On the savior thing--why would a father sacrifice a son for his other children? In the family I was raised in, my dad would have sacrificed himself,not one of my brothers, or my mom would have done it. My husband or I would give ourselves for our kids.
That,to me, is a good case for the trinity. To sacrifice yourself is one thing, to sacrifice another is a whole nuther thing.
I would say my experience is not unlike yours having been involved in many different churches and seen many differing levels of control and gossip and such.
I would say my outcome is completely different tho and I see it only as a reason that validates God's righteousness and his acts from what I see in men.
Therefore my outcome is certainly far different than yours.
'Therefore my outcome is certainly far different than yours.'
Yes, I am aware that others have made very different choices than I have made. I'm good with that. I am not preaching, or trying to imply that other's choices are not as good as mine. My choice was for me.I was just trying to convey the journey, for this thread.
Abigail: I agree with you if what you are saying is that not every adherent of a particular religion is going to accept everything about that particular belief system. But as far as the religion itself goes, surely you must see a difference in the religions, else why would you decide to study Judaism rather than Shintoism? Don't you make any distinction between the two?
Oakspear: So why are the rich and powerful rich and powerful? Have you come up with any theories, religious or otherwise? How does the Mother Goddess explain this?
quote: In the family I was raised in, my dad would have sacrificed himself,not one of my brothers, or my mom would have done it. My husband or I would give ourselves for our kids.
Good point here Bramble. It is a good point to make for trinitarians. I think the more I have been away from the controlling doctrine of twi, I think more and more about who Jesus was. In my own personal experience, I think God being Jesus makes Him different than the God of Muslims or Buddists. Now, I am not trying to convey "My God is better than your god" kind of thing. I have just done a lot of thinking about this stuff in the past year, and I don't think I will ever not believe in Christianity. But I sure as hell won't ever walk with the closed mind I did while I was in twi.
Oakspear: So why are the rich and powerful rich and powerful? Have you come up with any theories, religious or otherwise? How does the Mother Goddess explain this?
I don't think that a religious answer is necessary. The rich and powerful get that way for a variety of reasons: natural ability, luck, trickery, friends, what have you. Other than inherited wealth, I think that the rich and powerful are focussed on their goal and take advantage of any opportunity to get there.
"But as far as the religion itself goes, surely you must see a difference in the religions, else why would you decide to study Judaism rather than Shintoism? Don't you make any distinction between the two?"
Absolutely, there are differences, Laleo. I'm sorry if I came across too aggressively in making my point. :)-->
I look at this world we live in and the history of it, and it saddens me to see how much hatred, anger, and fear there is regarding religious differences. We kill each other every day over these differences. Yet the truth is, despite the differences there are also so many similarities. So, I guess I tend to think, why focus on those differences which so often bring about fear and/or anger? Why not focus instead on how much we have in common?
So why did I choose Judaism instead of something else? First, even though I am of Jewish heritage, I grew up in a Christian community in a largely Christian society. So initially, it was Christianity I looked to when I sought answers about God. However, eventually I rejected Christianity for a number of reasons, which by and large have already been discussed here. One which has not, I suppose, is that TWI pretty much left a bad taste in my mouth in terms of my own Christianity. This is not to say I reject Christians. It simply means that it no longer is the path which meets my needs and interests.
After leaving TWI, I spent two years or so researching various religions, including Native American and the new age movement. Then finally it dawned on me. I have this heritage I know very little about, so I began to study it.
There is much about Orthodox Judaism I reject and my initial researching was one more of curiosity than of a quest for God. However, eventually I stumbled upon a wealth of information about the reform and reconstructionist movements. I have found a great deal of depth to their teachings as well as a great deal of history I never knew existed. Many of their ethics sit well with me. I find their parables to be rich with beautiful imagery I also enjoy. Additionally, because much of Judaism is about ethics and behavior and not about defining God, there is much freedom to believe what you wish about God. The spectrum is full from those who are full of faith to those who do not believe in the existence of God at all, and all are accepted.
I like the tradition, particularly the weekly lighting of the Shabbat candles. I like the sense of connectedness I receive, knowing that all over the world there are people who are also lighting their candles. I want to pass this heritage, tradition, and sense of connectedness on to my children.
Finally, I find within Judaism the blend of religion, tradition/ritual, and respect for an individual's beliefs and faith, etc. which suits my needs and personality very well at this time in my life.
quote:I have found a great deal of depth to their teachings as well as a great deal of history which I never knew existed. Many of their eithics sit well with me. I find their parables to be rich with beautiful imagery which I also enjoy. Additionally, because much of Judaism is about ethics and behavior and not about defining God, there is much freedom . . .
I can't think of a better endorsement for any religion.
Well, first, I think there is little if no Christ in Christianity...Not that I'd return if things were different, but it did give me a chance to look around.
I am not a buddhist, but if I had to choose one faith I suppose that is the one I'd choose. It is psychologically sound in that, true to its basic tenent, you must be in the present moment accepting reality as it is...not the was we wish it to be, or pray it to be, or believe it to be.... very refreshing from the old way days....
1) God always always loves me. I cannot fathom this. Even when I haven't pleased him, he loves me. Even when I need a rebuke or correction, he loves me. His rebuke or correction is love, if he didnt care, he wouldnt do it, for I think it's difficult for him in his heart to be disappointing to me.
I cannot walk away from this, His love for me is what gives me hope to live.
For me it was a number of things over time and I don't think I can put my finger on the exact event or idea or sequence of thoughts that brought me to the point of saying Christianity wasn't for me. To be honest it isn't really that Christianity isn't for me, just that believing absolutely in a god isn't for me. I think there are many positives to Christianity as there are with many religions as there are in many sciences as there are in driving your automobile. There are also many negative things about everything.
I think perhaps one of the beginning points for me was while sitting thru one of the foundational classes, for the millionth. "The Integrity of the Word" was at the foundation of it all. Without knowing its integrity, we could not go any further. Well, the answer always started with something like, "well let's see what it says about itself." I began to imagine the size of the bookcase I would need to hold all the writings that claimed to be "revelation", "god-breathed", "the will of god", etc... Would my floor joists be able to hold it's weight?
As much as twi wanted to deny the idea of typical religious blind faith, they were stuck with it all us believers were. My problem was, I couldn't base my life on blind faith.
Outside of blind faith I realised that people have experiences that they believe prove thier god's existence. I didn't have that either. Everything that had happened to me that could be constued as "God in action", could also have an alternate explaination. I fell back on SIT for a long time. This was all while I was still in twi. I've (we've) all been thru that discussion at length many times, IMO, my many questions were never answered. (look it up, dear)
Since my departure, lol, I have come to see a number of common human elements as well as commonality in religion. There are also many differences. It would take too much time and space to list these things and couldn't possibly do justice to either group. In short, we like to belong. We like to be right. We like to have definition/classification/answers. I find that these things can be found in everything and in nothing. I have also found that we can be left wanting and longing in everything and in nothing.
So, instead of classifying myself by a religion or by what I think i know, I don't. I just look at the world (it's religions, it's science, and it's fine automobiles) and learn what I can, take what I like, and keep that learnin' I received from the things I don't.
I call myself agnostic because I realise that I don't know much and the things I think I know don't lead to a god and they don't lead to things absolute. So I guess you could say I have classified myself. It is hard not to when trying to converse about these topics.
I am still fascinated by the idea and the belief in gods. So I discuss it with believers and non alike. Progress is slow but I feel the answers are relatively simple. Form these conversations I have found that the Pope would say I am a Christian, regardless of my lack of belief. He would say this based on my life and my actions. Like I said I think there is a lot of good in it, I take that good and apply it without a sense of superiority and without guilt when I don't.
Def, I'm not sure how to answer your question because I am not entirely sure what you are asking me.
In MY Jewish tradition - there would absolutely be room for "Jews for Jesus", Messianic Jews, Christians, Pagans, whatever. I believe we all have our path to walk in this life. My focus is in walking my own path, it is not my place to tell someone else where to walk. Likewise, while it is my desire to expose my children to the Jewish tradition, faith, and ethics, if at some point they chose another path in life I would not have a problem with that.
Within the reconstructionist group, which I am seriously considering joining, there is also room. They will welcome anyone who wants to become a part of the community, whether they wish to convert or not. Their goal is to do what they can to make this world we live in a better place, not convert people. In fact, 1000Names came to services with me last Friday and was very welcomed.
Within other groups the answer will very depending on the movement and the individual community. For example, many orthodox groups would reject my children because their father was not Jewish. Some would likewise reject me because I was once married to someone who is not Jewish or because I am currently with someone who is not Jewish.
So I hope, somewhere in all of that I answered your question.
quote: I find a curious trend in that many Christianity rejecters do so because of their Way experience, which we can most often agree, was not Christian.
Funny how that is, this being an ex-way site and all. --> I kind of expected a statement like that at some point, it usually is implied at some point.
And twi not Christian? That is debatable. I guess you are a "true" Christian?
Just because TWI was not the perfect picture of a loving orginization, does not make our decision to disassociate ourselves with Christianity illegitimate. No more than your decision to run to a more loving accepting christian group.
My reason, as you may have noticed, had little to do with Christianity specifically and more to do with faith in general.
Actually, looking back I don't see anyone saying they "reject" Christianity as a result of thier terrible experiences while in twi. The only reasons i see have to do with general Christian concepts or the concept of the Christian god. Curious trend indeed.
Back in my late teens, Christianity was starting to not maker sense to me; I was exploring Buddhism, Taoism and other paths. It was my involvement with The Way that kept me in Christianity for another twenty-three years. In my subsequent questioning of doctrine, The abuses and error in The Way were the catalyst for questioning, but was not the reason for going in different directions.
As for the label "Christianity Rejectors", I question its accuracy. Most of the posters here have expressed the opinion that there is some good and some truth in Christianity, but have taken other paths. Your label implies a black or white position whereas most posters here have taken a gray approach.
I once asked if the ex-Way atheists on GSC would publicly renounce Jesus Christ, seeing as how they didn't believe in him anymore. Only two did, but even one of those argued about it for a while.
Will any more of the former Christians here do the same? I mean, if you're absolutely certain that Jesus was just some myth, fable, or even an exaggeration of a possibly-real person, there's no point in leaving yourself an "out" just in case you're wrong, is there?
It seems to me that you are trying to put me in a position of enmity against your faith and your God. I feel no such enmity in my life. I'm just not Christian anymore..
I don't worship your God or follow your Holy Scriptures--is that rejecting and renouncing? Or do I have to be dramatic and declare those exact phrases to satisfy you?
I do not look down upon Christians, or consider it a false faith, or consider them the enemy-- though there are times where I am careful to keep my beliefs to myself in order to avoid trouble.
I think all faiths are valid paths--unless they harm and destroy people. This is a common belief among Wiccan/pagans, quite different from what we were taught in TWI, or in my childhood RC church.
Early in this thread, someone used the word 'disconnect.' My leaving the Christian faith had far more to do with a 'disconnect' with Christianity, and the Christian God then some type of angry hate filled tantrum--plus I found something I do connect to, so I'm not agnostic or athiest.
Do you believe Christians should go around denouncing and rejecting other's religions?
You, being such a fan of logic and mathmatics, would know that we could just make a real simple syllogism to show that those that don't believe in a god would also not believe in Jesus as the Christ.
Why you want people to publicly renounce Jesus Christ is beyond me. Accepting JC is a personal matter, so should not accepting, rejecting, whatever. Besides if the "once saved always saved" crowd is right, we don't need an "out", do we?
As I have said many times, I don't believe in a god, but I don't deny the possiblity of one existing. Insert that into your syllogism, or anywhere else you please. :)-->
I will go out on the limb somewhat here, expecting non believers and athiests and agnostics to cut of my limb.
With respect to TWI, take a personal inventory and ask yourself what was it in you that motivated you to join. I aint saying it was all your fault. It just it always was my view that doctrinally they kinda wanted to appeal to the flesh by saying a lot of stuff was ok when it really wasnt.
The other thing is bitterness. Are you folks sure your not just angry at God because he wouldnt do what you thought he oughta? Personally, I kinda think you are. (Dont wack at me to hard I cant say it any nicer.)
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Bramble
On the savior thing--why would a father sacrifice a son for his other children? In the family I was raised in, my dad would have sacrificed himself,not one of my brothers, or my mom would have done it. My husband or I would give ourselves for our kids.
That,to me, is a good case for the trinity. To sacrifice yourself is one thing, to sacrifice another is a whole nuther thing.
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sky4it
Bramble:
I would say my experience is not unlike yours having been involved in many different churches and seen many differing levels of control and gossip and such.
I would say my outcome is completely different tho and I see it only as a reason that validates God's righteousness and his acts from what I see in men.
Therefore my outcome is certainly far different than yours.
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Bramble
'Therefore my outcome is certainly far different than yours.'
Yes, I am aware that others have made very different choices than I have made. I'm good with that. I am not preaching, or trying to imply that other's choices are not as good as mine. My choice was for me.I was just trying to convey the journey, for this thread.
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laleo
Abigail: I agree with you if what you are saying is that not every adherent of a particular religion is going to accept everything about that particular belief system. But as far as the religion itself goes, surely you must see a difference in the religions, else why would you decide to study Judaism rather than Shintoism? Don't you make any distinction between the two?
Oakspear: So why are the rich and powerful rich and powerful? Have you come up with any theories, religious or otherwise? How does the Mother Goddess explain this?
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Nottawayfer
Good point here Bramble. It is a good point to make for trinitarians. I think the more I have been away from the controlling doctrine of twi, I think more and more about who Jesus was. In my own personal experience, I think God being Jesus makes Him different than the God of Muslims or Buddists. Now, I am not trying to convey "My God is better than your god" kind of thing. I have just done a lot of thinking about this stuff in the past year, and I don't think I will ever not believe in Christianity. But I sure as hell won't ever walk with the closed mind I did while I was in twi.
I like hearing what you all have to say. Thanks.
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Oakspear
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Nottawayfer
Do you think they are willing to take more risks than the average Joe to get rich and powerful?
I saw a man on the news not too long ago who came to Vegas from England. He sold his house and bet the whole thing on craps. He won. Lucky dawg.
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Abigail
"But as far as the religion itself goes, surely you must see a difference in the religions, else why would you decide to study Judaism rather than Shintoism? Don't you make any distinction between the two?"
Absolutely, there are differences, Laleo. I'm sorry if I came across too aggressively in making my point.
:)-->
I look at this world we live in and the history of it, and it saddens me to see how much hatred, anger, and fear there is regarding religious differences. We kill each other every day over these differences. Yet the truth is, despite the differences there are also so many similarities. So, I guess I tend to think, why focus on those differences which so often bring about fear and/or anger? Why not focus instead on how much we have in common?
So why did I choose Judaism instead of something else? First, even though I am of Jewish heritage, I grew up in a Christian community in a largely Christian society. So initially, it was Christianity I looked to when I sought answers about God. However, eventually I rejected Christianity for a number of reasons, which by and large have already been discussed here. One which has not, I suppose, is that TWI pretty much left a bad taste in my mouth in terms of my own Christianity. This is not to say I reject Christians. It simply means that it no longer is the path which meets my needs and interests.
After leaving TWI, I spent two years or so researching various religions, including Native American and the new age movement. Then finally it dawned on me. I have this heritage I know very little about, so I began to study it.
There is much about Orthodox Judaism I reject and my initial researching was one more of curiosity than of a quest for God. However, eventually I stumbled upon a wealth of information about the reform and reconstructionist movements. I have found a great deal of depth to their teachings as well as a great deal of history I never knew existed. Many of their ethics sit well with me. I find their parables to be rich with beautiful imagery I also enjoy. Additionally, because much of Judaism is about ethics and behavior and not about defining God, there is much freedom to believe what you wish about God. The spectrum is full from those who are full of faith to those who do not believe in the existence of God at all, and all are accepted.
I like the tradition, particularly the weekly lighting of the Shabbat candles. I like the sense of connectedness I receive, knowing that all over the world there are people who are also lighting their candles. I want to pass this heritage, tradition, and sense of connectedness on to my children.
Finally, I find within Judaism the blend of religion, tradition/ritual, and respect for an individual's beliefs and faith, etc. which suits my needs and personality very well at this time in my life.
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laleo
I can't think of a better endorsement for any religion.
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karmicdebt
Why not Christianity...
Well, first, I think there is little if no Christ in Christianity...Not that I'd return if things were different, but it did give me a chance to look around.
I am not a buddhist, but if I had to choose one faith I suppose that is the one I'd choose. It is psychologically sound in that, true to its basic tenent, you must be in the present moment accepting reality as it is...not the was we wish it to be, or pray it to be, or believe it to be.... very refreshing from the old way days....
thanks for asking...
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sky4it
Here's my biggest reason for being a Christian:
1) God always always loves me. I cannot fathom this. Even when I haven't pleased him, he loves me. Even when I need a rebuke or correction, he loves me. His rebuke or correction is love, if he didnt care, he wouldnt do it, for I think it's difficult for him in his heart to be disappointing to me.
I cannot walk away from this, His love for me is what gives me hope to live.
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lindyhopper
For me it was a number of things over time and I don't think I can put my finger on the exact event or idea or sequence of thoughts that brought me to the point of saying Christianity wasn't for me. To be honest it isn't really that Christianity isn't for me, just that believing absolutely in a god isn't for me. I think there are many positives to Christianity as there are with many religions as there are in many sciences as there are in driving your automobile. There are also many negative things about everything.
I think perhaps one of the beginning points for me was while sitting thru one of the foundational classes, for the millionth. "The Integrity of the Word" was at the foundation of it all. Without knowing its integrity, we could not go any further. Well, the answer always started with something like, "well let's see what it says about itself." I began to imagine the size of the bookcase I would need to hold all the writings that claimed to be "revelation", "god-breathed", "the will of god", etc... Would my floor joists be able to hold it's weight?
As much as twi wanted to deny the idea of typical religious blind faith, they were stuck with it all us believers were. My problem was, I couldn't base my life on blind faith.
Outside of blind faith I realised that people have experiences that they believe prove thier god's existence. I didn't have that either. Everything that had happened to me that could be constued as "God in action", could also have an alternate explaination. I fell back on SIT for a long time. This was all while I was still in twi. I've (we've) all been thru that discussion at length many times, IMO, my many questions were never answered. (look it up, dear)
Since my departure, lol, I have come to see a number of common human elements as well as commonality in religion. There are also many differences. It would take too much time and space to list these things and couldn't possibly do justice to either group. In short, we like to belong. We like to be right. We like to have definition/classification/answers. I find that these things can be found in everything and in nothing. I have also found that we can be left wanting and longing in everything and in nothing.
So, instead of classifying myself by a religion or by what I think i know, I don't. I just look at the world (it's religions, it's science, and it's fine automobiles) and learn what I can, take what I like, and keep that learnin' I received from the things I don't.
I call myself agnostic because I realise that I don't know much and the things I think I know don't lead to a god and they don't lead to things absolute. So I guess you could say I have classified myself. It is hard not to when trying to converse about these topics.
I am still fascinated by the idea and the belief in gods. So I discuss it with believers and non alike. Progress is slow but I feel the answers are relatively simple. Form these conversations I have found that the Pope would say I am a Christian, regardless of my lack of belief. He would say this based on my life and my actions. Like I said I think there is a lot of good in it, I take that good and apply it without a sense of superiority and without guilt when I don't.
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def59
I find a curious trend in that many Christianity rejecters do so because of their Way experience, which we can most often agree, was not Christian.
Has anyone found any solace or peace in organized churches or home groups in their post-TWI days?
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def59
Abigail
In your Jewish tradition is there any room for Jews for Jesus? I ask because I have heard many Jews reject them out of hand.
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Abigail
Def, I'm not sure how to answer your question because I am not entirely sure what you are asking me.
In MY Jewish tradition - there would absolutely be room for "Jews for Jesus", Messianic Jews, Christians, Pagans, whatever. I believe we all have our path to walk in this life. My focus is in walking my own path, it is not my place to tell someone else where to walk. Likewise, while it is my desire to expose my children to the Jewish tradition, faith, and ethics, if at some point they chose another path in life I would not have a problem with that.
Within the reconstructionist group, which I am seriously considering joining, there is also room. They will welcome anyone who wants to become a part of the community, whether they wish to convert or not. Their goal is to do what they can to make this world we live in a better place, not convert people. In fact, 1000Names came to services with me last Friday and was very welcomed.
Within other groups the answer will very depending on the movement and the individual community. For example, many orthodox groups would reject my children because their father was not Jewish. Some would likewise reject me because I was once married to someone who is not Jewish or because I am currently with someone who is not Jewish.
So I hope, somewhere in all of that I answered your question.
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lindyhopper
Funny how that is, this being an ex-way site and all.
--> I kind of expected a statement like that at some point, it usually is implied at some point.
And twi not Christian? That is debatable. I guess you are a "true" Christian?
Just because TWI was not the perfect picture of a loving orginization, does not make our decision to disassociate ourselves with Christianity illegitimate. No more than your decision to run to a more loving accepting christian group.
My reason, as you may have noticed, had little to do with Christianity specifically and more to do with faith in general.
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lindyhopper
Actually, looking back I don't see anyone saying they "reject" Christianity as a result of thier terrible experiences while in twi. The only reasons i see have to do with general Christian concepts or the concept of the Christian god. Curious trend indeed.
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Oakspear
Coupla points:
Back in my late teens, Christianity was starting to not maker sense to me; I was exploring Buddhism, Taoism and other paths. It was my involvement with The Way that kept me in Christianity for another twenty-three years. In my subsequent questioning of doctrine, The abuses and error in The Way were the catalyst for questioning, but was not the reason for going in different directions.
As for the label "Christianity Rejectors", I question its accuracy. Most of the posters here have expressed the opinion that there is some good and some truth in Christianity, but have taken other paths. Your label implies a black or white position whereas most posters here have taken a gray approach.
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Zixar
I once asked if the ex-Way atheists on GSC would publicly renounce Jesus Christ, seeing as how they didn't believe in him anymore. Only two did, but even one of those argued about it for a while.
Will any more of the former Christians here do the same? I mean, if you're absolutely certain that Jesus was just some myth, fable, or even an exaggeration of a possibly-real person, there's no point in leaving yourself an "out" just in case you're wrong, is there?
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Bramble
Renounce Jesus? Reject Christianity?
It seems to me that you are trying to put me in a position of enmity against your faith and your God. I feel no such enmity in my life. I'm just not Christian anymore..
I don't worship your God or follow your Holy Scriptures--is that rejecting and renouncing? Or do I have to be dramatic and declare those exact phrases to satisfy you?
I do not look down upon Christians, or consider it a false faith, or consider them the enemy-- though there are times where I am careful to keep my beliefs to myself in order to avoid trouble.
I think all faiths are valid paths--unless they harm and destroy people. This is a common belief among Wiccan/pagans, quite different from what we were taught in TWI, or in my childhood RC church.
Early in this thread, someone used the word 'disconnect.' My leaving the Christian faith had far more to do with a 'disconnect' with Christianity, and the Christian God then some type of angry hate filled tantrum--plus I found something I do connect to, so I'm not agnostic or athiest.
Do you believe Christians should go around denouncing and rejecting other's religions?
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lindyhopper
Your a character, Zix.
You, being such a fan of logic and mathmatics, would know that we could just make a real simple syllogism to show that those that don't believe in a god would also not believe in Jesus as the Christ.
Why you want people to publicly renounce Jesus Christ is beyond me. Accepting JC is a personal matter, so should not accepting, rejecting, whatever. Besides if the "once saved always saved" crowd is right, we don't need an "out", do we?
As I have said many times, I don't believe in a god, but I don't deny the possiblity of one existing. Insert that into your syllogism, or anywhere else you please.
:)-->
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sky4it
I will go out on the limb somewhat here, expecting non believers and athiests and agnostics to cut of my limb.
With respect to TWI, take a personal inventory and ask yourself what was it in you that motivated you to join. I aint saying it was all your fault. It just it always was my view that doctrinally they kinda wanted to appeal to the flesh by saying a lot of stuff was ok when it really wasnt.
The other thing is bitterness. Are you folks sure your not just angry at God because he wouldnt do what you thought he oughta? Personally, I kinda think you are. (Dont wack at me to hard I cant say it any nicer.)
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def59
Abigail
thanks you did great.
Tell 1000 i said hi and I lost the no.
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Oakspear
That's the point Zix...lack of certainty.
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