I understand that you are Jewish. I have two questions for you.
1) Are Jewish people actually able to trace there ancestory to the tribe of Judah? Is there in existence family trees that go back that far? If not, how would the Messiah ever be traced to that tree?
2) I was curious what authenticity Jewish scholors attach to the book of Job. Do they think Job was a ancestor to Abraham or otherwise?
1) Are Jewish people actually able to trace there ancestory to the tribe of Judah? Is there in existence family trees that go back that far? If not, how would the Messiah ever be traced to that tree?
I don't know, Sky. My maternal grandmother once told me we are from the tribe of Levi, but I have never seen any kind of documentation which could back that claim up. I've never really looked either, because it hasn't meant that much to me. My great grandparents came here from Russia and Hungary (and I was privledged to actually get to know my maternal great grandmother, who didn't die until I was an adult) and the only family tree I have ever seen didn't go past great great great grandparents. I don't know where my ancestors may have lived before migrating to those parts or how long my family lived in that part of the world.
I do think there are Jewish people who may be able to trace their families though - there are a number of websites now for just that purpose.
There is a disease (I can't remember the name of it - Tasacs I think) which is only passed through one tribe (if memory is correct - Rueben), so if you have a knowledgeable doctor or a Jewish doctor they will ask you if you are from that tribe before or during pregnancy so they can test for it if needed.
So yes, I would imagine there are a those who can trace their roots back and probably a lot like me who can't.
As far as the Messiah goes, Judaism doesn't focus much on that. The focus of Judaism is the here and now, how to live this life.
"2) I was curious what authenticity Jewish scholors attach to the book of Job. Do they think Job was a ancestor to Abraham or otherwise?"
The Jewish people would recognize the book of Job as being authentic, but the interpretation of what it means could be vastly different. There is the Tanakh, which would contain the book of Job, and then there would be the Talmud which contains oral traditions and arguments about what it means and how much is literal vs. figurative.
As for Job being an ancestor of Abraham, again I don't know, but I would be willing to look. I wasn't raised as a practicing Jew - my father is agnostic or atheist. My mother, well she never talked a lot about what she believed so I really don't know. I've been reading and studying Judaism on and off for a year or so now and mostly practicing in my home. I've only been to synagogues a handful of times.
Anyway, if you are asking because you want to know if Jews believe in a devil (singular) - I don't think they believe in one. But they do believe in demons or evil spirits, of which Satan could be one.
I will do some research over the next few days and see what I can come up with. I've been wanting to anyway, as Job is a topic which has recently come up for discussion here at home too.
I am very interested in the book of Job and his roots. Two years ago, I contacted a Rabbi, who reads in Hebrew. They were to busy to answer my questions. The topic or parellel that has me very puzzled, is who this guy actually was. Typologically speaking, it was almost like God losing his family when the 3rd part of the angels left him. That is why my ears are always pinned back on the subject.
When it comes to genologies I am also interested. My father was a full blood Norweigion who has a family tree extending back to the 17 th century. I am always fascinated by the migration of the Jews, because certain tribes we dont know where they ended up.
Somewhere along the way, someone introduced the practice of sitting quietly with a book and not disturbing anybody. But that's not the tradition. Ideally, you sit at a table in a study hall (called a "Bet Hamidrash") with a friend or two and loudly discuss a text until you've gotten everyone else within earshot involved.
My initial reaction to this methodology was,
"Omig_d, wouldn't such a method be at times, distracting?" Not always being quick on my feet, I still greatly cherish my personal, quiet time to a reflection of ideas.
Yet, I do fondly recall my family being gathered around the dinner table into the late evenings, discussing and speculating the mysteries of life. Which wasn't so much a "disturbance" but a joy.
quote:2) Savor the Journey
Learning Torah isn't like any other study. Other studies are means to gain knowledge. Learning Torah is an end in itself. _It's the experience of asking questions, searching for answers, It's the experience of asking questions, searching for answers, _ getting in synch with the minds of the sages -- the experience of making contact with the Divine Intellect. (bold added by me)
Havent been around in a while, but this post caught my eye. I like to let the Bible speak for itself on alot of issues, and this subject is one of them. We all know Israel was scattered because they broke the Law. If you read Deuteronomy 28 it is very specific about how God would do this to them:
Det 28:16 You (Israel) will be cursed in the city, and cursed in the field.
Deut28:23 The Heaven above you brass, the earth under you iron. This is referring to prison. See Isaiah 42:22 But this is a people robbed and spoiled,and they are HID in PRISON houses...when you go visit a prison, who you see the most of there is probably Israel.Because God said He would hide them there.
Deut 28:25 The Lord would cause them to be smitten(Physical Abuse) by their enemies, and always running from the authorities.
Deut.28:28..Mental Illness,
Deut28:32 Their children stolen from them...
Deut28:37...people would call you bad names,
Deut 28:42..children taken from you and sold into slavery
Deut 28:44 Being the poorest group of people in any community
Deut 28:46 All these curses are on this people Israel for a sign...to let you know who Israel is...
Deut28:68 Being sold into slavery, carried from their land by ships to every nation on earth.
This is what God said He would do to Israel if they broke His Commandment, and He did it to them. In Psalms it talks about blotting Israel out from being a nation, that they would no more remeber who they were. So, whover Israel is, they have no way to trace their family tree, because God said He would scatter them and they wouldnt know who they were, or where they came from. That is the Israel of the Bible's Identification. So if this has happened to your 'group' of people, or a group of people you know...there they are.
quote:In Judaism to study Torah is to "make a disturbance". It is to think, debate, even argue about what is written.
Sounds like our weekly bible study here in Northern California. This also sounds like the school of Tyrannus where Paul taught for 2 years. The scriptural record is Acts 19:6. I hear what you are saying though, Abigail. Christians learn so passively. Frankly, I think it often just goes in one ear and comes out the other. I generally, however, encourage people to express what they have learned from the scriptures. People learn more that way.
came across this scrap of a page in my wanderings: integral kabbala
reminded me of this/your thread re: a different method of study.
gotta be registered for the videos and such to download em...bummer...but I still post it because, imo, even the textual summaries are deep and high and wide enough to glitter and sparkle quite a bit...perhaps even resonate with some of us ex and former scripture-junkies.
quote: BUT, they define studying very, very, differently. In Judaism, one does not just sit and read or do word studies. One does not just take at face value whatever someone teaches. In Judaism, to study Torah is to "make a disturbance". It is to think, debate, even argue about what is written.
As did Yeshua. :)--> I used to attend a messianic bible study for about a year, and one of the things I got out of it was that there was the written law, and then there was what it really meant.
It was pointed out how Yeshua/Jesus would say
"You have heard it said ......... but I say unto you ......"
Yes -- He did a fine job of making a disturbance!! :)-->
oh --- by the way --- the fellowship has a web site, and it is Rabbi Yeshua, out of St. Paul, Minnesota (Kehilat Sar Shalom), though the outreach up here in Duluth is called Beth Yeshua.
Maybe you can learn something from the site. From what I have seen, messianic groups are about as divided, as christian denominations. :(-->
I think all religions are divided. It is no different with the Jewish people, the Muslem's, etc. All ends of the spectrum (from extremely orthodox to the extremely radical) are represented.
I'm not sure that is such a bad thing. It increases the odds of everyone finding a home that suites them. It is only sad that all of these groups have to be so set in the "I'm right, you're wrong" mindset because that is what truly separates the people, not the doctrinal differences.
If all of these groups could communicate without that mindset I bet they would find out they have much more in common than they realize and perhaps could even find some acceptable middle grounds and even greater truthes.
I haven't had time to check out the link (Or SirG's for that matter) but I will soon. I have found studying Judaism gives me a much different perspective on who Jesus was and what he was teaching.
Abigail -- here is another site to look at as well. Psalm Singer is a lady named Marji, who used to do a weekly teaching on AOL, in a chat room called Bible Discussions every Friday night.
She no longer does so, and I haven't heard of, or from her in a long time. Just thought of her site, and thought I would pass it along too.
I don't know exactly what she believes (been a while since I went there), and you might consider them "different" too. But no harm in looking. Eh? ;)-->
Beth Yeshhua reminds you of twi?? -->
Wow -- guess I better look at the site a little closer! They never really seemed to come across that way at the weekly meeting I went to, but then again, it was just their bible study that I attended, and nothing more.
Wow -- guess I better look at the site a little closer! They never really seemed to come across that way at the weekly meeting I went to"
It's their statment of faith which weirded me out some, it's here
This reminded me of TWI . . .
"Statements of Faith and Vision
Vision
Our vision is to restore the worship of the Father in spirit and truth to the First Century model in the hearts of as many people as we may reach with our message."
It goes on to make a few other references to doing things as they were done by the First Century Church as well.
It may mean absolutely nothing, in respect to who they are, it just weirded me out is all. Doesn't mean there isn't things I can learn there. :)-->
Thanks for the other link, too, I will check it out.
Ahhh. Ok. "Now I see, said the blind man as he picked up his hammer, and "saw". :D-->
Everything Beth Yeshua did, was in the context of Jewish tradition (from the 1st century), and integrating that with the salvation message that is offered through Jesus Christ to us today.
They taught a class on the Book of Revelation (while I attended), and were very adamant, that (what they taught), was what might have been expected, or believed by a 1st century believer, with none of the "trappings" that are associated with that book today.
Their reference to the "1st century church" is strictly due to Hebraic influence, and not some sort of "cult" thing that we all went through. They were really big on Hebrew roots, and that is "ground zero" for them, thus the things they say about the first century church.
From what I gather from the time I spent there, they worship Jesus as Lord, some speak in tongues, all teachings are taught as they might have been received (back whenever), and there is little to no "modern day spin" when Pastor Stan steps behind the pulpit. He continually re-iterated that "this is how it would have been understood back then". I can't say yea, or nay to that, cause I don't know. But I did like it that he was teaching from a perspective that was not "modern day".
I guess (now that I think about it), they are similar to twi in a way, because these folks preach the Torah, (LAW) --> and expect people to follow it today. I, myself, have many questions about what should, and what should not have predominance in our faith, when it comes to this subject.
While I believe in the various "administrations", I find each significant, and not to be ignored. I for one do not think that the Torah should be thrown out, even though we are in the "grace" administration now. Yet, I still have to wonder how much relevance the Torah has to Grace.
So -- like I said -- (me aside) :)--> -- they are coming from a format of looking at the bible as it might have been viewed by those who were present at the time.
." I for one do not think that the Torah should be thrown out, even though we are in the "grace" administration now. Yet, I still have to wonder how much relevance the Torah has to Grace."
A LOT! spend some time perusing some of the articles here.
It may take a little time to find the ones that speak to you the most, but it is time well spent.
Not all Jewish people live under the laws in the rigid/steriotypical way we tend to associate with the concept of Judaism. Many follow ritual laws more as a tradition than a religion.
There is a great deal of depth to Torah which is difficult to see without some of the oral traditions and teachings to go along with it. In that depth you will find grace and an incredible sense of oneness with God, a oneness which I found seriously lacking during my time with TWI.
I think many of the articles on this website (though certainly not all) could apply to anyone of any religion, one must simply ignore or replace the references to Jews and Judaism to see it.
quote: If all of these groups could communicate without that mindset I bet they would find out they have much more in common than they realize and perhaps could even find some acceptable middle grounds and even greater truthes.
Rok On Abigail~~~ checked out a book from the Pub Lib "1001 Questions and Answers on Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur" by Jeffrey M. Cohen. Thank you for your threads regarding Judaism.
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sky4it
Abigail:
I understand that you are Jewish. I have two questions for you.
1) Are Jewish people actually able to trace there ancestory to the tribe of Judah? Is there in existence family trees that go back that far? If not, how would the Messiah ever be traced to that tree?
2) I was curious what authenticity Jewish scholors attach to the book of Job. Do they think Job was a ancestor to Abraham or otherwise?
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Abigail
Sky,
1) Are Jewish people actually able to trace there ancestory to the tribe of Judah? Is there in existence family trees that go back that far? If not, how would the Messiah ever be traced to that tree?
I don't know, Sky. My maternal grandmother once told me we are from the tribe of Levi, but I have never seen any kind of documentation which could back that claim up. I've never really looked either, because it hasn't meant that much to me. My great grandparents came here from Russia and Hungary (and I was privledged to actually get to know my maternal great grandmother, who didn't die until I was an adult) and the only family tree I have ever seen didn't go past great great great grandparents. I don't know where my ancestors may have lived before migrating to those parts or how long my family lived in that part of the world.
I do think there are Jewish people who may be able to trace their families though - there are a number of websites now for just that purpose.
There is a disease (I can't remember the name of it - Tasacs I think) which is only passed through one tribe (if memory is correct - Rueben), so if you have a knowledgeable doctor or a Jewish doctor they will ask you if you are from that tribe before or during pregnancy so they can test for it if needed.
So yes, I would imagine there are a those who can trace their roots back and probably a lot like me who can't.
As far as the Messiah goes, Judaism doesn't focus much on that. The focus of Judaism is the here and now, how to live this life.
"2) I was curious what authenticity Jewish scholors attach to the book of Job. Do they think Job was a ancestor to Abraham or otherwise?"
The Jewish people would recognize the book of Job as being authentic, but the interpretation of what it means could be vastly different. There is the Tanakh, which would contain the book of Job, and then there would be the Talmud which contains oral traditions and arguments about what it means and how much is literal vs. figurative.
As for Job being an ancestor of Abraham, again I don't know, but I would be willing to look. I wasn't raised as a practicing Jew - my father is agnostic or atheist. My mother, well she never talked a lot about what she believed so I really don't know. I've been reading and studying Judaism on and off for a year or so now and mostly practicing in my home. I've only been to synagogues a handful of times.
Anyway, if you are asking because you want to know if Jews believe in a devil (singular) - I don't think they believe in one. But they do believe in demons or evil spirits, of which Satan could be one.
I will do some research over the next few days and see what I can come up with. I've been wanting to anyway, as Job is a topic which has recently come up for discussion here at home too.
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sky4it
Abby:
Thanks.
I am very interested in the book of Job and his roots. Two years ago, I contacted a Rabbi, who reads in Hebrew. They were to busy to answer my questions. The topic or parellel that has me very puzzled, is who this guy actually was. Typologically speaking, it was almost like God losing his family when the 3rd part of the angels left him. That is why my ears are always pinned back on the subject.
When it comes to genologies I am also interested. My father was a full blood Norweigion who has a family tree extending back to the 17 th century. I am always fascinated by the migration of the Jews, because certain tribes we dont know where they ended up.
Anyways ive enjoyed our discussions Abby.
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TheInvisibleDan
My initial reaction to this methodology was,
"Omig_d, wouldn't such a method be at times, distracting?" Not always being quick on my feet, I still greatly cherish my personal, quiet time to a reflection of ideas.
Yet, I do fondly recall my family being gathered around the dinner table into the late evenings, discussing and speculating the mysteries of life. Which wasn't so much a "disturbance" but a joy.
Yes, I agree with this approach wholeheartedly.
For any study, in a closet or around a table.
Danny
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Abigail
Danny,
Quiet time would definitely be imporant, especially after a study session of this sort, in order to absorb and sort through what was discussed!
:)-->
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Rachel
Hi Gang,
Havent been around in a while, but this post caught my eye. I like to let the Bible speak for itself on alot of issues, and this subject is one of them. We all know Israel was scattered because they broke the Law. If you read Deuteronomy 28 it is very specific about how God would do this to them:
Det 28:16 You (Israel) will be cursed in the city, and cursed in the field.
Deut28:23 The Heaven above you brass, the earth under you iron. This is referring to prison. See Isaiah 42:22 But this is a people robbed and spoiled,and they are HID in PRISON houses...when you go visit a prison, who you see the most of there is probably Israel.Because God said He would hide them there.
Deut 28:25 The Lord would cause them to be smitten(Physical Abuse) by their enemies, and always running from the authorities.
Deut.28:28..Mental Illness,
Deut28:32 Their children stolen from them...
Deut28:37...people would call you bad names,
Deut 28:42..children taken from you and sold into slavery
Deut 28:44 Being the poorest group of people in any community
Deut 28:46 All these curses are on this people Israel for a sign...to let you know who Israel is...
Deut28:68 Being sold into slavery, carried from their land by ships to every nation on earth.
This is what God said He would do to Israel if they broke His Commandment, and He did it to them. In Psalms it talks about blotting Israel out from being a nation, that they would no more remeber who they were. So, whover Israel is, they have no way to trace their family tree, because God said He would scatter them and they wouldnt know who they were, or where they came from. That is the Israel of the Bible's Identification. So if this has happened to your 'group' of people, or a group of people you know...there they are.
Rachel
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Mark Sanguinetti
Sounds like our weekly bible study here in Northern California. This also sounds like the school of Tyrannus where Paul taught for 2 years. The scriptural record is Acts 19:6. I hear what you are saying though, Abigail. Christians learn so passively. Frankly, I think it often just goes in one ear and comes out the other. I generally, however, encourage people to express what they have learned from the scriptures. People learn more that way.
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year2027
God first
Hi Beloved Abigail
Thanks again because I love to debate the word with allmost anybody
What ever it takes to get to the truth
with love and an holy kiss Roy
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sirguessalot
hi, all
hi, abi
came across this scrap of a page in my wanderings: integral kabbala
reminded me of this/your thread re: a different method of study.
gotta be registered for the videos and such to download em...bummer...but I still post it because, imo, even the textual summaries are deep and high and wide enough to glitter and sparkle quite a bit...perhaps even resonate with some of us ex and former scripture-junkies.
anyway,
I hope you enjoy
Todd
mwah
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dmiller
As did Yeshua.
:)--> I used to attend a messianic bible study for about a year, and one of the things I got out of it was that there was the written law, and then there was what it really meant.
It was pointed out how Yeshua/Jesus would say
"You have heard it said ......... but I say unto you ......"
Yes -- He did a fine job of making a disturbance!!
:)-->
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dmiller
oh --- by the way --- the fellowship has a web site, and it is Rabbi Yeshua, out of St. Paul, Minnesota (Kehilat Sar Shalom), though the outreach up here in Duluth is called Beth Yeshua.
Maybe you can learn something from the site. From what I have seen, messianic groups are about as divided, as christian denominations.
:(-->
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Abigail
DMiller,
I think all religions are divided. It is no different with the Jewish people, the Muslem's, etc. All ends of the spectrum (from extremely orthodox to the extremely radical) are represented.
I'm not sure that is such a bad thing. It increases the odds of everyone finding a home that suites them. It is only sad that all of these groups have to be so set in the "I'm right, you're wrong" mindset because that is what truly separates the people, not the doctrinal differences.
If all of these groups could communicate without that mindset I bet they would find out they have much more in common than they realize and perhaps could even find some acceptable middle grounds and even greater truthes.
I haven't had time to check out the link (Or SirG's for that matter) but I will soon. I have found studying Judaism gives me a much different perspective on who Jesus was and what he was teaching.
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Abigail
DMiller,
I finally had some time to peruse the site you linked. What a resource! Thank you! It is perfect for the learn at home types like me.
:)-->
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Abigail
DMiller,
read some more and I must say their statement of beliefs weirded me out some, because they are so similar to TWI's.
Despite that, I am going to check out some of their teachings and see what they have to say.
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dmiller
Abigail -- here is another site to look at as well. Psalm Singer is a lady named Marji, who used to do a weekly teaching on AOL, in a chat room called Bible Discussions every Friday night.
She no longer does so, and I haven't heard of, or from her in a long time. Just thought of her site, and thought I would pass it along too.
I don't know exactly what she believes (been a while since I went there), and you might consider them "different" too. But no harm in looking. Eh?
;)-->
Beth Yeshhua reminds you of twi??
-->
Wow -- guess I better look at the site a little closer!
They never really seemed to come across that way at the weekly meeting I went to, but then again, it was just their bible study that I attended, and nothing more.
Hope you like the new site!
:)-->
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Abigail
DMiller,
"Beth Yeshhua reminds you of twi??
Wow -- guess I better look at the site a little closer! They never really seemed to come across that way at the weekly meeting I went to"
It's their statment of faith which weirded me out some, it's here
This reminded me of TWI . . .
"Statements of Faith and Vision
Vision
Our vision is to restore the worship of the Father in spirit and truth to the First Century model in the hearts of as many people as we may reach with our message."
It goes on to make a few other references to doing things as they were done by the First Century Church as well.
It may mean absolutely nothing, in respect to who they are, it just weirded me out is all. Doesn't mean there isn't things I can learn there.
:)-->
Thanks for the other link, too, I will check it out.
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dmiller
Ahhh. Ok. "Now I see, said the blind man as he picked up his hammer, and "saw".
:D-->
Everything Beth Yeshua did, was in the context of Jewish tradition (from the 1st century), and integrating that with the salvation message that is offered through Jesus Christ to us today.
They taught a class on the Book of Revelation (while I attended), and were very adamant, that (what they taught), was what might have been expected, or believed by a 1st century believer, with none of the "trappings" that are associated with that book today.
Their reference to the "1st century church" is strictly due to Hebraic influence, and not some sort of "cult" thing that we all went through. They were really big on Hebrew roots, and that is "ground zero" for them, thus the things they say about the first century church.
From what I gather from the time I spent there, they worship Jesus as Lord, some speak in tongues, all teachings are taught as they might have been received (back whenever), and there is little to no "modern day spin" when Pastor Stan steps behind the pulpit. He continually re-iterated that "this is how it would have been understood back then". I can't say yea, or nay to that, cause I don't know. But I did like it that he was teaching from a perspective that was not "modern day".
I guess (now that I think about it), they are similar to twi in a way, because these folks preach the Torah, (LAW)
--> and expect people to follow it today. I, myself, have many questions about what should, and what should not have predominance in our faith, when it comes to this subject.
While I believe in the various "administrations", I find each significant, and not to be ignored. I for one do not think that the Torah should be thrown out, even though we are in the "grace" administration now. Yet, I still have to wonder how much relevance the Torah has to Grace.
So -- like I said -- (me aside)
:)--> -- they are coming from a format of looking at the bible as it might have been viewed by those who were present at the time.
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Abigail
." I for one do not think that the Torah should be thrown out, even though we are in the "grace" administration now. Yet, I still have to wonder how much relevance the Torah has to Grace."
A LOT! spend some time perusing some of the articles here.
It may take a little time to find the ones that speak to you the most, but it is time well spent.
Not all Jewish people live under the laws in the rigid/steriotypical way we tend to associate with the concept of Judaism. Many follow ritual laws more as a tradition than a religion.
There is a great deal of depth to Torah which is difficult to see without some of the oral traditions and teachings to go along with it. In that depth you will find grace and an incredible sense of oneness with God, a oneness which I found seriously lacking during my time with TWI.
I think many of the articles on this website (though certainly not all) could apply to anyone of any religion, one must simply ignore or replace the references to Jews and Judaism to see it.
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dmiller
Abigail -- thanks for the link!! Looked at it briefly, and it looks interesting. I'll check it out better later on today.
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
Imagine
Imagine there's no heaven,
It's easy if you try,
No hell below us,
Above us only sky,
Imagine all the people
living for today...
Imagine there's no countries,
It isnt hard to do,
Nothing to kill or die for,
No religion too,
Imagine all the people
living life in peace...
Imagine no possesions,
I wonder if you can,
No need for greed or hunger,
A brotherhood of man,
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world...
You may say Im a dreamer,
but Im not the only one,
I hope some day you'll join us,
And the world will live as one.
Writen by: John Lennon
© Bag productions inc.
Rok On Abigail~~~ checked out a book from the Pub Lib "1001 Questions and Answers on Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur" by Jeffrey M. Cohen. Thank you for your threads regarding Judaism.
A long while back did we not discuss the cabbala?
rack em
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