife’s name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.
--
from Abigail-
In some sects of Judaism it is believed that the people collectively will become the Messiah as we grow as a "race", and in some sects as we grow as a species. I tend to agree with this latter concept. I think we are hear to learn and grow - to evolve in a sense. I think it is also entirely possible that we will continue to be reborn until we have reached the platue of our learning.
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CM
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Abigail
Wow, CM.
I have come across this concept before, the term that comes to mind is "split aparts". Not sure if that should be one word or two.
So does this then mean we each have another "part" out there somewhere? Or after man was split the first time, were all of Adam and Eve's children singular to begin with.
The concept of God being both male and female is also held within Judaism, as in a form of the trinity, ie. father, mother, child. Though ultimately in Judaism it is understood that all terms used to describe God are lacking and only descriptive of aspects to help us come to an understanding of God. Therein lies the potential for idolotry, anytime one becomes to fixated on a single aspect and worships the part instead of the whole.
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CM
the Father and the Holy Spirit-the Mother
from sirguessalot-on another thread, bib-uni
note: the dove descending on him from above being an anointing of a feminine nature (i mean, look at the form: wings unfolding + oil + descending from above + being well-pleased, all sorts of ooh aah shekinah glory type stuff, etc...is it sexual or a birth canal or both? does it even matter?)
the secret of the universe, including the "problems" with eden and the "solutions" of the book of Revelation, are to be found in sex and sexuallity, it seems...sexuality of body, sexuality of soul, and sexuallity of spirit
eros and agape in union...now there is a fiery tree that never ever goes out
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CM
Gen 2:7And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
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CM
that holy breath-holy spirit
"because she was the mother of all living"
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CM
Abigail, that's almost all i can come up with and put into words right now.
Getting info from a lot of different sources.
It's not the whole answer or story, I'm sure of that.
As we can we put it into words....
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lindyhopper
I think perspective is important in reading anything really, but in the Bible many think it is THE word of da God. That can skew perspective at times, IMO. For example, if the writer was writing from Adam's perspective, Eve would have been the mother of all living. He didn't know of anyone else. Lots daughters had a certain perspective in regards to life on earth as well. If they would have known otherwise they could have saved many of us cringing readers from that uncommfortable story.
I was a little shocked to see an article that said many of the same things I have been saying on this thread. Not that I thought I was the only one to have ever seen this, but I have never heard it before and I wasn't expecting it from a Wiccan writer, but so be it.I would say that it is possibly from coming to it having put aside any Christian assumtions or any other assumptions.
I think that perspective is also a possible answer to Abi's point about original sin. While it is not what the Judeans believe, it is what Christians believe and Genisis is where they get that from. Perhaps universal salvation is not what is needed for humanity, and the way it is put in this article is just one way of saying that. We are other people, different people. Contrary to christian's perspectives we don't all need thier salvation, thier representaion of Jesus.
I also thought the take on Gen 1 vs. 2 was interesting. IMO it makes just as much if not more sense as any other explaination. The redunant explaination of many Christians just seems kinda weak.
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Bramble
Just for the record, Oberon Zell isn't Wiccan. He's pagan.
But I have seen the same attitude--It's not my tribe, my book, my god, so doesn't involve me, alot.
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CM
Abigail
"So does this then mean we each have
another "part" out there somewhere?"
I don't think so. In the sense of being out there somewhere.
But begins to be born and uncovered from within. It continues to unfold itself....
I could be wrong on this but it's quite
the different look and way to see it...
cleaning off the dust of ourselves to see
our inner self, loving ourselves....in a sense
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CM
a few little thoughts
Gen 2:7And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Gen 3:14And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: 15And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
the dust of the ground 2:7
and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life 3:14
And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. 3:15 -
Galations-flesh against spirit-and other places....2 seeds-one must die for the other to grow
(don't take that literally and think suicide)
I think we may need that ole serpent....
Jod 2:2And the LORD said unto Satan, From whence comest thou? And Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
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CM
Job 26:11The pillars of heaven tremble and are astonished at his reproof. 12He divideth the sea with his power, and by his understanding he smiteth through the proud. 13By his spirit he hath garnished the heavens; his hand hath formed the crooked serpent. 14Lo, these are parts of his ways: but how little a portion is heard of him? but the thunder of his power who can understand?
Proverbs 30:18There be three things which are too wonderful for me, yea, four which I know not: 19The way of an eagle in the air; the way of a serpent upon a rock; the way of a ship in the midst of the sea; and the way of a man with a maid.
John 3:14And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
Revelation 12: 7And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. 10And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. 11And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
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CM
and why does a fly fly into the house but doesn't fly out?
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CM
as the serpent winds its way thru
so does Christ
that which lives within ourselves
make our paths straight
evolution? yeah....
war in heaven?
heaven-depends on how we see it
where is heaven seen?
how did John see it
Revelation 21:1a And I saw a new heaven and a new earth
as seen thru new eyes....
we know in part...
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2 Kings 6:17And Elisha prayed, and said, LORD, I pray thee, open his eyes, that he may see. And the LORD opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw: and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha.
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