I say who is a man to judge another individual's standing with God? Better to be concerned with one's own standing with God. Seems to me this is just another way to further divide people instead of bringing them together.
For those of us who believe that the Bible reveals the way of "salvation", I think it would be prudent to take a look at what others (like this fellow teach).
TWI gave a very simple "formula" for becoming "saved" and I doubt that it encompases the whole of salvation. TWI minimized repentance (change) among other things, and reduced salvation to a simple confession of Romans 10:9-10. Personally I think there is a bit more to it than that.
I do not see where understanding and teaching salvation in a certain way, is being "judgmental" in the least - except possibly to those who reject the Bible or Christianity in general or even the idea of "salvation" itself.
To these folks, it seems that any notion of "salvation" that is not all inclusive is "judgmental" or "devisive", yet their own self-conceived "truth" excludes Christinity or any other religion that claims a specific path to enlightenment, and seems to judge others even more harshly than they themselves are being "judged".
Goey, in principal I agree with you regarding looking beyond what TWI taught.
Though I do not see the profit in statement's such as this: "To these folks, it seems that any notion of "salvation" that is not all inclusive is "judgmental" or "devisive", yet their own self-conceived "truth" excludes Christinity or any other religion that claims a specific path to enlightenment, and seems to judge others even more harshly than they themselves are being "judged". " Who is judging who?
An opinion was asked for and I offered it. I did not denouce the concept of salvation or Christianity in my response.
What I took issue with is this:
"He believes people have to be shown how they individually are a sinner and he uses the 10 commandments to do it."
Now, if he is simply teaching and allowing the individual to look within themselves and decide for themsleves, that is one thing and I have no issue with it. However, if he or his followers are trying to "show individuals how they are sinners" that I have a problem with. See the difference?
I don't think the way of salvation or getting born again or getting saved is done by way of playing mind games with scripture. Do this one and get that one sort of thing.
Seek and you will find-someone said. If you think you have found it, you have stopped seeking. But do they really know they have found out how to be born again? Or just mentally jacking off with their new found formulas.
Born of water and spirit......the birth of the spirit is not in scripture manipulations but from the heart.
Jesus is Lord-Who is Jesus?
I don't think you have to be a "christian" to be born again.
What I have seen is that they do "interviews" with people and ask if they think they are a good person. Then they will ask if that individual has ever told a lie, and if so, what does that make them.(liar) Then they may ask a few more questions like, "have you ever stolen something"-even office supplies from work, and then ask, what does that make you?(thief) I don't know if I agree with their method, but essentially what they are doing is having each individual search themselves to realize where they stand. Supposedly they are not affiliated with a particular church, they only offer tools (which of course can be purchased) to witness to others. They still say salvation is by grace, just that a true christian will realize why he needs Jesus Christ as Lord, how Jesus paid their "fine" for their wrongdoings, and then genuine works, especially evangelizing, will follow in that person's life. Just a different perspective I have not seen before. Their website is www.thewayofthemaster.org.
". Then they will ask if that individual has ever told a lie, and if so, what does that make them.(liar) Then they may ask a few more questions like, "have you ever stolen something"-even office supplies from work, and then ask, what does that make you?(thief)"
and
"but essentially what they are doing is having each individual search themselves to realize where they stand"
Sounds to me more like THEY are searching the individual. I wonder if this really helps heal people or just puts them further into condemnation. I suppose that would be up to the individual and what they do with it.
If these guys were to come up to me on the street I don't think I would appreciate it--and I would feel VERY put on the spot. I don't like the condemnation part. It may have worked on me before twi. The part I find interesting is that they believe that those of us who just did the "formula" of sinners prayer or Romans 10, without real understanding and thinking through of why we needed redeemed to begin with, actually need to take it a step further in order to truly change our lifestyles and live for God. That's how they explain all these people who say they are Christian but don't live like it--they had a "false" conversion.
Which was my point when I said it seemed like it would further divide people. A lot of the mainstream denominations are finding ways to work together, despite their differences. This is a good thing, IMO.
Those who think they can decide which individuals are and aren't born again are no better than Weirwille and his concepts that TWI was superior to the mainstream churches. It divides people and puts people in condemnation.
That is different than teaching solid ethics and morals and teaching how to put them into practice and then allowing the individuals to look within themselves and decide for themselves where they need/want to change.
I also do not think you have to be a christian to be "born again".
God knows who he picked to have eternal life before he laid the foundation of this earth.
think abut that for a moment.
think about the fact many people have lived their entire life without being able to read the bible or tv!
break open your mind on this.
God is the searcher of our hearts and His words are like the marrow in our bones.... deep stuff.
many are called few are chosen which means it has a level of knowledge and understanding and purpose in a spiritual realm that everyone will not understand in the same manner.
God knows who He will save.. how we get their is a journey that is as personal as the Lord Jesus christ is to each person.
many can say Lord Lord but the door will be closed. I think many are gliding now and thinking way to much about their own abilities to be a god to others .. they may have a surprize some day about who and what Lord means to God for us.
confess with your mouth speaks a great truth in and of itself, i think it is an ongoing confessing of what your doing where your going and how and why with the Lord ..
If God knew He was to offer you life eternal ages before you where born than the actual "saving" may be quite a simple process of decision . but eternal life and making Jesus Lord has many complex ideals involved doesnt it?
I say who is a man to judge another individual's standing with God? Better to be concerned with one's own standing with God.
Seems to fit well with the statement, "God won't tell someone else something about you until He first tells you." This statement rejected the idea of "God told me to tell you..."
quote:Though I do not see the profit in statement's such as this: "To these folks, it seems that any notion of "salvation" that is not all inclusive is "judgmental" or "devisive", yet their own self-conceived "truth" excludes Christinity or any other religion that claims a specific path to enlightenment, and seems to judge others even more harshly than they themselves are being "judged". " Who is judging who?
Abigail, Part of my point here was that many folks here (you possibly) throw around the words judge, judgement, etc whenever there is an idea or precept that disgrees with what they choose to believe or not believe - usually of course - aimed at Christians or Christian precepts. Don't like what someone believes? Simple - just call them judgemental and it makes your side all ok.
Many folks, Goey? I see only a handful of non Christian posters on this whole site. Oakspear, Abigail, George Aar, Lindyhopper, myself. . . maybe a couple more, but not even a dozen. Aren't there a couple hundred posters on this site?
"Abigail, Part of my point here was that many folks here (you possibly) throw around the words judge, judgement, etc whenever there is an idea or precept that disgrees with what they choose to believe or not believe - usually of course - aimed at Christians or Christian precepts. Don't like what someone believes? Simple - just call them judgemental and it makes your side all ok. "
So you jumped to concludsions? assumed you knew why I said what I did? What I said had nothing to do with Christianity. If the person had been Jewish, Muslim, whatever, I still would have said it. The reason being, the tactic (for lack of a better word) appears to be not about examining one's own self but examining others. Did we learn nothing from our experience in TWI? Is this not what they did as well? And did they not also teach that they were somehow superior to other Christian organizations.
My objection had little to do with religion, per se.
quote:What I have seen is that they do "interviews" with people and ask if they think they are a good person. Then they will ask if that individual has ever told a lie, and if so, what does that make them.(liar) Then they may ask a few more questions like, "have you ever stolen something"-even office supplies from work, and then ask, what does that make you?(thief) I don't know if I agree with their method, but essentially what they are doing is having each individual search themselves to realize where they stand.
You know, this is EXACTLY (and I mean danged near word for word) what Kirk Cameron's character does with another character in the (awful) movie, "Left Behind II: Tribulation Force."
quote:He was talking about a true conversion versus a false conversion. What say ye?
I say that there is such a thing as a false conversion. It takes place when a person SAYS "Jesus is Lord" but doesn't mean it. I call it the difference between profession and confession. Wierwille (or rather, Kenyon) called it the difference between mental assent and believing. Whatever you call it, it's the difference between meaning something and just saying something.
"Jesus is Lord." Anyone can say it. But not everyone who says it, means it. I don't pretend to know who does or who doesn't. But I can guarantee you there are tons of people who think Jesus is their Lord, but he's not, because it's a mere profession and not a true confession of the heart. Of those, Jesus said they would come to him and say "Lord, Lord," and he will reply that he never knew them. Strong words, but I think they prove that there are people who THINK Jesus is their Lord, but don't really believe it.
Speaking of "Left Behind," one of the most believable characters in the first (awful) movie is the pastor, who sits in church after the "rapture" and prays about what a hypocritical fool he was. "I knew Your message. I knew Your Word. I stood RIGHT HERE! And I PREACHED IT! And I was GOOD! But they're gone. They're gone. Ah, but knowing and believing are two different things."
quote: ". Then they will ask if that individual has ever told a lie, and if so, what does that make them.(liar) Then they may ask a few more questions like, "have you ever stolen something"-even office supplies from work, and then ask, what does that make you?(thief)"
and
"but essentially what they are doing is having each individual search themselves to realize where they stand" and then --
Sounds to me more like THEY are searching the individual. I wonder if this really helps heal people or just puts them further into condemnation. I suppose that would be up to the individual and what they do with it.
I've heard of these folks, and what they are doing strikes me as nothing more than a different approach to "witnessing techniques". It isn't my style, but if it works for others -----
Folks approached this way can either listen or leave, just as any "potential convert" that one witnesses to can either accept or reject the person proselytizing.
One guy in my wow family used to go to the mall, and make it a point to go into men's clothing stores, and ask the clerks if they would like to be "clothed with righteousness". :D--> No -- he never signed anyone up for the class that way, but it was his technique. :)-->
"He believes people have to be shown how they individually are a sinner and he uses the 10 commandments to do it."
Now, if he is simply teaching and allowing the individual to look within themselves and decide for themsleves, that is one thing and I have no issue with it. However, if he or his followers are trying to "show individuals how they are sinners" that I have a problem with. See the difference?
Abigail -- getting the individual to "look within" would be the best, because then if they professed a conversion - chances are it would be a "true conversion". And perhaps these guys are using the 10 commandments when talking to folks, since most people are aware of (and know "in principle") what they contain.
quote:Many folks, Goey? I see only a handful of non Christian posters on this whole site. Oakspear, Abigail, George Aar, Lindyhopper, myself. . . maybe a couple more, but not even a dozen. Aren't there a couple hundred posters on this site?
Bramble,
My observation/comment was a general one - not limited to posters here at GS.
Furthermore, the usage of the "you are being judgmental" ploy is not limited to non-Christians. Many Christians use it as well.
For example, there have been many times where someone points out the dispicable behavoir of certain TWI leaders when another poster will counter that the first is being "judgmental" in doing so.
Maybe there should be a thread where we can discuss what "judgmentalism" really is - from both a Christian and a secular viewpoint. What many folks losely call being "judgmental" is sometimes no more than making an observation or stating a fact.
It is like when someone takes the view that homosexuality is wrong or unglodly and is immediately met with the charge of being a homophobe.
quote: One guy in my wow family used to go to the mall, and make it a point to go into men's clothing stores, and ask the clerks if they would like to be "clothed with righteousness". No -- he never signed anyone up for the class that way, but it was his technique.
I think that those preaching salvation should perhaps take a little more thought in thier delivery. One should consider thier audiance before opening thier mouth. Anyone who has taken a public speaking course or a speach class will know that what people hear you say, how well they remember it (like remember what you said or that you were constantly picking your ear), whether or not they enjoyed it etc etc., are all contingent upon the presentation of your idea.
TWI used to tout that it was our responsibility to speak, it was not our concern whether they believed. That was the witnessee's problem. We were told this over and over in reference to going door to door or putting ourselves in other socially aukward situations just so we could speak or "keep the adversary busy". ha.
Lines like "hey babe, would you like to be clothed with righteousness" are no better than sleezy bar pick-up lines. The girl, or whoever, always sees through it.
The condemning-guilt-lined-attemps at salvation. What sort of mind set is a person in where they need and allow someone to tell them how terrible they are before they get "saved"? It seems pretty obivious to me who the target audiance is. Why is it that many religions focus their marketing on this perticular population?
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Abigail
I say who is a man to judge another individual's standing with God? Better to be concerned with one's own standing with God. Seems to me this is just another way to further divide people instead of bringing them together.
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Goey
For those of us who believe that the Bible reveals the way of "salvation", I think it would be prudent to take a look at what others (like this fellow teach).
TWI gave a very simple "formula" for becoming "saved" and I doubt that it encompases the whole of salvation. TWI minimized repentance (change) among other things, and reduced salvation to a simple confession of Romans 10:9-10. Personally I think there is a bit more to it than that.
I do not see where understanding and teaching salvation in a certain way, is being "judgmental" in the least - except possibly to those who reject the Bible or Christianity in general or even the idea of "salvation" itself.
To these folks, it seems that any notion of "salvation" that is not all inclusive is "judgmental" or "devisive", yet their own self-conceived "truth" excludes Christinity or any other religion that claims a specific path to enlightenment, and seems to judge others even more harshly than they themselves are being "judged".
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Abigail
Goey, in principal I agree with you regarding looking beyond what TWI taught.
Though I do not see the profit in statement's such as this: "To these folks, it seems that any notion of "salvation" that is not all inclusive is "judgmental" or "devisive", yet their own self-conceived "truth" excludes Christinity or any other religion that claims a specific path to enlightenment, and seems to judge others even more harshly than they themselves are being "judged". " Who is judging who?
An opinion was asked for and I offered it. I did not denouce the concept of salvation or Christianity in my response.
What I took issue with is this:
"He believes people have to be shown how they individually are a sinner and he uses the 10 commandments to do it."
Now, if he is simply teaching and allowing the individual to look within themselves and decide for themsleves, that is one thing and I have no issue with it. However, if he or his followers are trying to "show individuals how they are sinners" that I have a problem with. See the difference?
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Vertical Limit
I don't think the way of salvation or getting born again or getting saved is done by way of playing mind games with scripture. Do this one and get that one sort of thing.
Seek and you will find-someone said. If you think you have found it, you have stopped seeking. But do they really know they have found out how to be born again? Or just mentally jacking off with their new found formulas.
Born of water and spirit......the birth of the spirit is not in scripture manipulations but from the heart.
Jesus is Lord-Who is Jesus?
I don't think you have to be a "christian" to be born again.
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smurfette
What I have seen is that they do "interviews" with people and ask if they think they are a good person. Then they will ask if that individual has ever told a lie, and if so, what does that make them.(liar) Then they may ask a few more questions like, "have you ever stolen something"-even office supplies from work, and then ask, what does that make you?(thief) I don't know if I agree with their method, but essentially what they are doing is having each individual search themselves to realize where they stand. Supposedly they are not affiliated with a particular church, they only offer tools (which of course can be purchased) to witness to others. They still say salvation is by grace, just that a true christian will realize why he needs Jesus Christ as Lord, how Jesus paid their "fine" for their wrongdoings, and then genuine works, especially evangelizing, will follow in that person's life. Just a different perspective I have not seen before. Their website is www.thewayofthemaster.org.
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Abigail
". Then they will ask if that individual has ever told a lie, and if so, what does that make them.(liar) Then they may ask a few more questions like, "have you ever stolen something"-even office supplies from work, and then ask, what does that make you?(thief)"
and
"but essentially what they are doing is having each individual search themselves to realize where they stand"
Sounds to me more like THEY are searching the individual. I wonder if this really helps heal people or just puts them further into condemnation. I suppose that would be up to the individual and what they do with it.
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smurfette
If these guys were to come up to me on the street I don't think I would appreciate it--and I would feel VERY put on the spot. I don't like the condemnation part. It may have worked on me before twi. The part I find interesting is that they believe that those of us who just did the "formula" of sinners prayer or Romans 10, without real understanding and thinking through of why we needed redeemed to begin with, actually need to take it a step further in order to truly change our lifestyles and live for God. That's how they explain all these people who say they are Christian but don't live like it--they had a "false" conversion.
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Abigail
Which was my point when I said it seemed like it would further divide people. A lot of the mainstream denominations are finding ways to work together, despite their differences. This is a good thing, IMO.
Those who think they can decide which individuals are and aren't born again are no better than Weirwille and his concepts that TWI was superior to the mainstream churches. It divides people and puts people in condemnation.
That is different than teaching solid ethics and morals and teaching how to put them into practice and then allowing the individuals to look within themselves and decide for themselves where they need/want to change.
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mj412
I also do not think you have to be a christian to be "born again".
God knows who he picked to have eternal life before he laid the foundation of this earth.
think abut that for a moment.
think about the fact many people have lived their entire life without being able to read the bible or tv!
break open your mind on this.
God is the searcher of our hearts and His words are like the marrow in our bones.... deep stuff.
many are called few are chosen which means it has a level of knowledge and understanding and purpose in a spiritual realm that everyone will not understand in the same manner.
God knows who He will save.. how we get their is a journey that is as personal as the Lord Jesus christ is to each person.
many can say Lord Lord but the door will be closed. I think many are gliding now and thinking way to much about their own abilities to be a god to others .. they may have a surprize some day about who and what Lord means to God for us.
confess with your mouth speaks a great truth in and of itself, i think it is an ongoing confessing of what your doing where your going and how and why with the Lord ..
If God knew He was to offer you life eternal ages before you where born than the actual "saving" may be quite a simple process of decision . but eternal life and making Jesus Lord has many complex ideals involved doesnt it?
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mj412
Psalm 139:1-24
1 O Lord, You have searched me and You know me. 2 You know when I
sit and when I rise; You perceive my thoughts from afar. 3 You
discern my going out and my lying down; You are familiar with all
my ways. . . . 11 If I say, "Surely the darkness will hide me and
the light become night around me," 12 even the darkness will not be
dark to You; the night will shine like the day, for darkness is as
light to You. . . . 23 Search me, O God, and know my heart; test me
and know my anxious thoughts. 24 See if there is any offensive way
in me, and lead me in the way everlasting.
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Lifted Up
Seems to fit well with the statement, "God won't tell someone else something about you until He first tells you." This statement rejected the idea of "God told me to tell you..."
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Goey
Abigail, Part of my point here was that many folks here (you possibly) throw around the words judge, judgement, etc whenever there is an idea or precept that disgrees with what they choose to believe or not believe - usually of course - aimed at Christians or Christian precepts. Don't like what someone believes? Simple - just call them judgemental and it makes your side all ok.
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Bramble
Many folks, Goey? I see only a handful of non Christian posters on this whole site. Oakspear, Abigail, George Aar, Lindyhopper, myself. . . maybe a couple more, but not even a dozen. Aren't there a couple hundred posters on this site?
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Abigail
"Abigail, Part of my point here was that many folks here (you possibly) throw around the words judge, judgement, etc whenever there is an idea or precept that disgrees with what they choose to believe or not believe - usually of course - aimed at Christians or Christian precepts. Don't like what someone believes? Simple - just call them judgemental and it makes your side all ok. "
So you jumped to concludsions? assumed you knew why I said what I did? What I said had nothing to do with Christianity. If the person had been Jewish, Muslim, whatever, I still would have said it. The reason being, the tactic (for lack of a better word) appears to be not about examining one's own self but examining others. Did we learn nothing from our experience in TWI? Is this not what they did as well? And did they not also teach that they were somehow superior to other Christian organizations.
My objection had little to do with religion, per se.
It seems you are feeling a little defensive, no?
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Raf
You know, this is EXACTLY (and I mean danged near word for word) what Kirk Cameron's character does with another character in the (awful) movie, "Left Behind II: Tribulation Force."
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Raf
I say that there is such a thing as a false conversion. It takes place when a person SAYS "Jesus is Lord" but doesn't mean it. I call it the difference between profession and confession. Wierwille (or rather, Kenyon) called it the difference between mental assent and believing. Whatever you call it, it's the difference between meaning something and just saying something.
"Jesus is Lord." Anyone can say it. But not everyone who says it, means it. I don't pretend to know who does or who doesn't. But I can guarantee you there are tons of people who think Jesus is their Lord, but he's not, because it's a mere profession and not a true confession of the heart. Of those, Jesus said they would come to him and say "Lord, Lord," and he will reply that he never knew them. Strong words, but I think they prove that there are people who THINK Jesus is their Lord, but don't really believe it.
Speaking of "Left Behind," one of the most believable characters in the first (awful) movie is the pastor, who sits in church after the "rapture" and prays about what a hypocritical fool he was. "I knew Your message. I knew Your Word. I stood RIGHT HERE! And I PREACHED IT! And I was GOOD! But they're gone. They're gone. Ah, but knowing and believing are two different things."
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dmiller
I've heard of these folks, and what they are doing strikes me as nothing more than a different approach to "witnessing techniques". It isn't my style, but if it works for others -----
Folks approached this way can either listen or leave, just as any "potential convert" that one witnesses to can either accept or reject the person proselytizing.
One guy in my wow family used to go to the mall, and make it a point to go into men's clothing stores, and ask the clerks if they would like to be "clothed with righteousness".
:D--> No -- he never signed anyone up for the class that way, but it was his technique. 
:)-->
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Lifted Up
How about the "mass" witnessing and invitation, such as I saw at the Billy Graham crusade in town in 1987?
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dmiller
Abigail -- getting the individual to "look within" would be the best, because then if they professed a conversion - chances are it would be a "true conversion". And perhaps these guys are using the 10 commandments when talking to folks, since most people are aware of (and know "in principle") what they contain.
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Goey
Bramble,
My observation/comment was a general one - not limited to posters here at GS.
Furthermore, the usage of the "you are being judgmental" ploy is not limited to non-Christians. Many Christians use it as well.
For example, there have been many times where someone points out the dispicable behavoir of certain TWI leaders when another poster will counter that the first is being "judgmental" in doing so.
Maybe there should be a thread where we can discuss what "judgmentalism" really is - from both a Christian and a secular viewpoint. What many folks losely call being "judgmental" is sometimes no more than making an observation or stating a fact.
It is like when someone takes the view that homosexuality is wrong or unglodly and is immediately met with the charge of being a homophobe.
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TheEvan
Good point, goey. In fact Jesus *commanded us to judge...righteous judgement.
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TheManOfa Thousand ScreenNames
Don't forget me, Bramble. (Of course, once you've had the honor of meeting me, you wouldn't)
:D-->
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Bramble
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lindyhopper
I think that those preaching salvation should perhaps take a little more thought in thier delivery. One should consider thier audiance before opening thier mouth. Anyone who has taken a public speaking course or a speach class will know that what people hear you say, how well they remember it (like remember what you said or that you were constantly picking your ear), whether or not they enjoyed it etc etc., are all contingent upon the presentation of your idea.
TWI used to tout that it was our responsibility to speak, it was not our concern whether they believed. That was the witnessee's problem. We were told this over and over in reference to going door to door or putting ourselves in other socially aukward situations just so we could speak or "keep the adversary busy". ha.
Lines like "hey babe, would you like to be clothed with righteousness" are no better than sleezy bar pick-up lines. The girl, or whoever, always sees through it.
The condemning-guilt-lined-attemps at salvation. What sort of mind set is a person in where they need and allow someone to tell them how terrible they are before they get "saved"? It seems pretty obivious to me who the target audiance is. Why is it that many religions focus their marketing on this perticular population?
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