What exactly was it that happened on the Day of Pentecost?
We see references to baptism in Acts 1:5; 2:38&41.
What was the significance of baptism? To understand that, we have to consider what exactly WAS the "Old Testament"? and what eactly IS the "New"?
Let's start in Jeremiah,
quote: 31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
Jeremiah 31:31-34
A side note of acknowledgement: I first read many of the ideas I will put forward here in the works of James D.G. Dunn, particularly in his "The Partings of the Ways".
When we say "Old Testament", we usually think of the whole book, from Genesis to Malachi, but the truth is, the "old covenant" is a very narrow part of the big book. The "Old Testament" is fully presented in Deuteronomy 5-28, and is summarized in Deuteronomy 29.
quote: 1 These are the words of the covenant, which the Lord commanded Moses to make with the children of Israel in the land of Moab, beside the covenant which he made with them in Horeb.
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9 Keep therefore the words of this covenant, and do them, that ye may prosper in all that ye do.
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12 That thou shouldest enter into covenant with the Lord thy God, and into his oath, which the Lord thy God maketh with thee this day:
13 That he may establish thee to day for a people unto himself, and that he may be unto thee a God...
The law, by itself, was NOT the covenant. The covenant was God's promise to establish a people unto Himself, and to be their God. The covenant set up the status of Israel as the chosen people. The law was a means for Israel to maintain and manifest their status as the people of Yahweh.
Notice Deuteronomy 29:13, "That he may establish thee to day for a people unto himself, and that he may be unto thee a God" and Jeremiah 31:33, "and [ I ] will be their God, and they shall be my people." This is covenant terminology.
The Old Testament was flawed, and God knew it,
quote: 22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord God; I do not this for your sakes [for the sake of your works], O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen whither ye went.
23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the Lord, saith the Lord God, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.
24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 And a new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.
Ezekiel 36:22-28
"And ye shall be my people, and I will be your God." This passage from Ezekiel uses covenant terminology. It refers to the New Testament promised in Jeremiah 31 and elsewhere. Notice that the New Testament will not be a testament of works ("I do this not for your sakes, O house of Israel") but a testament of grace (but for mine holy name's sake").
Notice verse 25 refers to sprinkling clean water, verse 26 to a new heart, and verse 27 to God putting His spirit within. Verse 26 parallels Jeremiah 31:33.
Although I'm not going to quote it extensively here, Isaiah 43:16-44:5 agrees with and reinforces the passage from Ezekiel 36. I will pull up a few verses from Isaiah,
quote: 43:25 I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins.
44:3 For I will pour water upon him that is thirsty, and floods upon the dry ground: I will pour my spirit upon thy seed, and my blessing upon thy offspring:
And again in Ezekiel 11,
quote: 19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and give them a heart of flesh:
20 That they may walk in my statutes, and keep my ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God."
The first century Judaeans weren't just expecting a messiah. They were also expecting a New Testament that would be characterized by grace, new hearts, and an outpouring of holy spirit.
That's all the time I have to post now. Next stirring episode, what does baptism have to do with all this?
Love,
Steve
(I've got some typos in here. I'll have to clean them up later, so thanks for your patience)
When a person born Gentile wants to convert to Judaism, there are a number of things he has to do. One of those things is the "mikveh", or ritual submersion. "Mikveh" was also practiced in the first century. The ritual bath was a signal part of the process when a person was initiated into Judaism. Some modern scholars call this process "conversion/initiation".
Which raises the interesting question, weren't the people John was baptizing ALREADY Jews? What were THEY being converted/initiated into?
The tradition of a "remnant" of Israel that continued to believe in spite of the nation's backsliding began in I Kings 19,
quote: 14 And he [Elijah] said, I have been very jealous for the Lord God of hosts: because the children of Israel have forsaken thy covenant, thrown down thy altars, and slain thy prophets with the sword; and I, even I only, am left; and they seek my life, to take it away.
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18 Yet I [God] have left me seven thousand in Israel, all the knees which have not bowed unto Baal, and every mouth which hath not kissed him.
I Kings 19:14&18
When Jesus was walking around in Galilee, Judaism (sometimes called "Second Temple Judaism") was diverse. It was not a monolithic religion. It was split into a number of sects (or "denominations" as we might think of them). The major sects we are aware of were the Sadducees, the Essenes, the Pharisees, the Herodians and the Zealots.
The Sadducees were the religious party in control of the Temple under the political authority of the Romans. They were on top of the heap (since the whole nation of Judaea existed to serve the Temple), and were pretty happy with the status quo.
Neither the Essenes nor the Pharisees were happy. They thought the Romans were there because the Judaeans were not keeping up their end of the Old Testament. They wanted God to step in and remove the Romans. In order to bring that about, they wanted to purify Judaea, each in their own way.
The Essenes believed the Sadducees had corrupted the Temple service, so they set up a sort of "Temple Priesthood in Exhile", standing by to restore things when God brought them back into the Temple.
The Pharisees believed Judaea needed to be purified by extending observance of the Temple service laws to the WHOLE NATION of Judaea.
Herod was the political ruler over the territory that included Judaea. He was an Idumean (Edomite), not a descendant of Israel. His power depended on the good will of the Roman emperor. The Herodians were Herod's political clients. They also were happy with the status quo.
The Zealots were far from happy with things the way they were. They engaged in provocative acts and assasinations, both political and religious. They would have been suicide bombers if there had been man-portable bombs back in those days.
Some of these groups may have considered themselves to be the believing remnant of Israel. We know the Essenes did, and they used mikveh as a part of the conversion/initiation process FROM other forms of Judaism INTO what they conceived as the believing remnant.
I believe John's baptism was part of the conversion/initiation process into the GENUINE remnant of Israel. I think that's the reason why Jesus had to be baptized. Not to wash away HIS sins. He didn't have any. But to identify himself with the genuine believing remnant.
How does baptism into the believing remnant of Israel tie in to the events of Pentecost?
One of the first things Peter did on that day was quote from Joel,
quote: 16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my spirit upon all flesh...
18...I will pour out in those days of my spirit...
...
21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Acts 2:16,17,18,21
Now let's look at the tail end of the passage from Joel,
quote: And it shall come to pass that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord God hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call.
Joel 2:32
Salvation was in the remnant of Israel that Day of Pentecost, and Jews were being baptized into it.
The observers said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "What shall we do?" (Acts 2:37)
Peter said, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." (Acts 2:38)
"Repent and be baptized... for the remission of sins..."
The remission of sins God made available through Jesus Christ on the Day of Pentecost was a provision of the New Testament Jesus mediated on the cross.
quote: ...I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sins no more...
Jeremiah 31:34b
Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
Ezekiel 36:25
I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins.
Isaiah 43:25
All of these quotes regarding forgiveness are passages from the "Old Testament" expounding on the New.
The quote from Jeremiah, isn't, but the quotes from Ezekiel and Isaiah are specifically associated with outpourings of holy spirit (Ezekiel 36:27 and Isaiah 44:3).
On the Day of Pentecost, the forgiveness part of the New Testament became available. That New Testament had been promised to the believing remnant of Israel. Jews were being baptized into that remnant. And the gift of holy spirit was poured out to confirm these things.
After Pentecost, there was another sect or religious party in Second Temple Judaism, the "followers of the way", who later came to be known as "Christians".
On the Day of Pentecost, the forgiveness part of the New Testament first became available; the New Testament that had been promised to the believing remnant of Israel, and mediated by the death of Jesus on his cross. On the Day of Pentecost, Jews were being baptized into that remnant, and the gift of holy spirit was poured out to confirm these things.
Before we return to what Wierwille's scheme of "administrations" says about Pentecost, let's make sure we have the whole story.
Luke/Acts says:
quote: "I [Jesus] send the promise of my Father upon you:" Luke 24:49
"until ye be endued with power from on high" Luke 24:49
"wait for the promise of the Father," Acts 1:4
"ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost" Acts 1:5
"ye shall receive power after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you" Acts 1:8
"they were all filled with the Holy Ghost" Acts 2:4
"this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel" Acts 2:16
"saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit on all flesh" Acts 2:17
"I will pour out in those days of my Spirit" Acts 2:18
"whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved" Acts 2:21
Jesus "received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost" and "shed forth this, which ye now see and hear" Acts 2:33
Peter said, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." Acts 2:38
"they that gladly received his word were baptized" Acts 2:41
What feature of Wierwille's dispensationalism is conspicuous by its ABSENCE!?!
Wierwille taught that Pentecost is the "birthday" of the Church. He taught that the "new birth" was not available until the Day of Pentecost. He taught that people first got "born again" on Pentecost.
Yet the Word of God NEVER uses "birth" or even "conception" terminology in relation to Pentecost.
There's a whole section in the PFAL book about the "New Birth", yet the phrase never occurs in the Bible. Wierwille had NO scriptural foundation for teaching that ANYTHING or ANYBODY was "born" on the Day of Pentecost.
Biblically, Pentecost could not have been the start of a secret "administration of grace".
"On the Day of Pentecost, the forgiveness part of the New Testament first became available"
Forgiveness of sin has always been available.
Luke 5:24a But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power upon earth to forgive sins,
Even further back then that.
Mark 1:4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
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Matthew 26:26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body. 27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; 28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. 29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom. 30 And when they had sung an hymn, they went out into the mount of Olives.
When his blood was shed is when remission of sins came to pass, if you want to pick a time.
Hebrews 9:8The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: 9Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; 10Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation. 11But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; 12Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us. 13For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: 14How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
15And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. 16For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. 17For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth. 18Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood. 19For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people, 20Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you. 21Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry. 22And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
23It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: 25Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; 26For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 28So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
Chapter 10
1For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. 2For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins. 3But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year. 4For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. 5Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: 6In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
7Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. 8Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; 9Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. 10By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; 13From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. 14For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. 15Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, 16This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; 17And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. 18Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
19Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, 20By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; 21And having an high priest over the house of God; 22Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. 23Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)--> 24And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: 25Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching. 26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? 30For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. 31It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. 32But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions; 33Partly, whilst ye were made a gazingstock both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, whilst ye became companions of them that were so used. 34For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance. 35Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward. 36For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. 37For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry. 38Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. 39But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
Here we see (along with a lot of other good info) it talks about being not conscience of sin. Which can happen as long as we do not sin. But if we sin then there is a "a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries" that's being conscience of sin.
quote: "On the Day of Pentecost, the forgiveness part of the New Testament first became available"
Forgiveness of sins has always been available.
I didn't write, "forgiveness first became available". I wrote ," the forgiveness part of the New Testament first became available."
A special forgiveness of sins was part of the promised New Testament,
quote: "...I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sins no more..." Jeremiah 31:34b
"Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all you idols I will cleanse you." Ezekiel 36:25
"I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins." Isaiah 43:25
You yourself, Vertical Limit, quoted Hebrews 9:15, "And for this cause he [Jesus Christ] is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance."
What do you suppose that verse is talking about? Jesus Christ mediated, by his death on the cross, the New Testament; that they which are called ("For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call" Acts 2:39, Pentecost) might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
The New Testament was NOT mediated before Christ's death on the cross,
quote: "For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth." Hebrews 9:17
"...without shedding of blood is no remission." Hebrews 9:22b
The forgiveness part of the New Testament became available AFTER the cricifixion, and was embodied in baptism with holy spirit, first available on the Day of Pentecost.
You quoted a lengthy passage from Hebrews, but you highlighted only five words, "as pertaining to the conscience.The rest of the passage, 67 lines worth (that's LINES, not just words), you characterize as "a lot of other good info".
That "lot of other good info" confirms the things I've said about the forgiveness we've received being the result of the New Testament, and NOT the result of some secret "administration of grace".
I have some VERY SERIOUS problems with Wierwille's teachings about "sin consciousness" (by the way, it was sin "consciousness", not sin "conscience"; two different words, two different meanings).
Wierwille was a monumental sinner. Not just an "Awww shucks, how can you blame HIM. EVERYBODY sins. Any red-blooded American boy would have done the same" sinner. He used the respect he gained by impersonating a man of God to rape teenage girls and keep it secret. MONUMENTAL!
Wierwille rationalized his sin by teaching that, under the "administration of grace", sin is only sin if you think it's sin. If I don't think raping teenage girls and keeping it secret is a sin, then, VOILA! I have not sinned. Otherwise, I would be committing the sin of sin consciousness.
Go back and read that passage from Hebrews without putting Wierwille's spin on it, Vertical Limit. There's a lot of good info there :-D
The forgiveness part of the New Testament became available AFTER the cricifixion, and was embodied in baptism with holy spirit, first available on the Day of Pentecost.
This part-"embodied in baptism with holy spirit"
The old testament people also benefited from Jesus' death.
If you sin wilfully and do not do as 1 John says to do then you are walking in darkness. And you can't just keep sinning the same sins and just keep doing 1 John from the heart. The heart will become hardened against God and what he says.
I also think of Romans 7 and 8. But not the way TWI used it.
Oh and BTW the spelling error is because that's how it's spelled in my bible on the computer. I copied and pasted it in the post. In my comment on it too.
On Pentecost Peter said, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."
Acts goes on to say, "Then they that gladly received his word were baptized..."
I say the events of Pentecost were partial fulfillment of the New Testament, not the beginning of some wholely new thing, and that those events came about when they did because Jesus had mediated the New Testament by his death on the cross.
Are you saying something else happened?
You wrote, "The old testament people also benefited from Jesus' death." What do you mean by "old testament people"? The people who were under the covenant of Deuteronomy 5-28? People who lived during the time period covered by Genesis through Malachi? The "vikings and apaches" who lived when the law was in effect for Israel?
Jesus' death will possibly benefit ANY of those people in the resurrection.
I also don't understand what you meant, Vertical, when you quoted Hebrews 9:8-10:39, emphasized the words "as pertaining to the conscience", and then wrote, "...it talks about being not conscience of sin".
If you want me to understand, you're going to have to spell it out in a little more detail.
I thought those verses spelled it out pretty good. But maybe not. I gotta go to work here shortly, so I may not answer soon. I'll answer when I know how to, and have the time to do it.
What does it say about us when Jesus died and was ressurected (sp)? Didn't we die with him? weren't we raised with him? It's a done deal.
All that's left is our journey through it.
What happened on Pentecost is like Joel said, like you said. An out pouring of the Spirit big time from people like you and me. Those 12 didn't just stumble into it. Jesus led them by the hand untill they were ready.
Vertical Limit - You wrote, "We aren't in any hurry are we?"
Please forgive my impatience.
We spent decades marinating our minds in some of this stuff. It's no wonder we might need a little while to soak, getting the stains out :-)
I'm honestly intrigued by what you meant when you posted the passage from Hebrews, and while your meaning may have seemed obvious to you, I just didn't get it. I'd like to hear you articulate your thinking more fully.
I appreciate the contributions you make to the discourse here, and I'm thankful for the feedback you give me.
"Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."
Be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins-there is the forgiveness-then ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
I believe that the 12 were born again before Pentecost, they had already received the gift of Holy Spirit-new testament style-perhaps when Jesus breathed in and said receive the holy Spirit.
John 20:21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. 22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost
Forgiveness of sin is a complete remission of sins as was John's baptism. Receiving the Holy Spirit is part of the new testament promise also. So that we can live without remembering sin that has held us back from walking after the Spirit.
So what happened on Pentecost came from within those 12 men, from the Spirit that was already there. The greatest outpouring of Spirit since Moses received the law next to Paul of whom God brought to pass special miracles by his hands, Pauls hands, from within Paul. Next to Noah who receved detailed plans for the ark.
Now it's off to work again for me, day shift today.
Vertical Limit - Thanks for the expansion of thought in your last post. I think I see where you're coming from now.
You consider that John's baptism was effective in dealing out forgiveness, and that the gift of holy spirit was given to the twelve before the Day of Pentecost.
You wrote, "So that we can live without remembering sin that has held us back from walking after the Spirit." That shows me that I was jumping to a conclusion when I confused what you were writing with some of the things Wierwille taught about "sin conciousness".
Thanks for clearing those things up. While I may view some of your positions as arguable, there's only one thing you bring up that I think is pertinent to my take on Wierwille's Wacky Dispensationalism.
You wrote, "I believe that the 12 were born again before Pentecost, they had already received the gift of Holy Spirit..."
I take it from what you wrote there that you would also disagree with Wierwille's statements to the effect that Pentecost is the "birthday" of the Church, and that the "new birth" was not available till the the Day of Pentecost.
Can I take it that you would also disagree with Wierwille when he taught that Pentecost was the beginning of some previously secret "administration of grace"?
Love,
Steve
(For fans of semi-formal discourse, the process Vertical Limit and I have been performing over our past few posts is called "probing". Probing consists of asking questions and giving feedback, not for the sake of persuasion, but to clarify for each other what our positions are. Probing helps keep us from talking past each other.)
"I take it from what you wrote there that you would also disagree with Wierwille's statements to the effect that Pentecost is the "birthday" of the Church, and that the "new birth" was not available till the the Day of Pentecost.
Can I take it that you would also disagree with Wierwille when he taught that Pentecost was the beginning of some previously secret "administration of grace"?"
Correct....
posting from work....I better do some more of it....
By the way, Vertical Limit asked three questions I said I would answer after he answered mine.
"What is time to God?"
Time is one aspect of God's creation. God invented it. I believe God designed man to experience time as the instantaneous NOW, with a memorable past and an unknown (to man) future, so that man could exercise freedom to choose. From God's point of view, forgiveness through Jesus Christ's death on the cross has "always" been available. From man's point of view, that forgiveness did not become available until it was actually accomplished within time. Prior to Christ's death on the cross, and his resurrection, all man could do (including Jesus) was to trust God's promise that it was going to happen.
"Wouldn't The bride of Christ be spotless?"
I'm not exactly sure where you're going with this one, Vertical. Wierwille taught that we have to regard the "Church" as distinct from the called of Israel in the Gospels because the "Church" is the Body while Christ's followers in the Gospels are the Bride.
I believe Ephesians 5:30-32 indicates that the Bride becomes the Body through the one-flesh relation of Genesis 2:24.
I don't believe in the spurious distinction dictated by Wierwille's scheme of "administrations". So, yes, indeed, I do believe Christ is cleaning us up.
"Did Jesus die for all or just for those after his death?"
Jesus DID die for all, but the complete outworking of his sacrifice will not be manifest in time until he executes the judgment.
The salvation we have received will not be complete before the resurrection/gathering together. Even John says so,
quote: 1 Behold what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world ["kosmos"] knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
I John 3:1-3
I hope these answers help you see where I'm coming from, Vertical!
"I certainly do believe in Grace though... agreed?"
Agreed!
My difference with Wierwille is this; I believe the grace of forgiveness and salvation we have received is the "bringing to pass" of promises God made to Israel,
quote: "Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord God; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake..." Ezekiel 36:22
"I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake and will not remember thy sins." Isaiah 43:25
"Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:" Jeremiah 31:31
"But this shall be the covenant that I make with the house of Israel..." Jeremiah 31:33
Paul agrees,
quote:" ...Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants..." Romans 9:4
"That at that time ye [believers who came to Christ from Gentile backgrounds] were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise..." Ephesians 2:12
The mystery that the Lord revealed first to Paul was not some secret "period of time of grace", but rather,
quote: "That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:" Ephesians 3:6
That's why Paul could say to the Gentile believers,
quote: "Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow-citizens with the saints, and of the household of God;" Ephesians 2:19
The grace we have received rests on the rock-solid promises of God's Word, not on the hot air of Wierwille's "administrations"!
Here's a little more on forgiveness then receiving the Holy Spirit.
Matthew 3:1In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, 2And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. 3For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
Repent to prepare the way of the Lord.
Where? In the mind. Repent and receive that remission of sins and then receive the Holy Spirit.
John came to prepare the way for the Lord. So that being born again could happen.
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Steve Lortz
Vertical Limit - Before we're done with this, we'll see exactly what the Pharisees were up to.
Love,
Steve
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Steve Lortz
Sooo....
What exactly was it that happened on the Day of Pentecost?
We see references to baptism in Acts 1:5; 2:38&41.
What was the significance of baptism? To understand that, we have to consider what exactly WAS the "Old Testament"? and what eactly IS the "New"?
Let's start in Jeremiah,
A side note of acknowledgement: I first read many of the ideas I will put forward here in the works of James D.G. Dunn, particularly in his "The Partings of the Ways".
When we say "Old Testament", we usually think of the whole book, from Genesis to Malachi, but the truth is, the "old covenant" is a very narrow part of the big book. The "Old Testament" is fully presented in Deuteronomy 5-28, and is summarized in Deuteronomy 29.
The law, by itself, was NOT the covenant. The covenant was God's promise to establish a people unto Himself, and to be their God. The covenant set up the status of Israel as the chosen people. The law was a means for Israel to maintain and manifest their status as the people of Yahweh.
Notice Deuteronomy 29:13, "That he may establish thee to day for a people unto himself, and that he may be unto thee a God" and Jeremiah 31:33, "and [ I ] will be their God, and they shall be my people." This is covenant terminology.
The Old Testament was flawed, and God knew it,
"And ye shall be my people, and I will be your God." This passage from Ezekiel uses covenant terminology. It refers to the New Testament promised in Jeremiah 31 and elsewhere. Notice that the New Testament will not be a testament of works ("I do this not for your sakes, O house of Israel") but a testament of grace (but for mine holy name's sake").
Notice verse 25 refers to sprinkling clean water, verse 26 to a new heart, and verse 27 to God putting His spirit within. Verse 26 parallels Jeremiah 31:33.
Although I'm not going to quote it extensively here, Isaiah 43:16-44:5 agrees with and reinforces the passage from Ezekiel 36. I will pull up a few verses from Isaiah,
And again in Ezekiel 11,
The first century Judaeans weren't just expecting a messiah. They were also expecting a New Testament that would be characterized by grace, new hearts, and an outpouring of holy spirit.
That's all the time I have to post now. Next stirring episode, what does baptism have to do with all this?
Love,
Steve
(I've got some typos in here. I'll have to clean them up later, so thanks for your patience)
edited to clean up typos - Steve
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
Whew Haaa whoahh
Classic Essence A Doctrinal Thread.
Excellent!
~~~ this is where i walk along the oceans edge and ~~~ listen ~~~
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Steve Lortz
Why baptism?
When a person born Gentile wants to convert to Judaism, there are a number of things he has to do. One of those things is the "mikveh", or ritual submersion. "Mikveh" was also practiced in the first century. The ritual bath was a signal part of the process when a person was initiated into Judaism. Some modern scholars call this process "conversion/initiation".
Which raises the interesting question, weren't the people John was baptizing ALREADY Jews? What were THEY being converted/initiated into?
The tradition of a "remnant" of Israel that continued to believe in spite of the nation's backsliding began in I Kings 19,
When Jesus was walking around in Galilee, Judaism (sometimes called "Second Temple Judaism") was diverse. It was not a monolithic religion. It was split into a number of sects (or "denominations" as we might think of them). The major sects we are aware of were the Sadducees, the Essenes, the Pharisees, the Herodians and the Zealots.
The Sadducees were the religious party in control of the Temple under the political authority of the Romans. They were on top of the heap (since the whole nation of Judaea existed to serve the Temple), and were pretty happy with the status quo.
Neither the Essenes nor the Pharisees were happy. They thought the Romans were there because the Judaeans were not keeping up their end of the Old Testament. They wanted God to step in and remove the Romans. In order to bring that about, they wanted to purify Judaea, each in their own way.
The Essenes believed the Sadducees had corrupted the Temple service, so they set up a sort of "Temple Priesthood in Exhile", standing by to restore things when God brought them back into the Temple.
The Pharisees believed Judaea needed to be purified by extending observance of the Temple service laws to the WHOLE NATION of Judaea.
Herod was the political ruler over the territory that included Judaea. He was an Idumean (Edomite), not a descendant of Israel. His power depended on the good will of the Roman emperor. The Herodians were Herod's political clients. They also were happy with the status quo.
The Zealots were far from happy with things the way they were. They engaged in provocative acts and assasinations, both political and religious. They would have been suicide bombers if there had been man-portable bombs back in those days.
Some of these groups may have considered themselves to be the believing remnant of Israel. We know the Essenes did, and they used mikveh as a part of the conversion/initiation process FROM other forms of Judaism INTO what they conceived as the believing remnant.
I believe John's baptism was part of the conversion/initiation process into the GENUINE remnant of Israel. I think that's the reason why Jesus had to be baptized. Not to wash away HIS sins. He didn't have any. But to identify himself with the genuine believing remnant.
How does baptism into the believing remnant of Israel tie in to the events of Pentecost?
One of the first things Peter did on that day was quote from Joel,
Now let's look at the tail end of the passage from Joel,
Salvation was in the remnant of Israel that Day of Pentecost, and Jews were being baptized into it.
The observers said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "What shall we do?" (Acts 2:37)
Peter said, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." (Acts 2:38)
"Repent and be baptized... for the remission of sins..."
The remission of sins God made available through Jesus Christ on the Day of Pentecost was a provision of the New Testament Jesus mediated on the cross.
All of these quotes regarding forgiveness are passages from the "Old Testament" expounding on the New.
The quote from Jeremiah, isn't, but the quotes from Ezekiel and Isaiah are specifically associated with outpourings of holy spirit (Ezekiel 36:27 and Isaiah 44:3).
On the Day of Pentecost, the forgiveness part of the New Testament became available. That New Testament had been promised to the believing remnant of Israel. Jews were being baptized into that remnant. And the gift of holy spirit was poured out to confirm these things.
After Pentecost, there was another sect or religious party in Second Temple Judaism, the "followers of the way", who later came to be known as "Christians".
Love,
Steve
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Steve Lortz
On the Day of Pentecost, the forgiveness part of the New Testament first became available; the New Testament that had been promised to the believing remnant of Israel, and mediated by the death of Jesus on his cross. On the Day of Pentecost, Jews were being baptized into that remnant, and the gift of holy spirit was poured out to confirm these things.
Before we return to what Wierwille's scheme of "administrations" says about Pentecost, let's make sure we have the whole story.
Luke/Acts says:
What feature of Wierwille's dispensationalism is conspicuous by its ABSENCE!?!
Wierwille taught that Pentecost is the "birthday" of the Church. He taught that the "new birth" was not available until the Day of Pentecost. He taught that people first got "born again" on Pentecost.
Yet the Word of God NEVER uses "birth" or even "conception" terminology in relation to Pentecost.
There's a whole section in the PFAL book about the "New Birth", yet the phrase never occurs in the Bible. Wierwille had NO scriptural foundation for teaching that ANYTHING or ANYBODY was "born" on the Day of Pentecost.
Biblically, Pentecost could not have been the start of a secret "administration of grace".
Love,
Steve
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Vertical Limit
Steve L.-
"On the Day of Pentecost, the forgiveness part of the New Testament first became available"
Forgiveness of sin has always been available.
Luke 5:24a But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power upon earth to forgive sins,
Even further back then that.
Mark 1:4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
--
Matthew 26:26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body. 27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; 28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. 29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom. 30 And when they had sung an hymn, they went out into the mount of Olives.
When his blood was shed is when remission of sins came to pass, if you want to pick a time.
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Vertical Limit
Hebrews 9:8The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: 9Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; 10Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation. 11But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; 12Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us. 13For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: 14How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
15And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. 16For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. 17For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth. 18Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood. 19For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people, 20Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you. 21Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry. 22And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
23It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: 25Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; 26For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 28So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
Chapter 10
1For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. 2For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins. 3But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year. 4For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. 5Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: 6In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
7Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. 8Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; 9Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. 10By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; 13From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. 14For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. 15Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, 16This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; 17And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. 18Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
19Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, 20By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; 21And having an high priest over the house of God; 22Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. 23Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised
;)--> 24And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: 25Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching. 26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? 30For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. 31It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. 32But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions; 33Partly, whilst ye were made a gazingstock both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, whilst ye became companions of them that were so used. 34For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance. 35Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward. 36For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. 37For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry. 38Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. 39But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
Here we see (along with a lot of other good info) it talks about being not conscience of sin. Which can happen as long as we do not sin. But if we sin then there is a "a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries" that's being conscience of sin.
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Steve Lortz
Vertical Limit - You wrote,
I didn't write, "forgiveness first became available". I wrote ," the forgiveness part of the New Testament first became available."
A special forgiveness of sins was part of the promised New Testament,
You yourself, Vertical Limit, quoted Hebrews 9:15, "And for this cause he [Jesus Christ] is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance."
What do you suppose that verse is talking about? Jesus Christ mediated, by his death on the cross, the New Testament; that they which are called ("For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call" Acts 2:39, Pentecost) might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
The New Testament was NOT mediated before Christ's death on the cross,
The forgiveness part of the New Testament became available AFTER the cricifixion, and was embodied in baptism with holy spirit, first available on the Day of Pentecost.
You quoted a lengthy passage from Hebrews, but you highlighted only five words, "as pertaining to the conscience.The rest of the passage, 67 lines worth (that's LINES, not just words), you characterize as "a lot of other good info".
That "lot of other good info" confirms the things I've said about the forgiveness we've received being the result of the New Testament, and NOT the result of some secret "administration of grace".
I have some VERY SERIOUS problems with Wierwille's teachings about "sin consciousness" (by the way, it was sin "consciousness", not sin "conscience"; two different words, two different meanings).
Wierwille was a monumental sinner. Not just an "Awww shucks, how can you blame HIM. EVERYBODY sins. Any red-blooded American boy would have done the same" sinner. He used the respect he gained by impersonating a man of God to rape teenage girls and keep it secret. MONUMENTAL!
Wierwille rationalized his sin by teaching that, under the "administration of grace", sin is only sin if you think it's sin. If I don't think raping teenage girls and keeping it secret is a sin, then, VOILA! I have not sinned. Otherwise, I would be committing the sin of sin consciousness.
Go back and read that passage from Hebrews without putting Wierwille's spin on it, Vertical Limit. There's a lot of good info there :-D
Love,
Steve
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Vertical Limit
I didn't put wierwielle's spin on it.
I agree with this-
A special forgiveness of sins was part of the promised New Testament,
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"...I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sins no more..." Jeremiah 31:34b
"Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all you idols I will cleanse you." Ezekiel 36:25
"I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins." Isaiah 43:25
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I do not agree with this-
The forgiveness part of the New Testament became available AFTER the cricifixion, and was embodied in baptism with holy spirit, first available on the Day of Pentecost.
This part-"embodied in baptism with holy spirit"
The old testament people also benefited from Jesus' death.
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Vertical Limit
let me add this
If you sin wilfully and do not do as 1 John says to do then you are walking in darkness. And you can't just keep sinning the same sins and just keep doing 1 John from the heart. The heart will become hardened against God and what he says.
I also think of Romans 7 and 8. But not the way TWI used it.
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Vertical Limit
Oh and BTW the spelling error is because that's how it's spelled in my bible on the computer. I copied and pasted it in the post. In my comment on it too.
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Steve Lortz
I'm not sure what you're trying to say, Vertical.
On Pentecost Peter said, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."
Acts goes on to say, "Then they that gladly received his word were baptized..."
I say the events of Pentecost were partial fulfillment of the New Testament, not the beginning of some wholely new thing, and that those events came about when they did because Jesus had mediated the New Testament by his death on the cross.
Are you saying something else happened?
You wrote, "The old testament people also benefited from Jesus' death." What do you mean by "old testament people"? The people who were under the covenant of Deuteronomy 5-28? People who lived during the time period covered by Genesis through Malachi? The "vikings and apaches" who lived when the law was in effect for Israel?
Jesus' death will possibly benefit ANY of those people in the resurrection.
Love,
Steve
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Vertical Limit
Here's some questions for you Steve...
What is Time to God?
Wouldn't the bride of Christ be spotless?
Did Jesus die for all or just for those after his death?
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I also don't understand what you meant, Vertical, when you quoted Hebrews 9:8-10:39, emphasized the words "as pertaining to the conscience", and then wrote, "...it talks about being not conscience of sin".
If you want me to understand, you're going to have to spell it out in a little more detail.
Love,
Steve
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Steve Lortz
Answer my question first, Vertical, are you saying something else happened on Pentecost? If so, what?
Discoursing with the highest of regards and friendliest of feelings,
Love,Steve
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Vertical Limit
I thought those verses spelled it out pretty good. But maybe not. I gotta go to work here shortly, so I may not answer soon. I'll answer when I know how to, and have the time to do it.
We aren't in any hurry are we?
Peace!
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Vertical Limit
What does it say about us when Jesus died and was ressurected (sp)? Didn't we die with him? weren't we raised with him? It's a done deal.
All that's left is our journey through it.
What happened on Pentecost is like Joel said, like you said. An out pouring of the Spirit big time from people like you and me. Those 12 didn't just stumble into it. Jesus led them by the hand untill they were ready.
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Steve Lortz
Vertical Limit - You wrote, "We aren't in any hurry are we?"
Please forgive my impatience.
We spent decades marinating our minds in some of this stuff. It's no wonder we might need a little while to soak, getting the stains out :-)
I'm honestly intrigued by what you meant when you posted the passage from Hebrews, and while your meaning may have seemed obvious to you, I just didn't get it. I'd like to hear you articulate your thinking more fully.
I appreciate the contributions you make to the discourse here, and I'm thankful for the feedback you give me.
Love,
Steve
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Vertical Limit
"Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."
Be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins-there is the forgiveness-then ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
I believe that the 12 were born again before Pentecost, they had already received the gift of Holy Spirit-new testament style-perhaps when Jesus breathed in and said receive the holy Spirit.
John 20:21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. 22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost
Forgiveness of sin is a complete remission of sins as was John's baptism. Receiving the Holy Spirit is part of the new testament promise also. So that we can live without remembering sin that has held us back from walking after the Spirit.
So what happened on Pentecost came from within those 12 men, from the Spirit that was already there. The greatest outpouring of Spirit since Moses received the law next to Paul of whom God brought to pass special miracles by his hands, Pauls hands, from within Paul. Next to Noah who receved detailed plans for the ark.
Now it's off to work again for me, day shift today.
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Vertical Limit - Thanks for the expansion of thought in your last post. I think I see where you're coming from now.
You consider that John's baptism was effective in dealing out forgiveness, and that the gift of holy spirit was given to the twelve before the Day of Pentecost.
You wrote, "So that we can live without remembering sin that has held us back from walking after the Spirit." That shows me that I was jumping to a conclusion when I confused what you were writing with some of the things Wierwille taught about "sin conciousness".
Thanks for clearing those things up. While I may view some of your positions as arguable, there's only one thing you bring up that I think is pertinent to my take on Wierwille's Wacky Dispensationalism.
You wrote, "I believe that the 12 were born again before Pentecost, they had already received the gift of Holy Spirit..."
I take it from what you wrote there that you would also disagree with Wierwille's statements to the effect that Pentecost is the "birthday" of the Church, and that the "new birth" was not available till the the Day of Pentecost.
Can I take it that you would also disagree with Wierwille when he taught that Pentecost was the beginning of some previously secret "administration of grace"?
Love,
Steve
(For fans of semi-formal discourse, the process Vertical Limit and I have been performing over our past few posts is called "probing". Probing consists of asking questions and giving feedback, not for the sake of persuasion, but to clarify for each other what our positions are. Probing helps keep us from talking past each other.)
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Vertical Limit
"I take it from what you wrote there that you would also disagree with Wierwille's statements to the effect that Pentecost is the "birthday" of the Church, and that the "new birth" was not available till the the Day of Pentecost.
Can I take it that you would also disagree with Wierwille when he taught that Pentecost was the beginning of some previously secret "administration of grace"?"
Correct....
posting from work....I better do some more of it....
I certainly do believe in Grace though...agreed?
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By the way, Vertical Limit asked three questions I said I would answer after he answered mine.
"What is time to God?"
Time is one aspect of God's creation. God invented it. I believe God designed man to experience time as the instantaneous NOW, with a memorable past and an unknown (to man) future, so that man could exercise freedom to choose. From God's point of view, forgiveness through Jesus Christ's death on the cross has "always" been available. From man's point of view, that forgiveness did not become available until it was actually accomplished within time. Prior to Christ's death on the cross, and his resurrection, all man could do (including Jesus) was to trust God's promise that it was going to happen.
"Wouldn't The bride of Christ be spotless?"
I'm not exactly sure where you're going with this one, Vertical. Wierwille taught that we have to regard the "Church" as distinct from the called of Israel in the Gospels because the "Church" is the Body while Christ's followers in the Gospels are the Bride.
I believe Ephesians 5:30-32 indicates that the Bride becomes the Body through the one-flesh relation of Genesis 2:24.
I don't believe in the spurious distinction dictated by Wierwille's scheme of "administrations". So, yes, indeed, I do believe Christ is cleaning us up.
"Did Jesus die for all or just for those after his death?"
Jesus DID die for all, but the complete outworking of his sacrifice will not be manifest in time until he executes the judgment.
The salvation we have received will not be complete before the resurrection/gathering together. Even John says so,
I hope these answers help you see where I'm coming from, Vertical!
Love,
Steve
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Steve Lortz
I just saw your most recent post, Vertical.
"I certainly do believe in Grace though... agreed?"
Agreed!
My difference with Wierwille is this; I believe the grace of forgiveness and salvation we have received is the "bringing to pass" of promises God made to Israel,
Paul agrees,
The mystery that the Lord revealed first to Paul was not some secret "period of time of grace", but rather,
That's why Paul could say to the Gentile believers,
The grace we have received rests on the rock-solid promises of God's Word, not on the hot air of Wierwille's "administrations"!
Love,
Steve
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Vertical Limit
Here's a little more on forgiveness then receiving the Holy Spirit.
Matthew 3:1In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, 2And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. 3For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
Repent to prepare the way of the Lord.
Where? In the mind. Repent and receive that remission of sins and then receive the Holy Spirit.
John came to prepare the way for the Lord. So that being born again could happen.
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