I am ROFLMAO. Anyone who comes chasing after me looking for perfection or salvation is going to be in a sorry sorry state! ROFLOL
However, your point is very well made. I like to share those things I come across which move me or inspire me. I figure someone else out there may be moved or inspired as well. If they aren't - its no loss or insult to me.
I did my time stuck in the mind trap that my way (via TWI) was the only right way. It was very limiting, frustrating, lonely, pathetic really. There is so much out there that is wonderful and so many people with different views I can learn from and whose company I can enjoy. What a sad thing to lock oneself and everyone else in these little boxes.
God made us in His image - we carry the spark of God within us. Am I not insulting God then, when I insult the path one choses to walk with God on? Which isn't to say I've never done it or won't ever do it again. Such is humanity.
"Abigail does demand of us to draw a line in the sand and say, "Everybody for Abigail stand with me. Everybody against Abigail stand on the other side of the line...then prepare for your doom." "
I've had moments when the thought has crossed my mind! LOL LOL ;)-->
Moderation. Biblical principle, no? I am a huge believer in practicing moderation in all areas of life.
I agree. From your questions however you seem to indicate that what I was indicating was the need for some phycho neurotic need for extremistist form of religion. I really dont think I did Abby. I do however realize, that that was precisely the form of religion prescibed by some ex wayers and the Jesus movement, and I understand your antipathy for it; because I share your feelings about it. Still, Abby, I fail to see the need to relate "being perfected" with such blight. Perfection after all, stems from grace, which is in deference to these things I mentioned.
Therefore Abigail, cut me some slack, your drownding me in cultist moronic excesses.
"Therefore if that goal isnt chased after, the "hearing" will never come out right. Don't you think?"
I would be interested in your thoughts on how one goes about "chasing after the goal", I'm going on the understanding that the goal is being perfected.
"Interestingly, the Point of the Word of God is to seperate "the thoughts and intents of our hearts" I think if we let it do that, which voice is which can be more clear"
I would also be interested in understanding what it is you view as being "the Word of God."
This may clear up some misunderstandings or at least help me have a better idea of where you are coming from.
:)--> I don't ask these questions to be argumentative. If you tell me the Bible and only the Bible is the Word of God in your perspective I can respect that. Though I am wondering if you can return the same respect to me?
I know I'm being prickly again aren't I? I don't mean to be, it just seems sometimes I can't help it.
Ok i will roll up my sleves and give it my best. By the way Abby, I am not critizing you for being sceptical and objective and searching for your own best view. I think that is healthy.
Your comment:
I would be interested in your thoughts on how one goes about "chasing after the goal", I'm going on the understanding that the goal is being perfected.
Let me tell you my experience. My daughter had Luekiemia at age 5. My wife for the last 10 years has been on excesses of prescription drugs. I lost my business at one time. My college degree I have rarely used. I haven't been to church for 2 years because they gossip about my wife. I am not telling you this to complain Abby. My point is simply what ever it takes in God's eye, to perfect me I accept. The amazing thing to me is this. I really dont have to do anything to impress God. I accept what comes my way as from his higher purpose. Then, I don't have to strive to gain God's acceptance. If pleasing God is doing meaningless things that no one else appreciates, I accept it. I think God is that simple. Somehow in all of this I have stopped caring about what those around me think. Sure it hurts when no one appreciates you or gossips about you. I think this is all part of the process of bieng perfected. Simply letting God build a better character in me.
Your comment:
I would also be interested in understanding what it is you view as being "the Word of God."
I think the Bible is the basis of the Word of God. Naturally, wether by TWI or otherwise it is convoluted in mans hands. I guess i just simply plod along in life Abby, and at times those scriptures take on new meaning to me. Personally, I have seemed to have more success understanding more of it, on a forward basis. With religion and theologies, everything is so pigeonholed by different organizations. I think its dangerous to think something means this and only this. If God is of infinite understanding and we are not, doesn't it make better sense to not try and figure out everything? I am these days so amused by those who pigeonhole the book of Revelation. In one place it says the book is sealed. Why then try to understand the dynamics of the stuff thats sealed. I guess my belief on the word of God could be summed up in this, " I think I know a little, I think I know enough." Thats good enough for me.
Sorry if you thought I was disrespectful, I admit I was trying to stir your drink a little, just to see the way you thought tho. :)-->
That was a very nice response, thank you for sharing so much of yourself. It is my suspicion there is much more which we agree on than disagree. Though there is much to be learned from those with opposing views as well. :)-->
This: "I accept what comes my way as from his higher purpose. " is the Chassidic view as well. I think it is healthy, at least to a point and hope to continue to grow in this area. (I am not Chassidic, but agree with much of their philosophy).
" everything is so pigeonholed by different organizations"
Which is one of the reasons why I prefer to NOT limit myself to one organization or even one book.
"" I think I know a little, I think I know enough." Thats good enough for me. "
I too, think I know a little, and that is good enough for me, for now. However, I am always wanting to learn more, that is my nature, not just with God but in many areas of life.
"Sorry if you thought I was disrespectful, I admit I was trying to stir your drink a little, just to see the way you thought tho."
I'll let it slide this time. :D--> After having spent so much of my life allowing others to define God for me and allowing others to define ME for me, I have become very protective and at times quite defensive if I feel like someone is trying to pegeonhole me. Sorry if I was overly prickly.
This: "I accept what comes my way as from his higher purpose. " is the Chassidic view as well.
Never heard the term Chassidic before. I just wanted to add, I think it may be dangerous to think like this all the time and just be passive. Certainly there are things we can change by our responses to life itself. I didnt meant this in a way that I can sit idle. Unargueably, there are things that happen in our lives that we cannot change. To me its acceptance by default. I just wanted to clarify that.
Your comment:
I have become very protective and at times quite defensive if I feel like someone is trying to pegeonhole me.
A wounded spirit who can bear? You know my spirit has been wounded also after which it becomes hard to trust others. It's my view Abby, that real love from others never tries to control someone. I think you are quite right tho to be protective over your own spirit.
Chassidics are a group/movement of Jewish people. It originated back in the 1400's or so when a Rabbi set out to make the teachings of the Kabbalah available to the "common man" (because prior to that it was not). Many of the posts I've shared here stem from their teachings. However, they are also quite orthodox, which I am not.
One of their beliefs is that we should be joyful in all situations because it is all from God, even the bad. The bad things happen to teach us, to help us grow.
" just wanted to add, I think it may be dangerous to think like this all the time and just be passive. Certainly there are things we can change by our responses to life itself. I didnt meant this in a way that I can sit idle. Unargueably, there are things that happen in our lives that we cannot change. To me its acceptance by default. I just wanted to clarify that. "
Agreed, which is why I said I think such an attitude is healthy to a point. :)-->
"You know my spirit has been wounded also "
Yes, I know. I am very sorry too about your daughter and wife. It is interesting how we learn from each other. I have a son who we think has aspergers. I've spent the last year researching every avenue I can find to find ways to help him. I didn't realize, until you shared about your daughter and wife, how incredibly angry I have been feeling over the difficulites my son faces and causes for our family. It hit me like a ton of bricks after I read your post. Now I know, I can deal and heal. :)-->
"It's my view Abby, that real love from others never tries to control someone."
I think as young people, we took an natural aversion to "suffering for Christ" and whatever that means. We wanted to have fun. It didn't help that traditional orthodox "Christianity", in itself looked like suffering. It made "stuff" like TWI seem more appealing. Still, I never saw how the gospel preaches "suffering" as a centerpiece. If sin is truly harmful, perhaps we ought to have better evaluated what was harmful about it. Then we could have experienced life, without feeling the Bible was hamstringing us.
I don't think any suffering is deliberate from God to make us worse for the wear. Why is it that the things that I suffer liberate me from the very things that I fear and dread? The opinions of men without love and kindness have always felt like thorns in my underwear when I sit down and thorns in my feet when I walk. We can't live in this life without someone evaluating every crook and craw wether they are Christian or not. This I find dispicable. Perhaps this is why, Abby, we need to be seperated from each other and "our beliefs", so that we can all take a good personal inventory.
The other thing I have been rethinking is about what sin itself really is. For example, if someone asks you what you are doing today (because they are making plans for you to do something for them) and you tell them a "white lie", like say you have to do something that you really don't is this a lie? I think not. The Word of God was more detailed and said "bear false witness". It would be my view that a "false witness" would only be sin if it was a damaging lie to someone else. Ie( like lying in court or gossip which afflicts someone). I think this is important becasue if the Word of God doesnt function to assist us in love, it just trips us up in little things that are irrelevant.
Some very interesting thoughts and perspectives you have.
"I think as young people, we took an natural aversion to "suffering for Christ" and whatever that means."
I wasn't raised Christian. I always felt on the outside of things because of that. For me, TWI was a time to actually feel on the inside, like I belonged.
"If sin is truly harmful, perhaps we ought to have better evaluated what was harmful about it. Then we could have experienced life, without feeling the Bible was hamstringing us. "
And perhaps, as you stated later, we ought to get a better definition of what sin truly is. I see sin as those things which hurt us or hurt others. Is it then harmful? yes. But can there be good in that harm also? Yes, because we learn and grow in the process. And if this life isn't at least in part about learning and growing then I am still at a complete loss as to what the point of this life is.
"I don't think any suffering is deliberate from God to make us worse for the wear. Why is it that the things that I suffer liberate me from the very things that I fear and dread? "
Exactly. Is suffering from God or the devil? Well I'm not sure the two are entirely mutually exclusive. I'm not sure that the concept of God and Devil isn't just a somewhat childish way of compartmentalizing those things which we do not understand. I do not think God deliberately causes us pain so much as pain is just a part of living and growing, sort of like childbirth. I wonder how much we would truly grow if all we did was eat, drink, and make merry in this life. Probably not much.
"The opinions of men without love and kindness have always felt like thorns in my underwear when I sit down and thorns in my feet when I walk. We can't live in this life without someone evaluating every crook and craw wether they are Christian or not. This I find dispicable"
And again, I agree. This too is why I can sometimes become quite prickly. Though I know that I too can fall short in the love and kindness categories. But this too is part of being human and less than perfect and this too I can learn from.
"Perhaps this is why, Abby, we need to be seperated from each other and "our beliefs", so that we can all take a good personal inventory. "
I am not sure what you mean by this - would you care to expound?
"Perhaps this is why, Abby, we need to be seperated from each other and "our beliefs", so that we can all take a good personal inventory. "
Simply that, if it always "they" that are the problem and not "we" or "me", I have built my little totem pole of the I am right they are wrong philosophy of the first church of we got everything we need. So that being removed from all religion at times might be good religion in itself. At some point, I must look at God through the microscope of my own soul versus the microscope of religion which says God must act just like this. Yah know, I have to believe that God cares about all details of my life, because if he doesnt, I am screwed anyway. If Christ is the footprint of which we must all partake, I dont wanna say my foot is bigger than his. This is the extrodinary problem I think we all have Abby, making Christ so complex. Since he was made " lower than the angels", for me its about understanding how someone so great can be so simple and small. It is the lesson that is hard to learn; for we want to grab on to the reigns of power but not the meekness of his life. In the end he will rule from a throne that is upside down ( in our view) disdained by the wicked, honored by many, perhaps loved by few. Why? Because the masses want popularity where God wants cleanliness. I think if we miss this we might just miss him.
You'll pardon me if I find it just a tad disingenuous when the (to me, anyway) MOST obvious answer to your question is never even considered by the true believer.
Are you looking for answers or more soothing, religious, spin-doctoring to shore up some weak points in your theology?
Today I think I may walk to the store. Your like the guy who chips in and says, well, that depends on your definition of what is walking.
I can't digress about it either Geo, because to me its just plain stupid.
PS: I like to give you crap Geo, cause part of me believes you don't believe the athiest line anyway.
your comments:
You'll pardon me if I find it just a tad disingenuous when the (to me, anyway) MOST obvious answer to your question is never even considered by the true believer.
Are you looking for answers or more soothing, religious, spin-doctoring to shore up some weak points in your theology?
And the most obvious answer is ?????????????? Your view that God doesnt exist? Splendid, now I can rest with assurance that you just said the same thing beleivers say about God, only in reverse. And what point is there to tell people these things? Are you saving us from a fairy tale existence in your mind? What a dreary microscope it must be to look into and think that at death you are gone for ever? But what if the resurection of the just and unjust comes, will you then say ooops I was wrong?
Lastly, I don't think I am religious and I dont think I am a spindoctor- but when you athiests claim that us Christians are intellectually challenged and non-objective; consider your own shortsidedness, when you lable Christian speech as "spindoctoring."
Your right about one thing tho, I will take some soothing answers to shore up "my weak points" in theology.
"Simply that, if it always "they" that are the problem and not "we" or "me", I have built my little totem pole of the I am right they are wrong philosophy of the first church of we got everything we need."
Gotchya, thanks for clarifying, and I agree.
"So that being removed from all religion at times might be good religion in itself"
This I do as well, though not with a conscious decision of "hmmm, think its time to remove myself from religion". It is more of matter of phases. Times when I study, process, practice, and to step away and take a breather.
"I must look at God through the microscope of my own soul versus the microscope of religion which says God must act just like this"
Mostly, I don't spend much time worrying about how God must act, I spend it figuring out how I should act. I don't even do that from the standpoint of pleasing God but simply out of the desire to be a better person and to make my corner of the world a better place. I figure God loves me for who I am and if He didn't, well he formed, made and created me, so He can figure out how to fix me if He wants me fixed.
I also study to learn more about how to connect with God (i.e. hear him), because communication is always a two way street. I figure the more connected I am, the better me I can be and the more I can do to make my corner of the world better as well.
"we want to grab on to the reigns of power but not the meekness of his life."
not me. With power comes responsibility. I have enough of that right here with my own family, I do not feel an overwhelming need to take on more than that. I have enough on my plate. :)-->
Your original question just seemed so similar to someone asking "Why didn't my horoscope come true?" or "How come my Ouija board gave me the wrong answer?" or maybe "Why can't I ever find the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow? I've looked really hard!"
It just seems to me that the answer may be a whole lot more obvious than you're trying to make it.
But then, maybe not. I'm not an atheist, after all. That would connote a certainty that I simply don't have. I'm just a garden variety agnostic...
I realize I was a bit chippy with yah Geo. Its just I don't get it. My questions are more how does one come to the conclusions of agnostism. ( I really dont know much about it, because of you and Oak I studied it somewhat on the internet)
I guess considering the BS of TWI, I can see where someone might feel that all religions are threatening and posture that way to protect themself. A disconnect is reasonable.
I have to tell you this story. It's true every word of it. It doesnt relate to agnostism but to someone I knew who left the Christian faith. I was attending this church for about 3 years. One guy there was from out of state. He prophesied and spoke in tongues and preached the word. He claimed this remarkable miracle story. He said that God had apparently caused a plant to grow like 12 inches or something in a matter of seconds in order to prove himself to him. He always claimed this had caused him to have faith. Later the church fell apart. After about 8 years he stopped by to see me. He was at a motel with a beautiful young woman and his hair was down to his waist. The woman confided in me that he had another problem. I was shocked. I asked him why he had left Christianity. His response? " I gave it more effort than other people, if that wasnt enough for God, I dont want it.
Your right about one thing Geo, I do think the problem that creates a barrier between man and God is not related to God ( and i know you think thats my problem). Therefore I do have a tendecy to look at someone like you and say, man what went wrong?
"I guess considering the BS of TWI, I can see where someone might feel that all religions are threatening and posture that way to protect themself. A disconnect is reasonable."
Sky,
Check out Steve!'s thread in the About The Way Forums (those who have been out less than five years, why did you leave).
Someone else in that thread referred to those in TWI as being the walking dead - man, what a great way to say it. For those of us who got in young, stayed long, and really believed we had found a path to God and salvation; those of us who really believed we were doing something good, had a heart for God and a heart to help others - TWI kills that. Takes away your faith in God and humanity. Takes away your sanity. Your ability to trust yourself and others. It is one hell of a fight to come back from that and some never do.
Two of my best friends in TWI left before I did, one by six months or so and another by quite a few years. One cannot speak to me at all and the other barely can. TWI was not the glue that held us together - we had much much more than that in our friendship and love for eachother. However, it has become the wedge that keeps us apart.
There just aren't words to describe the nightmare it was getting out and figuring out how to heal from that. I've come a long ways from where I was when I left TWI four years ago, but I know I still have a ways to go.
I have found a way back to faith. But I am still very very uncomfortable with organized religion and pretty much have to force myself out the door on Friday nights to go to synogogue (and boy is it easy to find excuses just to stay home). I still do not have a single face to face friend outside my home and family. When people from the Synogogue call me to invite me to something or see how I am, I get knots in my stomach. Intellectually I recognize that they are being kind, concerned, friendly, etc. But the emotional side of me recoils.
I understand the hurt and suffering that went on there.
As I said when I came to greasespot, I was never a member of TWI. That didnt mean it didnt influence me tho. I took 15 credits of Biblical Greek just to get a handle on Weirwelles and orthodox wacky theories, and after a year came to the conclusion that this was futile also. I did however have a three year stop over with an Independent Assemblies of God place, where the doctines were different but the end result was just as disasterous and destructive.
I guess Abby, with God there is consolation in our failure in "religious organizations." If I didnt believe that, I wouldnt be here. Interesting that the Lord said we would fail. "Make ye freinds with the mammon of unrighteousness that when you fail." Why did he think we would fail?
I think the Lord was wise enough to understand that religion doesnt perpetuate itself. Someone always grabs and organizes "life" in a way it wasnt meant to be. But we must find life and truth from our failures, wether they are religious ones or not. If we don't everything we do in life is a disaster. And doesnt God teach us much the same? In Hebrews, "For God is not unrighteous to forget your labor of Love" We want God to perform in certain ways when we have worked for him, but he denies that. We must ask why? Personally I think its because what we want isnt enough, he wants to give us more than a pony ride in the "I am the best church around thing."
And who among us would have been satisfied if the VP organization or some other one had become the next Jerry Falwell. I think we would have loathed that as well.
So has anyone, honestly believed that "God" has talked to them in such a way that they can be 100% sure that it wasn't a temporary form of mental illness?
The problem is that "God" never tells people, "Hey, go take your kid to the hospital because he has a vascular malformation that can be treated now, but if not, he will have seizures and die" or "You should invest your money in IBM, because they will turn out to beat other companies in ten years and you will never have to work again. Be sure to put at least 10% into the collection plate and then be sure to witness to everyone else about this because it will convert a lot of people."
It's always, "I am God. Don't be afraid of anything." Or, "Fear not. There is a car barreling towards you on this icy road and weaving a bit. They might run into you."
Until people start getting real things via revelation that are impossible to know any other way, and this can be proven, it just looks like all claims of "God" talking to people is little more than their subconscience talking.
"I think the Lord was wise enough to understand that religion doesnt perpetuate itself. Someone always grabs and organizes "life" in a way it wasnt meant to be. "
I don't know much about organized religion beyond TWI - it was the first and only time I have been a member of one. However, it may very well be that what you say is correct, at least to some degree or another. However, I suspect that most mainstream organized churches don't suck the life out of you to the same degree as TWI and some other less mainstream groups do.
"But we must find life and truth from our failures, wether they are religious ones or not."
Again I agree. Otherwise we are destined to repeat those failures over and over again.
"We want God to perform in certain ways when we have worked for him, but he denies that"
Not so much anymore, though that was very true when I was in TWI. I thought I had found the magic formula to life. I do X and God does Y. Life just doesn't work that way. But I was much younger and less experienced then.
"Personally I think its because what we want isnt enough, he wants to give us more than a pony ride in the "I am the best church around thing."
That, and what we want isn't always what is best for us.
"So has anyone, honestly believed that "God" has talked to them in such a way that they can be 100% sure that it wasn't a temporary form of mental illness?"
Yes.
"The problem is that "God" never tells people, "Hey, go take your kid to the hospital because he has a vascular malformation that can be treated now, but if not, he will have seizures and die"
No, thankfully God has never told me that. But He has told me when my kids were in trouble or need.
"Until people start getting real things via revelation that are impossible to know any other way, and this can be proven, it just looks like all claims of "God" talking to people is little more than their subconscience talking."
Yes it does and I have had that debate with myself also. I can't prove that it was God anymore than I can prove it is just my subconscience talking. However, it is what I feel inside my entire being.
But the fact remains that God is good enough to signal sickness thru noticealbe symptoms and
If he told one person what the stock market was going to do he would have to tell them all in order to be fair (because he is righteous) and
to tell you when to witness and when not is like wanting to know from God what shoes do I wear today.
Moreover if he does tell us the future like he did Joseph, it still requires profound faith, for the major way that God has limited himself is in righteousness. I know I can impact the future by faith and prayer.
Personally, when he speaks, I like the personal side of it more, it makes him more personal. And maybe it doesnt have to be "devine revelation" in the sense that that is just a little to unnerving for any of us.
I don't know much about organized religion beyond TWI - it was the first and only time I have been a member of one. However, it may very well be that what you say is correct, at least to some degree or another. However, I suspect that most mainstream organized churches don't suck the life out of you to the same degree as TWI and some other less mainstream groups do.
Your right Abby they don't. They just suck the life out of your with gossip, extremist ones with excesses of meetings, and they really don't kick the asses out of the church of the people that are committing adultry. Moreover, if coveteousness is the sneaky sin, they never discuss it, the more you make, the better it is for the offering plate. The adulterers, same thing, we don't wanna lose our income stream. Take it from me Abby, they might be more well rounded and you might feel free to come and go, but other patterns exist there that perpetuate the organization over the individual. Certainly there are people in these organizations that are really wonderful Christians, but yah know what, I can say there was some really wonderful folks in TWI also. And if you tell them that you don't like something you know what there response is?
Same dang thing as what TWI people said. You must be bitter, or you dont understand the word, or whats wrong with your life that your wife is sick. Trust me Abby, I have seen it there also and it might be more difficult to spot but one thing many of them didnt have that TWI'ers did was zeal. That's why I like coming here. If you and I and some others thought we were investing in God, dang nabbit Abby, I know he will reward us.
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Abigail
CW,
I am ROFLMAO. Anyone who comes chasing after me looking for perfection or salvation is going to be in a sorry sorry state! ROFLOL
However, your point is very well made. I like to share those things I come across which move me or inspire me. I figure someone else out there may be moved or inspired as well. If they aren't - its no loss or insult to me.
I did my time stuck in the mind trap that my way (via TWI) was the only right way. It was very limiting, frustrating, lonely, pathetic really. There is so much out there that is wonderful and so many people with different views I can learn from and whose company I can enjoy. What a sad thing to lock oneself and everyone else in these little boxes.
God made us in His image - we carry the spark of God within us. Am I not insulting God then, when I insult the path one choses to walk with God on? Which isn't to say I've never done it or won't ever do it again. Such is humanity.
"Abigail does demand of us to draw a line in the sand and say, "Everybody for Abigail stand with me. Everybody against Abigail stand on the other side of the line...then prepare for your doom." "
I've had moments when the thought has crossed my mind! LOL LOL
;)-->
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CoolWaters
I figured I could use you as an example and you'd find it funny!
:D--> 
;)-->
Ooooops! I didn't mean to say, "Abigail does demand of us to draw a line in the sand and say..."
I meant to say "Abigail does NOT..."
Going to go edit now. Tee hee.
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sky4it
Abby:
your comment:
Moderation. Biblical principle, no? I am a huge believer in practicing moderation in all areas of life.
I agree. From your questions however you seem to indicate that what I was indicating was the need for some phycho neurotic need for extremistist form of religion. I really dont think I did Abby. I do however realize, that that was precisely the form of religion prescibed by some ex wayers and the Jesus movement, and I understand your antipathy for it; because I share your feelings about it. Still, Abby, I fail to see the need to relate "being perfected" with such blight. Perfection after all, stems from grace, which is in deference to these things I mentioned.
Therefore Abigail, cut me some slack, your drownding me in cultist moronic excesses.
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Abigail
"Therefore Abigail, cut me some slack, your drownding me in cultist moronic excesses."
Here <<<snip>>> <<<Abigail hands Sky some slack>>>>>
I apologize Sky. I do have some knee jerk reactions to some of this stuff still.
"Perfection after all, stems from grace, which is in deference to these things I mentioned."
I will go back and reread with the understanding that this is the perspective you are coming from.
:)-->
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Abigail
"Therefore if that goal isnt chased after, the "hearing" will never come out right. Don't you think?"
I would be interested in your thoughts on how one goes about "chasing after the goal", I'm going on the understanding that the goal is being perfected.
"Interestingly, the Point of the Word of God is to seperate "the thoughts and intents of our hearts" I think if we let it do that, which voice is which can be more clear"
I would also be interested in understanding what it is you view as being "the Word of God."
This may clear up some misunderstandings or at least help me have a better idea of where you are coming from.
I know I'm being prickly again aren't I? I don't mean to be, it just seems sometimes I can't help it.
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sky4it
Abby:
Ok i will roll up my sleves and give it my best. By the way Abby, I am not critizing you for being sceptical and objective and searching for your own best view. I think that is healthy.
Your comment:
I would be interested in your thoughts on how one goes about "chasing after the goal", I'm going on the understanding that the goal is being perfected.
Let me tell you my experience. My daughter had Luekiemia at age 5. My wife for the last 10 years has been on excesses of prescription drugs. I lost my business at one time. My college degree I have rarely used. I haven't been to church for 2 years because they gossip about my wife. I am not telling you this to complain Abby. My point is simply what ever it takes in God's eye, to perfect me I accept. The amazing thing to me is this. I really dont have to do anything to impress God. I accept what comes my way as from his higher purpose. Then, I don't have to strive to gain God's acceptance. If pleasing God is doing meaningless things that no one else appreciates, I accept it. I think God is that simple. Somehow in all of this I have stopped caring about what those around me think. Sure it hurts when no one appreciates you or gossips about you. I think this is all part of the process of bieng perfected. Simply letting God build a better character in me.
Your comment:
I would also be interested in understanding what it is you view as being "the Word of God."
I think the Bible is the basis of the Word of God. Naturally, wether by TWI or otherwise it is convoluted in mans hands. I guess i just simply plod along in life Abby, and at times those scriptures take on new meaning to me. Personally, I have seemed to have more success understanding more of it, on a forward basis. With religion and theologies, everything is so pigeonholed by different organizations. I think its dangerous to think something means this and only this. If God is of infinite understanding and we are not, doesn't it make better sense to not try and figure out everything? I am these days so amused by those who pigeonhole the book of Revelation. In one place it says the book is sealed. Why then try to understand the dynamics of the stuff thats sealed. I guess my belief on the word of God could be summed up in this, " I think I know a little, I think I know enough." Thats good enough for me.
Sorry if you thought I was disrespectful, I admit I was trying to stir your drink a little, just to see the way you thought tho.
:)-->
PD
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Abigail
Sky,
That was a very nice response, thank you for sharing so much of yourself. It is my suspicion there is much more which we agree on than disagree. Though there is much to be learned from those with opposing views as well.
:)-->
This: "I accept what comes my way as from his higher purpose. " is the Chassidic view as well. I think it is healthy, at least to a point and hope to continue to grow in this area. (I am not Chassidic, but agree with much of their philosophy).
" everything is so pigeonholed by different organizations"
Which is one of the reasons why I prefer to NOT limit myself to one organization or even one book.
"" I think I know a little, I think I know enough." Thats good enough for me. "
I too, think I know a little, and that is good enough for me, for now. However, I am always wanting to learn more, that is my nature, not just with God but in many areas of life.
"Sorry if you thought I was disrespectful, I admit I was trying to stir your drink a little, just to see the way you thought tho."
I'll let it slide this time.
:D--> After having spent so much of my life allowing others to define God for me and allowing others to define ME for me, I have become very protective and at times quite defensive if I feel like someone is trying to pegeonhole me. Sorry if I was overly prickly.
Peace
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sky4it
abby:
This blend:
This: "I accept what comes my way as from his higher purpose. " is the Chassidic view as well.
Never heard the term Chassidic before. I just wanted to add, I think it may be dangerous to think like this all the time and just be passive. Certainly there are things we can change by our responses to life itself. I didnt meant this in a way that I can sit idle. Unargueably, there are things that happen in our lives that we cannot change. To me its acceptance by default. I just wanted to clarify that.
Your comment:
I have become very protective and at times quite defensive if I feel like someone is trying to pegeonhole me.
A wounded spirit who can bear? You know my spirit has been wounded also after which it becomes hard to trust others. It's my view Abby, that real love from others never tries to control someone. I think you are quite right tho to be protective over your own spirit.
By the way thanks, I enjoyed your posts.
:)-->
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Abigail
Sky,
"Never heard the term Chassidic before."
Chassidics are a group/movement of Jewish people. It originated back in the 1400's or so when a Rabbi set out to make the teachings of the Kabbalah available to the "common man" (because prior to that it was not). Many of the posts I've shared here stem from their teachings. However, they are also quite orthodox, which I am not.
One of their beliefs is that we should be joyful in all situations because it is all from God, even the bad. The bad things happen to teach us, to help us grow.
" just wanted to add, I think it may be dangerous to think like this all the time and just be passive. Certainly there are things we can change by our responses to life itself. I didnt meant this in a way that I can sit idle. Unargueably, there are things that happen in our lives that we cannot change. To me its acceptance by default. I just wanted to clarify that. "
Agreed, which is why I said I think such an attitude is healthy to a point.
:)-->
"You know my spirit has been wounded also "
Yes, I know. I am very sorry too about your daughter and wife. It is interesting how we learn from each other. I have a son who we think has aspergers. I've spent the last year researching every avenue I can find to find ways to help him. I didn't realize, until you shared about your daughter and wife, how incredibly angry I have been feeling over the difficulites my son faces and causes for our family. It hit me like a ton of bricks after I read your post. Now I know, I can deal and heal.
:)-->
"It's my view Abby, that real love from others never tries to control someone."
Amen!
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sky4it
Abby:
I think as young people, we took an natural aversion to "suffering for Christ" and whatever that means. We wanted to have fun. It didn't help that traditional orthodox "Christianity", in itself looked like suffering. It made "stuff" like TWI seem more appealing. Still, I never saw how the gospel preaches "suffering" as a centerpiece. If sin is truly harmful, perhaps we ought to have better evaluated what was harmful about it. Then we could have experienced life, without feeling the Bible was hamstringing us.
I don't think any suffering is deliberate from God to make us worse for the wear. Why is it that the things that I suffer liberate me from the very things that I fear and dread? The opinions of men without love and kindness have always felt like thorns in my underwear when I sit down and thorns in my feet when I walk. We can't live in this life without someone evaluating every crook and craw wether they are Christian or not. This I find dispicable. Perhaps this is why, Abby, we need to be seperated from each other and "our beliefs", so that we can all take a good personal inventory.
The other thing I have been rethinking is about what sin itself really is. For example, if someone asks you what you are doing today (because they are making plans for you to do something for them) and you tell them a "white lie", like say you have to do something that you really don't is this a lie? I think not. The Word of God was more detailed and said "bear false witness". It would be my view that a "false witness" would only be sin if it was a damaging lie to someone else. Ie( like lying in court or gossip which afflicts someone). I think this is important becasue if the Word of God doesnt function to assist us in love, it just trips us up in little things that are irrelevant.
Well, I rambled on, but its been fun.
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Abigail
Sky,
Some very interesting thoughts and perspectives you have.
"I think as young people, we took an natural aversion to "suffering for Christ" and whatever that means."
I wasn't raised Christian. I always felt on the outside of things because of that. For me, TWI was a time to actually feel on the inside, like I belonged.
"If sin is truly harmful, perhaps we ought to have better evaluated what was harmful about it. Then we could have experienced life, without feeling the Bible was hamstringing us. "
And perhaps, as you stated later, we ought to get a better definition of what sin truly is. I see sin as those things which hurt us or hurt others. Is it then harmful? yes. But can there be good in that harm also? Yes, because we learn and grow in the process. And if this life isn't at least in part about learning and growing then I am still at a complete loss as to what the point of this life is.
"I don't think any suffering is deliberate from God to make us worse for the wear. Why is it that the things that I suffer liberate me from the very things that I fear and dread? "
Exactly. Is suffering from God or the devil? Well I'm not sure the two are entirely mutually exclusive. I'm not sure that the concept of God and Devil isn't just a somewhat childish way of compartmentalizing those things which we do not understand. I do not think God deliberately causes us pain so much as pain is just a part of living and growing, sort of like childbirth. I wonder how much we would truly grow if all we did was eat, drink, and make merry in this life. Probably not much.
"The opinions of men without love and kindness have always felt like thorns in my underwear when I sit down and thorns in my feet when I walk. We can't live in this life without someone evaluating every crook and craw wether they are Christian or not. This I find dispicable"
And again, I agree. This too is why I can sometimes become quite prickly. Though I know that I too can fall short in the love and kindness categories. But this too is part of being human and less than perfect and this too I can learn from.
"Perhaps this is why, Abby, we need to be seperated from each other and "our beliefs", so that we can all take a good personal inventory. "
I am not sure what you mean by this - would you care to expound?
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sky4it
Abigail:
My comment:
"Perhaps this is why, Abby, we need to be seperated from each other and "our beliefs", so that we can all take a good personal inventory. "
Simply that, if it always "they" that are the problem and not "we" or "me", I have built my little totem pole of the I am right they are wrong philosophy of the first church of we got everything we need. So that being removed from all religion at times might be good religion in itself. At some point, I must look at God through the microscope of my own soul versus the microscope of religion which says God must act just like this. Yah know, I have to believe that God cares about all details of my life, because if he doesnt, I am screwed anyway. If Christ is the footprint of which we must all partake, I dont wanna say my foot is bigger than his. This is the extrodinary problem I think we all have Abby, making Christ so complex. Since he was made " lower than the angels", for me its about understanding how someone so great can be so simple and small. It is the lesson that is hard to learn; for we want to grab on to the reigns of power but not the meekness of his life. In the end he will rule from a throne that is upside down ( in our view) disdained by the wicked, honored by many, perhaps loved by few. Why? Because the masses want popularity where God wants cleanliness. I think if we miss this we might just miss him.
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George Aar
Sky,
You're the one who asked the question.
You'll pardon me if I find it just a tad disingenuous when the (to me, anyway) MOST obvious answer to your question is never even considered by the true believer.
Are you looking for answers or more soothing, religious, spin-doctoring to shore up some weak points in your theology?
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sky4it
Geo:
Today I think I may walk to the store. Your like the guy who chips in and says, well, that depends on your definition of what is walking.
I can't digress about it either Geo, because to me its just plain stupid.
PS: I like to give you crap Geo, cause part of me believes you don't believe the athiest line anyway.
your comments:
You'll pardon me if I find it just a tad disingenuous when the (to me, anyway) MOST obvious answer to your question is never even considered by the true believer.
Are you looking for answers or more soothing, religious, spin-doctoring to shore up some weak points in your theology?
And the most obvious answer is ?????????????? Your view that God doesnt exist? Splendid, now I can rest with assurance that you just said the same thing beleivers say about God, only in reverse. And what point is there to tell people these things? Are you saving us from a fairy tale existence in your mind? What a dreary microscope it must be to look into and think that at death you are gone for ever? But what if the resurection of the just and unjust comes, will you then say ooops I was wrong?
Lastly, I don't think I am religious and I dont think I am a spindoctor- but when you athiests claim that us Christians are intellectually challenged and non-objective; consider your own shortsidedness, when you lable Christian speech as "spindoctoring."
Your right about one thing tho, I will take some soothing answers to shore up "my weak points" in theology.
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Abigail
"Simply that, if it always "they" that are the problem and not "we" or "me", I have built my little totem pole of the I am right they are wrong philosophy of the first church of we got everything we need."
Gotchya, thanks for clarifying, and I agree.
"So that being removed from all religion at times might be good religion in itself"
This I do as well, though not with a conscious decision of "hmmm, think its time to remove myself from religion". It is more of matter of phases. Times when I study, process, practice, and to step away and take a breather.
"I must look at God through the microscope of my own soul versus the microscope of religion which says God must act just like this"
Mostly, I don't spend much time worrying about how God must act, I spend it figuring out how I should act. I don't even do that from the standpoint of pleasing God but simply out of the desire to be a better person and to make my corner of the world a better place. I figure God loves me for who I am and if He didn't, well he formed, made and created me, so He can figure out how to fix me if He wants me fixed.
I also study to learn more about how to connect with God (i.e. hear him), because communication is always a two way street. I figure the more connected I am, the better me I can be and the more I can do to make my corner of the world better as well.
"we want to grab on to the reigns of power but not the meekness of his life."
not me. With power comes responsibility. I have enough of that right here with my own family, I do not feel an overwhelming need to take on more than that. I have enough on my plate.
:)-->
Peace
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George Aar
Sky,
Your original question just seemed so similar to someone asking "Why didn't my horoscope come true?" or "How come my Ouija board gave me the wrong answer?" or maybe "Why can't I ever find the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow? I've looked really hard!"
It just seems to me that the answer may be a whole lot more obvious than you're trying to make it.
But then, maybe not. I'm not an atheist, after all. That would connote a certainty that I simply don't have. I'm just a garden variety agnostic...
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sky4it
GEO AAR:
I realize I was a bit chippy with yah Geo. Its just I don't get it. My questions are more how does one come to the conclusions of agnostism. ( I really dont know much about it, because of you and Oak I studied it somewhat on the internet)
I guess considering the BS of TWI, I can see where someone might feel that all religions are threatening and posture that way to protect themself. A disconnect is reasonable.
I have to tell you this story. It's true every word of it. It doesnt relate to agnostism but to someone I knew who left the Christian faith. I was attending this church for about 3 years. One guy there was from out of state. He prophesied and spoke in tongues and preached the word. He claimed this remarkable miracle story. He said that God had apparently caused a plant to grow like 12 inches or something in a matter of seconds in order to prove himself to him. He always claimed this had caused him to have faith. Later the church fell apart. After about 8 years he stopped by to see me. He was at a motel with a beautiful young woman and his hair was down to his waist. The woman confided in me that he had another problem. I was shocked. I asked him why he had left Christianity. His response? " I gave it more effort than other people, if that wasnt enough for God, I dont want it.
Your right about one thing Geo, I do think the problem that creates a barrier between man and God is not related to God ( and i know you think thats my problem). Therefore I do have a tendecy to look at someone like you and say, man what went wrong?
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Abigail
"I guess considering the BS of TWI, I can see where someone might feel that all religions are threatening and posture that way to protect themself. A disconnect is reasonable."
Sky,
Check out Steve!'s thread in the About The Way Forums (those who have been out less than five years, why did you leave).
Someone else in that thread referred to those in TWI as being the walking dead - man, what a great way to say it. For those of us who got in young, stayed long, and really believed we had found a path to God and salvation; those of us who really believed we were doing something good, had a heart for God and a heart to help others - TWI kills that. Takes away your faith in God and humanity. Takes away your sanity. Your ability to trust yourself and others. It is one hell of a fight to come back from that and some never do.
Two of my best friends in TWI left before I did, one by six months or so and another by quite a few years. One cannot speak to me at all and the other barely can. TWI was not the glue that held us together - we had much much more than that in our friendship and love for eachother. However, it has become the wedge that keeps us apart.
There just aren't words to describe the nightmare it was getting out and figuring out how to heal from that. I've come a long ways from where I was when I left TWI four years ago, but I know I still have a ways to go.
I have found a way back to faith. But I am still very very uncomfortable with organized religion and pretty much have to force myself out the door on Friday nights to go to synogogue (and boy is it easy to find excuses just to stay home). I still do not have a single face to face friend outside my home and family. When people from the Synogogue call me to invite me to something or see how I am, I get knots in my stomach. Intellectually I recognize that they are being kind, concerned, friendly, etc. But the emotional side of me recoils.
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sky4it
Abby:
I understand the hurt and suffering that went on there.
As I said when I came to greasespot, I was never a member of TWI. That didnt mean it didnt influence me tho. I took 15 credits of Biblical Greek just to get a handle on Weirwelles and orthodox wacky theories, and after a year came to the conclusion that this was futile also. I did however have a three year stop over with an Independent Assemblies of God place, where the doctines were different but the end result was just as disasterous and destructive.
I guess Abby, with God there is consolation in our failure in "religious organizations." If I didnt believe that, I wouldnt be here. Interesting that the Lord said we would fail. "Make ye freinds with the mammon of unrighteousness that when you fail." Why did he think we would fail?
I think the Lord was wise enough to understand that religion doesnt perpetuate itself. Someone always grabs and organizes "life" in a way it wasnt meant to be. But we must find life and truth from our failures, wether they are religious ones or not. If we don't everything we do in life is a disaster. And doesnt God teach us much the same? In Hebrews, "For God is not unrighteous to forget your labor of Love" We want God to perform in certain ways when we have worked for him, but he denies that. We must ask why? Personally I think its because what we want isnt enough, he wants to give us more than a pony ride in the "I am the best church around thing."
And who among us would have been satisfied if the VP organization or some other one had become the next Jerry Falwell. I think we would have loathed that as well.
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Mister P-Mosh
So has anyone, honestly believed that "God" has talked to them in such a way that they can be 100% sure that it wasn't a temporary form of mental illness?
The problem is that "God" never tells people, "Hey, go take your kid to the hospital because he has a vascular malformation that can be treated now, but if not, he will have seizures and die" or "You should invest your money in IBM, because they will turn out to beat other companies in ten years and you will never have to work again. Be sure to put at least 10% into the collection plate and then be sure to witness to everyone else about this because it will convert a lot of people."
It's always, "I am God. Don't be afraid of anything." Or, "Fear not. There is a car barreling towards you on this icy road and weaving a bit. They might run into you."
Until people start getting real things via revelation that are impossible to know any other way, and this can be proven, it just looks like all claims of "God" talking to people is little more than their subconscience talking.
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Abigail
Sky,
"I think the Lord was wise enough to understand that religion doesnt perpetuate itself. Someone always grabs and organizes "life" in a way it wasnt meant to be. "
I don't know much about organized religion beyond TWI - it was the first and only time I have been a member of one. However, it may very well be that what you say is correct, at least to some degree or another. However, I suspect that most mainstream organized churches don't suck the life out of you to the same degree as TWI and some other less mainstream groups do.
"But we must find life and truth from our failures, wether they are religious ones or not."
Again I agree. Otherwise we are destined to repeat those failures over and over again.
"We want God to perform in certain ways when we have worked for him, but he denies that"
Not so much anymore, though that was very true when I was in TWI. I thought I had found the magic formula to life. I do X and God does Y. Life just doesn't work that way. But I was much younger and less experienced then.
"Personally I think its because what we want isnt enough, he wants to give us more than a pony ride in the "I am the best church around thing."
That, and what we want isn't always what is best for us.
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Abigail
"So has anyone, honestly believed that "God" has talked to them in such a way that they can be 100% sure that it wasn't a temporary form of mental illness?"
Yes.
"The problem is that "God" never tells people, "Hey, go take your kid to the hospital because he has a vascular malformation that can be treated now, but if not, he will have seizures and die"
No, thankfully God has never told me that. But He has told me when my kids were in trouble or need.
"Until people start getting real things via revelation that are impossible to know any other way, and this can be proven, it just looks like all claims of "God" talking to people is little more than their subconscience talking."
Yes it does and I have had that debate with myself also. I can't prove that it was God anymore than I can prove it is just my subconscience talking. However, it is what I feel inside my entire being.
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sky4it
Mister P:
But the fact remains that God is good enough to signal sickness thru noticealbe symptoms and
If he told one person what the stock market was going to do he would have to tell them all in order to be fair (because he is righteous) and
to tell you when to witness and when not is like wanting to know from God what shoes do I wear today.
Moreover if he does tell us the future like he did Joseph, it still requires profound faith, for the major way that God has limited himself is in righteousness. I know I can impact the future by faith and prayer.
Personally, when he speaks, I like the personal side of it more, it makes him more personal. And maybe it doesnt have to be "devine revelation" in the sense that that is just a little to unnerving for any of us.
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sky4it
Abby:
your comment:
I don't know much about organized religion beyond TWI - it was the first and only time I have been a member of one. However, it may very well be that what you say is correct, at least to some degree or another. However, I suspect that most mainstream organized churches don't suck the life out of you to the same degree as TWI and some other less mainstream groups do.
Your right Abby they don't. They just suck the life out of your with gossip, extremist ones with excesses of meetings, and they really don't kick the asses out of the church of the people that are committing adultry. Moreover, if coveteousness is the sneaky sin, they never discuss it, the more you make, the better it is for the offering plate. The adulterers, same thing, we don't wanna lose our income stream. Take it from me Abby, they might be more well rounded and you might feel free to come and go, but other patterns exist there that perpetuate the organization over the individual. Certainly there are people in these organizations that are really wonderful Christians, but yah know what, I can say there was some really wonderful folks in TWI also. And if you tell them that you don't like something you know what there response is?
Same dang thing as what TWI people said. You must be bitter, or you dont understand the word, or whats wrong with your life that your wife is sick. Trust me Abby, I have seen it there also and it might be more difficult to spot but one thing many of them didnt have that TWI'ers did was zeal. That's why I like coming here. If you and I and some others thought we were investing in God, dang nabbit Abby, I know he will reward us.
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