Lucifer, Gabriel and Michael are all angels of God. He told the truth. Remember he is an angel of light. Transformed into an Angel of Light-how? It's not a lie either, but true-transformed into an angel of light.
Adam was placed in the garden of eden. Where God is and his angels which are part of God.
Genesis 3:7And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons. 8And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.
You can't run but you can hide.
Luke 1:26And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth, 27To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary. 28And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. 29And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be.
"she saw him"
"the angel came in unto her" from where?
We're on the cutting edge here. Gotta watch someone's head don't get sliced off.
Genesis 3:22And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: 23Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. 24So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
Abi, to answer your question, no, not going back to Nephilim at all. Just, with Satan in the Garden and probably others, I think, as someone else said, there was a definite awe of their presence, knowledge, beauty which led to temptation and communing with them. Just as later, in Gen. 6, another group of angels left their natural habitation - the place God created for them to live, and came here to take women, its almost as if Eve and later Adam, wanted to leave their natural habitation to go there...
Possibly the tree of life would have taken them there?
Genesis 3:22And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: 23Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. 24So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
What's the question again?
Well, one of the questions would be: So God and "us" have "experiencially known" evil?
Another one would be...
Why doesn't God tell Adam and Eve the truth? That they won't surely die, and that all they need to do is go eat of the tree of life. He says to his angels or whoever he is talking to "Behold", LOOK, "They have become like one of us and now all they need to do is eat of the tree of life (Zoe)(in the midst of the garden) and they will live forever. Therefore..." (or for that reason) he kicks them out of the garden. He then protects the garden so that they can not get back in, to protect the way of the tree of life. What is "the way of the tree of life"? It seems to be the way of everlasting life. A way that was available if it were not for God's enforcement. It was available from the begining of Eden, apparently before or after eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. It almost seems as if God wanted them to live forever but didn't want them to know the difference between good and evil, didn't want them to have the ability to makes those choices. They were naked before and naked after eating the fruit, the only difference was that after eating it they realised they were naked. It just seems stranger and stranger to me and I don't think I am really reading anything into it.
hate to be a geek, but do you hve a sourse for that, Todd? I am seeing that subtle is `aruwm {aw-room'}and naked is `eyrom {ay-rome'} or `erom {ay-rome'}. They sound similar but not the same. Maybe you have a different sourse or a something different in mind all together. That has been know to happen. :)-->
Actually what I am seeing regarding "subtle" is interesting as well. Out of eleven times it is only translated subtleonce, right there in regards to the serpent. The majority of the time (8 times) it is used as prudent.
I don't know CM, Eden isn't sounding all that great to me. Sure there are some very appealing things about it like you have to dress and keep it, but you don't work so hard as to break a sweat to put food on the table. You get to have as mush sex as you want and make babies all day cause they are just gonna pop right out with easy, but you trade knowledge for ignorance and you trade choosing of your own free will to chosing from Gods choices. I know that may sound just right to some but the God of Gen 1-3 isn't sounding like the the God of "where God is, there is liberty", IMO. It sounds more like "where God is, you are kept in the dark and fed propaganda."
I know i don't want my kids to experience evil. But somehow they will come across it. I just hope they don't eat of it. But if they do I hope they will come out of it wiser and more able to see the difference.
Sort of like the evil we experienced in twi. Coming out of that-I mean really breaking free of it gives us wisdom to see where we were, the whys and how it got us.
And then to really appreciate the freedom to not have to be involved in something like that again.
Choosing is our right. God given. The dust of the ground thinks it's pretty smart sometimes. God's choices are unlimited in variance and magnitude. Not limited to a few things ya know. We make choices all the time. Godly choices.
Just trying to throw in some good old common sense here and not make it seem so damn religious.
All i can say is that I will raise my kids to know the differnce between good and evil. That is what I think we should be looking at. Before they ate that fruit,they didn't know they were naked, after they did. Before they were exactly as God had made them, after, there was something wrong with that. And I really don't think this ginosko has anything to do with experience, but to do with being able to learn to know the difference. One definitions of subtle both in todays usage and in the hebrew word for subtle used in 3:1 is "able to make fine distinctions." Sounds like discern truth from error doesn't it. Funny thing about that is after they spoke with that subtle serpent that is exactly what they could do!
As I said I'm trying to stay to a more literal reading of this, but obviously being "naked" could signify being vulnerable, unprotected. have you ever been sitting somewhere and suddenly someone points out that there is a spider or scorpion or snake or something right next to you. Many times people jump back in fear as they realise the danger that they are in. Or someone points out as you are walking along unawares that a car is about to hit you. Samething.
Suddenly A and E realised they were vulnerable because they learned of good and evil. Sometimes I tell my wife she knows too much. She is an epidemiologist and deals with acute communicable diseases. She is aware of every disease, how common they are, how easily they are transmitted, what will kill you and what will puke, and believe me some these things are pretty common. So she worries a lot. She knows too much and now I do too. But I would take that worrying over ignorance anyday. Ignorance killed tons of people via the black plague, small pox, typhoid, etc etc. It still kills tens of thousands of people via the flu every year in this contry alone. It kills thousands of entire families via AIDS in africa and continues to. It creates myths and perpetuates itself.
I would trade ignorance for a sweaty brow and some fear anyday so that I would know to wash my hands afterwards so that I won't get hepatitis A or anthrax or H flu and to prep and cook that food right before I put it on the table. Surely I will die but it will be a life of learning and experience and stories behind scars and laughing about former ignorance and getting older and wiser. All things that I can't imagine life without.
Those fake people in hollywood and the like whose idea of a bad day is one in which thier million dollar outfit wasn't ready at the cleaners; who wouldn't know real suffering if it came up and threw up on them; those people lacking that subtle mind, are usually the most shallow and uninteresting people alive. It is the kids who were picked on in school or the ones that experimented a little with drugs, I said a little, the one with the crazy hair, the ones that were so smart no one like them, those are the kid that grow up to be the most intersting, deep, characters as adults. I want my kd to be on the fringe a little as he grows up. I don't wish him evil, but I know it will happen and with a watchful eye I will welcome the lessons learned.
OK this is long enough and it is late and I am rambling.
Genesis 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
Genesis 3:9 And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou? 10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.
1-eyes opened
2-be as Gods
3-knowing good and evil
4-afraid
5-hides because he is naked
These are the things that changed in his mind.
And btw God did teach them about evil.
But said don't "eat" of it.
It-I'm sure he told them what "It" was.
And God maybe chewed on old evil a bit too because he is God. His eyes are opened, knowing good and evil.
Note that 3:5 is the serpent talking and that is exactly what happened. Did they surely die? Could they have still lived for ever if God would have let them. It seems that way.
'It'
If they knew what 'it' was wouldn't 'the eyes of their unerstanding' have been 'enlightened'? They wouldn't have needed thier eyes to be opened.
And IMO if God has experiencially known evil, that throws a lot of Christianity way off. What stops him from experiencing it still, while we feel the affects? How is that light in whom is no darkness at all? How does that fit with the popular all good, all light, all love model of current Christianity?
According to 3:22, it was not a choice of one or the other. God said that they could still eat of the tree of life, but didn't apparently want them to. Why?
I guess I figured it out a little as I was writing. If you look at subtle as 'making fine distinctions' and naked as 'being vulnerable'- they go hand and hand. Especially, when it comes to good and evil. But that is part of the 'dance' as you say.
yeah. both "naked" and "subtil" being an openness, a bareness, or complete lack of taboo. no shadows yet cast. no blindspots. not having developed a set of things "not to be looked at." not yet prudes.
to nourish one's soul on a system of strictly good and evil values, rather than seeing everything as inherently good (but perhaps incomplete or stuck or immature or confused or lost), is the road to unconsciousness, shame, ignorance, rage, sorrow, enmity, etc...the root of our problems
...but also the "sacred monkey bars" we gotta somehow climb. cuz again, even this unconscious state is not evil, just a necessary in-between.
we gonna curse a baby for kicking in the womb? for simply being unborn? or for eating a turd when its 2?
perhaps a multi-layered multi-branched "system of positive and negative flows" is "the better way" we are to eventually see good and evil (now that we've left the garden). to understand the ebb and flow of things, the masculine and feminine, the rise and fall. this would open one's eyes to something, no? even while looking at the same damn thing as before?
question is, perhaps: where can we find the ideal vantage point to see this tree that is we?
wherever it is, i hope to God it simply accepts me for whatever stair i find myself upon today
the "good and evil" approach to "ministering" is what Jesus taught of when he spoke of casting one spirit out, and it returning with 7 buddy problems.
if we look at problems as simple black and white issues, sure, we might crush that single level of the problem that bothers our own selfish selves, but it also causes a ripple effect throughout that system that comes back to bite us in ways we don't understand (like Iraq), and confound us (cuz we just dont understand why the back and white approach didnt work).
if the spectrum of both the inner and outer worlds (both sides of the firmament) is based on the systems that developed in the first 7 turns of Genesis...we need to learn how to sing (live, think, act) on time and in tune if we are to help. and so we need to learn the basic notes and frequencies of things, and be "naked and unashamed" to the basic tempos. when we no longer nourish ourselves on the crude early system of good and evil, and can evaluate things as the interacting wholes that they are. thus, we see a new heaven and earth...NOW. in the twinkling of an eye.
but people often react that it this is too complicated.
my answer...its only 7 notes folks, biblically. we dont even need all our fingers to remember em. and if a kid can learn to play a flute or a banjo, adults can count to 7.
although, 7 is just a timeless and useful model. cuz you can also slice a rainbow into a million pieces if you want. same rainbow, more cuts.
imagine, your "blue" self is ill and tied up in knots, and someone wants to simply chop it out for their own sake, ignorant of the fact that your "blue" self is a vital and divine link in the chain of being (thus, leaving you with a hole in your wholeness, like a broken chain)
or your "orange" self is overblown and running the whole show, and someone wants to simply cram their favorite one-size-fits-all something in there that does nothing but enrage (and possibly feed) this already enraged child...
btw- i use these colors as a tool...cuz the map is not the same as the territory. but i think such a map can help to see why ministers and politicians and businesses fail us...they are still chowing down like pigs at the trough on the tree of knowledge of good and evil, which keeps that ole snake on the ground, not yet having climbed any higher.
but Moses lifted the serpent in the wilderness to heal them. and of course, Jesus understood this, and repeated the truth of it in his even greater context.
and in this sense, the "Caduceus" is possibly a more "Christian" symbol than the cross. being a universal symbol for healing
...why?
cuz it gets that damn snake in our heads and hearts off the ground, by giving it some wings
"One definitions of subtle both in todays usage and in the hebrew word for subtle used in 3:1 is "able to make fine distinctions." Sounds like discern truth from error doesn't it. Funny thing about that is after they spoke with that subtle serpent that is exactly what they could do! "
and
"I would trade ignorance for a sweaty brow and some fear anyday so that I would know to wash my hands afterwards so that I won't get "
Evolution. To trade the ignorance for the fear so that one can make one's own distinctions between good and evil and thus become like God instead of simply being entirely dependant on God to make the distinction for you. And when the day comes, when we no longer see only in part, how much more will we be able to do then? How much more compared to if we had never been able to see even in part? If God truly wanted sons, does he NOT want them to also grow up, as we want our children to someday grow up?
"to nourish one's soul on a system of strictly good and evil values, rather than seeing everything as inherently good (but perhaps incomplete or stuck or immature or confused or lost), is the road to unconsciousness, shame, ignorance, rage, sorrow, enmity, etc...the root of our problems"
Amen and amen!
"if we look at problems as simple black and white issues, sure, we might crush that single level of the problem that bothers our own selfish selves, but it also causes a ripple effect throughout that system that comes back to bite us in ways we don't understand "
and
or your "orange" self is overblown and running the whole show, and someone wants to simply cram their favorite one-size-fits-all something in there that does nothing but enrage (and possibly feed) this already enraged child...
I get this! An example for the past few days. Aaron got in a fight at school and then lied about what happened - either to me or the dean of students, doesn't matter which cause either way he lied.
Now he is naked - he has done something wrong and been exposed. So, now I do have to deal with and issue out consequences for the fight and the lying. Done. Now I can leave it at that - (black and white) what you did was wrong and now you pay the price (exiled from the Garden). And he can learn from that - he can learn if I behave in this way, ____ is the negative result, thus I should not behave this way, (much like Pavlov's dog). I can even take him a step further and teach him what to do instead (work till the garden).
But there is still something left undone. He is still naked and ashamed. Do I leave things in black and white? This is what you did, it was wrong, period. Or do I take it a step further to help him become naked and unashamed instead of naked and ashamed? (god's love, compassion, understanding, forgiveness - an opportunity to be children in this life so we can be adults in the next?)
"and so we need to learn the basic notes and frequencies of things, and be "naked and unashamed" to the basic tempos. when we no longer nourish ourselves on the crude early system of good and evil, and can evaluate things as the interacting wholes that they are. thus, we see a new heaven and earth...NOW. in the twinkling of an eye"
No, I can't leave him naked and ashamed. So we have to pick and taste and digest all the sublties of what occured. "The kids think I am weird because I am so smart". "The kids tease me and call me a wuss if I tell on them." The rules themselves are problematic - if I don't tell I get in trouble with the grown ups, if I do tell I get in trouble with the kids. {If I obey and don't eat, I will never be able to discern for myself, If I do eat I will learn and know fear/sin/shame etc.).
But it is amazing how far a little eating combined with the fellowship of compassion, understanding, and forgiveness can go - allowing the evolution of discerning to be possible while still allowing for one to be naked and UNashamed. And thus too one day grow up.
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Lindy and all...
Lucifer, Gabriel and Michael are all angels of God. He told the truth. Remember he is an angel of light. Transformed into an Angel of Light-how? It's not a lie either, but true-transformed into an angel of light.
Adam was placed in the garden of eden. Where God is and his angels which are part of God.
Genesis 3:7And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons. 8And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.
You can't run but you can hide.
Luke 1:26And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth, 27To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary. 28And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. 29And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be.
"she saw him"
"the angel came in unto her" from where?
We're on the cutting edge here. Gotta watch someone's head don't get sliced off.
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CM
The flaming sword that turns every way.....
Hot and bright.....
Moses and others were able to grab hold of that succer.
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CM
Genesis 3:22And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: 23Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. 24So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
What's the question again?
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pawnbroker
Lindy,
Read your response, makes me think. (Thanks)
I'll get back to you.
Jeff
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Sunesis
Very interesting thoughts from everyone!
Abi, to answer your question, no, not going back to Nephilim at all. Just, with Satan in the Garden and probably others, I think, as someone else said, there was a definite awe of their presence, knowledge, beauty which led to temptation and communing with them. Just as later, in Gen. 6, another group of angels left their natural habitation - the place God created for them to live, and came here to take women, its almost as if Eve and later Adam, wanted to leave their natural habitation to go there...
Possibly the tree of life would have taken them there?
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lindyhopper
Well, one of the questions would be: So God and "us" have "experiencially known" evil?
Another one would be...
Why doesn't God tell Adam and Eve the truth? That they won't surely die, and that all they need to do is go eat of the tree of life. He says to his angels or whoever he is talking to "Behold", LOOK, "They have become like one of us and now all they need to do is eat of the tree of life (Zoe)(in the midst of the garden) and they will live forever. Therefore..." (or for that reason) he kicks them out of the garden. He then protects the garden so that they can not get back in, to protect the way of the tree of life. What is "the way of the tree of life"? It seems to be the way of everlasting life. A way that was available if it were not for God's enforcement. It was available from the begining of Eden, apparently before or after eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. It almost seems as if God wanted them to live forever but didn't want them to know the difference between good and evil, didn't want them to have the ability to makes those choices. They were naked before and naked after eating the fruit, the only difference was that after eating it they realised they were naked. It just seems stranger and stranger to me and I don't think I am really reading anything into it.
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sirguessalot
another monkey wrench, perhaps...
re: the serpent being more "subtle" than any beast of the field
"subtle" is the same as "naked"
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CM
I like that, but apparently they still had the ability to make choices, because they chose to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, right!
hmmmmmm
getting back to eden....
quite the journey
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lindyhopper
hate to be a geek, but do you hve a sourse for that, Todd? I am seeing that subtle is `aruwm {aw-room'}and naked is `eyrom {ay-rome'} or `erom {ay-rome'}. They sound similar but not the same. Maybe you have a different sourse or a something different in mind all together. That has been know to happen.
:)-->
Actually what I am seeing regarding "subtle" is interesting as well. Out of eleven times it is only translated subtleonce, right there in regards to the serpent. The majority of the time (8 times) it is used as prudent.
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lindyhopper
I don't know CM, Eden isn't sounding all that great to me. Sure there are some very appealing things about it like you have to dress and keep it, but you don't work so hard as to break a sweat to put food on the table. You get to have as mush sex as you want and make babies all day cause they are just gonna pop right out with easy, but you trade knowledge for ignorance and you trade choosing of your own free will to chosing from Gods choices. I know that may sound just right to some but the God of Gen 1-3 isn't sounding like the the God of "where God is, there is liberty", IMO. It sounds more like "where God is, you are kept in the dark and fed propaganda."
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CM
well....
I know i don't want my kids to experience evil. But somehow they will come across it. I just hope they don't eat of it. But if they do I hope they will come out of it wiser and more able to see the difference.
Sort of like the evil we experienced in twi. Coming out of that-I mean really breaking free of it gives us wisdom to see where we were, the whys and how it got us.
And then to really appreciate the freedom to not have to be involved in something like that again.
Choosing is our right. God given. The dust of the ground thinks it's pretty smart sometimes. God's choices are unlimited in variance and magnitude. Not limited to a few things ya know. We make choices all the time. Godly choices.
Just trying to throw in some good old common sense here and not make it seem so damn religious.
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sirguessalot
yer right, Lindy
i should have said "subtil" and "naked" are one step from the same root
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lindyhopper
I'm still thinking about that Sir G O.
CM,
All i can say is that I will raise my kids to know the differnce between good and evil. That is what I think we should be looking at. Before they ate that fruit,they didn't know they were naked, after they did. Before they were exactly as God had made them, after, there was something wrong with that. And I really don't think this ginosko has anything to do with experience, but to do with being able to learn to know the difference. One definitions of subtle both in todays usage and in the hebrew word for subtle used in 3:1 is "able to make fine distinctions." Sounds like discern truth from error doesn't it. Funny thing about that is after they spoke with that subtle serpent that is exactly what they could do!
As I said I'm trying to stay to a more literal reading of this, but obviously being "naked" could signify being vulnerable, unprotected. have you ever been sitting somewhere and suddenly someone points out that there is a spider or scorpion or snake or something right next to you. Many times people jump back in fear as they realise the danger that they are in. Or someone points out as you are walking along unawares that a car is about to hit you. Samething.
Suddenly A and E realised they were vulnerable because they learned of good and evil. Sometimes I tell my wife she knows too much. She is an epidemiologist and deals with acute communicable diseases. She is aware of every disease, how common they are, how easily they are transmitted, what will kill you and what will puke, and believe me some these things are pretty common. So she worries a lot. She knows too much and now I do too. But I would take that worrying over ignorance anyday. Ignorance killed tons of people via the black plague, small pox, typhoid, etc etc. It still kills tens of thousands of people via the flu every year in this contry alone. It kills thousands of entire families via AIDS in africa and continues to. It creates myths and perpetuates itself.
I would trade ignorance for a sweaty brow and some fear anyday so that I would know to wash my hands afterwards so that I won't get hepatitis A or anthrax or H flu and to prep and cook that food right before I put it on the table. Surely I will die but it will be a life of learning and experience and stories behind scars and laughing about former ignorance and getting older and wiser. All things that I can't imagine life without.
Those fake people in hollywood and the like whose idea of a bad day is one in which thier million dollar outfit wasn't ready at the cleaners; who wouldn't know real suffering if it came up and threw up on them; those people lacking that subtle mind, are usually the most shallow and uninteresting people alive. It is the kids who were picked on in school or the ones that experimented a little with drugs, I said a little, the one with the crazy hair, the ones that were so smart no one like them, those are the kid that grow up to be the most intersting, deep, characters as adults. I want my kd to be on the fringe a little as he grows up. I don't wish him evil, but I know it will happen and with a watchful eye I will welcome the lessons learned.
OK this is long enough and it is late and I am rambling.
later
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CM
Ok-food for thought-
Then=after the "apple"
--
They were naked and unashamed
Then
They were naked and hid themselves
--
They didn't know evil
then
They knew evil
--
Genesis 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
Genesis 3:9 And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou? 10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.
1-eyes opened
2-be as Gods
3-knowing good and evil
4-afraid
5-hides because he is naked
These are the things that changed in his mind.
And btw God did teach them about evil.
But said don't "eat" of it.
It-I'm sure he told them what "It" was.
And God maybe chewed on old evil a bit too because he is God. His eyes are opened, knowing good and evil.
Just food for thought....
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CM
And I wonder will the tree of life-Christ
do these things then and Today
1-eyes opened
2-be as Gods
3-naked and unashamed
4-no fear
5-vaporize evil
Noting that if they had not eaten of the
tree of knowledge of good and evil.
And Just ate of the tree of Life first.
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lindyhopper
Note that 3:5 is the serpent talking and that is exactly what happened. Did they surely die? Could they have still lived for ever if God would have let them. It seems that way.
'It'
If they knew what 'it' was wouldn't 'the eyes of their unerstanding' have been 'enlightened'? They wouldn't have needed thier eyes to be opened.
And IMO if God has experiencially known evil, that throws a lot of Christianity way off. What stops him from experiencing it still, while we feel the affects? How is that light in whom is no darkness at all? How does that fit with the popular all good, all light, all love model of current Christianity?
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lindyhopper
According to 3:22, it was not a choice of one or the other. God said that they could still eat of the tree of life, but didn't apparently want them to. Why?
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lindyhopper
Sir G,
I guess I figured it out a little as I was writing. If you look at subtle as 'making fine distinctions' and naked as 'being vulnerable'- they go hand and hand. Especially, when it comes to good and evil. But that is part of the 'dance' as you say.
push and pull
lead and follow
stepping on toes
dipping and flipping
as Franky Manning called them:
Air steps
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sirguessalot
yeah. both "naked" and "subtil" being an openness, a bareness, or complete lack of taboo. no shadows yet cast. no blindspots. not having developed a set of things "not to be looked at." not yet prudes.
to nourish one's soul on a system of strictly good and evil values, rather than seeing everything as inherently good (but perhaps incomplete or stuck or immature or confused or lost), is the road to unconsciousness, shame, ignorance, rage, sorrow, enmity, etc...the root of our problems
...but also the "sacred monkey bars" we gotta somehow climb. cuz again, even this unconscious state is not evil, just a necessary in-between.
we gonna curse a baby for kicking in the womb? for simply being unborn? or for eating a turd when its 2?
perhaps a multi-layered multi-branched "system of positive and negative flows" is "the better way" we are to eventually see good and evil (now that we've left the garden). to understand the ebb and flow of things, the masculine and feminine, the rise and fall. this would open one's eyes to something, no? even while looking at the same damn thing as before?
question is, perhaps: where can we find the ideal vantage point to see this tree that is we?
wherever it is, i hope to God it simply accepts me for whatever stair i find myself upon today
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CM
I'm really not into current Christianity.
I like to think and look in a lot of directions.
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sirguessalot
example:
the "good and evil" approach to "ministering" is what Jesus taught of when he spoke of casting one spirit out, and it returning with 7 buddy problems.
if we look at problems as simple black and white issues, sure, we might crush that single level of the problem that bothers our own selfish selves, but it also causes a ripple effect throughout that system that comes back to bite us in ways we don't understand (like Iraq), and confound us (cuz we just dont understand why the back and white approach didnt work).
if the spectrum of both the inner and outer worlds (both sides of the firmament) is based on the systems that developed in the first 7 turns of Genesis...we need to learn how to sing (live, think, act) on time and in tune if we are to help. and so we need to learn the basic notes and frequencies of things, and be "naked and unashamed" to the basic tempos. when we no longer nourish ourselves on the crude early system of good and evil, and can evaluate things as the interacting wholes that they are. thus, we see a new heaven and earth...NOW. in the twinkling of an eye.
but people often react that it this is too complicated.
my answer...its only 7 notes folks, biblically. we dont even need all our fingers to remember em. and if a kid can learn to play a flute or a banjo, adults can count to 7.
although, 7 is just a timeless and useful model. cuz you can also slice a rainbow into a million pieces if you want. same rainbow, more cuts.
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sirguessalot
imagine, your "blue" self is ill and tied up in knots, and someone wants to simply chop it out for their own sake, ignorant of the fact that your "blue" self is a vital and divine link in the chain of being (thus, leaving you with a hole in your wholeness, like a broken chain)
or your "orange" self is overblown and running the whole show, and someone wants to simply cram their favorite one-size-fits-all something in there that does nothing but enrage (and possibly feed) this already enraged child...
btw- i use these colors as a tool...cuz the map is not the same as the territory. but i think such a map can help to see why ministers and politicians and businesses fail us...they are still chowing down like pigs at the trough on the tree of knowledge of good and evil, which keeps that ole snake on the ground, not yet having climbed any higher.
but Moses lifted the serpent in the wilderness to heal them. and of course, Jesus understood this, and repeated the truth of it in his even greater context.
and in this sense, the "Caduceus" is possibly a more "Christian" symbol than the cross. being a universal symbol for healing
...why?
cuz it gets that damn snake in our heads and hearts off the ground, by giving it some wings
be ye wise as serpents,
but harmless as doves, right?
and "I'll meet ya in the air"
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Abigail
"One definitions of subtle both in todays usage and in the hebrew word for subtle used in 3:1 is "able to make fine distinctions." Sounds like discern truth from error doesn't it. Funny thing about that is after they spoke with that subtle serpent that is exactly what they could do! "
and
"I would trade ignorance for a sweaty brow and some fear anyday so that I would know to wash my hands afterwards so that I won't get "
Evolution. To trade the ignorance for the fear so that one can make one's own distinctions between good and evil and thus become like God instead of simply being entirely dependant on God to make the distinction for you. And when the day comes, when we no longer see only in part, how much more will we be able to do then? How much more compared to if we had never been able to see even in part? If God truly wanted sons, does he NOT want them to also grow up, as we want our children to someday grow up?
"to nourish one's soul on a system of strictly good and evil values, rather than seeing everything as inherently good (but perhaps incomplete or stuck or immature or confused or lost), is the road to unconsciousness, shame, ignorance, rage, sorrow, enmity, etc...the root of our problems"
Amen and amen!
"if we look at problems as simple black and white issues, sure, we might crush that single level of the problem that bothers our own selfish selves, but it also causes a ripple effect throughout that system that comes back to bite us in ways we don't understand "
and
or your "orange" self is overblown and running the whole show, and someone wants to simply cram their favorite one-size-fits-all something in there that does nothing but enrage (and possibly feed) this already enraged child...
I get this! An example for the past few days. Aaron got in a fight at school and then lied about what happened - either to me or the dean of students, doesn't matter which cause either way he lied.
Now he is naked - he has done something wrong and been exposed. So, now I do have to deal with and issue out consequences for the fight and the lying. Done. Now I can leave it at that - (black and white) what you did was wrong and now you pay the price (exiled from the Garden). And he can learn from that - he can learn if I behave in this way, ____ is the negative result, thus I should not behave this way, (much like Pavlov's dog). I can even take him a step further and teach him what to do instead (work till the garden).
But there is still something left undone. He is still naked and ashamed. Do I leave things in black and white? This is what you did, it was wrong, period. Or do I take it a step further to help him become naked and unashamed instead of naked and ashamed? (god's love, compassion, understanding, forgiveness - an opportunity to be children in this life so we can be adults in the next?)
"and so we need to learn the basic notes and frequencies of things, and be "naked and unashamed" to the basic tempos. when we no longer nourish ourselves on the crude early system of good and evil, and can evaluate things as the interacting wholes that they are. thus, we see a new heaven and earth...NOW. in the twinkling of an eye"
No, I can't leave him naked and ashamed. So we have to pick and taste and digest all the sublties of what occured. "The kids think I am weird because I am so smart". "The kids tease me and call me a wuss if I tell on them." The rules themselves are problematic - if I don't tell I get in trouble with the grown ups, if I do tell I get in trouble with the kids. {If I obey and don't eat, I will never be able to discern for myself, If I do eat I will learn and know fear/sin/shame etc.).
But it is amazing how far a little eating combined with the fellowship of compassion, understanding, and forgiveness can go - allowing the evolution of discerning to be possible while still allowing for one to be naked and UNashamed. And thus too one day grow up.
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Abigail
Here's another interestig tidbit - ancient druids viewed the serpent as the symbol for wisdom
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