Without doubt, without equivocation, I know that Christ died and rose again.
My experiences with him personally, leave me without doubt. Religions vary, but God in Christ is the truth.
I am troubled, that, some who went through the way , dont have this experience. It is personal. It is real because it is personal. This is my displeasure with those who make Gods word not so.
Okay sky, I don't doubt your experience; but do you think that your subjective experience is superior to the experience of a non-Christian, and if so, why?
My experiences lead me to the pre-Christian Celtic goddess and Celtic spirituality. I don't see where one is more true than the other.
I first believed because Christianity was shown to be the only Way to proclaim death an enemy, and an enemy which God has totally defeated by raising Christ from the dead.
All man-made religions rationalize death and attempt to make friends with it.
Then, in addition to that, without God's grace and mercy and power to FREELY give us eternal life, there'd be NO WAY any of us could be allowed into God's presence.
I loved Him because He loved me first.
It's the goodness and gentleness of THIS God that persuades a man to change his mind and accept Christianity.
Amen! God, thru Jesus Christ, defeated death and no other "religion" can make that claim. It is THE love story of all time and I thank Him for His grace and mercy.
I'm pleased to meet both of you. I think this is the first time we've chatted.
Hi Oakspear! I'm glad you ask good questions like this!
When I first encountered accurate Christianity it was obvious to me that there is a difference between making a claim, and that claim being true. However, at that time, I was also aware that Biblical Christianity’s claim was unique: that God was against death, didn’t invent it, told man how to avoid it, and then made provisions to undo it after man brought it on. The uniqueness of this claim gave me reason to pay extra attention to Christianity over the various systems and religions I was considering, and to WANT to believe that it was true. I put in the effort to look deeper, and the more I saw in God’s Word, the more I believed.
As far as I know, no other “religion†even TRIES to make that claim. They fall down and not only accept death, they even incorporate death into their cosmic schemes.
When I saw that at hearing of his friend Lazarus’ death Jesus wept, I said to myself THAT’S the kind of man I want to follow. Jesus did NOT accept the standard religious BS notion that Lazarus “was in a better place.†Quite the contrary, he protested it and went and raised him up.
Jesus most definitely is the example that I choose to follow. He wept, laughed, and loved people--all the emotions that we, men especially, have been taught are a sign of weakness. In truth, He displayed what it means to be a "man's man".
I'm a little bit less polite than Oakspear, so I'll go ahead and ask what I think he would be interested in knowing as well.
quote:Originally posted by Mike:
I first believed because Christianity was shown to be the only Way to proclaim death an enemy, and an enemy which God has totally defeated by raising Christ from the dead.
Pretty much all religions claim to have an afterlife though, but there are none that have produced actual immortals walking around here that we can prove exist. Plus, we can prove that Christians die 100% of the time just like non-Christians, so there is no evidence to support that Christians benefit in an afterlife.
quote:Originally posted by Mike:
All man-made religions rationalize death and attempt to make friends with it.
Doesn't Christianity as well? Whether you believe you go straight to heaven, or whether you believe in TWI-styled "falling asleep but waking up when Christ comes back" doctrine, Christianity attempts to rationalize death and claims to have a work-around. The concepts of Heaven and Hell are not all that different from everything from the ancient Egyptians to the Buddhists to the Muslims to anything else. No religion claims that you will not die and can honestly prove that.
quote:Originally posted by Mike:
Then, in addition to that, without God's grace and mercy and power to FREELY give us eternal life, there'd be NO WAY any of us could be allowed into God's presence.
Why not? If he made us, then we are exactly what he wants us to be. Why should self-depreciation be part of a religion like Christianity when it flies in the face of creationism?
quote:Originally posted by Mike:
I loved Him because He loved me first.
How do you know this? How can you prove it?
quote:Originally posted by Mike:
It's the goodness and gentleness of THIS God that persuades a man to change his mind and accept Christianity.
The same as before, what evidence is there of the Christian god's existance, and if you can prove that, what evidence do you have of his goodness and gentleness?
Well, we've been up and down this road before, haven't we?
The difficult part of this dialog is that there is a disconnect between the believer and the skeptic. There is a certain point in the believer's mind beyond which he will not go, for to tread in that territory would put at risk all he has come to hold dear for all the years of his "believing" stature.
I know as a Christian I would never entertain the thought that the Bible could be anything but GOD'S WORD . For to do so would raise all kinds of questions I just wasn't ready to face. Not terribly difficult questions, ones like Oak and Mosh have already raised, and a few others.
That is where the disconnect comes in. The skeptic has no problem venturing into those forbidden topics, because he has no fear of finding out something he doesn't want to. The believer, OTOH, risks his very identity. So the skeptic can ask all those type of questions he wants, but the believer, IMHO, will forever be playing a game of obfuscating, spinning, and twisting the facts - I think often, unconsciously - in order not to upset his accepted mythology.
I know personally that intellectual dishonesy was where I lived throughout my tenure as a "Christian".
Okay sky, I don't doubt your experience; but do you think that your subjective experience is superior to the experience of a non-Christian, and if so, why?
Here is why that I understand that faith in Christ is the chosen plan. In order to have my experience validated you must have faith, (you have heard that), faith is simply an interest, a respect for his majesty in my eyes. Without a pure heart, you cannot enter into the presence of the Almighty. In my quest it has been validated in this method, so that it is objective (my experience) to me not subjective.
I realize my experince does you little good other than to describe a path I know that works.
If a person mingles adultry , fornication and wickedness with an attempt to know God, one will only come up confused. One cannot come to God on thier terms, they must come to him oh his terms. This is the meaning of the word believe. Believe encompasses encompasses a value that believes that what that person does for me, is better than what I can do myself for me. This is the essence (IMO) of the Christian faith.
I do not become a lessor sinner because of myself. I am changed by beholding his face. The things is hes and his attributes become gradually a facet of my life.
Throughout this process the concept of competing Gods to me is utter foolishness. Certainly I could give you personal illustrations as "proof", but I think "proof" of ones faith is individual, because you would be less prone to believe a personal illustration than you would the method I think faith is validated.
The difficult part of this dialog is that there is a disconnect between the believer and the skeptic. There is a certain point in the believer's mind beyond which he will not go, for to tread in that territory would put at risk all he has come to hold dear for all the years of his "believing" stature.
You know what tho George that has never been so with me. I not talking about the difference between skeptic and believer tho. I have found that over the course of time what I believe becomes modified the more I know the Lord.
This is best served with an illustration. I used to think the Wrath of God was inconsistent with a loving God and I was uncertain how to reconcile the two. It made me somewhat fearful of taking a wrong turn, then thinking anything bad happening to me was the wrath thing. My view on this has deeply changed. I now see the wrath of God as simply God walking away and leaving man to his own self. Self destruction would ensue. When does God walk away? When (I think) he has tried every thing possible to set the road straight in a mans life. This is consistent with love also, for God could not be "righteous" if he enabled man to be "wicked."
I find myself in much more freedom these days, knowing God is not standing with a chip on his shoulder for any vice I may have. It makes it more of a "partnership" than it does a I am scared chitless thing.
I realize I strayed off the beaten path of your topic. But I think it necessary, for there have been times I was clueless as to what he was doing, only to find out later, that he had a very valid reason for doing what he did. My point is simply that I believe if there is something within us that is harmful, God will challenge our faith to enlarge it. If I didnt live this way on a daily basis, I would be frustrated and "skeptical" of what he is doing.
I think some skeptism is healthy. I think God delights in the opportunity to change our skeptism into stronger faith. Noticeably in the gospels, faith is tested and becomes gold, silver or brass. Therefore the quality of it can be modified. It is also eternal, and one thing that we can take with us.
But, you haven't given us anything. You're still believing it because you do.
I know lots of people who have widely disparate views when it comes to theology. I knew a girl who was absolutely convinced that astrology was God's way of communicating with man. I have a very good friend who's certain that the priest at his temple (he's a Buddhist) can levitate at will (though he's never actually SEEN him do it), I have friends (ex-Wayfers) who are WAY off into "apocalyptic Christian" movement (I REALLY don't get that). I also know several Mormons, a Muslim or two, and a JW.
These folks are all as convinced as you (it would seem) as to the veracity of their particular belief system. Yet, they cannot all be right if you are(and vice versa), can they?
People believe all sorts of stuff. And there are absolute, sold-out zealots in just about every religion you can think of. Every bit as convinced of the rightness of their faith (and the wrongness of everyone elses) as you seem to be. How can you be so sure you're not just deluding yourself? Somebody someplace must be, no?
These folks are all as convinced as you (it would seem) as to the veracity of their particular belief system. Yet, they cannot all be right if you are(and vice versa), can they?
People believe all sorts of stuff. And there are absolute, sold-out zealots in just about every religion you can think of. Every bit as convinced of the rightness of their faith (and the wrongness of everyone elses) as you seem to be. How can you be so sure you're not just deluding yourself? Somebody someplace must be, no?
First, Geo, I am not absolutely convinced of the veracity of my particular belief system. Niether does is bother me. Why? Because I am persuaded that God is more concerned about his relationship with me than he is particular sets of doctinal beliefs.
It is God that works in me that I focus on. I am persuaded beyond doubt that this is the way God would have it. It is my faith the Lord focus's on. This is real. This is simple.
Hell, Geo, I have a JW friend too. He tries to convert me everytime I have dinner at his place.
Where does he lose me? When he starts throwing the Greek towel around like thats more important than my personal relationship with Christ thats where. I have been in and out of at least 9 different Christian groups all with varying sets of doctrines. I could give a hoot about most of it. Why? Because most doctrines dont have any basis in ordinary day to day living and how that plays out. Like the rapture and the Virgin Mary and creeds, they dont save me, so why be hamstrung by it.
I dont think I am preaching a set of beliefs either. All I need is Christ, and I know that he was crucified.
There is an interesting story that I want to tell you:
Richard Wurmbrand a jailed Lutheran minister in communist Romania tells this story. There was a man who was jailed and beaten in the severe communist days. He had always been told that God did not exist according to communist ideology. After years of torture , he began to cry out to God to help him if he existed. The prison guards heard his crys. In order to torment him even more, some guards took a bible and ripped out a few small words of it and gave it to him. The words said, " And the Lord said to Jeremiah". Upon hearing that, that man said, if the Lord can speak to this man Jeremiah surely he can speak too me. Upon saying that he was filled with the Holy Ghost, having known nothing about the teachings of Christ. Doctrine? What doctrine did he have.
My point is simply that we cannot limit the almighty and why should we? All I want is to know him and that is a good enough "doctrine" for me.
I’m sorry I ran out of time and haven’t been able to read much of your discussion with George. Maybe later. All of the following I was writing while those posts were appearing.
You wrote: “I know as a Christian I would never entertain the thought that the Bible could be anything but GOD'S WORD . For to do so would raise all kinds of questions I just wasn't ready to face. Not terribly difficult questions, ones like Oak and Mosh have already raised, and a few others.â€
I agree. It is this very thing, this very scary thing, that I am dealing with as I present my Table of Challenge on the Masters thread. In his last Way Magazine writing Dr TWICE challenged us to face these kinds of questions.
You wrote(with my bold font): ‘That is where the disconnect comes in. The skeptic has no problem venturing into those forbidden topics, because he has no fear of finding out something he doesn't want to. The believer, OTOH, risks his very identity. So the skeptic can ask all those type of questions he wants, but the believer, IMHO, will forever be playing a game of obfuscating, spinning, and twisting the facts - I think often, unconsciously - in order not to upset his accepted mythology.â€
Again I agree, except with the “forever†part. Some believers have taken up this challenge, but most run and hide.
It is no wonder to me that skeptics like Oakspear and Abigail have been the most able to see some crucial aspects of my Table of Challenge. When I find the time I’ll get back to elucidating this, but that’s another thread.
You wrote: “Pretty much all religions claim to have an afterlife though, but there are none that have produced actual immortals walking around here that we can prove exist.â€
There are two points under discussion: (1)the claim, and (2)the truth of the claim. My focus is on the former right now.
All religions claim to have an afterlife, and death is the door to that afterlife. Therefore death is a friend. “You won’t REALLY die, you’ll be floating around up there smoking 50 dollar cigars.â€
All religions, starting with Eve’s, try to befriend death in one way or another. Their claim is that death is not as bad as it looks. You get to go somewhere new, or get to be reincarcerated back here. The Bible is unique in that it declares death an enemy and NOT a door to anything but a dirt nap.
Now, the proof of the truth behind that claim comes much later. That takes much more than debate and thought. It takes growing up in a relationship with God, and He presents the proof to us that we cannot present to ourselves.
***
You wrote regarding rationalizing death: “Doesn't Christianity as well? Whether you believe you go straight to heaven, or whether you believe in TWI-styled "falling asleep but waking up when Christ comes back" doctrine, Christianity attempts to rationalize death and claims to have a work-around.â€
It’s one thing to say that God has a “work-around†but it’s another thing to say that He invented it. Actually, I’d use stronger language and say that God and Jesus Christ have utterly destroyed the inventor of death along with his invention, as Hebrews 2:14 declares. This is a bold stand and a unique claim. Man-made religions cast God, the Creator of life, into the role of death’s inventor. They portray death as an integral part of the cosmic machinery, and something man needs to learn to like.
Remember the context of this thread is Oakspear’s question: what makes Christianity unique? The answer is Christianity’s stand against the enemy death, claiming it to be contrary to God’s will. The proof of the claim is a totally different subject.
***
I had written: “...without God's grace and mercy and power to FREELY give us eternal life, there'd be NO WAY any of us could be allowed into God's presence.â€
Then you responded with: “Why not? If he made us, then we are exactly what he wants us to be. Why should self-depreciation be part of a religion like Christianity when it flies in the face of creationism?â€
God did not make us, that is US us. We were made by our parents, mostly our mothers.
God formed, made and created man in the beginning, but then “we†were re-made, not in God’s image, but I the adversary’s. Man lost spirit and has needed a re-connect ever since.
We are NOT born “exactly what he [God] wants us to be.†We are born only two thirds of what He wants us to be. The rebellions of Lucifer and Adam do indeed fly “in the face of creationism†because God allows freedom of will, wills other than His own.
It’s not a false self-depreciation to recognize that there is are genuine problems like death and sin. It IS a false self-aggrandizement to think that humans don’t really die and have god-like thought patterns. This is, of course, the very first lie recorded in the Bible.
***
How do I know He loved me first? How can I prove it? I can’t prove it TO YOU in my own words, but I can allow God to prove it TO ME by focusing my attention on His Word.
The same process will work for you if you go through those same motions and focus on the same things (accurately).
If you want prior proof from me or anyone else in words you’re not going to get it.
All I can give you is the reason why I focused on this accurate Christianity (presented best in PFAL) above others. That reason is the unique claim of Christianity and the unique God who invented it.
I'm going to interject my thoughts here...not because I would be considered "christian" or because I consider myself "christian"...but because I know Jesus...probably as intimately (if not more so) than many "christians".
As you know, I dumped what passes for "christianity" a couple of years ago once I realized that it was all mental tricks, I decided that this particular trip was "do or die...and if you do, you'll die anyway...but hopefully you'll rise again...and if you don't, then my superiority gives me the right to wish (or actually help...if I'm serving mah kahntree in that thar holy war) you to die."
But what about this Jesus thing?
Hmmm. Well, no matter what path I walked along, I met this entity known as Jesus. He was to me what is known in other circles as a familiar. He guided me, comforted me, discussed things with me and laughed with me.
So is this entity the Jesus of the bible? Who knows? If twi were still my path, I'd think this was that devil spurt false jeezus. But alas, twi doesn't know squat about the real Jesus, so why trust that thinking?
Do I believe this Jesus was crucified? Yes. He isn't the only person to have ever been crucified.
Do I believe he was raised from the dead? Yes. Being raised from the dead is no longer the miracle it was back in the day.
Do I believe he ascended? Yes. He's not the only master that followers speak of ascending.
Is he my lord? Yes. In the truest sense of the word...which is bread giver and protector.
Does that make me a christian? I dunno. I don't care anymore...for in the end, all paths teach the same thing.
To me, the staunch black and white lines drawn in the religious sands are there for those who don't really know for sure...no matter what path one follows.
If a person cannot honestly let go of their beliefs and consider an option to their understanding, it is because they know their understanding is flawed.
IMO...
That said, however, I have learned that it is not wise to shake a person's belief system. The universe has its own ways...one should let the universe work.
Yes, I read your statement, I had to re-read it, though, to understand your point.
I stand by my previous position:
quote:What I'm seeing so far is:
"I like what Christianity says/teaches, it lines up with the way I think things should be"
rather than
"I see convincing evidence, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that Christianity is true"
I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with that, or that you should be offering me "proof" of any kind. You say that you saw "convincing evidense" of Christianity's truth. But only after you decided to "take it on faith". Again, I see nothing necessarily wrong with that stance.
My point is that my subjective experience is just as valid as your subjective experience. My position is not that Christianity is wrong, or in any way inferior, just that it's not self-evidently true. In other words, there is nothing about it that a disinterested, objective observer could look at that would lead one to believe that it was necessarily the one true faith.
Oak- In reading this thread I realize I have a different perspective from you on this. Let me try and explain it.
I am going to talk in terms of individuals rather than groups because I believe that no two individuals can have exactly the beliefs. Even if they are both Skeptics or Christians
First I think you are right when you say “it all comes down to a subjective experience, feelings, trust, faith, all that;†I believe everyone’s belief system is a result of their life experiences- starting at birth- what they were taught- primarily by example and then how it actually worked in their life. It seems that a basic human need is to understand the universe and the self’s relation in order to survive and thrive. The process of “understanding†the lessons of life is what forms each individuals belief system. The result at least for me is that I don’t feel that I can tell you when or why I decided to be a “Christian†I just know that I am. I also can’t tell you when I choose to be a male, be born in the USA to my parents etc. etc. etc.
-I have done what the bible said and got the expected results.
-I have prayed and gotten answers many times.
-I feel that God talks to and inspires me to Godly actions.
These have only confirmed or reinforced my “faith†they are not the reason for it. Perhaps it is the Bible being proved right in that God chose me before the beginning, and having faith first allowed my to have these experiences or perhaps it is pure coincidence. I don’t know- I also don’t care, because I don’t think it is possible to determine which is right at this time. Perhaps after I die it will.
So I also can’t tell you that my belief system is superior to any other persons. I recognize that their beliefs are a product of their individual attempt to understand and control their own lives. The same as mine is.
However I think that from my perspective it makes my belief in Christianity self evidently superior- to me and for me.
However I also recognize that almost all people assume that theirs is the only true and valid belief system. (I know mine is for me- I suspect yours is for you or you would not have started this thread) :)-->
Well, Oak, maybe it's not unlike Schroedinger's cat. Until you open the box, (i.e., die) you won't know if you were right or not. And, until you open the box, your beliefs are right and wrong at the same time :D-->
Oak- Belief systems are a work in progress for most of us.
I also think that our belief systems are much more a product of how well our earlier belief systems survived and explained the randomness and chaos of life than a product of "rational thought and choice".
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sky4it
Oakspear:
Without doubt, without equivocation, I know that Christ died and rose again.
My experiences with him personally, leave me without doubt. Religions vary, but God in Christ is the truth.
I am troubled, that, some who went through the way , dont have this experience. It is personal. It is real because it is personal. This is my displeasure with those who make Gods word not so.
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Oakspear
Okay sky, I don't doubt your experience; but do you think that your subjective experience is superior to the experience of a non-Christian, and if so, why?
My experiences lead me to the pre-Christian Celtic goddess and Celtic spirituality. I don't see where one is more true than the other.
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Mike
I first believed because Christianity was shown to be the only Way to proclaim death an enemy, and an enemy which God has totally defeated by raising Christ from the dead.
All man-made religions rationalize death and attempt to make friends with it.
Then, in addition to that, without God's grace and mercy and power to FREELY give us eternal life, there'd be NO WAY any of us could be allowed into God's presence.
I loved Him because He loved me first.
It's the goodness and gentleness of THIS God that persuades a man to change his mind and accept Christianity.
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bluesunday
Amen! God, thru Jesus Christ, defeated death and no other "religion" can make that claim. It is THE love story of all time and I thank Him for His grace and mercy.
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Mike
Hi bluesunday! Amen to you too!
Hi sky4it! Amen to you too!
I'm pleased to meet both of you. I think this is the first time we've chatted.
Hi Oakspear! I'm glad you ask good questions like this!
When I first encountered accurate Christianity it was obvious to me that there is a difference between making a claim, and that claim being true. However, at that time, I was also aware that Biblical Christianity’s claim was unique: that God was against death, didn’t invent it, told man how to avoid it, and then made provisions to undo it after man brought it on. The uniqueness of this claim gave me reason to pay extra attention to Christianity over the various systems and religions I was considering, and to WANT to believe that it was true. I put in the effort to look deeper, and the more I saw in God’s Word, the more I believed.
As far as I know, no other “religion†even TRIES to make that claim. They fall down and not only accept death, they even incorporate death into their cosmic schemes.
When I saw that at hearing of his friend Lazarus’ death Jesus wept, I said to myself THAT’S the kind of man I want to follow. Jesus did NOT accept the standard religious BS notion that Lazarus “was in a better place.†Quite the contrary, he protested it and went and raised him up.
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bluesunday
Jesus most definitely is the example that I choose to follow. He wept, laughed, and loved people--all the emotions that we, men especially, have been taught are a sign of weakness. In truth, He displayed what it means to be a "man's man".
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Mister P-Mosh
I'm a little bit less polite than Oakspear, so I'll go ahead and ask what I think he would be interested in knowing as well.
Pretty much all religions claim to have an afterlife though, but there are none that have produced actual immortals walking around here that we can prove exist. Plus, we can prove that Christians die 100% of the time just like non-Christians, so there is no evidence to support that Christians benefit in an afterlife.
Doesn't Christianity as well? Whether you believe you go straight to heaven, or whether you believe in TWI-styled "falling asleep but waking up when Christ comes back" doctrine, Christianity attempts to rationalize death and claims to have a work-around. The concepts of Heaven and Hell are not all that different from everything from the ancient Egyptians to the Buddhists to the Muslims to anything else. No religion claims that you will not die and can honestly prove that.
Why not? If he made us, then we are exactly what he wants us to be. Why should self-depreciation be part of a religion like Christianity when it flies in the face of creationism?
How do you know this? How can you prove it?
The same as before, what evidence is there of the Christian god's existance, and if you can prove that, what evidence do you have of his goodness and gentleness?
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George Aar
Well, we've been up and down this road before, haven't we?
The difficult part of this dialog is that there is a disconnect between the believer and the skeptic. There is a certain point in the believer's mind beyond which he will not go, for to tread in that territory would put at risk all he has come to hold dear for all the years of his "believing" stature.
I know as a Christian I would never entertain the thought that the Bible could be anything but GOD'S WORD . For to do so would raise all kinds of questions I just wasn't ready to face. Not terribly difficult questions, ones like Oak and Mosh have already raised, and a few others.
That is where the disconnect comes in. The skeptic has no problem venturing into those forbidden topics, because he has no fear of finding out something he doesn't want to. The believer, OTOH, risks his very identity. So the skeptic can ask all those type of questions he wants, but the believer, IMHO, will forever be playing a game of obfuscating, spinning, and twisting the facts - I think often, unconsciously - in order not to upset his accepted mythology.
I know personally that intellectual dishonesy was where I lived throughout my tenure as a "Christian".
Maybe I'm the only one?
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sky4it
oakspear:
Okay sky, I don't doubt your experience; but do you think that your subjective experience is superior to the experience of a non-Christian, and if so, why?
Here is why that I understand that faith in Christ is the chosen plan. In order to have my experience validated you must have faith, (you have heard that), faith is simply an interest, a respect for his majesty in my eyes. Without a pure heart, you cannot enter into the presence of the Almighty. In my quest it has been validated in this method, so that it is objective (my experience) to me not subjective.
I realize my experince does you little good other than to describe a path I know that works.
If a person mingles adultry , fornication and wickedness with an attempt to know God, one will only come up confused. One cannot come to God on thier terms, they must come to him oh his terms. This is the meaning of the word believe. Believe encompasses encompasses a value that believes that what that person does for me, is better than what I can do myself for me. This is the essence (IMO) of the Christian faith.
I do not become a lessor sinner because of myself. I am changed by beholding his face. The things is hes and his attributes become gradually a facet of my life.
Throughout this process the concept of competing Gods to me is utter foolishness. Certainly I could give you personal illustrations as "proof", but I think "proof" of ones faith is individual, because you would be less prone to believe a personal illustration than you would the method I think faith is validated.
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sky4it
oakspear see above
George:
The difficult part of this dialog is that there is a disconnect between the believer and the skeptic. There is a certain point in the believer's mind beyond which he will not go, for to tread in that territory would put at risk all he has come to hold dear for all the years of his "believing" stature.
You know what tho George that has never been so with me. I not talking about the difference between skeptic and believer tho. I have found that over the course of time what I believe becomes modified the more I know the Lord.
This is best served with an illustration. I used to think the Wrath of God was inconsistent with a loving God and I was uncertain how to reconcile the two. It made me somewhat fearful of taking a wrong turn, then thinking anything bad happening to me was the wrath thing. My view on this has deeply changed. I now see the wrath of God as simply God walking away and leaving man to his own self. Self destruction would ensue. When does God walk away? When (I think) he has tried every thing possible to set the road straight in a mans life. This is consistent with love also, for God could not be "righteous" if he enabled man to be "wicked."
I find myself in much more freedom these days, knowing God is not standing with a chip on his shoulder for any vice I may have. It makes it more of a "partnership" than it does a I am scared chitless thing.
I realize I strayed off the beaten path of your topic. But I think it necessary, for there have been times I was clueless as to what he was doing, only to find out later, that he had a very valid reason for doing what he did. My point is simply that I believe if there is something within us that is harmful, God will challenge our faith to enlarge it. If I didnt live this way on a daily basis, I would be frustrated and "skeptical" of what he is doing.
I think some skeptism is healthy. I think God delights in the opportunity to change our skeptism into stronger faith. Noticeably in the gospels, faith is tested and becomes gold, silver or brass. Therefore the quality of it can be modified. It is also eternal, and one thing that we can take with us.
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George Aar
But Sky,
But, you haven't given us anything. You're still believing it because you do.
I know lots of people who have widely disparate views when it comes to theology. I knew a girl who was absolutely convinced that astrology was God's way of communicating with man. I have a very good friend who's certain that the priest at his temple (he's a Buddhist) can levitate at will (though he's never actually SEEN him do it), I have friends (ex-Wayfers) who are WAY off into "apocalyptic Christian" movement (I REALLY don't get that). I also know several Mormons, a Muslim or two, and a JW.
These folks are all as convinced as you (it would seem) as to the veracity of their particular belief system. Yet, they cannot all be right if you are(and vice versa), can they?
People believe all sorts of stuff. And there are absolute, sold-out zealots in just about every religion you can think of. Every bit as convinced of the rightness of their faith (and the wrongness of everyone elses) as you seem to be. How can you be so sure you're not just deluding yourself? Somebody someplace must be, no?
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sky4it
Geo:
Your comment:
These folks are all as convinced as you (it would seem) as to the veracity of their particular belief system. Yet, they cannot all be right if you are(and vice versa), can they?
People believe all sorts of stuff. And there are absolute, sold-out zealots in just about every religion you can think of. Every bit as convinced of the rightness of their faith (and the wrongness of everyone elses) as you seem to be. How can you be so sure you're not just deluding yourself? Somebody someplace must be, no?
First, Geo, I am not absolutely convinced of the veracity of my particular belief system. Niether does is bother me. Why? Because I am persuaded that God is more concerned about his relationship with me than he is particular sets of doctinal beliefs.
It is God that works in me that I focus on. I am persuaded beyond doubt that this is the way God would have it. It is my faith the Lord focus's on. This is real. This is simple.
Hell, Geo, I have a JW friend too. He tries to convert me everytime I have dinner at his place.
Where does he lose me? When he starts throwing the Greek towel around like thats more important than my personal relationship with Christ thats where. I have been in and out of at least 9 different Christian groups all with varying sets of doctrines. I could give a hoot about most of it. Why? Because most doctrines dont have any basis in ordinary day to day living and how that plays out. Like the rapture and the Virgin Mary and creeds, they dont save me, so why be hamstrung by it.
I dont think I am preaching a set of beliefs either. All I need is Christ, and I know that he was crucified.
There is an interesting story that I want to tell you:
Richard Wurmbrand a jailed Lutheran minister in communist Romania tells this story. There was a man who was jailed and beaten in the severe communist days. He had always been told that God did not exist according to communist ideology. After years of torture , he began to cry out to God to help him if he existed. The prison guards heard his crys. In order to torment him even more, some guards took a bible and ripped out a few small words of it and gave it to him. The words said, " And the Lord said to Jeremiah". Upon hearing that, that man said, if the Lord can speak to this man Jeremiah surely he can speak too me. Upon saying that he was filled with the Holy Ghost, having known nothing about the teachings of Christ. Doctrine? What doctrine did he have.
My point is simply that we cannot limit the almighty and why should we? All I want is to know him and that is a good enough "doctrine" for me.
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Mike
sky4it,
I’m sorry I ran out of time and haven’t been able to read much of your discussion with George. Maybe later. All of the following I was writing while those posts were appearing.
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Mike
George Aar,
You wrote: “I know as a Christian I would never entertain the thought that the Bible could be anything but GOD'S WORD . For to do so would raise all kinds of questions I just wasn't ready to face. Not terribly difficult questions, ones like Oak and Mosh have already raised, and a few others.â€
I agree. It is this very thing, this very scary thing, that I am dealing with as I present my Table of Challenge on the Masters thread. In his last Way Magazine writing Dr TWICE challenged us to face these kinds of questions.
You wrote(with my bold font): ‘That is where the disconnect comes in. The skeptic has no problem venturing into those forbidden topics, because he has no fear of finding out something he doesn't want to. The believer, OTOH, risks his very identity. So the skeptic can ask all those type of questions he wants, but the believer, IMHO, will forever be playing a game of obfuscating, spinning, and twisting the facts - I think often, unconsciously - in order not to upset his accepted mythology.â€
Again I agree, except with the “forever†part. Some believers have taken up this challenge, but most run and hide.
It is no wonder to me that skeptics like Oakspear and Abigail have been the most able to see some crucial aspects of my Table of Challenge. When I find the time I’ll get back to elucidating this, but that’s another thread.
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Mike
Mister P-Mosh,
You wrote: “Pretty much all religions claim to have an afterlife though, but there are none that have produced actual immortals walking around here that we can prove exist.â€
There are two points under discussion: (1)the claim, and (2)the truth of the claim. My focus is on the former right now.
All religions claim to have an afterlife, and death is the door to that afterlife. Therefore death is a friend. “You won’t REALLY die, you’ll be floating around up there smoking 50 dollar cigars.â€
All religions, starting with Eve’s, try to befriend death in one way or another. Their claim is that death is not as bad as it looks. You get to go somewhere new, or get to be reincarcerated back here. The Bible is unique in that it declares death an enemy and NOT a door to anything but a dirt nap.
Now, the proof of the truth behind that claim comes much later. That takes much more than debate and thought. It takes growing up in a relationship with God, and He presents the proof to us that we cannot present to ourselves.
***
You wrote regarding rationalizing death: “Doesn't Christianity as well? Whether you believe you go straight to heaven, or whether you believe in TWI-styled "falling asleep but waking up when Christ comes back" doctrine, Christianity attempts to rationalize death and claims to have a work-around.â€
It’s one thing to say that God has a “work-around†but it’s another thing to say that He invented it. Actually, I’d use stronger language and say that God and Jesus Christ have utterly destroyed the inventor of death along with his invention, as Hebrews 2:14 declares. This is a bold stand and a unique claim. Man-made religions cast God, the Creator of life, into the role of death’s inventor. They portray death as an integral part of the cosmic machinery, and something man needs to learn to like.
Remember the context of this thread is Oakspear’s question: what makes Christianity unique? The answer is Christianity’s stand against the enemy death, claiming it to be contrary to God’s will. The proof of the claim is a totally different subject.
***
I had written: “...without God's grace and mercy and power to FREELY give us eternal life, there'd be NO WAY any of us could be allowed into God's presence.â€
Then you responded with: “Why not? If he made us, then we are exactly what he wants us to be. Why should self-depreciation be part of a religion like Christianity when it flies in the face of creationism?â€
God did not make us, that is US us. We were made by our parents, mostly our mothers.
God formed, made and created man in the beginning, but then “we†were re-made, not in God’s image, but I the adversary’s. Man lost spirit and has needed a re-connect ever since.
We are NOT born “exactly what he [God] wants us to be.†We are born only two thirds of what He wants us to be. The rebellions of Lucifer and Adam do indeed fly “in the face of creationism†because God allows freedom of will, wills other than His own.
It’s not a false self-depreciation to recognize that there is are genuine problems like death and sin. It IS a false self-aggrandizement to think that humans don’t really die and have god-like thought patterns. This is, of course, the very first lie recorded in the Bible.
***
How do I know He loved me first? How can I prove it? I can’t prove it TO YOU in my own words, but I can allow God to prove it TO ME by focusing my attention on His Word.
The same process will work for you if you go through those same motions and focus on the same things (accurately).
If you want prior proof from me or anyone else in words you’re not going to get it.
All I can give you is the reason why I focused on this accurate Christianity (presented best in PFAL) above others. That reason is the unique claim of Christianity and the unique God who invented it.
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Oakspear
What I'm seeing so far is:
"I like what Christianity says/teaches, it lines up with the way I think things should be"
rather than
"I see convincing evidence, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that Christianity is true"
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sky4it
Oakspear:
I dont know if you read my comments to you above.
Your comment:
"I see convincing evidence, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that Christianity is true"
I have that evidence with one exception, I had to have faith first.
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CoolWaters
Oak,
I'm going to interject my thoughts here...not because I would be considered "christian" or because I consider myself "christian"...but because I know Jesus...probably as intimately (if not more so) than many "christians".
As you know, I dumped what passes for "christianity" a couple of years ago once I realized that it was all mental tricks, I decided that this particular trip was "do or die...and if you do, you'll die anyway...but hopefully you'll rise again...and if you don't, then my superiority gives me the right to wish (or actually help...if I'm serving mah kahntree in that thar holy war) you to die."
But what about this Jesus thing?
Hmmm. Well, no matter what path I walked along, I met this entity known as Jesus. He was to me what is known in other circles as a familiar. He guided me, comforted me, discussed things with me and laughed with me.
So is this entity the Jesus of the bible? Who knows? If twi were still my path, I'd think this was that devil spurt false jeezus. But alas, twi doesn't know squat about the real Jesus, so why trust that thinking?
Do I believe this Jesus was crucified? Yes. He isn't the only person to have ever been crucified.
Do I believe he was raised from the dead? Yes. Being raised from the dead is no longer the miracle it was back in the day.
Do I believe he ascended? Yes. He's not the only master that followers speak of ascending.
Is he my lord? Yes. In the truest sense of the word...which is bread giver and protector.
Does that make me a christian? I dunno. I don't care anymore...for in the end, all paths teach the same thing.
To me, the staunch black and white lines drawn in the religious sands are there for those who don't really know for sure...no matter what path one follows.
If a person cannot honestly let go of their beliefs and consider an option to their understanding, it is because they know their understanding is flawed.
IMO...
That said, however, I have learned that it is not wise to shake a person's belief system. The universe has its own ways...one should let the universe work.
IMO...
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karmicdebt
I'll take "The Middle Path" for 100, Alex...
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Oakspear
sky:
Yes, I read your statement, I had to re-read it, though, to understand your point.
I stand by my previous position:
I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with that, or that you should be offering me "proof" of any kind. You say that you saw "convincing evidense" of Christianity's truth. But only after you decided to "take it on faith". Again, I see nothing necessarily wrong with that stance.My point is that my subjective experience is just as valid as your subjective experience. My position is not that Christianity is wrong, or in any way inferior, just that it's not self-evidently true. In other words, there is nothing about it that a disinterested, objective observer could look at that would lead one to believe that it was necessarily the one true faith.
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ckeer
Oak- In reading this thread I realize I have a different perspective from you on this. Let me try and explain it.
I am going to talk in terms of individuals rather than groups because I believe that no two individuals can have exactly the beliefs. Even if they are both Skeptics or Christians
First I think you are right when you say “it all comes down to a subjective experience, feelings, trust, faith, all that;†I believe everyone’s belief system is a result of their life experiences- starting at birth- what they were taught- primarily by example and then how it actually worked in their life. It seems that a basic human need is to understand the universe and the self’s relation in order to survive and thrive. The process of “understanding†the lessons of life is what forms each individuals belief system. The result at least for me is that I don’t feel that I can tell you when or why I decided to be a “Christian†I just know that I am. I also can’t tell you when I choose to be a male, be born in the USA to my parents etc. etc. etc.
-I have done what the bible said and got the expected results.
-I have prayed and gotten answers many times.
-I feel that God talks to and inspires me to Godly actions.
These have only confirmed or reinforced my “faith†they are not the reason for it. Perhaps it is the Bible being proved right in that God chose me before the beginning, and having faith first allowed my to have these experiences or perhaps it is pure coincidence. I don’t know- I also don’t care, because I don’t think it is possible to determine which is right at this time. Perhaps after I die it will.
So I also can’t tell you that my belief system is superior to any other persons. I recognize that their beliefs are a product of their individual attempt to understand and control their own lives. The same as mine is.
However I think that from my perspective it makes my belief in Christianity self evidently superior- to me and for me.
However I also recognize that almost all people assume that theirs is the only true and valid belief system. (I know mine is for me- I suspect yours is for you or you would not have started this thread)
:)-->
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TheManOfa Thousand ScreenNames
Well, Oak, maybe it's not unlike Schroedinger's cat. Until you open the box, (i.e., die) you won't know if you were right or not. And, until you open the box, your beliefs are right and wrong at the same time
:D-->
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Oakspear
ckeer:
Actually, I'm still formulating my belief system, but when I'm done, I'm sure it will be the one true faith
;)--> - you guys will be the first to know 
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ckeer
Oak- Belief systems are a work in progress for most of us.
I also think that our belief systems are much more a product of how well our earlier belief systems survived and explained the randomness and chaos of life than a product of "rational thought and choice".
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