So far I have heard some hurt, bitterness or disbelief in the exclusive path laid out in the Bible, but I am curious as to what particular doctrine causes one to leave (that is if you ever truly believed in the first place - be honest now.)
What are the flaws in the Christology or theology?
Sorry def59, but it seems to me your thread is just devolving into one of those we, the Christains are right, you, the unbelievers are WRONG. So I see no more purpose in playing.
I can go back and read the last thread that went there.
Zix - renounce and Reject!
Sky - personal inventory (personal flaws),bittereness and anger
def59- bitterness, anger,if you ever truly believed in the first place
What did you say when you started this thread?
Oh yeah. Quote: I promise not to scoff or mock your responses.
How do you define "renounce Jesus Christ"? What would have to do/say to meet that requirement in your mind?
Do I believe Jesus Christ once lived? Yes, I believe in all likelihood he did. Do I believe he taught some fantastic stuff? Yup. Do I believe he was the son of God? Sure, in the same sense we all are. Do I believe God raised him from the dead? Depends on how you define that - I believe we all rise again after death. Do I believe I need salvation and Jesus is that salvation? nope.
Sky,
"With respect to TWI, take a personal inventory and ask yourself what was it in you that motivated you to join. I aint saying it was all your fault. It just it always was my view that doctrinally they kinda wanted to appeal to the flesh by saying a lot of stuff was ok when it really wasnt."
I joined TWI because I wanted to learn more about God. I was raised by non-practicing Jewish parents in a predominantly Christian, very small town. So when I wanted answers about God, naturally I turned to Christianity. TWI specifically, because at the time, the PFAL class made a lot of sense to me. Also, because at the time, I didn't feel pressured to accept that which did not make sense to me.
Over time, as I contemplated what I had learned, what once made sense stopped making sense. And there was more and more pressure to blindly accept and apply what was taught, etc. etc. you know the drill.
"The other thing is bitterness. Are you folks sure your not just angry at God because he wouldnt do what you thought he oughta? Personally, I kinda think you are. "
No, not particularly angry at God, though there certainly are moments when I am. I think that is okay, many of the OT prophets argued with God.
Bitter? Again, not particularly, but wiser for sure. I harbor no ill will against Christianity or Christians in general, though there are some I don't like, just as there are those in every "group" I wouldn't like. I simply found another path, which for the time seems to be where I belong. I will probably never stop questing and searching, even if it means "changing religions" over and over again.
Def,
"What are the flaws in the Christology or theology?"
Well, to begin with - I simply have not found a Christian group I have been comfortable with since leaving TWI.
But even greater than that, I reject the notion that I was born in sin. I reject the notion that I need a savior. I reject the notion that a loving father would set up a system which required his son to be so brutally murdered. I believe we are all pretty much where we are supposed to be. We are here to learn and we all have different paths and choices which lead us to that which we need to learn. Not quite predestination - we certainly have free will. I suspect when we reach a fork in the road, ultimately both paths are right and will lead us to learn something new.
You know I am really sorry about your experience and I dont have an answer for it.
Niether do I have a complete answer why my daughter had luekemia at age 5 or why my wife was in the hospital 50 times the first 8 years of marriage. There is a lot of things I cannot answer.
I can however look at my own life and say God has always been true to me.
Your comment:
As far as being angry with god etc, that is the easy answer for you, isn't it? Keeps it all nice and tidy--those bitter, angry unbelievers. I can certainly dismiss them. Rather than listening to things the folk here have actually tried to express?
Not really Bramble I have conversed through it all without being mean , condescending or difficult. I just dont get it. I dont know how pure love can be denied.
As far as PFAL being rather appealing to the flesh, that was my experience, that fact that you say they werent like that makes your experience different. And by the way, I have drinks on occasion, I simply mean to say, I never thought that the cross was topical with them
Your comment:
Is it even possible to leave Christianity with out having some major personal flaw
I dunno, I kinda think that sounds like bitterness to me, do you mean every Christian is fatally flawed or is it "All Christians look upon those who leave as flawed? which is it bramble im confused here.
I told you oak one time, I wasnt sure that you didnt qualify as one who has faith anyhow. I fail to see how one like you and is trying to prove everything so as not to make any error ; that there is any error in your method.
ok oak, I took a stab at it when i said maybe some or all are bitter. The reason is I have known some people who are. I will say this about you then, I dont sense bitterness about you ok? Because I really dont.
Is it possible for a person to leave Christianity without that person, who is leaving, to have some personal flaw, in your Christian view?
I understand that everyone has flaws--but the sense I am getting from you and others, is that anyone who leaves your faith must have a flaw, weakness, fault, did something wrong, never believed anyway etc.. cuz only Christians are ok?
I can't help you understand, I wrote my journey as honestly as I know how.
Perhaps it is a black or white world view vs shades of grey world view
disconnect.
I'm glad your daughter is well, I don't know why she got sick, either, but I suspect there are elements of chaos in the world. Things that happen with no explanation. Perhaps my change of faith fits in there, hmm?
And thanks, but I don't need help. I didn't enter this thread looking to be fixed and return to Christianity. Def asked.
Is it possible for a person to leave Christianity without that person, who is leaving, to have some personal flaw, in your Christian view?
I understand that everyone has flaws--but the sense I am getting from you and others, is that anyone who leaves your faith must have a flaw, weakness, fault, did something wrong, never believed anyway etc.. cuz only Christians are ok?
Answer to your Question #1) I suppose its ok considering TWI restricted teachings, but I can hardly fault God for you putting him in the review mirror. You and I are unperfected in our view of God. God is Holy, blameless. And I dont know if that answers your question but that is all I can say. I cannot justify, someone who feels vindicated from the absense of God. I simply dont know how to do it. To me thats would be like asking me how is it possible to live without oxygen, his presence is just that vital to my life.
Answer to Question #2) Yah know I cant help you feel that way. I never said that only Christians are ok. I have known agnostics who behave more like the Bible says than Christians do and thus reap the benefits.
What I have endeavored to do, since leaving TWI, is to start over, with a clean slate with regard to spirituality.
Yes, I do realize that that is all but impossible to do, but I am doing my best.
What I am not doing is looking exclusively at Christianity and accepting or rejecting it; I am trying to choose my path as if I am being presented with a limitless set of spiritual possibilities. In doing this, I have not seen a good reason to embrace Christianity over any other path.
The state of my mind post-TWI was confusion: not only were there a multitude of competing Christian denominations, but even within ex-TWI people there was a wide range of beliefs about what "The Word" actually meant, even using the same "keys". I needed to take a step, maybe many steps, back and regroup.
From my point of view, it's not a rejection as such, merely a lack of acceptance.
And I think what you doing is sorting , but it is possible to know these things oak. And I really feel awful for yah.
It is my opinion, Oak , that anything, and I mean anything from man that does not leave a person ending up embracing God and Christ in love, is anti-God. I just dont want you to believe you can find it any other way, cause i know you can't Just a thought.
It's a simple, straightforward question, yet it always draws a bunch of armchair lawyering, for some reason. Always with the qualifications and rationalizations...but at least Bramble was honest about it. Thanks.
How about if I alter it to be a hypothetical?
Suppose that due to an accident, you were exposed to a lethal dose of radiation and despite the doctors' best efforts, you have less than 24 hours to live. (like George Mason in the second season of "24".) Would you turn back to Christ on your deathbed in case you might have been wrong in your earlier rejection?
If not, what would you really have to lose under the circumstances?
If so, what's the point of being a half-hearted atheist? Few people get the chance to know when they're going to die, so you might not get a forewarning to recant.
I didn't think I was being an armchair lawyer, I just assumed you would understand what I was saying. My bad. I'll do that little syllogism for you.
If one believes in Jesus Christ, one must believe in God. I don't believe in a god, but don't deny the possibility of one existing. Therefore, i don't believe in Jesus as the Christ, but don't deny that there is a chance that he could be.
I add the caveat because I don't know what the future brings, and I don't know all of the past, but as of right now, I don't believe. I could be wrong. That is one difference between us, you can't.
There, did you get pleasure out of that? Just curious. Seems like a strange request. Like I just did the opposite of Romans 10:9 and now I'm going to hell and all heaven can't stop me. lol
quote: How about if I alter it to be a hypothetical?
Suppose that due to an accident, you were exposed to a lethal dose of radiation and despite the doctors' best efforts, you have less than 24 hours to live. (like George Mason in the second season of "24".) Would you turn back to Christ on your deathbed in case you might have been wrong in your earlier rejection?
Lets see who would look more pathetic, or more like an a$$. Me (Christian that no longer believes) on his deathbed and does not call upon God or Jesus to save me. OR God (all loving) sees me (son of God, gone astray) on my deathbed, and He leaves me there to die a miserable death all because I don't think he is really my Dad.
Hmmm. Tough one.
Call it bitter, call it what ever, your the one that posed the silly hypothetical.
quote: If not, what would you really have to lose under the circumstances?
If so, what's the point of being a half-hearted atheist? Few people get the chance to know when they're going to die, so you might not get a forewarning to recant.
Good point, just in case, right? I think I remember that chapter and verse. Lets see what was it now?
I've said it before. If there is a God, I would rather be judged by using the brain he/she/it gave me, than by the fear of being wrong (ie believing just in case). I think Jefferson said something similar. Besides if there is a god and he/she/it is all love and all knowing, and I am wrong, I'm sure it'll understand.
But sposin' the Hindus are right? Geeze, if you embrace Christ on your deathbed, that'll f'up your Karma, won't it?
Yep. I'll roll those dice, seeing as how there's little downside to it. If the Hindus are right, and I spend the next hundred thousand years working my way back up the reincarnation ladder from a gopher or somesuch, it won't really matter to me, will it? I mean, I've never heard of a gopher having any sort of existential identity crisis...
And if you're right, and there's no God at all, I've still lost nothing. I'm wormfood either way, right?
Sure, it's Pascal's Wager all over again, but the payoff for Christianity holds higher appeal for me than reaching nirvana. Your mileage may vary.
I didn't think I was being an armchair lawyer, I just assumed you would understand what I was saying. My bad. I'll do that little syllogism for you.
_If one believes in Jesus Christ, one must believe in God. I don't believe in a god, but don't deny the possibility of one existing. Therefore, i don't believe in Jesus as the Christ, but don't deny that there is a chance that he could be._
That's not a syllogism, lindy. If you're going to be petty, could you at least look up the big words first? Thanks.
I add the caveat because I don't know what the future brings, and I don't know all of the past, but as of right now, I don't believe. I could be wrong. That is one difference between us, you can't.
Whoever said I can't be wrong? Put the straw man away.
There, did you get pleasure out of that? Just curious. Seems like a strange request. Like I just did the opposite of Romans 10:9 and now I'm going to hell and all heaven can't stop me. lol
I didn't post the question to get pleasure out of it. It just amuses me because skeptics aren't supposed to be that touchy about things they've reasoned away.
[...]
Lets see who would look more pathetic, or more like an a$$. Me (Christian that no longer believes) on his deathbed and does not call upon God or Jesus to save me. OR God (all loving) sees me (son of God, gone astray) on my deathbed, and He leaves me there to die a miserable death all because I don't think he is really my Dad.
Oh, so it would be ok if God were someone who made a bunch of rules and then didn't really care whether any of them were followed or not?
Hmmm. Tough one.
Call it bitter, call it what ever, your the one that posed the silly hypothetical.
If it's so silly, why are your feathers ruffled?
[...]
Good point, just in case, right? I think I remember that chapter and verse. Lets see what was it now?
Who said anything about chapter and verse? If you're going to be sarcastic, could you at least make the sarcasm have some tiny semblence of relevance to the topic?
I've said it before. If there is a God, I would rather be judged by using the brain he/she/it gave me, than by the fear of being wrong (ie believing just in case). I think Jefferson said something similar. Besides if there is a god and he/she/it is all love and all knowing, and I am wrong, I'm sure it'll understand.
There's nothing inherently illogical in belief, regardless of what fundamentalist atheists keep pushing. Besides, a Supreme Being might understand all, but that does not imply that he/she/it will necessarily forgive all.
"Suppose that due to an accident, you were exposed to a lethal dose of radiation and despite the doctors' best efforts, you have less than 24 hours to live. (like George Mason in the second season of "24".) Would you turn back to Christ on your deathbed in case you might have been wrong in your earlier rejection?"
I'm not an athiest so maybe I don't qualify for your hypothetical - but I'm not Christian either, so perhaps I do?
Would I call on Christ? No. Would I call on God? Yes.
"Oh, so it would be ok if God were someone who made a bunch of rules and then didn't really care whether any of them were followed or not?"
There is a difference between "caring if your rules are followed" and having forgiveness and understanding for when your rules are broken. As a parent, I have rules my children are expected to follow. As children, my kids break the rules. As a LOVING parent, I forgive them even though I am upset that they broke the rules. In addition, when handling a situation of broken rules, I take into consideration their reasons for having broken them - which are on occasion valid. As an imperfect human, if I can do this for my children, how much more so can God for His?
Abigail: Interesting point if you're Jewish. Hadn't really considered that one before.
On the rules thing, though, look at it this way--if I knew my son was guilty of a crime, I could forgive him almost anything, but that doesn't mean I'd help him break out of prison.
That's the major fallacy in the standard agnostic argument. They require God to be a wish-fulfillment genie and then dismiss Him altogether when they don't get what they want. They want God to be "all-caring" and "all-loving", but they want him to toss being "all-just" when they screw up. Pretty "conveeeenient", as the Church Lady would say.
Like I've said umpteen times before, it's not that God won't help, it's that God won't cheat. That just makes the most sense to me.
Again, your mileage may vary. Prices slightly higher in California.
to you it's a simple question, to me, it's simplistic.
quote:yet it always draws a bunch of armchair lawyering, for some reason. Always with the qualifications and rationalizations...
Well I'm presented with a false dilemma like yours I generally don't fall for it. Why should I (or any of the other non-Christians) be required to fit our beliefs into your little box?
quote:but at least Bramble was honest about it. Thanks.
Yes Bramble was honest. So am I, so is Lindy, so is Abigail. It just doesn't fit into your limited understanding.
quote:How about if I alter it to be a hypothetical?...Would you turn back to Christ on your deathbed in case you might have been wrong in your earlier rejection?
If I ever turn to Christ it will because I sincerely believe, because I have been convinced to my satisfaction, not because I'm trying to hedge my bets.
quote:If not, what would you really have to lose under the circumstances?
Is that why you're a Christian, Zixar? Because you have nothing to lose? Wow! What a great testimony. -->
Maybe I'll decide to become a Christian someday. Maybe something about it will click and I'll be "glory bound" - but it sure won't be because of arrogant, closed-minded, pseudo-intellectual, smug, Xians like yourself Zixar.
"Abigail: Interesting point if you're Jewish. Hadn't really considered that one before."
Interesting how?
"They want God to be "all-caring" and "all-loving", but they want him to toss being "all-just" when they screw up. Pretty "conveeeenient", as the Church Lady would say."
Well that is sort of the God TWI promised us isn't it? At least when we first signed that little green card?
I don't think agnostics want god to be a wish-fulfilling Genie anymore so than the rest of us do. They are just looking at things from a different place than those who are convinced there is a God are looking from.
Gosh, Zixar, I was being honest before you posted your big renounce thingy (which kinda reminds me of the Inquisition, btw, only without the torture. Well, maybe a little torture.)
I was just trying to clarify, since it seemed like you didn't get what I believed from my previous posts.
As far as death bed situations, I was in the er with a heart thing a couple years ago. The whole 'turn back to Christianity thing' didn't even cross my mind. Mostly I was hoping those scruffy young doctors in ER knew what they were doing.
Oh, and another thing!(I forgot this on my previous post.)
The deathbed situation-- to change at the last minute like that. Seems to me a person who did that might be motivated more by fear of the afterlife(Hell, etc) or by guilt at a wrong doing, than by love or loyalty to God and Christ.
Fear was a huge motivator in my experience in TWI. Not a motivator at all in my new beliefs.
I once asked if the ex-Way atheists on GSC would publicly renounce Jesus Christ, seeing as how they didn't believe in him anymore. Only two did, but even one of those argued about it for a while.
Will any more of the former Christians here do the same? I mean, if you're absolutely certain that Jesus was just some myth, fable, or even an exaggeration of a possibly-real person, there's no point in leaving yourself an "out" just in case you're wrong, is there?
This nonsense again? Why does it matter whether someone jumps through your silly little hoops?
I don’t publicly renounce Santa Claus before people who believe in him. That would serve no purpose, except to hurt them. Rather than renouncing Santa, I actually play along with the Santa fantasy, if I think it will bring happiness to others. I also don’t publicly renounce Jesus before people who believe in him, and I sometimes play along with the Jesus fantasy, if I think it will bring happiness (comfort, whatever) to others, who may believe in it. If I go to a religious service, I behave like a believer. I’ll sing their songs, pray their prayers, and participate in their rituals. If I am sitting down to dinner with a person who prays, I bow my head and say “amen” at the end. If I think that some Biblical passage will help a Christian, I’ll bring it up. I’d do the same sort of things with people of other faiths. There’s just no upside to renouncing or denouncing other people’s religious beliefs, if they’re causing no harm.
You seem incapable of understanding the nature of non-belief, at least my sort of non-belief. You see it as rejection. I don’t reject “God.” I just think that the “God” concept is, depending on the particular person and circumstances, either a metaphor (actually personification, like Mother Nature) or a fantasy. I don’t reject Jesus. I think he is a fictional character, possibly based in part on one or more real people, but fiction can often convey ideas better than non-fiction. I don’t “reject” Christianity. I don’t believe it as reality, but I like Christian mythology, which provokes thought, teaches some good lessons, and sets forth a pretty good morality, all in a rather compelling dramatic setting. The same can be said for other mythologies and traditions, including some that aren’t overtly religious. To greater or lesser degrees, it can also be said of all sorts of fiction, from the great classics to fairy tales. I don’t renounce, denounce, or reject any of them. I accept them for what I think them to be and draw all sorts of things from them, without ever feeling the need to “take a stand” on whether or not they are “the truth.”
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Oakspear
yeah sky, I'm sure
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def59
So far I have heard some hurt, bitterness or disbelief in the exclusive path laid out in the Bible, but I am curious as to what particular doctrine causes one to leave (that is if you ever truly believed in the first place - be honest now.)
What are the flaws in the Christology or theology?
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Bramble
Sorry def59, but it seems to me your thread is just devolving into one of those we, the Christains are right, you, the unbelievers are WRONG. So I see no more purpose in playing.
I can go back and read the last thread that went there.
Zix - renounce and Reject!
Sky - personal inventory (personal flaws),bittereness and anger
def59- bitterness, anger,if you ever truly believed in the first place
What did you say when you started this thread?
Oh yeah. Quote: I promise not to scoff or mock your responses.
You've lost my trust in your ability to do that.
Later
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Abigail
Zix,
How do you define "renounce Jesus Christ"? What would have to do/say to meet that requirement in your mind?
Do I believe Jesus Christ once lived? Yes, I believe in all likelihood he did. Do I believe he taught some fantastic stuff? Yup. Do I believe he was the son of God? Sure, in the same sense we all are. Do I believe God raised him from the dead? Depends on how you define that - I believe we all rise again after death. Do I believe I need salvation and Jesus is that salvation? nope.
Sky,
"With respect to TWI, take a personal inventory and ask yourself what was it in you that motivated you to join. I aint saying it was all your fault. It just it always was my view that doctrinally they kinda wanted to appeal to the flesh by saying a lot of stuff was ok when it really wasnt."
I joined TWI because I wanted to learn more about God. I was raised by non-practicing Jewish parents in a predominantly Christian, very small town. So when I wanted answers about God, naturally I turned to Christianity. TWI specifically, because at the time, the PFAL class made a lot of sense to me. Also, because at the time, I didn't feel pressured to accept that which did not make sense to me.
Over time, as I contemplated what I had learned, what once made sense stopped making sense. And there was more and more pressure to blindly accept and apply what was taught, etc. etc. you know the drill.
"The other thing is bitterness. Are you folks sure your not just angry at God because he wouldnt do what you thought he oughta? Personally, I kinda think you are. "
No, not particularly angry at God, though there certainly are moments when I am. I think that is okay, many of the OT prophets argued with God.
Bitter? Again, not particularly, but wiser for sure. I harbor no ill will against Christianity or Christians in general, though there are some I don't like, just as there are those in every "group" I wouldn't like. I simply found another path, which for the time seems to be where I belong. I will probably never stop questing and searching, even if it means "changing religions" over and over again.
Def,
"What are the flaws in the Christology or theology?"
Well, to begin with - I simply have not found a Christian group I have been comfortable with since leaving TWI.
But even greater than that, I reject the notion that I was born in sin. I reject the notion that I need a savior. I reject the notion that a loving father would set up a system which required his son to be so brutally murdered. I believe we are all pretty much where we are supposed to be. We are here to learn and we all have different paths and choices which lead us to that which we need to learn. Not quite predestination - we certainly have free will. I suspect when we reach a fork in the road, ultimately both paths are right and will lead us to learn something new.
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sky4it
Bramble:
You know I am really sorry about your experience and I dont have an answer for it.
Niether do I have a complete answer why my daughter had luekemia at age 5 or why my wife was in the hospital 50 times the first 8 years of marriage. There is a lot of things I cannot answer.
I can however look at my own life and say God has always been true to me.
Your comment:
As far as being angry with god etc, that is the easy answer for you, isn't it? Keeps it all nice and tidy--those bitter, angry unbelievers. I can certainly dismiss them. Rather than listening to things the folk here have actually tried to express?
Not really Bramble I have conversed through it all without being mean , condescending or difficult. I just dont get it. I dont know how pure love can be denied.
As far as PFAL being rather appealing to the flesh, that was my experience, that fact that you say they werent like that makes your experience different. And by the way, I have drinks on occasion, I simply mean to say, I never thought that the cross was topical with them
Your comment:
Is it even possible to leave Christianity with out having some major personal flaw
I dunno, I kinda think that sounds like bitterness to me, do you mean every Christian is fatally flawed or is it "All Christians look upon those who leave as flawed? which is it bramble im confused here.
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sky4it
oak:
thy comment:
yeah sky, I'm sure
I told you oak one time, I wasnt sure that you didnt qualify as one who has faith anyhow. I fail to see how one like you and is trying to prove everything so as not to make any error ; that there is any error in your method.
ok oak, I took a stab at it when i said maybe some or all are bitter. The reason is I have known some people who are. I will say this about you then, I dont sense bitterness about you ok? Because I really dont.
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Bramble
To clarify
:(-->sorry)
Is it possible for a person to leave Christianity without that person, who is leaving, to have some personal flaw, in your Christian view?
I understand that everyone has flaws--but the sense I am getting from you and others, is that anyone who leaves your faith must have a flaw, weakness, fault, did something wrong, never believed anyway etc.. cuz only Christians are ok?
I can't help you understand, I wrote my journey as honestly as I know how.
Perhaps it is a black or white world view vs shades of grey world view
disconnect.
I'm glad your daughter is well, I don't know why she got sick, either, but I suspect there are elements of chaos in the world. Things that happen with no explanation. Perhaps my change of faith fits in there, hmm?
And thanks, but I don't need help. I didn't enter this thread looking to be fixed and return to Christianity. Def asked.
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sky4it
Bramble:
Is it possible for a person to leave Christianity without that person, who is leaving, to have some personal flaw, in your Christian view?
I understand that everyone has flaws--but the sense I am getting from you and others, is that anyone who leaves your faith must have a flaw, weakness, fault, did something wrong, never believed anyway etc.. cuz only Christians are ok?
Answer to your Question #1) I suppose its ok considering TWI restricted teachings, but I can hardly fault God for you putting him in the review mirror. You and I are unperfected in our view of God. God is Holy, blameless. And I dont know if that answers your question but that is all I can say. I cannot justify, someone who feels vindicated from the absense of God. I simply dont know how to do it. To me thats would be like asking me how is it possible to live without oxygen, his presence is just that vital to my life.
Answer to Question #2) Yah know I cant help you feel that way. I never said that only Christians are ok. I have known agnostics who behave more like the Bible says than Christians do and thus reap the benefits.
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Oakspear
What I have endeavored to do, since leaving TWI, is to start over, with a clean slate with regard to spirituality.
Yes, I do realize that that is all but impossible to do, but I am doing my best.
What I am not doing is looking exclusively at Christianity and accepting or rejecting it; I am trying to choose my path as if I am being presented with a limitless set of spiritual possibilities. In doing this, I have not seen a good reason to embrace Christianity over any other path.
The state of my mind post-TWI was confusion: not only were there a multitude of competing Christian denominations, but even within ex-TWI people there was a wide range of beliefs about what "The Word" actually meant, even using the same "keys". I needed to take a step, maybe many steps, back and regroup.
From my point of view, it's not a rejection as such, merely a lack of acceptance.
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sky4it
OAK:
And I think what you doing is sorting , but it is possible to know these things oak. And I really feel awful for yah.
It is my opinion, Oak , that anything, and I mean anything from man that does not leave a person ending up embracing God and Christ in love, is anti-God. I just dont want you to believe you can find it any other way, cause i know you can't Just a thought.
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Zixar
It's a simple, straightforward question, yet it always draws a bunch of armchair lawyering, for some reason. Always with the qualifications and rationalizations...but at least Bramble was honest about it. Thanks.
How about if I alter it to be a hypothetical?
Suppose that due to an accident, you were exposed to a lethal dose of radiation and despite the doctors' best efforts, you have less than 24 hours to live. (like George Mason in the second season of "24".) Would you turn back to Christ on your deathbed in case you might have been wrong in your earlier rejection?
If not, what would you really have to lose under the circumstances?
If so, what's the point of being a half-hearted atheist? Few people get the chance to know when they're going to die, so you might not get a forewarning to recant.
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George Aar
Zixar,
But sposin' the Hindus are right? Geeze, if you embrace Christ on your deathbed, that'll f'up your Karma, won't it?
And sky, re: "I just dont want you to believe you can find it any other way, cause i know you can't Just a thought."
Sorry to answer for Oak (hey, he did it for me), but you KNOW no such thing. You may BELIEVE it, but you don't know it.
Belief may be very pervasive, but it's no substitute for reality, no matter how much you'd like it to be.
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lindyhopper
I'm sorry Zix,
I didn't think I was being an armchair lawyer, I just assumed you would understand what I was saying. My bad. I'll do that little syllogism for you.
If one believes in Jesus Christ, one must believe in God. I don't believe in a god, but don't deny the possibility of one existing. Therefore, i don't believe in Jesus as the Christ, but don't deny that there is a chance that he could be.
I add the caveat because I don't know what the future brings, and I don't know all of the past, but as of right now, I don't believe. I could be wrong. That is one difference between us, you can't.
There, did you get pleasure out of that? Just curious. Seems like a strange request. Like I just did the opposite of Romans 10:9 and now I'm going to hell and all heaven can't stop me. lol
Lets see who would look more pathetic, or more like an a$$. Me (Christian that no longer believes) on his deathbed and does not call upon God or Jesus to save me. OR God (all loving) sees me (son of God, gone astray) on my deathbed, and He leaves me there to die a miserable death all because I don't think he is really my Dad.
Hmmm. Tough one.
Call it bitter, call it what ever, your the one that posed the silly hypothetical.
Good point, just in case, right? I think I remember that chapter and verse. Lets see what was it now?
I've said it before. If there is a God, I would rather be judged by using the brain he/she/it gave me, than by the fear of being wrong (ie believing just in case). I think Jefferson said something similar. Besides if there is a god and he/she/it is all love and all knowing, and I am wrong, I'm sure it'll understand.
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lindyhopper
Actually, in the two senarios I just gave, it seems that between me and God, God is the one that is bitter.
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lindyhopper
As to whether or not I ever truly believed...
Good question, I have wondered that myself. hard to say.
Got to go to work. I have a job now. Guess that means I can start eating again.
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Zixar
And if you're right, and there's no God at all, I've still lost nothing. I'm wormfood either way, right?
Sure, it's Pascal's Wager all over again, but the payoff for Christianity holds higher appeal for me than reaching nirvana. Your mileage may vary.
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Zixar
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Abigail
"Suppose that due to an accident, you were exposed to a lethal dose of radiation and despite the doctors' best efforts, you have less than 24 hours to live. (like George Mason in the second season of "24".) Would you turn back to Christ on your deathbed in case you might have been wrong in your earlier rejection?"
I'm not an athiest so maybe I don't qualify for your hypothetical - but I'm not Christian either, so perhaps I do?
Would I call on Christ? No. Would I call on God? Yes.
"Oh, so it would be ok if God were someone who made a bunch of rules and then didn't really care whether any of them were followed or not?"
There is a difference between "caring if your rules are followed" and having forgiveness and understanding for when your rules are broken. As a parent, I have rules my children are expected to follow. As children, my kids break the rules. As a LOVING parent, I forgive them even though I am upset that they broke the rules. In addition, when handling a situation of broken rules, I take into consideration their reasons for having broken them - which are on occasion valid. As an imperfect human, if I can do this for my children, how much more so can God for His?
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Zixar
Abigail: Interesting point if you're Jewish. Hadn't really considered that one before.
On the rules thing, though, look at it this way--if I knew my son was guilty of a crime, I could forgive him almost anything, but that doesn't mean I'd help him break out of prison.
That's the major fallacy in the standard agnostic argument. They require God to be a wish-fulfillment genie and then dismiss Him altogether when they don't get what they want. They want God to be "all-caring" and "all-loving", but they want him to toss being "all-just" when they screw up. Pretty "conveeeenient", as the Church Lady would say.
Like I've said umpteen times before, it's not that God won't help, it's that God won't cheat. That just makes the most sense to me.
Again, your mileage may vary. Prices slightly higher in California.
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Oakspear
Maybe I'll decide to become a Christian someday. Maybe something about it will click and I'll be "glory bound" - but it sure won't be because of arrogant, closed-minded, pseudo-intellectual, smug, Xians like yourself Zixar.
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Abigail
"Abigail: Interesting point if you're Jewish. Hadn't really considered that one before."
Interesting how?
"They want God to be "all-caring" and "all-loving", but they want him to toss being "all-just" when they screw up. Pretty "conveeeenient", as the Church Lady would say."
Well that is sort of the God TWI promised us isn't it? At least when we first signed that little green card?
I don't think agnostics want god to be a wish-fulfilling Genie anymore so than the rest of us do. They are just looking at things from a different place than those who are convinced there is a God are looking from.
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Bramble
Gosh, Zixar, I was being honest before you posted your big renounce thingy (which kinda reminds me of the Inquisition, btw, only without the torture. Well, maybe a little torture.)
I was just trying to clarify, since it seemed like you didn't get what I believed from my previous posts.
As far as death bed situations, I was in the er with a heart thing a couple years ago. The whole 'turn back to Christianity thing' didn't even cross my mind. Mostly I was hoping those scruffy young doctors in ER knew what they were doing.
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Bramble
Oh, and another thing!(I forgot this on my previous post.)
The deathbed situation-- to change at the last minute like that. Seems to me a person who did that might be motivated more by fear of the afterlife(Hell, etc) or by guilt at a wrong doing, than by love or loyalty to God and Christ.
Fear was a huge motivator in my experience in TWI. Not a motivator at all in my new beliefs.
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LG
I don’t publicly renounce Santa Claus before people who believe in him. That would serve no purpose, except to hurt them. Rather than renouncing Santa, I actually play along with the Santa fantasy, if I think it will bring happiness to others. I also don’t publicly renounce Jesus before people who believe in him, and I sometimes play along with the Jesus fantasy, if I think it will bring happiness (comfort, whatever) to others, who may believe in it. If I go to a religious service, I behave like a believer. I’ll sing their songs, pray their prayers, and participate in their rituals. If I am sitting down to dinner with a person who prays, I bow my head and say “amen” at the end. If I think that some Biblical passage will help a Christian, I’ll bring it up. I’d do the same sort of things with people of other faiths. There’s just no upside to renouncing or denouncing other people’s religious beliefs, if they’re causing no harm.
You seem incapable of understanding the nature of non-belief, at least my sort of non-belief. You see it as rejection. I don’t reject “God.” I just think that the “God” concept is, depending on the particular person and circumstances, either a metaphor (actually personification, like Mother Nature) or a fantasy. I don’t reject Jesus. I think he is a fictional character, possibly based in part on one or more real people, but fiction can often convey ideas better than non-fiction. I don’t “reject” Christianity. I don’t believe it as reality, but I like Christian mythology, which provokes thought, teaches some good lessons, and sets forth a pretty good morality, all in a rather compelling dramatic setting. The same can be said for other mythologies and traditions, including some that aren’t overtly religious. To greater or lesser degrees, it can also be said of all sorts of fiction, from the great classics to fairy tales. I don’t renounce, denounce, or reject any of them. I accept them for what I think them to be and draw all sorts of things from them, without ever feeling the need to “take a stand” on whether or not they are “the truth.”
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