First, a word to the community at large on this thread. The correct acronym for "Biblefan Dave" is "BD", NOT "BFD". To apply the vulgar meaning of the acromyn "BFD" to our fellow posters and their views is pointless, demeaning and inflammatory, and does NOT advance the cause of open discourse or the truth.
Biblefan Dave - You wrote, "When I was 18 years, I told God that things had to get better or I would kill myself on my 19th birthday. On my 19th birthday, I was sitting in the second week of PFAL."
I have no doubt you received wonderful deliverance around the time you first took PFAL, Dave. Many people did. But let's take a look at the Word to see how that deliverance was accomplished,
quote: And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son."
John 14:13
The credit for the deliverance that any of us have received belongs to God the Father through His Son, Jesus Christ.
Weirwille preached many things that were true. When people believed those things, they called on God in the name of Jesus Christ and got deliverance.
But right after that is where things started to go wrong. We were encouraged by the TWI culture (particularly rehearsing testimonials to present at Public Explanations) to give God the credit... NOT through the Son, but through what?... PFAL and VPW.
What is PFAL? It is a man-made thing. What is it when we give credit to God through man-made things? That's right, it's idolatry.
In the encouragement we received to laud PFAL, we were receiving instruction in the practice of idolatry.
Wierwille preached many things that were true, but he also taught many things that were patently false, right there in PFAL. One of those falsehoods was his scheme of "administrations". Scriptural salvation is resurrection life in the age to come.
Wierwille's dispensationalisn, which IS wacky when you stop and actually think about it, wrecks our understanding of Scriptural salvation by obliviating our understanding of references in God's Word to "this age" and "the age to come".
No ill intent is made from these precincts. Thrash my lazy fingers! I get you Steve! BiblefanDave, you are and ever shall be. But if you want to call me S, that's kosh'.
"To apply the vulgar meaning of the acromyn "BFD" to our fellow posters and their views is pointless, demeaning and inflammatory, and does NOT advance the cause of open discourse or the truth."
Ok Steve L, just poken a little fun, no ill intent meant.
I didn't think you had intended any offense, Vertical Limit, but we can often cause offense when we don't really mean to. I get to see that nearly everyday, teaching part time in a high school. We have to constanly remind the boys to keep their words and behavior on the most cordial plane possible, otherwise it can descend into mayhem very quickly.
I appreciate the thoughtful contributions you make, Vertical Limit. I also respect Biblefan Dave's understanding of his own experience as he comes to terms with the genuine abuse we suffered at the hands of VPW.
You can believe what you want. But, Steve is absolutely right when he said we were coached in the culture to say the class saved us, the word Wierwille taught us.
We gain understanding of Scripture only through the Spirit. We can all read and gain knowledge.
Oak is right when he says we disagree often, but we respect each other. The same goes (respect, I hope) with Raf, Sudo and Grizzy, even Galen, to name a few.
I can respect your beliefs and disagree with your conclusions. How about giving some of that back?
A point of clarity: it's not the different conclusions that people come up with. If people don't want to believe in administrations, fine. It's a free country.
If people want to believe that every grilled cheese sandwich will eventually produce an image of Christ, I have absolutely no problem with that.
But there is a definite illogic to many of these conclusion. Many of these conclusions stem from personal attacks. First of all, there is never any indication whatsoever that Doctor Wierwille did not do the work necessry to earn a Doctorate. And there are many good schools that lack "creditation", because they simply don't have the political muscle to obtain the accreditation. Anyone could label such an institution as a "noted degree mill", especially if one's agenda is to try and discredit someone's character. Until someone can prove to me that VPW did not actually do the work to earn the doctorate, I consider him "Doctor". There are plenty of well-known "doctors" who matriculated at non-accredited schools.
Slander and character assassination do no one any good. These personal attacks by a few posters are simply their means by trying to overcompensate for feelings of inferiority by trying to tear down someone else to make themselves feel better. As far as coping skills go, absolutely of one of the worst one can pick.
An absolutely ridiculous question was asked: Well if VPW was wrong on this one doctrine, what makes you think he wasn't wrong on some other things? We have something call the Bible. We compare what someone says to the Bible. Is it completely illogical to approach the issue by assuming one erroneous doctrine negates all the rest. That is preposterous.
I guarantee you that if any of us underwent the scrutiny that's being done on VPW's life, any of us could be portrayed as horrible human beings as well. If our words were twisted, distorted, or taken completely out of context, we could be portrayed in just as negative a light.
Many people have to engage in personal attacks because they make no sense on doctrinal issues. They can't deal with things on a doctrine level, so they must engage in personal attacks. Sometimes, that's the only way they know how to react is to lash back in anger. The attitude is that people are mad at TWI, therefore everything about TWI must be wrong. Again, completely, totally, and absolutely illogical. Being mad at a bank teller for not cashing a check does not necessarily mean that the bank is an evil and heartless corporate monster.
When I was in TWI, I never heard anyone whatsoever tell me that VPW was a perfect human. In fact, in PFAL, he said he was not perfect. Yet, people are mad at VPW, a man who has been deceased for more than 19 years. They are mad at him because he was not perfect. Yes, he did teach a few erroneous doctrines. Yes, he did engage in a few sinful activities. Yes, he did not properly credit others when he used their research and writings in his research and writings. Yet, who among us is perfect? Are people mad because he turned out not to be perfect? It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Who among us is without sin? Do we not want forgiveness for the times when we have gone astray? Then, why in the world would we ever allow this anger to rule our worlds to the extent that 19 years after the man died, we still feel anger and bitterness.
If you ever talked to anyone involved in 12 step programs, the people who are successful in those programs have an "attitude of gratitude". There are many people who would have never had an appreciation for God, our lord and savior Jesus Christ, and God's Word if it were not for TWI. Half-full or half-empty, your choice. Someone asked the question: Was sitting in the PFAL on my 19th birthday a good thing? Again, an absolutely ridiculous question. Of course, anything that propels us on a course toward knowing God and his son, Jesus Christ would be a good thing.
But, then, some people stil have to engage in these personal attacks to make themselves feel better. Well, in just about any group, one can find good people and one can find not so good people. A person's character shows in whether they focus on doctrinal issues or engage in personal attacks and character assassination.
Doctrinal debates are somewhat profitable, but it is God who opens the eyes of understanding.
How did Peter know that Jesus Had the Word of Life? What did John mean when he said that God has given us an understanding?
Hebrews8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. 7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. 8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: 9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: 11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
"for all shall know me from the least to the greatest"
1 John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
John 14:25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you. 26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. 27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.
Jeremiah31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
There's a little bible for ya concerning the new testament.
Let's try a completely different approach. Make your cases without referring to Wierwille as a person (you may refer to what he wrote, but not to his motives, behavior, education, etc).
Let's see if the framework of administrations really holds up to scrutiny, with or without Wierwille.
Great start from VL in the post immediately preceding this one.
The attitude of "Well, I'm just exactly completely right" has a name.
It's called "waybrain".
Those suffering from it usually don't see it that way - until later.
You see, here again is gross exaggeration. If someone uses sound, fundamental, and logical processes to arrive at a conclusion how can that be considered "waybrain". To focus that characterization or insult solely toward TWI is called "tunnel vision".
Did you ever meet a medical doctor who positively concluded that a physical symptom was the result of a particular virus or infection or defect? There are many medical doctors that scientifically determine that a symptom stems directly from a particular affliction. Is that "waybrain"? Of course, not. Many mathematicians are firmly and absolutely convinced of certain formulas or calculations? Does that mean they suffer from "waybrain".
Is there anyone who took either PFAL or LCM's class who can't recognize that the rules that applied to Adam and Eve after they were kicked out of the garden were different than before? That's simple logic. If simple logic = "waybrain", then I am all for it.
I work in the IT field. There are numerous times when a particular software malfunction is always the result of a particular problem. If one were to ask why a network has no ip address, and the network cables and jetdirect boxes are properly connected, the problem would be that the port needs to be reset. Is being convinced that the ports needs to be reset a result of "waybrain". Again, "tunnel vision". Way too much focus on "way" affects one's abilities to made logical conclusions.
I would say "waybrain" is being too fixated on trying to attribute all problems in life to TWI. I suppose some people who decide that the Palestinian problem in the Middle East is a result of something VPW did or something that LCM did.
As with any organization, one can find good things and one can find bad things. Believe it or not, the Roman Catholic Church has problems. There are issues with priests molesting little boys. There are also a lot of very kind people who are Catholic. Believe or not, there are variations of Baptist Churches. You have the Free Will Baptists, the Southern Baptists, the Northern Baptists, etc. Guess what, they don't all agree on everything. That's why they split into different factions.
Some people consider Amway a cult. Why? Because the successful people in Amway are committed, driven people. Some people deem commitment to be a bad thing. Those people are wrong. The Bible clearly shows commitment as a good things, depending upon what one is committed to.
Yeah, at one point, shortly after leaving TWI, commitment seemed to me to be a bad thing. When I went to that charismatic church, I actually had a good time for most of my time with that church. Yet, when the minister, CJ Mahaney would mention the word "movement", my skin would crawl. At that time, I didn't want to be involved in any movement or program. That was back in '90-'92. Then, I realized that commitment wasn't a bad thing. "Commit thy ways unto the Lord".
Being convinced of a logical conclusion is not a bad thing. To consider people who are firm in their beliefs to have "waybrain" is a gross exaggeration and a vague generalization. Is it being fixated on TWI. And I know people who were in TWI who weren't as firm in their beliefs as others in TWI were. It is never a good idea to try and label people and put them in this box where one presumes that everyone within a certain group or organization all act the same way or think the same way.
Catholics don't think all the same way, even if they all seem to know the right phrases to respond with to the priest. Some Baptists play cards and dance, and others think those things are wrong. If one took the time when they were in TWI to check out the varieties of individuals that were there, one would have realized that there was a great diversity of personalities there. This generalization of "waybrain" is not substantiated by the facts.
Lets go over the "rules" you start and then we'll know what the ground rules are.
The reason some accuse you of WayBrain is that your attitude seems to be if twi has a doctrine or belief that you agree with then its truth and anyone who says otherwise is wrong, hates vpw or is illogical.
Okay, no talking about Wierwille, no personal attacks. Sounds good. No dismissing what people post as "lack of understanding" without supporting verses either
Can you, speaking as someone who believes that administrations are biblical, address Steve Lortz's position? Or perhaps my questions about possible additional "administrations"?
Biblefan Dave - You wrote, "It is never a good idea to try and label people and put them in this box where one presumes that everyone within a certain group or organization all act the same way or think the same way."
If you really believe that, then why do you presume my conclusions about "administrations" are based on disappointment or hatred of Wierwille?
You also wrote, "...We discovered that TWI had made errors, and had refused to correct them. Some people were upset about the error, and became angry, bitter, and resentful. They rejected everything they were taught. They developed an agenda to try and disprove everything VPW and LCM and other leaders taught. They were adamant about trying to show how wrong TWI teachings and teachers were. Thus, the agenda caused people to reject things that were true because the intent and goal was to prove them wrong. This overcompensation or overreaction caused people to err in the wrong direction."
Do you presume that I opened up my concordance to find the uses of "oikonomia" and "diatheke" because I was bitter, angry and resentful?
No.
I did it because I wanted to reassure myself about the things we had been taught regarding the pretribulation gathering together of the Church. Guess what. The things I found actually written in the Word of God do not support the things Wierwille taught in PFAL.
Do you presume I'm driven by an agenda to prove everything I learned in PFAL wrong?
If so, then why do I still speak in tongues?
"Thus, the agenda caused people to reject things that were true because the intent and goal was to prove them wrong."
You hector some of us here for judging the validity of Wierwille's teachings based on his perceived (or possibly misperceived) intents. Why do you then judge the validity of what I write concerning "administrations" based on your misperception of MY intents?
I don't reject Wierwille's scheme of "administrations" because my intent and goal is to prove it wrong. I reject it because it IS NOT TRUE. If we apply the principles of PFAL the way they were PREACHED (NOT the way they were actually TAUGHT, and I can give you citations it you want them), then we find that there is NO SCRIPTURAL FOUNDATION for believing that the Word of God ever uses "oikonomia" to indicate a "period of time". Wierwille built his scheme of "administrations" on sand.
Lets go over the "rules" you start and then we'll know what the ground rules are.
The reason some accuse you of WayBrain is that your attitude seems to be if twi has a doctrine or belief that you agree with then its truth and anyone who says otherwise is wrong, hates vpw or is illogical.
*** Wrong again, Def.
Personal attacks show anger and rage. Anger and rage usually cloud one's judgment. Look at how many murders were committed by people in fits of rage where that people would not normally ever consider killing someone. Have you heard of road rage? I detect a lot of forum rage. Personal attacks are a poor coping skill for dealing with feelings of inadequacy or inferiority. Personal attacks are a means of avoiding dealing with the real issues.
The reason anyone would accuse anyone of "waybrain" is because they are fixated upon TWI. Their ire, anger, rage, bitterness, resentment, and animosity is directed toward TWI, which leads them to make wild accusations, vague generalizations, unfair labels and characterizations, and gross exaggerations without any basis for such.
These people don't realize how much God has forgiven them, so they can't forgive others. They lack any sense of thankfulness for the good things that have happened in their lives. Instead, spew venomous words with personal attacks and insult.
If anyone scrutinized your life or anyone else's life the ridiculous manner in which they have scrutinized VPW's life, you or they would also be portrayed as some horrible monster. Why blow things way (no pun intended) out of proportion?
VPW did good and VPW did bad. VPW taught some truth and VPW taught some error. I can find no evidence whatsoever that his intentions were of any evil nature. There is no evidence whatsoever that he was solely in it for the money, as some have presumed. There is no evidence he cheated his way into getting a doctoral degree, as some have tried to make people believe. There is no evidence he intentionally taught the erroneous doctrine of the law of believing. Yes, it was error, but no one has shown he did it deliberately to cause any pain or suffering in anyone's life. Plagarism is bad, but that doesn't make what was plagarized wrong.
It is clearly a false assumption to assume everything about TWI was bad. There is no evidence to support such an opinion. Therefore, if something TWI leaders (TWI never did anything of itself, as it is simply a legal entity)taught was true, then it was true. If it's true the source is God, no matter who the messenger was, whether a TWI leader, a Baptist minister, or a Jewish rabbi. People in this forum have fixated on the messenger instead of focusing on the source. Why the fixation? People haven't properly dealt with whatsoever mental anguish suffered due to the downfall of TWI. I was angry for awhile but I dealt with it. Some posters here haven't.
How can there be intelligent discussion on a subject when any terminology used by people in TWI is dismissed simply because people in TWI used such terminology. If what TWI leaders taught was true, then why not incorporate it in discussion. Why not make the focus on the Bible rather than how those cruel, evil TWI leaders treated me? I got over it, so can others.
Also, why is "waybrain" only used in a negative way. Just about everyone I knew in TWI loved God, loved Jesus Christ, and loved the truths of God's Word. While it may not have applied to every single person involved, I believe that that one could characterize people in TWI as good Christian people who loved God and did their best to live according to God's Word.
People in TWI were generally very giving. People gave of their time and their money, generally because they wanted to. Many people witnessed to others because of the great things God had done in their lives. People ran fellowships usually because they wanted to. People ran or assisted with classes because they wanted to. People offered rides to others because they wanted to. So, as most people in TWI were giving people, I would say "waybrain" represents an attitude of giving and service.
When people only focus on the negative, it certainly does not demonstrate a grateful, thankful attitude.
If there is an "administration (oikonomia) of grace", how could it not represent a period of time? If administer is to oversee, then there would be an oversight for the length of time grace is available. If administer means to give out or dispense or allot, then that giving out of grace is not a one-time occurrence but would happen continuously as long as born again believers are present on earth until such a TIME when grace would no longer be administered, i.e, the gathering together (oops, 40 lashes to me for using "Way terminology").
When someone oversees, they generally oversee for a period of time. The security guard has set working hours. The project manager devotes many hours to managing the project and projecting the needs as far as manhours, materials, procedures, processes, etc. to complete the project. The management takes place over time. As nothing man makes ever turns out perfectly, there are always points at which revisions must take place along the way. This takes time.
When someone dispenses or doles out something that is continuously given out, then there is a commitment of time. The pharmacist dispenses medications to people who are prescribed those particular medications. The pharmacy maintains a pharmacist usually for as long as the pharmacy is in business, thus denoting a period of time. Supply room personnel generally are long term personnel because the needs of a company demand people continuously present at designated times to distribute supplies. This connotes (wait, is connote a Way word?) time.
In otherwords, how can administration be void of time?
You see, if someone presents things devoid (another 40 lashes for using a TWI word) of character assassination, insults, personal attacks, and blatant negatively, I am all for considering what they say. I may not always accept it as true, but will always consider it.
Wierwille built his scheme of "administrations" on sand.
*** BTW, why do people constantly credit VPW with "administrations" when the concept or doctrine or whatever you want to cal it was actually something VPW researched from Bullinger. How come people aren't screaming bloody hell about all the evil Bullinger did?
Bullinger called it dispensations. VPW called it administrations.
"Dispensation" is from the Greek word "OIKONOMIA". It is translated in the KJV as either "dispensation" (four times), "stewardship" (thrice), and once as the noun in the phrase "godly edifying" (1st Tim. 1:4). A related word is "OIKONOMOS", translated "steward", "chamberlain" or "governor". From http://www.geocities.com/asterisktom/oikonomia.html. It still seems to me that stewardship involves time. Most governors govern for more than a day or two. As for New Jersey governors, well, I'd better not get into that.
I apologize if I misjudged your intents. Maybe I reacted more angrily than I should have. But I am simply amazed that people who have had an exposure to God and to God's Word could ever develop some of the viciousness and hatred that if obvious from some here. I don't care if people have different conclusions, viewpoints, opinions, ideas, or the like. But when I see the constant personal attacks, character assassinations, insults, and general lack of gratitude that's behind some of these opinions, one certainly has to look for the underlying agenda that motivates these things.
You know what, I did not like John Kerry for President. I simply did not feel he could handle foreign policy in our current circumstances of terrorism and other hostilities. I wanted someone to find some provable "dirt" on him that would substantiate my preferences. It never happened. In the end, I simply liked Bush more. There were the Swift Boat people, but they never really proved their case. As much as I would have liked to believe the negative about him, the negatives I heard were not substantiated. It came down to a simple preference. Yet, there were plenty of negatives floating around about Kerry, but I don't like to buy into rumors.
I haven't been in TWI since '87. I really don't count a few months in '89 when some WOW ran a fellowship near me, as I had already left TWI in my mind and I felt it harder to relate to things they said and did at that time. I left voluntarily in '87. In '89, 2 years after I left, I was asked if I was 100% committed to the "ministry". I responded by asking if the "ministry" would be 100% committed to teaching accurate knowledge, treating people correctly, and correcting the errors and problems that had crept in. I was told I was no longer welcome at any Way function, which was no big deal since I had already left.
So, I have no bandwagon to climb onto and no special reason to come to TWI's defence. I am not interested in TWI, I am interested in truth. But I am eternally grateful for the things I did learn in TWI. Not interested now, thankful for then.
"Oak is right when he says we disagree often, but we respect each other. The same goes (respect, I hope) with Raf, Sudo and Grizzy, even Galen, to name a few."
Really EVEN 'Galen'?
Wow, no not him.
:-)
And here I was hoping that this particular discussion could go right on without mention of me.
Personally I do see that Our Heavenly Father does treat different peoples differently. To me, when I see Him acting one way in one era, and then acting oppositely in a different era; it must be due to different X---X.
Whether those differences happened in an hour, or gradually over a decade. Some people's knew the G-d of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob to have been a fierce mean vengefull and jealous G-d.
In the New Testament, we see Our Creator as our Father. A loving benevolent Dad, to those who worship Him.
Whether we wish to call these eras: dispensations, or administrations, or eras, or whatever. Was there 6, or 10, or 20? I dont care.
It does make for good reading though.
"I can respect your beliefs and disagree with your conclusions. How about giving some of that back?"
Hebrews8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. 7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. 8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: 9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: 11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
"for all shall know me from the least to the greatest"
1 John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
John 14:25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you. 26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. 27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.
Jeremiah31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
I would like to see someone here actually make a case for TWI's version of dispensationalsm.
Why not start with the so-called grace administration/dispensation. Use the scriptures and do an exegesis/expostion to show that there is in fact a biblical "grace administration", what it is precisely, and how it affects us.
Saying so-and-so got it right and I believe it -or grandstanding and claiming by fiat that the opposing view is "illogical" - just won't cust the mustard. Make a solid case for it.
I posted a little on Ephesians 3 but Dave and the others that support dispensatinalism chose not to address my commentary. Hmmm ????
I suppose that I am ready to do a real discussion on this topic of dispensationalism. But bring your bible and your brain your willingness to do some critical thinking because Logical fallacies, like strawman arguments, circular reasoning, word salads and ad hominen attacks will be quickly disposed of.
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Steve Lortz
First, a word to the community at large on this thread. The correct acronym for "Biblefan Dave" is "BD", NOT "BFD". To apply the vulgar meaning of the acromyn "BFD" to our fellow posters and their views is pointless, demeaning and inflammatory, and does NOT advance the cause of open discourse or the truth.
Biblefan Dave - You wrote, "When I was 18 years, I told God that things had to get better or I would kill myself on my 19th birthday. On my 19th birthday, I was sitting in the second week of PFAL."
I have no doubt you received wonderful deliverance around the time you first took PFAL, Dave. Many people did. But let's take a look at the Word to see how that deliverance was accomplished,
The credit for the deliverance that any of us have received belongs to God the Father through His Son, Jesus Christ.
Weirwille preached many things that were true. When people believed those things, they called on God in the name of Jesus Christ and got deliverance.
But right after that is where things started to go wrong. We were encouraged by the TWI culture (particularly rehearsing testimonials to present at Public Explanations) to give God the credit... NOT through the Son, but through what?... PFAL and VPW.
What is PFAL? It is a man-made thing. What is it when we give credit to God through man-made things? That's right, it's idolatry.
In the encouragement we received to laud PFAL, we were receiving instruction in the practice of idolatry.
Wierwille preached many things that were true, but he also taught many things that were patently false, right there in PFAL. One of those falsehoods was his scheme of "administrations". Scriptural salvation is resurrection life in the age to come.
Wierwille's dispensationalisn, which IS wacky when you stop and actually think about it, wrecks our understanding of Scriptural salvation by obliviating our understanding of references in God's Word to "this age" and "the age to come".
Love,
Steve
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socks
? I thought BFD was short for BiblefanDave...?
No ill intent is made from these precincts. Thrash my lazy fingers! I get you Steve! BiblefanDave, you are and ever shall be. But if you want to call me S, that's kosh'.
It's Friday, a day filled with promise. : )
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Vertical Limit
"To apply the vulgar meaning of the acromyn "BFD" to our fellow posters and their views is pointless, demeaning and inflammatory, and does NOT advance the cause of open discourse or the truth."
Ok Steve L, just poken a little fun, no ill intent meant.
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Steve Lortz
I didn't think you had intended any offense, Vertical Limit, but we can often cause offense when we don't really mean to. I get to see that nearly everyday, teaching part time in a high school. We have to constanly remind the boys to keep their words and behavior on the most cordial plane possible, otherwise it can descend into mayhem very quickly.
I appreciate the thoughtful contributions you make, Vertical Limit. I also respect Biblefan Dave's understanding of his own experience as he comes to terms with the genuine abuse we suffered at the hands of VPW.
Love,
Steve
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socks
Aaah, High School Steve! (not Steve!) As good a reminder as any of how weirdly wacky life can be.
Nothing more to dispense from here. But I love Friday's. Administrationally speaking, they're a real hoot!
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def59
Dave
You can believe what you want. But, Steve is absolutely right when he said we were coached in the culture to say the class saved us, the word Wierwille taught us.
We gain understanding of Scripture only through the Spirit. We can all read and gain knowledge.
Oak is right when he says we disagree often, but we respect each other. The same goes (respect, I hope) with Raf, Sudo and Grizzy, even Galen, to name a few.
I can respect your beliefs and disagree with your conclusions. How about giving some of that back?
I c
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Steve!
The attitude of "Well, I'm just exactly completely right" has a name.
It's called "waybrain".
Those suffering from it usually don't see it that way - until later.
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Biblefan Dave
A point of clarity: it's not the different conclusions that people come up with. If people don't want to believe in administrations, fine. It's a free country.
If people want to believe that every grilled cheese sandwich will eventually produce an image of Christ, I have absolutely no problem with that.
But there is a definite illogic to many of these conclusion. Many of these conclusions stem from personal attacks. First of all, there is never any indication whatsoever that Doctor Wierwille did not do the work necessry to earn a Doctorate. And there are many good schools that lack "creditation", because they simply don't have the political muscle to obtain the accreditation. Anyone could label such an institution as a "noted degree mill", especially if one's agenda is to try and discredit someone's character. Until someone can prove to me that VPW did not actually do the work to earn the doctorate, I consider him "Doctor". There are plenty of well-known "doctors" who matriculated at non-accredited schools.
Slander and character assassination do no one any good. These personal attacks by a few posters are simply their means by trying to overcompensate for feelings of inferiority by trying to tear down someone else to make themselves feel better. As far as coping skills go, absolutely of one of the worst one can pick.
An absolutely ridiculous question was asked: Well if VPW was wrong on this one doctrine, what makes you think he wasn't wrong on some other things? We have something call the Bible. We compare what someone says to the Bible. Is it completely illogical to approach the issue by assuming one erroneous doctrine negates all the rest. That is preposterous.
I guarantee you that if any of us underwent the scrutiny that's being done on VPW's life, any of us could be portrayed as horrible human beings as well. If our words were twisted, distorted, or taken completely out of context, we could be portrayed in just as negative a light.
Many people have to engage in personal attacks because they make no sense on doctrinal issues. They can't deal with things on a doctrine level, so they must engage in personal attacks. Sometimes, that's the only way they know how to react is to lash back in anger. The attitude is that people are mad at TWI, therefore everything about TWI must be wrong. Again, completely, totally, and absolutely illogical. Being mad at a bank teller for not cashing a check does not necessarily mean that the bank is an evil and heartless corporate monster.
When I was in TWI, I never heard anyone whatsoever tell me that VPW was a perfect human. In fact, in PFAL, he said he was not perfect. Yet, people are mad at VPW, a man who has been deceased for more than 19 years. They are mad at him because he was not perfect. Yes, he did teach a few erroneous doctrines. Yes, he did engage in a few sinful activities. Yes, he did not properly credit others when he used their research and writings in his research and writings. Yet, who among us is perfect? Are people mad because he turned out not to be perfect? It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Who among us is without sin? Do we not want forgiveness for the times when we have gone astray? Then, why in the world would we ever allow this anger to rule our worlds to the extent that 19 years after the man died, we still feel anger and bitterness.
If you ever talked to anyone involved in 12 step programs, the people who are successful in those programs have an "attitude of gratitude". There are many people who would have never had an appreciation for God, our lord and savior Jesus Christ, and God's Word if it were not for TWI. Half-full or half-empty, your choice. Someone asked the question: Was sitting in the PFAL on my 19th birthday a good thing? Again, an absolutely ridiculous question. Of course, anything that propels us on a course toward knowing God and his son, Jesus Christ would be a good thing.
But, then, some people stil have to engage in these personal attacks to make themselves feel better. Well, in just about any group, one can find good people and one can find not so good people. A person's character shows in whether they focus on doctrinal issues or engage in personal attacks and character assassination.
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Vertical Limit
Doctrinal debates are somewhat profitable, but it is God who opens the eyes of understanding.
How did Peter know that Jesus Had the Word of Life? What did John mean when he said that God has given us an understanding?
Hebrews8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. 7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. 8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: 9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: 11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
"for all shall know me from the least to the greatest"
1 John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
John 14:25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you. 26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. 27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.
Jeremiah31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
There's a little bible for ya concerning the new testament.
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Raf
Dave, and everyone else:
Let's try a completely different approach. Make your cases without referring to Wierwille as a person (you may refer to what he wrote, but not to his motives, behavior, education, etc).
Let's see if the framework of administrations really holds up to scrutiny, with or without Wierwille.
Great start from VL in the post immediately preceding this one.
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Biblefan Dave
You see, here again is gross exaggeration. If someone uses sound, fundamental, and logical processes to arrive at a conclusion how can that be considered "waybrain". To focus that characterization or insult solely toward TWI is called "tunnel vision".
Did you ever meet a medical doctor who positively concluded that a physical symptom was the result of a particular virus or infection or defect? There are many medical doctors that scientifically determine that a symptom stems directly from a particular affliction. Is that "waybrain"? Of course, not. Many mathematicians are firmly and absolutely convinced of certain formulas or calculations? Does that mean they suffer from "waybrain".
Is there anyone who took either PFAL or LCM's class who can't recognize that the rules that applied to Adam and Eve after they were kicked out of the garden were different than before? That's simple logic. If simple logic = "waybrain", then I am all for it.
I work in the IT field. There are numerous times when a particular software malfunction is always the result of a particular problem. If one were to ask why a network has no ip address, and the network cables and jetdirect boxes are properly connected, the problem would be that the port needs to be reset. Is being convinced that the ports needs to be reset a result of "waybrain". Again, "tunnel vision". Way too much focus on "way" affects one's abilities to made logical conclusions.
I would say "waybrain" is being too fixated on trying to attribute all problems in life to TWI. I suppose some people who decide that the Palestinian problem in the Middle East is a result of something VPW did or something that LCM did.
As with any organization, one can find good things and one can find bad things. Believe it or not, the Roman Catholic Church has problems. There are issues with priests molesting little boys. There are also a lot of very kind people who are Catholic. Believe or not, there are variations of Baptist Churches. You have the Free Will Baptists, the Southern Baptists, the Northern Baptists, etc. Guess what, they don't all agree on everything. That's why they split into different factions.
Some people consider Amway a cult. Why? Because the successful people in Amway are committed, driven people. Some people deem commitment to be a bad thing. Those people are wrong. The Bible clearly shows commitment as a good things, depending upon what one is committed to.
Yeah, at one point, shortly after leaving TWI, commitment seemed to me to be a bad thing. When I went to that charismatic church, I actually had a good time for most of my time with that church. Yet, when the minister, CJ Mahaney would mention the word "movement", my skin would crawl. At that time, I didn't want to be involved in any movement or program. That was back in '90-'92. Then, I realized that commitment wasn't a bad thing. "Commit thy ways unto the Lord".
Being convinced of a logical conclusion is not a bad thing. To consider people who are firm in their beliefs to have "waybrain" is a gross exaggeration and a vague generalization. Is it being fixated on TWI. And I know people who were in TWI who weren't as firm in their beliefs as others in TWI were. It is never a good idea to try and label people and put them in this box where one presumes that everyone within a certain group or organization all act the same way or think the same way.
Catholics don't think all the same way, even if they all seem to know the right phrases to respond with to the priest. Some Baptists play cards and dance, and others think those things are wrong. If one took the time when they were in TWI to check out the varieties of individuals that were there, one would have realized that there was a great diversity of personalities there. This generalization of "waybrain" is not substantiated by the facts.
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def59
Ok Dave
Lets go over the "rules" you start and then we'll know what the ground rules are.
The reason some accuse you of WayBrain is that your attitude seems to be if twi has a doctrine or belief that you agree with then its truth and anyone who says otherwise is wrong, hates vpw or is illogical.
That in itself is not logical.
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Oakspear
I don't know about anyone else, but BFD stood for BibleFan Dave in my posts, nothwithstanding what the "right" way to abbreviate it is
-->
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Oakspear
Okay, no talking about Wierwille, no personal attacks. Sounds good. No dismissing what people post as "lack of understanding" without supporting verses either
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Oakspear
BFD:
Can you, speaking as someone who believes that administrations are biblical, address Steve Lortz's position? Or perhaps my questions about possible additional "administrations"?
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Steve Lortz
Biblefan Dave - You wrote, "It is never a good idea to try and label people and put them in this box where one presumes that everyone within a certain group or organization all act the same way or think the same way."
If you really believe that, then why do you presume my conclusions about "administrations" are based on disappointment or hatred of Wierwille?
You also wrote, "...We discovered that TWI had made errors, and had refused to correct them. Some people were upset about the error, and became angry, bitter, and resentful. They rejected everything they were taught. They developed an agenda to try and disprove everything VPW and LCM and other leaders taught. They were adamant about trying to show how wrong TWI teachings and teachers were. Thus, the agenda caused people to reject things that were true because the intent and goal was to prove them wrong. This overcompensation or overreaction caused people to err in the wrong direction."
Do you presume that I opened up my concordance to find the uses of "oikonomia" and "diatheke" because I was bitter, angry and resentful?
No.
I did it because I wanted to reassure myself about the things we had been taught regarding the pretribulation gathering together of the Church. Guess what. The things I found actually written in the Word of God do not support the things Wierwille taught in PFAL.
Do you presume I'm driven by an agenda to prove everything I learned in PFAL wrong?
If so, then why do I still speak in tongues?
"Thus, the agenda caused people to reject things that were true because the intent and goal was to prove them wrong."
You hector some of us here for judging the validity of Wierwille's teachings based on his perceived (or possibly misperceived) intents. Why do you then judge the validity of what I write concerning "administrations" based on your misperception of MY intents?
I don't reject Wierwille's scheme of "administrations" because my intent and goal is to prove it wrong. I reject it because it IS NOT TRUE. If we apply the principles of PFAL the way they were PREACHED (NOT the way they were actually TAUGHT, and I can give you citations it you want them), then we find that there is NO SCRIPTURAL FOUNDATION for believing that the Word of God ever uses "oikonomia" to indicate a "period of time". Wierwille built his scheme of "administrations" on sand.
Love,
Steve
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Biblefan Dave
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Biblefan Dave
Also, why is "waybrain" only used in a negative way. Just about everyone I knew in TWI loved God, loved Jesus Christ, and loved the truths of God's Word. While it may not have applied to every single person involved, I believe that that one could characterize people in TWI as good Christian people who loved God and did their best to live according to God's Word.
People in TWI were generally very giving. People gave of their time and their money, generally because they wanted to. Many people witnessed to others because of the great things God had done in their lives. People ran fellowships usually because they wanted to. People ran or assisted with classes because they wanted to. People offered rides to others because they wanted to. So, as most people in TWI were giving people, I would say "waybrain" represents an attitude of giving and service.
When people only focus on the negative, it certainly does not demonstrate a grateful, thankful attitude.
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Biblefan Dave
Steve,
If there is an "administration (oikonomia) of grace", how could it not represent a period of time? If administer is to oversee, then there would be an oversight for the length of time grace is available. If administer means to give out or dispense or allot, then that giving out of grace is not a one-time occurrence but would happen continuously as long as born again believers are present on earth until such a TIME when grace would no longer be administered, i.e, the gathering together (oops, 40 lashes to me for using "Way terminology").
When someone oversees, they generally oversee for a period of time. The security guard has set working hours. The project manager devotes many hours to managing the project and projecting the needs as far as manhours, materials, procedures, processes, etc. to complete the project. The management takes place over time. As nothing man makes ever turns out perfectly, there are always points at which revisions must take place along the way. This takes time.
When someone dispenses or doles out something that is continuously given out, then there is a commitment of time. The pharmacist dispenses medications to people who are prescribed those particular medications. The pharmacy maintains a pharmacist usually for as long as the pharmacy is in business, thus denoting a period of time. Supply room personnel generally are long term personnel because the needs of a company demand people continuously present at designated times to distribute supplies. This connotes (wait, is connote a Way word?) time.
In otherwords, how can administration be void of time?
You see, if someone presents things devoid (another 40 lashes for using a TWI word) of character assassination, insults, personal attacks, and blatant negatively, I am all for considering what they say. I may not always accept it as true, but will always consider it.
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Biblefan Dave
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Biblefan Dave
Furthermore, Steve,
I apologize if I misjudged your intents. Maybe I reacted more angrily than I should have. But I am simply amazed that people who have had an exposure to God and to God's Word could ever develop some of the viciousness and hatred that if obvious from some here. I don't care if people have different conclusions, viewpoints, opinions, ideas, or the like. But when I see the constant personal attacks, character assassinations, insults, and general lack of gratitude that's behind some of these opinions, one certainly has to look for the underlying agenda that motivates these things.
You know what, I did not like John Kerry for President. I simply did not feel he could handle foreign policy in our current circumstances of terrorism and other hostilities. I wanted someone to find some provable "dirt" on him that would substantiate my preferences. It never happened. In the end, I simply liked Bush more. There were the Swift Boat people, but they never really proved their case. As much as I would have liked to believe the negative about him, the negatives I heard were not substantiated. It came down to a simple preference. Yet, there were plenty of negatives floating around about Kerry, but I don't like to buy into rumors.
I haven't been in TWI since '87. I really don't count a few months in '89 when some WOW ran a fellowship near me, as I had already left TWI in my mind and I felt it harder to relate to things they said and did at that time. I left voluntarily in '87. In '89, 2 years after I left, I was asked if I was 100% committed to the "ministry". I responded by asking if the "ministry" would be 100% committed to teaching accurate knowledge, treating people correctly, and correcting the errors and problems that had crept in. I was told I was no longer welcome at any Way function, which was no big deal since I had already left.
So, I have no bandwagon to climb onto and no special reason to come to TWI's defence. I am not interested in TWI, I am interested in truth. But I am eternally grateful for the things I did learn in TWI. Not interested now, thankful for then.
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Galen
def59:
"Oak is right when he says we disagree often, but we respect each other. The same goes (respect, I hope) with Raf, Sudo and Grizzy, even Galen, to name a few."
Really EVEN 'Galen'?
Wow, no not him.
:-)
And here I was hoping that this particular discussion could go right on without mention of me.
Personally I do see that Our Heavenly Father does treat different peoples differently. To me, when I see Him acting one way in one era, and then acting oppositely in a different era; it must be due to different X---X.
Whether those differences happened in an hour, or gradually over a decade. Some people's knew the G-d of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob to have been a fierce mean vengefull and jealous G-d.
In the New Testament, we see Our Creator as our Father. A loving benevolent Dad, to those who worship Him.
Whether we wish to call these eras: dispensations, or administrations, or eras, or whatever. Was there 6, or 10, or 20? I dont care.
It does make for good reading though.
"I can respect your beliefs and disagree with your conclusions. How about giving some of that back?"
With all due respect, of course.
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Vertical Limit
Knock, Knock, Knock!!!!
Hello!?
This is what we are to be good stewards of!
Hebrews8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. 7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. 8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: 9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: 11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
"for all shall know me from the least to the greatest"
1 John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
John 14:25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you. 26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. 27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.
Jeremiah31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
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Goey
I would like to see someone here actually make a case for TWI's version of dispensationalsm.
Why not start with the so-called grace administration/dispensation. Use the scriptures and do an exegesis/expostion to show that there is in fact a biblical "grace administration", what it is precisely, and how it affects us.
Saying so-and-so got it right and I believe it -or grandstanding and claiming by fiat that the opposing view is "illogical" - just won't cust the mustard. Make a solid case for it.
I posted a little on Ephesians 3 but Dave and the others that support dispensatinalism chose not to address my commentary. Hmmm ????
I suppose that I am ready to do a real discussion on this topic of dispensationalism. But bring your bible and your brain your willingness to do some critical thinking because Logical fallacies, like strawman arguments, circular reasoning, word salads and ad hominen attacks will be quickly disposed of.
Goey
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