I think that as a practical matter it would be difficult to: recall, re-locate and apologize to everyone that may have been offended by my errors from long-ago.
I would just like to know where all of this making out was taking place, because I never got a chance to participate when I was in TWI. Either I wasn't BELIEVING enough, I didn't follow my FIRST THOUGHT, but I seemed to have missed out on the Waylays.
". . .But there is very little teaching on the subject and very few Biblical references on how to deal with it."
Your looking for teachings on "Adultry"?
Leviticus lays it out in various manners.
I have done (in the past) Word-Studies on Marriage, as well as having read studies done by others. Obviously The Bible lays it out as a sin. Many people are confused perhaps concerning exactly the Biblical definition of who or what it is.
The mind-set of that culture is within the idea that women are almost always the property of some man. Thus the Law lays out that to have sex with a woman who is not yours, is a sin against her 'head', either that woman's father or her husband. The only real exception to women having a 'head' is the case of an Harlot {meaning a woman who is her own 'head'). First usage of Harlot is a female head-of-household who is declared Righteous [a rare occurance in the Old Testament].
To my knowledge when addressing 'adultry' The Bible always makes reference to the man whose property has been 'damaged'. {the father or the husband]
"Bill Gothard, a man many fundamentalists disagree with takes the narrowist view, that after coming to Christ one should apologize to others for these type of events. (I think I disagree with this, i see little sense in reengulfing oneself in proir offenses."
If our Heavenly Father says that we are forgiven, who am I to dis-agree?
He says that my sins are removed as far as the East is from the West. Though it is true that some would insist that we should now re-immerse ourselves with our past sins. I dont see the profit of doing so.
"About the only thing (NT) about it is that it seems to be the only offense that the Bible allows for divorce. IE(Jesus in the Gospels) He also indicated that the agrieved party was bieng handed a cause of adultry. (Meaning I think like jealousy sex. I have actually heard of this happening)"
"Jealousy sex"?
"What about the situation of one party committing adultry and never telling the other party. A life time of guilt i think for that party, who at some time must tell there spouse? I think so.
I think its Biblical also, for it says if thy brother hath ought against you first go reconcile to your brother and then bring your gift. this must certainly apply to these type of cases."
You mean as a beleiver who now goes out and commits adultry? Okay I would think that the proper thing to do would be to confess such to the husband or father of the girl.
But really as a beleiver, if you are still doing those things, I should think that if you are serious about your stand with The Father, some prayer and fasting are needed.
"In Wayville, it is somewhat more easy I think, because it was a cult, and parties may have been blind sided by higher ups (which may constitute a crime) Still the offending party would have unaddressed guilt. Counseling???"
You think it was easier to confess those sins while in TWI? hmm. I dont see where that would have any effect.
By all means obviously if someone within TWI pressured (or even did not pressure) the wife of another to have sex with them, it was / is / will be wrong. I am not sure why being in TWI would change this. The Baptists have been doing it, for centuries. The Roman Catholics have been doing these things for Millenia.
Guilt is the thing isn't it. And guilt is bondage. Oh wrecked man that I am. Oh this body of sin. This putrified death that encases me.
I am a sinnner.
I am not the one to point out another beleiver and say that he or she has 'un-addressed guilt'. If a beleiver sins, he/she knows it. If not conscouisly, then sub-consciously. That guilt, that bondage will fix itself over time.
But the 'fix' is Heavenly. Drawing oneself closer to the Word.
I have foster-children in therapy, and I have significant doubts to the 'benefits' of it. Man does not know that heart of other men, only the Creator can do that.
What I meant by jealousy sex, is where the innocent party goes out and has sex to "get even."
I actually have seen this in two cases. One party was unchurched the other party was squarely in the church. Then they go back and live together.
I do think the law touches on the subject somewhat also. It might be helpful to look at the principle of "stoning the offenders" , more as a concept that this is kinda what happens. When the dirty laundry gets aired out, there are stones flying from people not a few.
I think Galen, its the only issue that contemplates the termination of a marriage. About that i am convinced. I have heard pastors argue many other reasons, but I think they are without virtue. I think in cases of abuse, the bible contemplates seperation. Of course abusers typically find themselves in adultry anyway.
your comment:
You mean as a beleiver who now goes out and commits adultry? Okay I would think that the proper thing to do would be to confess such to the husband or father of the girl.
I do think in marriage the offending party for restitution must tell there spouse tho.
"What I meant by jealousy sex, is where the innocent party goes out and has sex to "get even." "
The 'innocent' married spouse goes out and commits adultery?
Excuse me; I don’t believe that you are talking about standing Christians are you? Is it considered 'innocent' in the church that you attend to go commit adultery?
:-)
I think (In my own little universe) that any person committing adultery is no longer innocent of committing adultery.
Getting 'even' or not, I would find it difficult to imagine that such would usually be the norm of conduct within a Christian culture or group.
I understand that we are heavily influenced by TV, and the media. My foster children come home and we see that everyday they are surrounded by the influences of their common Public School culture. Within such culture, being raised by TV as they are and without any other form of guidance for conduct or ethics; I do understand the concept of 'getting even sex'. As I do the idea that a recent survey of 2nd grade girls thought it is perfectly okay for a boy to slap his girlfriend on the face if she should 'dis' him in front of his bros.
I like sex. I also believe that it has a 'proper' context and place [within a marriage and anything that does not disable or cause injury]. Today's common culture has dirtied it, made it common and so has brought it out everywhere such that it is not held as important to be within a marriage. In today' profane culture, sex is on most every channel of TV, the newspapers and magazines. Even country music I turn on and a woman is signing "I ain't gonna leave this bar, till I get me some".
If I use the Name of Jesus, only with the highest intentions and regard. Then I am holding that name high. If I use that name as a curse, if I make it common; then even while it is the same name, I have lost something.
I think that any person who considers 'getting even sex', has not been living their life or holding their thoughts in any Christian manner.
"I actually have seen this in two cases. One party was unchurched the other party was squarely in the church. Then they go back and live together."
I realize that I am going to sound harsh and un-caring. There will always be people with the morals of an alley cat, or the conscience of a bitch (a female dog) in heat.
I want to love everyone that I am around. Minister to their needs and help them. It is not my job to judge them at this time. It is my job to judge how I am going to lead my life, and who I am going to respect. A fellow believer of high scruples, who worships his creator and tries to do his best in life; I respect even when He and I dis-agree over doctrine. Someone without judgment, without principle can still be my neighbor, but I am not going to respect him or her for their stand with G-d. I do see many examples all around me in life of others who live without regard for principle, or ethics, or their Creator.
“I do think the law touches on the subject somewhat also. It might be helpful to look at the principle of "stoning the offenders" , more as a concept that this is kinda what happens. When the dirty laundry gets aired out, there are stones flying from people not a few.”
The Law was set for our example, as our schoolmaster from a time when we did not have spirit and knowledge of Our Lord to guide us.
That Law has been fulfilled, before us. Within it are good examples of sound doctrine and principles, but that does not mean that we should do everything we find within The Law.
I would not be throwing any stones.
People need love and compassion. They need a greater understanding of G-d’s Word.
Not to say that I will ‘follow’ or even highly regard them if they continue to walk in un-godly paths. But it is still me ministry to offer reconciliation back to G-d.
“I think Galen, its the only issue that contemplates the termination of a marriage. About that i am convinced. I have heard pastors argue many other reasons, but I think they are without virtue. I think in cases of abuse, the bible contemplates separation. Of course abusers typically find themselves in adultery anyway.”
When a believe finds themselves in a marriage with an un-believer, the un-believer is sanctified by the believer, but they are still an un-believer. Should the un-believer decide to walk away, let them walk, the believer is not bound. If two believers marry, I don’t feel that there should be any grounds for divorce.
Having spent 20+ years in the Navy, I was surrounded by people often with the morals of alley-cats. They got married, and commonly while we were out to sea, the wives filed for divorce. I don’t think that I ever went out to sea, except that upon surfacing again, our crew would have at least 2 divorce notifications waiting on us.
I do understand that people in society today, do get married and again divorced. Often they do it over and over again.
How many of these people really ever walked together in their faith? I am sure some, but I think few.
My own father changes his wives like others change their underwear. Recently he has held the same wife, but from about 1977 until 2000, I don’t think that I ever met him twice with the same wife.
“your comment: You mean as a believer who now goes out and commits adultery? Okay I would think that the proper thing to do would be to confess such to the husband or father of the girl.”
From the Biblical example we find in the OT, if a female is married she is ‘under’ the head of her husband. Any wrong done to her is a sin against her husband. Anyone who commits adultery with her is sinning against her husband.
A female who is yet un-married is under the ‘head’ of her father. Any wrong done to her is a sin against her father. Anyone who commits adultery with her is sinning against her father.
When fines were being levied. Those fines were paid to the wronged party. A maiden so damaged caused her father to be paid, even if they did not carry out to possible stoning. Similarly anyone committing adultery with a married woman would have to pay the husband.
“I do think in marriage the offending party for restitution must tell there spouse tho.”
Christianity within our common culture today, I understand within a marriage when a spouse confesses that they have been committing adultery outside of their marriage, it does tend to destroy the marriage anyway. At least this is what I have heard from other sources. I have not experienced such myself, nor from within any of the fellowships that I have been active in. Reading Dear Abby, or listening to the talk-shows, etc; it does appear that once a spouse is told about on-going adultery by the spouse, the marriage from that point on is often doomed.
I would think that some form of therapy or counseling would be in order. In this matter I would NOT be thinking of ‘pastoral counseling’ either. As the topic as a whole is so much outside of the excepted norm for Christianity.
She tells him, of what she has been doing while he has been out working, so now he forever holds her accountable, holds it ‘against’ her and will never fully forgive her. He tells her, of what he has been doing while she has been out, so now she forever holds him accountable, holds it ‘against’ him and will never fully forgive him.
In a society where divorce was not accepted, the couple did not divorce, they stayed together, and they just hated each other for life. I have seen examples of that. 90-year-old couples, and one still rags on the other for what happened in a drunken party in the 1920’s.
Today I think it would be far easier and accepted for them to separate.
Yah know you have a well developed conscience, and a seemingly great love for the Lord.
When you were talking about having fellowship , like it used to be, on another thread, I see where you were going with that now. Its true Galen, that there arent a lot of high times and meaningful fellowship in any Christian org anymore (IMO). Anyways, Praise the Lord. U sound really healthy.
I think song was refering to JC saying that even if you looked at another's spouse with lust that you have already sinned.
That gives me heebie jeebies cuz of what lcm did with that verse--sexual fantasies are wrong--and how that was used during the homo hunts to m&a people.
Then my question is: if someone goes on-line and looks at the porn sites and gets off on it--is that considered adultry as well?
YES that is sin the bible talks about not going to such place in your mind much less on a pc. the vessel your to use for sex is to come from your spouse and no other... it is written.
a long time ago a way corps gal told me she asks for forgivness every night before going to bed (just in case) seriously we do not know where we sin sometimes but we all do so I have taken up the practice of asking God for forgivness every day for my sins known and unknown. sometimes several times a day.
God is very serious about many matters of how we think or do life.
I know I cant compete and must ask for forgivness.
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Galen
I think that as a practical matter it would be difficult to: recall, re-locate and apologize to everyone that may have been offended by my errors from long-ago.
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Biblefan Dave
I would just like to know where all of this making out was taking place, because I never got a chance to participate when I was in TWI. Either I wasn't BELIEVING enough, I didn't follow my FIRST THOUGHT, but I seemed to have missed out on the Waylays.
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Galen
sky4it:
". . .But there is very little teaching on the subject and very few Biblical references on how to deal with it."
Your looking for teachings on "Adultry"?
Leviticus lays it out in various manners.
I have done (in the past) Word-Studies on Marriage, as well as having read studies done by others. Obviously The Bible lays it out as a sin. Many people are confused perhaps concerning exactly the Biblical definition of who or what it is.
The mind-set of that culture is within the idea that women are almost always the property of some man. Thus the Law lays out that to have sex with a woman who is not yours, is a sin against her 'head', either that woman's father or her husband. The only real exception to women having a 'head' is the case of an Harlot {meaning a woman who is her own 'head'). First usage of Harlot is a female head-of-household who is declared Righteous [a rare occurance in the Old Testament].
To my knowledge when addressing 'adultry' The Bible always makes reference to the man whose property has been 'damaged'. {the father or the husband]
"Bill Gothard, a man many fundamentalists disagree with takes the narrowist view, that after coming to Christ one should apologize to others for these type of events. (I think I disagree with this, i see little sense in reengulfing oneself in proir offenses."
If our Heavenly Father says that we are forgiven, who am I to dis-agree?
He says that my sins are removed as far as the East is from the West. Though it is true that some would insist that we should now re-immerse ourselves with our past sins. I dont see the profit of doing so.
"About the only thing (NT) about it is that it seems to be the only offense that the Bible allows for divorce. IE(Jesus in the Gospels) He also indicated that the agrieved party was bieng handed a cause of adultry. (Meaning I think like jealousy sex. I have actually heard of this happening)"
"Jealousy sex"?
"What about the situation of one party committing adultry and never telling the other party. A life time of guilt i think for that party, who at some time must tell there spouse? I think so.
I think its Biblical also, for it says if thy brother hath ought against you first go reconcile to your brother and then bring your gift. this must certainly apply to these type of cases."
You mean as a beleiver who now goes out and commits adultry? Okay I would think that the proper thing to do would be to confess such to the husband or father of the girl.
But really as a beleiver, if you are still doing those things, I should think that if you are serious about your stand with The Father, some prayer and fasting are needed.
"In Wayville, it is somewhat more easy I think, because it was a cult, and parties may have been blind sided by higher ups (which may constitute a crime) Still the offending party would have unaddressed guilt. Counseling???"
You think it was easier to confess those sins while in TWI? hmm. I dont see where that would have any effect.
By all means obviously if someone within TWI pressured (or even did not pressure) the wife of another to have sex with them, it was / is / will be wrong. I am not sure why being in TWI would change this. The Baptists have been doing it, for centuries. The Roman Catholics have been doing these things for Millenia.
Guilt is the thing isn't it. And guilt is bondage. Oh wrecked man that I am. Oh this body of sin. This putrified death that encases me.
I am a sinnner.
I am not the one to point out another beleiver and say that he or she has 'un-addressed guilt'. If a beleiver sins, he/she knows it. If not conscouisly, then sub-consciously. That guilt, that bondage will fix itself over time.
But the 'fix' is Heavenly. Drawing oneself closer to the Word.
I have foster-children in therapy, and I have significant doubts to the 'benefits' of it. Man does not know that heart of other men, only the Creator can do that.
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sky4it
Galen:
I enjoyed your post.
What I meant by jealousy sex, is where the innocent party goes out and has sex to "get even."
I actually have seen this in two cases. One party was unchurched the other party was squarely in the church. Then they go back and live together.
I do think the law touches on the subject somewhat also. It might be helpful to look at the principle of "stoning the offenders" , more as a concept that this is kinda what happens. When the dirty laundry gets aired out, there are stones flying from people not a few.
I think Galen, its the only issue that contemplates the termination of a marriage. About that i am convinced. I have heard pastors argue many other reasons, but I think they are without virtue. I think in cases of abuse, the bible contemplates seperation. Of course abusers typically find themselves in adultry anyway.
your comment:
You mean as a beleiver who now goes out and commits adultry? Okay I would think that the proper thing to do would be to confess such to the husband or father of the girl.
I do think in marriage the offending party for restitution must tell there spouse tho.
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Galen
sky4it:
"What I meant by jealousy sex, is where the innocent party goes out and has sex to "get even." "
The 'innocent' married spouse goes out and commits adultery?
Excuse me; I don’t believe that you are talking about standing Christians are you? Is it considered 'innocent' in the church that you attend to go commit adultery?
:-)
I think (In my own little universe) that any person committing adultery is no longer innocent of committing adultery.
Getting 'even' or not, I would find it difficult to imagine that such would usually be the norm of conduct within a Christian culture or group.
I understand that we are heavily influenced by TV, and the media. My foster children come home and we see that everyday they are surrounded by the influences of their common Public School culture. Within such culture, being raised by TV as they are and without any other form of guidance for conduct or ethics; I do understand the concept of 'getting even sex'. As I do the idea that a recent survey of 2nd grade girls thought it is perfectly okay for a boy to slap his girlfriend on the face if she should 'dis' him in front of his bros.
I like sex. I also believe that it has a 'proper' context and place [within a marriage and anything that does not disable or cause injury]. Today's common culture has dirtied it, made it common and so has brought it out everywhere such that it is not held as important to be within a marriage. In today' profane culture, sex is on most every channel of TV, the newspapers and magazines. Even country music I turn on and a woman is signing "I ain't gonna leave this bar, till I get me some".
If I use the Name of Jesus, only with the highest intentions and regard. Then I am holding that name high. If I use that name as a curse, if I make it common; then even while it is the same name, I have lost something.
I think that any person who considers 'getting even sex', has not been living their life or holding their thoughts in any Christian manner.
"I actually have seen this in two cases. One party was unchurched the other party was squarely in the church. Then they go back and live together."
I realize that I am going to sound harsh and un-caring. There will always be people with the morals of an alley cat, or the conscience of a bitch (a female dog) in heat.
I want to love everyone that I am around. Minister to their needs and help them. It is not my job to judge them at this time. It is my job to judge how I am going to lead my life, and who I am going to respect. A fellow believer of high scruples, who worships his creator and tries to do his best in life; I respect even when He and I dis-agree over doctrine. Someone without judgment, without principle can still be my neighbor, but I am not going to respect him or her for their stand with G-d. I do see many examples all around me in life of others who live without regard for principle, or ethics, or their Creator.
“I do think the law touches on the subject somewhat also. It might be helpful to look at the principle of "stoning the offenders" , more as a concept that this is kinda what happens. When the dirty laundry gets aired out, there are stones flying from people not a few.”
The Law was set for our example, as our schoolmaster from a time when we did not have spirit and knowledge of Our Lord to guide us.
That Law has been fulfilled, before us. Within it are good examples of sound doctrine and principles, but that does not mean that we should do everything we find within The Law.
I would not be throwing any stones.
People need love and compassion. They need a greater understanding of G-d’s Word.
Not to say that I will ‘follow’ or even highly regard them if they continue to walk in un-godly paths. But it is still me ministry to offer reconciliation back to G-d.
“I think Galen, its the only issue that contemplates the termination of a marriage. About that i am convinced. I have heard pastors argue many other reasons, but I think they are without virtue. I think in cases of abuse, the bible contemplates separation. Of course abusers typically find themselves in adultery anyway.”
When a believe finds themselves in a marriage with an un-believer, the un-believer is sanctified by the believer, but they are still an un-believer. Should the un-believer decide to walk away, let them walk, the believer is not bound. If two believers marry, I don’t feel that there should be any grounds for divorce.
Having spent 20+ years in the Navy, I was surrounded by people often with the morals of alley-cats. They got married, and commonly while we were out to sea, the wives filed for divorce. I don’t think that I ever went out to sea, except that upon surfacing again, our crew would have at least 2 divorce notifications waiting on us.
I do understand that people in society today, do get married and again divorced. Often they do it over and over again.
How many of these people really ever walked together in their faith? I am sure some, but I think few.
My own father changes his wives like others change their underwear. Recently he has held the same wife, but from about 1977 until 2000, I don’t think that I ever met him twice with the same wife.
“your comment: You mean as a believer who now goes out and commits adultery? Okay I would think that the proper thing to do would be to confess such to the husband or father of the girl.”
From the Biblical example we find in the OT, if a female is married she is ‘under’ the head of her husband. Any wrong done to her is a sin against her husband. Anyone who commits adultery with her is sinning against her husband.
A female who is yet un-married is under the ‘head’ of her father. Any wrong done to her is a sin against her father. Anyone who commits adultery with her is sinning against her father.
When fines were being levied. Those fines were paid to the wronged party. A maiden so damaged caused her father to be paid, even if they did not carry out to possible stoning. Similarly anyone committing adultery with a married woman would have to pay the husband.
“I do think in marriage the offending party for restitution must tell there spouse tho.”
Christianity within our common culture today, I understand within a marriage when a spouse confesses that they have been committing adultery outside of their marriage, it does tend to destroy the marriage anyway. At least this is what I have heard from other sources. I have not experienced such myself, nor from within any of the fellowships that I have been active in. Reading Dear Abby, or listening to the talk-shows, etc; it does appear that once a spouse is told about on-going adultery by the spouse, the marriage from that point on is often doomed.
I would think that some form of therapy or counseling would be in order. In this matter I would NOT be thinking of ‘pastoral counseling’ either. As the topic as a whole is so much outside of the excepted norm for Christianity.
She tells him, of what she has been doing while he has been out working, so now he forever holds her accountable, holds it ‘against’ her and will never fully forgive her. He tells her, of what he has been doing while she has been out, so now she forever holds him accountable, holds it ‘against’ him and will never fully forgive him.
In a society where divorce was not accepted, the couple did not divorce, they stayed together, and they just hated each other for life. I have seen examples of that. 90-year-old couples, and one still rags on the other for what happened in a drunken party in the 1920’s.
Today I think it would be far easier and accepted for them to separate.
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sky4it
Galen:
Yah know you have a well developed conscience, and a seemingly great love for the Lord.
When you were talking about having fellowship , like it used to be, on another thread, I see where you were going with that now. Its true Galen, that there arent a lot of high times and meaningful fellowship in any Christian org anymore (IMO). Anyways, Praise the Lord. U sound really healthy.
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
has anyone in their mind while married ever seen a one you hummed after?
I think JC said something like as well President Carter one has already comitted adultery.
The fine line is in the mind even though one even thinks not to perform such a "sin".
ahhh~~~ the UnWe speaks
;)-->
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sky4it
song:
you lost me? say what?
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Galen
Song:
I am a sinner.
[if that is what you are asking].
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smurfette
I think song was refering to JC saying that even if you looked at another's spouse with lust that you have already sinned.
That gives me heebie jeebies cuz of what lcm did with that verse--sexual fantasies are wrong--and how that was used during the homo hunts to m&a people.
Then my question is: if someone goes on-line and looks at the porn sites and gets off on it--is that considered adultry as well?
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mj412
Smurfette
YES that is sin the bible talks about not going to such place in your mind much less on a pc. the vessel your to use for sex is to come from your spouse and no other... it is written.
a long time ago a way corps gal told me she asks for forgivness every night before going to bed (just in case) seriously we do not know where we sin sometimes but we all do so I have taken up the practice of asking God for forgivness every day for my sins known and unknown. sometimes several times a day.
God is very serious about many matters of how we think or do life.
I know I cant compete and must ask for forgivness.
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mj412
I understand song .
um yes but I hate to say it is so.
mind sex? have mercy but God wants our mind to stay on more Godly ideals.
but that post was lol . your so funny.
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