Many Jews have recanted their faith and left in droves. Read the Hebrew Bible (OT for Christians) the sin of idolatry was wiped out only after the last exile to Babylon.
The sin of idolatry has never been completey wiped out. I'd dare say all of us are idolatrous at some point or another in our lives.
Yes many Jews have recanted their faith, so have many Christians, Muslims, Buhdists, Pagans, etc.
What I got out of the article is that we all have moments of doubt - sometimes years and years of doubt. But many of us, when placed in a tight spot, will find a faith inside of us which we weren't even aware existed.
Very rarely do I read such articles from a completely literal perspective. If I did, I would reject most of what I read out of hand and walk away feeling like I wasted my time. In fact, I may just give up reading and researching all together. I try to see beyond the literal and find a positive lesson from it which I can apply in my life. In this case, the lesson being we all doubt at times and should not be ashamed of that doubt when our faith returns. And also that our faith often does return.
I saw a piece on suicide bombers. When asked why they would do it (this was those that didn't or couldn't follow thru to completion), they didn't automatically say 71 virgins. They said they would get what ever they wanted in the next life, life would be happy and great there. "Here we don't have anything." Blowing yourself up for a better life is a pretty strong faith. Why that faith? Desperation, pain, suffering, in short, life sucks. For most people in the world life is hard and hope provides comfort and something to live for...or die for. Purpose.
For me the best alternative is faith in oneself, your own ability, faith in others, and faith in life.
Seems to me, Def. People get terribly disappointed and hurt regardless of who they put thier faith in.
But that is the point right? To keep the faith, thru all the pain a nd disappointment? The difference between your faith and mine is that we can always blame people. They are not perfect. We know this from personal experience. But God on the other hand, we do not see. We believe that he is doing all right and is perfect, all knowing, everywhere present. We don't see him tripping as he walks down the street. Your faith is not only that he exists, but is in every attribute that makes him what he is. So you can not blame him. He (or we IMO) claims to be perfect and since you can not watch him perform his duties you must believe on him word only. Boy, if we did that with a human, we would be up **** creek real fast. So you need to hope and believe that you are right.
My faith, on the other hand, takes into account that people are foulable, but knows from experience and from history the great and amazing things they can do. Greatness is always possible, so is horrible terror and pain. We can't see the future, don't know what a person will do, so I have faith in those unseen things, not naively though.
I did not choose to grow up in TWI, and I hope I would not have chose to. But inspite of that, I was raised a good kid and live a great life as an adult outside of TWI. Go figure. Guess it was good to have faith in myself.
Excerpts from here which I thought were really inspiring . . .
"There comes a point in the life of all faithful Jews when we face the fact that what the Torah says, just isn't so. . . .
The Torah is not a science text book, but uses the knowledge of its time to illustrate the various ways in which God, the Creator, interacts with creation. Nor does it happen when we first note the differences between the Torah's use of history and modern academic historical work and journalistic reporting. The Torah's concern is not objective reporting but rather is interested in using historical events to describe the evolving relationship between God and God's people. . .
The rabbis of old used the occasion of the tragic death of a young boy who had fallen from a tree while collecting eggs in accordance with the Torah's directive to chase the mother bird away before taking the eggs (Deuteronomy 22:6-7) as the critical event in Elisha ben Abuyah's, one of their colleague's, rejection of traditional faith. After witnessing the accidental death of the child, Elisha ben Abuyah uttered the powerful cry of despair - "There is no justice, there is no Judge." Despite the Torah's promise of length of days to all who follow this commandment, the child came to an early death (Kiddushin 39b).
There is no answer to the question of theodicy but there are responses How we respond, gives meaning and purpose to our faith. We may respond like Elisha ben Abuyah and deny purpose and direction in this world and, out of despair, embrace the apparent chaos of existence? We may also choose to respond like Job's 'friends' and deny our experiences and reject the reality of what we know in favor of a mistaken piety? We can also respond like Job and submit before the vastness of the God of All Creation? But as faithful Jews we have another choice besides apostasy, blindness and submission. It is action -- the deeds of love and kindness we perform when we read the words of Torah as a prophetic vision of what the world might be tomorrow rather than a description what the world is today. In a perilous, unfair world, we can hear the Torah directing us to make the world safer, fairer, kinder and more just? We need to ask ourselves, "How can we ensure that the Torah's promises are true?" We respond to promises of the Torah by binding Job's wounds, by consoling the child's bereaved family - by standing with those who suffer and by learning to give and to accept comfort. We are to turn theory into reality (Bold added by me)
Many things that I have embraced in the last couple of years...well, I've wondered if it was all just insanity on my part, or if it's all been a lesson.
These two things:
"There comes a point in the life of all faithful Jews when we face the fact that what the Torah says, just isn't so. . . .
The Torah is not a science text book, but uses the knowledge of its time to illustrate the various ways in which God, the Creator, interacts with creation. Nor does it happen when we first note the differences between the Torah's use of history and modern academic historical work and journalistic reporting. The Torah's concern is not objective reporting but rather is interested in using historical events to describe the evolving relationship between God and God's people. . ."
These things I have learned to embrace about all sacred writings.
Guess if that makes me insane, I'm at least in the same boat as many others. ;)-->
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def59
Many Jews have recanted their faith and left in droves. Read the Hebrew Bible (OT for Christians) the sin of idolatry was wiped out only after the last exile to Babylon.
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Abigail
The sin of idolatry has never been completey wiped out. I'd dare say all of us are idolatrous at some point or another in our lives.
Yes many Jews have recanted their faith, so have many Christians, Muslims, Buhdists, Pagans, etc.
What I got out of the article is that we all have moments of doubt - sometimes years and years of doubt. But many of us, when placed in a tight spot, will find a faith inside of us which we weren't even aware existed.
Very rarely do I read such articles from a completely literal perspective. If I did, I would reject most of what I read out of hand and walk away feeling like I wasted my time. In fact, I may just give up reading and researching all together. I try to see beyond the literal and find a positive lesson from it which I can apply in my life. In this case, the lesson being we all doubt at times and should not be ashamed of that doubt when our faith returns. And also that our faith often does return.
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sky4it
Abigail:
Your comment:
The sin of idolatry has never been completey wiped out. I'd dare say all of us are idolatrous at some point or another in our lives.
Me agree. Its covetousness. It's very sneaky too, disguises itself with self rationalization.
It's a faith numb(er) also.
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George Aar
Why faith?
I dunno, false comfort is better than none?
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lindyhopper
I'm sure for many different reasons.
we crave answers
we crave love
we crave acceptance
we crave comfort
we crave surety
life is hard
life sucks
life doesn't make sense
because we can't really know
I saw a piece on suicide bombers. When asked why they would do it (this was those that didn't or couldn't follow thru to completion), they didn't automatically say 71 virgins. They said they would get what ever they wanted in the next life, life would be happy and great there. "Here we don't have anything." Blowing yourself up for a better life is a pretty strong faith. Why that faith? Desperation, pain, suffering, in short, life sucks. For most people in the world life is hard and hope provides comfort and something to live for...or die for. Purpose.
For me the best alternative is faith in oneself, your own ability, faith in others, and faith in life.
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def59
I am sorry Lindy, but when you put your faith in people you get terribly disappointed and hurt.
remember TWI?
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lindyhopper
Seems to me, Def. People get terribly disappointed and hurt regardless of who they put thier faith in.
But that is the point right? To keep the faith, thru all the pain a nd disappointment? The difference between your faith and mine is that we can always blame people. They are not perfect. We know this from personal experience. But God on the other hand, we do not see. We believe that he is doing all right and is perfect, all knowing, everywhere present. We don't see him tripping as he walks down the street. Your faith is not only that he exists, but is in every attribute that makes him what he is. So you can not blame him. He (or we IMO) claims to be perfect and since you can not watch him perform his duties you must believe on him word only. Boy, if we did that with a human, we would be up **** creek real fast. So you need to hope and believe that you are right.
My faith, on the other hand, takes into account that people are foulable, but knows from experience and from history the great and amazing things they can do. Greatness is always possible, so is horrible terror and pain. We can't see the future, don't know what a person will do, so I have faith in those unseen things, not naively though.
I did not choose to grow up in TWI, and I hope I would not have chose to. But inspite of that, I was raised a good kid and live a great life as an adult outside of TWI. Go figure. Guess it was good to have faith in myself.
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Abigail
Excerpts from here which I thought were really inspiring . . .
"There comes a point in the life of all faithful Jews when we face the fact that what the Torah says, just isn't so. . . .
The Torah is not a science text book, but uses the knowledge of its time to illustrate the various ways in which God, the Creator, interacts with creation. Nor does it happen when we first note the differences between the Torah's use of history and modern academic historical work and journalistic reporting. The Torah's concern is not objective reporting but rather is interested in using historical events to describe the evolving relationship between God and God's people. . .
The rabbis of old used the occasion of the tragic death of a young boy who had fallen from a tree while collecting eggs in accordance with the Torah's directive to chase the mother bird away before taking the eggs (Deuteronomy 22:6-7) as the critical event in Elisha ben Abuyah's, one of their colleague's, rejection of traditional faith. After witnessing the accidental death of the child, Elisha ben Abuyah uttered the powerful cry of despair - "There is no justice, there is no Judge." Despite the Torah's promise of length of days to all who follow this commandment, the child came to an early death (Kiddushin 39b).
There is no answer to the question of theodicy but there are responses How we respond, gives meaning and purpose to our faith. We may respond like Elisha ben Abuyah and deny purpose and direction in this world and, out of despair, embrace the apparent chaos of existence? We may also choose to respond like Job's 'friends' and deny our experiences and reject the reality of what we know in favor of a mistaken piety? We can also respond like Job and submit before the vastness of the God of All Creation? But as faithful Jews we have another choice besides apostasy, blindness and submission. It is action -- the deeds of love and kindness we perform when we read the words of Torah as a prophetic vision of what the world might be tomorrow rather than a description what the world is today. In a perilous, unfair world, we can hear the Torah directing us to make the world safer, fairer, kinder and more just? We need to ask ourselves, "How can we ensure that the Torah's promises are true?" We respond to promises of the Torah by binding Job's wounds, by consoling the child's bereaved family - by standing with those who suffer and by learning to give and to accept comfort. We are to turn theory into reality (Bold added by me)
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CoolWaters
Abigail,
Thank you for posting this information.
Many things that I have embraced in the last couple of years...well, I've wondered if it was all just insanity on my part, or if it's all been a lesson.
These two things:
"There comes a point in the life of all faithful Jews when we face the fact that what the Torah says, just isn't so. . . .
The Torah is not a science text book, but uses the knowledge of its time to illustrate the various ways in which God, the Creator, interacts with creation. Nor does it happen when we first note the differences between the Torah's use of history and modern academic historical work and journalistic reporting. The Torah's concern is not objective reporting but rather is interested in using historical events to describe the evolving relationship between God and God's people. . ."
These things I have learned to embrace about all sacred writings.
Guess if that makes me insane, I'm at least in the same boat as many others. ;)-->
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