Spirit, breath, face, we are mostly water plus occasional hot air.
There is another doctrinal thread about circumcision to which I am going to be making some comments.
One of them is about the comparison between:
the seal of Abraham's righteousness of faith being represented by the symbol of circumcision
and
the believers in the New Testament (Ephesians 1)
who after hearing the word of truth, trusting
and having the seal of the holy spirit as a token.
"in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy spirit of promise,
which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchases possession unto the praise of his glory"
--
Abraham believes: receives seal of righteousnes
Child of Abraham believes: receives a seal, the holy spirit.
The references to Jesus being the baptizer in the Holy Spirit by John the baptizer in water unto repentance in the gospels are amazing in how they fit with references in the Church epistles. (more on that later)
---
I entertain the possibility that spirit and software are symbolically valueable to people today.
I mean think about it this way:
both (spirit and software code) are really
invisible to our senses, until they are presented in some form of inter-FACE.
Software is simply a bunch of words.
While holy spirit appears in one form as "the Word"
Both need (at some times for specific purposes) some type hardware in order to be experienced or used in "the real world"
Computing and digital devices provide access to communication and storage of invisible powerful words collected into beneficial packages of "words" that we call "programs"
While the earthen vessels we live in allow the (spirit, soul and body) composite objects of mankind represented in many,many individual instances to interact and exist.
I was watching a couple of programs this morning that got me thinking. The first program was The Jewish Voice. The second program was Mysteries of the Rosary.
On The Jewish Voice a Jewish singer was singing about how the messiah hanging on the tree was God's love. The song moved me to a deeper understanding of the work of the cross.
Also on that program was an explanation of the shofar...the trump of God...and how, according to scripture, the sound is the closest thing on earth to what the voice of God sounds like.
On Mysteries of the Rosary the priest was focussing upon Mary (this was one program in a series of programs about the rosary). He pointed out that Mary was assumed into heaven and is there.
Together, these programs heightened my understanding of spirit.
On a radio program I was listening to last night, the preacher was saying that Jesus meets us from out of eternity.
God is spirit and we that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
In all the references to spirit that I know of in the bible, it's always the thing that gets things done.
In other words, it is the spirit that interacts with mankind.
Before spirit was sent to mankind, God walked in the garden, appeared as a burning bush or bright light, worked via animals, Jesus walked on the face of the earth, etc. There were actual physical manifestations of God's presence.
Now spirit has been added and is given to mankind...so that each one of us can have a personal relationship all our own...without requirement of human mediation or condition.
I think holy spirit was always available. Even in the old testament.
1 Peter 1:10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: 11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow
And when Adam and Eve sined and saw that they were naked, they were ashamed and hid themSELVES. I wonder what tree they were hiding behind? The garden of God has many trees. God was still talking to them though.
There is no need to hide behind our shame or anything else. What was taken out of the way and nailed to the cross? We have what Adam and Eve had before they went up the wrong tree. Even after they blew it God never left them. Spirit never left them either.
Where is the Garden of God? What runs through our veins with every breath. The tree of self stands tall and wide at times.
Many things were used to break the attention off of one's own self, like a burning bush that wasn't burning, or an *** talking. Or a pillar of fire.
Some hid themselves. Some followed Jesus and others said he had a devil. In Acts 2 3000 believed and were saved and others said they were drunk. Who has ears to hear? And when? In God's good time I reckon.
I've learned that learning to breathe fully with our entire body-mind is much like losing a foreskin, or losing? the hymen, or something. Doing so, activates a variety of one-time physiological changes. And physiological changes stimulate emotional change, and then more behavioral change.
But we can go our entire life and never "do it," or "just barely and accidentally do it." In other words, maybe never in our life will we fully experience the full extent of what our body-mind (i.e lungs, blood, bones, nervous system, hormones, organs, tissues, etc...) is capable of. This is a tragedy of "Biblical" proportions, imo.
Air is vital energy. Free. Abundant. It helps us understand God and everything.
Air = negative space = feminine = help-meet = helps grow = like air helps trees grow = we are trees within trees within trees...). Our lungs are a big part of the tree of life. You ever seen a lung? Likewise our veins? Nervous system? etc... Tree after tree after tree.
But once we learn some basics, we find that our body-mind is structurally capable of breathably manipulating oxygen in our organs all the way from our pelvic floor up to a half dozen places in our throat and skull. Some of my initial/initiating breathwork experiences were exciting (and even troubling) at first (like a first kiss), but have leveled off steady (more like marriage).
But the science of using the planet's air to heal and enlighten the human body-mind was already thousands of years old when Jesus taught and demonstrated it (though that knowledge or teaching of it was not what made him unique, it was hugely important to his chosen audience (the squeaky wheel gets the grease, right?)).
I know this may sound "unspiritual," but I am speaking with a largely "unspiritual" voice. If I was to use "spiritual" voice, I would say something like to practice and develop breathwork makes one "a disciple of the holy breath." But religious labels can get so troublesome at times. Besides, air is not The Spirit.
;)-->
But be smart about it, and educate yourself on breathwork as you practice.
Search and read and find students and teachers.
Like all things, misuse is possible.
In my own temple/framework of life, I put almost all breathwork on the lower planes of body and soul. The air of the world is NOT the ultimate Spiritual plane.
to answer a question from 2life on another thread...
My breathwork began post-twi in Bible "research" of pneuma hagion, actually. And I saw how the eastern sciences were not a threat to Christ-centered spirituallity, but a witness of them (but that is a doctrinal thing, I guess). It then developed into a practice once I learned there was something to practice.
My first successes came from some basic techniques from Kundalini Yoga, but I have studied and sampled and practiced a dozen other breathwork traditions since, and have developed some of my own rituals and routines. But learning styles differ, of course. Where you begin depends on where you are now, I suppose. But you know that. ;)-->
Dr. Weil produced one of the best primer breathwork CDs I have ever heard.
I think its an efficient place for westerners to begin.
But breathwork alone is like painting with one color. Good diet multiplies the benefit of breathwork. As do things like meditation, reading, clear thought, dreaming, sexual practice, etc... They all work best in harmony together. Full-spectrum practice, or integral practice (whatever you want to call it), AMPLIFIES the results.
Now I can't not think of air as food and medicine, literally. No figure of speech or fancy poetry. "Its just air" is a "blasphemy" of sorts, in that its an attitude that destroys our own bodies and souls. But by using our breath, we can heal ourselves (and even those we touch) if we learn and practice. I've seen it, felt it, repeated it, etc... But, as always, its to the depth and degree.
It will be years before I would ever attempt to write anything on the subject. Simply because it would take me that at least that long to find suitable words for something so wonderful. And, I would rather know more and live it a bit more before I open my yap too officially.
On a sadder note, most people I know these days are ill and suffering from lifetime of one abuse or another. Some are in end-stage of this that or the other, too. Breathwork is more preventative and developmental, even restorative. It does not replace the need for a lung transplant, if it has gotten to that (though certain breath techniques have helped ME greatly in helping in these situations).
You need good lungs/heart/blood to get the most out of breathwork. Its best as a lifestyle thing, rather than band-aid or cosmetics, though is a great aid in healing (emotional or physical).
But, before I forget to mention, I think there is a stark difference between the holy spirit (as in breath of soul) and The Spirit (of the nesting in Genesis).
I guess I emphasised what I've seen in the holy spirit as breath of the soul, because even as "mere" soul, it is often horribly underrated and underused in our quest for greater Spirit (which quest will never pan out anyway). Very exciting and beneficial field.
But, the stark contrast is...
...the holy breath can be manipulated, used, developed and learned from, and we get great active principle benefits to life. But it is a thing.
...The Spirit can only be rested in (or not). Nothing more, nothing less. There is nothing to see here. As a practice, this "resting in the witness" is probably the one most worthy to be called foundational to all else. Not that it is superior (rather, it is beyond all things) but, to the depth and degree one can rest in Spirit, all else grows upward and outward more efficiently and effectively. Even our breathwork. Because as we rest in The Spirit, nothing gets in the way of our view of all the other things.
There are so many ways "spirit" and "Spirit" is used in english, let alone the english bible canon. But this "resting in the witness" version seems a, if not the, most common denominator when comparing all scripture with all "spiritual" things.
I think this Spirit is what you say you want VL, which is why you can't find it anywhere.
It cannot be found. It just is. Always. Stop looking and you find it.
Though the holy spirit helps us learn to rest in That Spirit.
Active and inactive spirit together = a non-dual oneness.
Like I said, there are also practices that aid in this.
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Darrell Bailey
Vertical Limit:
Very interesting!
Spirit, breath, face, we are mostly water plus occasional hot air.
There is another doctrinal thread about circumcision to which I am going to be making some comments.
One of them is about the comparison between:
the seal of Abraham's righteousness of faith being represented by the symbol of circumcision
and
the believers in the New Testament (Ephesians 1)
who after hearing the word of truth, trusting
and having the seal of the holy spirit as a token.
"in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy spirit of promise,
which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchases possession unto the praise of his glory"
--
Abraham believes: receives seal of righteousnes
Child of Abraham believes: receives a seal, the holy spirit.
The references to Jesus being the baptizer in the Holy Spirit by John the baptizer in water unto repentance in the gospels are amazing in how they fit with references in the Church epistles. (more on that later)
---
I entertain the possibility that spirit and software are symbolically valueable to people today.
I mean think about it this way:
both (spirit and software code) are really
invisible to our senses, until they are presented in some form of inter-FACE.
Software is simply a bunch of words.
While holy spirit appears in one form as "the Word"
Both need (at some times for specific purposes) some type hardware in order to be experienced or used in "the real world"
Computing and digital devices provide access to communication and storage of invisible powerful words collected into beneficial packages of "words" that we call "programs"
While the earthen vessels we live in allow the (spirit, soul and body) composite objects of mankind represented in many,many individual instances to interact and exist.
___
Thanks for listening,
More Later
Darrell
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Vertical Limit
Yes cool comparisons.
"sealed with that holy spirit of promise"
that would be believing unto salvation.
That spirit is closer than we think-even for the unsaved.
Truth believed awakens the understanding and brings to light things that have been hidden.
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CoolWaters
This is a very interesting subject to me.
I was watching a couple of programs this morning that got me thinking. The first program was The Jewish Voice. The second program was Mysteries of the Rosary.
On The Jewish Voice a Jewish singer was singing about how the messiah hanging on the tree was God's love. The song moved me to a deeper understanding of the work of the cross.
Also on that program was an explanation of the shofar...the trump of God...and how, according to scripture, the sound is the closest thing on earth to what the voice of God sounds like.
On Mysteries of the Rosary the priest was focussing upon Mary (this was one program in a series of programs about the rosary). He pointed out that Mary was assumed into heaven and is there.
Together, these programs heightened my understanding of spirit.
On a radio program I was listening to last night, the preacher was saying that Jesus meets us from out of eternity.
God is spirit and we that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
In all the references to spirit that I know of in the bible, it's always the thing that gets things done.
In other words, it is the spirit that interacts with mankind.
Before spirit was sent to mankind, God walked in the garden, appeared as a burning bush or bright light, worked via animals, Jesus walked on the face of the earth, etc. There were actual physical manifestations of God's presence.
Now spirit has been added and is given to mankind...so that each one of us can have a personal relationship all our own...without requirement of human mediation or condition.
For what I know...
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Vertical Limit
Hey Cool Waters...cool name.
I think holy spirit was always available. Even in the old testament.
1 Peter 1:10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: 11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow
And when Adam and Eve sined and saw that they were naked, they were ashamed and hid themSELVES. I wonder what tree they were hiding behind? The garden of God has many trees. God was still talking to them though.
There is no need to hide behind our shame or anything else. What was taken out of the way and nailed to the cross? We have what Adam and Eve had before they went up the wrong tree. Even after they blew it God never left them. Spirit never left them either.
Where is the Garden of God? What runs through our veins with every breath. The tree of self stands tall and wide at times.
Many things were used to break the attention off of one's own self, like a burning bush that wasn't burning, or an *** talking. Or a pillar of fire.
Some hid themselves. Some followed Jesus and others said he had a devil. In Acts 2 3000 believed and were saved and others said they were drunk. Who has ears to hear? And when? In God's good time I reckon.
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sirguessalot
Nice thread, VL.
Good conversations going.
I've learned that learning to breathe fully with our entire body-mind is much like losing a foreskin, or losing? the hymen, or something. Doing so, activates a variety of one-time physiological changes. And physiological changes stimulate emotional change, and then more behavioral change.
But we can go our entire life and never "do it," or "just barely and accidentally do it." In other words, maybe never in our life will we fully experience the full extent of what our body-mind (i.e lungs, blood, bones, nervous system, hormones, organs, tissues, etc...) is capable of. This is a tragedy of "Biblical" proportions, imo.
Air is vital energy. Free. Abundant. It helps us understand God and everything.
Air = negative space = feminine = help-meet = helps grow = like air helps trees grow = we are trees within trees within trees...). Our lungs are a big part of the tree of life. You ever seen a lung? Likewise our veins? Nervous system? etc... Tree after tree after tree.
But once we learn some basics, we find that our body-mind is structurally capable of breathably manipulating oxygen in our organs all the way from our pelvic floor up to a half dozen places in our throat and skull. Some of my initial/initiating breathwork experiences were exciting (and even troubling) at first (like a first kiss), but have leveled off steady (more like marriage).
But the science of using the planet's air to heal and enlighten the human body-mind was already thousands of years old when Jesus taught and demonstrated it (though that knowledge or teaching of it was not what made him unique, it was hugely important to his chosen audience (the squeaky wheel gets the grease, right?)).
I know this may sound "unspiritual," but I am speaking with a largely "unspiritual" voice. If I was to use "spiritual" voice, I would say something like to practice and develop breathwork makes one "a disciple of the holy breath." But religious labels can get so troublesome at times. Besides, air is not The Spirit.
But be smart about it, and educate yourself on breathwork as you practice.
Search and read and find students and teachers.
Like all things, misuse is possible.
In my own temple/framework of life, I put almost all breathwork on the lower planes of body and soul. The air of the world is NOT the ultimate Spiritual plane.
peace
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sirguessalot
to answer a question from 2life on another thread...
My breathwork began post-twi in Bible "research" of pneuma hagion, actually. And I saw how the eastern sciences were not a threat to Christ-centered spirituallity, but a witness of them (but that is a doctrinal thing, I guess). It then developed into a practice once I learned there was something to practice.
My first successes came from some basic techniques from Kundalini Yoga, but I have studied and sampled and practiced a dozen other breathwork traditions since, and have developed some of my own rituals and routines. But learning styles differ, of course. Where you begin depends on where you are now, I suppose. But you know that.
;)-->
Dr. Weil produced one of the best primer breathwork CDs I have ever heard.
I think its an efficient place for westerners to begin.
But breathwork alone is like painting with one color. Good diet multiplies the benefit of breathwork. As do things like meditation, reading, clear thought, dreaming, sexual practice, etc... They all work best in harmony together. Full-spectrum practice, or integral practice (whatever you want to call it), AMPLIFIES the results.
Now I can't not think of air as food and medicine, literally. No figure of speech or fancy poetry. "Its just air" is a "blasphemy" of sorts, in that its an attitude that destroys our own bodies and souls. But by using our breath, we can heal ourselves (and even those we touch) if we learn and practice. I've seen it, felt it, repeated it, etc... But, as always, its to the depth and degree.
It will be years before I would ever attempt to write anything on the subject. Simply because it would take me that at least that long to find suitable words for something so wonderful. And, I would rather know more and live it a bit more before I open my yap too officially.
On a sadder note, most people I know these days are ill and suffering from lifetime of one abuse or another. Some are in end-stage of this that or the other, too. Breathwork is more preventative and developmental, even restorative. It does not replace the need for a lung transplant, if it has gotten to that (though certain breath techniques have helped ME greatly in helping in these situations).
You need good lungs/heart/blood to get the most out of breathwork. Its best as a lifestyle thing, rather than band-aid or cosmetics, though is a great aid in healing (emotional or physical).
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sirguessalot
But, before I forget to mention, I think there is a stark difference between the holy spirit (as in breath of soul) and The Spirit (of the nesting in Genesis).
I guess I emphasised what I've seen in the holy spirit as breath of the soul, because even as "mere" soul, it is often horribly underrated and underused in our quest for greater Spirit (which quest will never pan out anyway). Very exciting and beneficial field.
But, the stark contrast is...
...the holy breath can be manipulated, used, developed and learned from, and we get great active principle benefits to life. But it is a thing.
...The Spirit can only be rested in (or not). Nothing more, nothing less. There is nothing to see here. As a practice, this "resting in the witness" is probably the one most worthy to be called foundational to all else. Not that it is superior (rather, it is beyond all things) but, to the depth and degree one can rest in Spirit, all else grows upward and outward more efficiently and effectively. Even our breathwork. Because as we rest in The Spirit, nothing gets in the way of our view of all the other things.
There are so many ways "spirit" and "Spirit" is used in english, let alone the english bible canon. But this "resting in the witness" version seems a, if not the, most common denominator when comparing all scripture with all "spiritual" things.
I think this Spirit is what you say you want VL, which is why you can't find it anywhere.
It cannot be found. It just is. Always. Stop looking and you find it.
Though the holy spirit helps us learn to rest in That Spirit.
Active and inactive spirit together = a non-dual oneness.
Like I said, there are also practices that aid in this.
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Vertical Limit
Thanks Sirg,
Much needed input from you here as always.
My brain gets so crowded sometimes...
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Vertical Limit
And also, hey Cool Waters, sorry for sounding like I'm picking a fight or something. Must be the redneck in me.
:)-->
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