I once met someone who was convinced he had a miraculous "power" over street lights. They would often dim or go out as he approached in his car. Uncanny! Why, oh why, couldn't he put this fantastic power to better use? What was God trying to tell him?
Kidding. Lots of street lights have photo-sensitive switches that turn them on around dusk. If they aren't properly adjusted, your headlights could affect them. It never occurred to him, and I didn't spoil it for him either.
I have no idea what is a miracle and what is not. Something may have the quality of the "miraculous," or it may not, and if there are miracles, that quality may be as misleading as it seems a certain proof.
A coincidence could seem miraculous, but I wouldn't assign any significance to it. But a series of them, each related in some way, as if directed by some divine stagecraft, does get my attention.
Consistent patterns get my attention, where unrelated, external events (beyond my control or influence) seem "directed" by the same unseen director, evidenced by inexplicable similarities. Maybe I'll post an example later on.
Patterns and anomalies (the exceptions to patterns) should both catch our attention. Most of the time, they instruct us about the world around us. Occasionally, they contradict everything we think we know. I wouldn't make them the basis for a religion, but they do teach me to keep an open mind.
well the so called "law of believing" was completely in step (if not appropriated) from 50s pop psychology (Earl Nightingale "The Strangest Secret, Norman Vincent Peale, Maxwell Maltz) where postive thinking was promoted widely as a cure-all for many ills. I suppose that postive thinking *does* help to an extent but VPW tried to weave it into "the word" and make it a "foundational" teaching of PFAL. It was one of the first things taught and one of the first things that I saw that didn't work
which is why the concept of "negative believing" was tpyically pointed to as the cause for things not coming to pass. The
MOG could always blame you for not havig
your believing up to snuff. "Don't blame God
for your lack of believing".
Obviously bad things can happen to good people and vice-versa so the would be know-it-all preacher who would try to explain it always comes out of it looking foolish because you can always find a counter-example. Even the mighty VPW couldn't "believe" his way out of cancer even though lots of way followers were berated for having less severe maladies.
In terms of miracles - well frankly I do believe in them. I don't think they happen very often nor do I think they need to be accompanined by some wild visual effects or some event with an epic quality. But when something happens that is just so dead on and all things appear to align to accomplish something its a mind blower. On the other hand I've seen the reverse be true - when things just start going down hill and other things just start going to hell right along with it.
Tough to explain and I don't think there is a single answer really...
I got a gift like that. When I was 17 (Memorial day weekend 1971) I'd spent all day at a 12 hour long rock concert. It was at the Detroit fairgrounds. As we were leaving we (me and a friend) walked ten feet behind 3 people walking together. My friend knew Detroit better than me and he says wait a minute we're going the wrong way. So we stop to formulate a plan.
About 20 seconds later a car driven by an extremely stoned person goes off the street and on to the sidewalk and stops dead inches behind the three walking together. Nobody was hurt. Several people immediately surrounded the car and in a sort of community spirit someone was found who drove for this guy so he didn't have to drive anymore and didn't get busted, but if me and my friend had kept walking we'd be dead.
It was eerie.
I don't know if it was a sign, miracle, wonder, or guardian angel, but I believe something was up. Sure, it's possible the guy had just enough coherency to summon the strength to stop if he saw those people, but he looked pretty out of it. I also know that 2 people died at the Altamont speedway concert from which that movie 'Gimme Shelter' was made because a stoned driver ran them over while they slept off the road in sleeping bags. But, yeah. 'Gift' works for me.
I don't know about you, but I do believe in 'karma." What one gives, seems to come back just when it's needed.
Without waxing philisophical, I do believe that one's good deeds, or kind intentions, no matter how small or insignificant, can somehow bounce back and to us, and look like a "miracle."
Maybe it ain't christian, i don't know, but i beleive it. :)-->
I dunno. I see plenty of arguments against a "karmic" form of universal justice walking around. There are also plenty of arguments for an unjust universe.
That's not to say there is no mechanism to reward good behavior. It's only to say, if there is, there may be other mechanisms too, some amoral, some immoral, some evil.
Some take a view that if one life doesn't work out, you'll have plenty of others to even it up. Others believe an afterlife of another kind will even up the score.
I can't testify to the truth of either view because I can neither remember past lives nor forsee any to come.
I just can't look around and believe in an utterly random universe, just as I can't believe in one which obeys the moral priorities of a benevolent Creator, as defined by any of the popular religions.
The so-called "law of believing" was twi's way of explaining why some folks had it good and others had it bad...of course there is no such law...
therefore...are we to assume that God is partial towards some folks? Some really good folks get the .... end of the stick while the wicked thrive...you pray for somebody and they recover...what about the 10 you prayed for and they died? Miracles? Maybe when something "unusually good" happens, you call it a miracle...maybe it is, but what do you call it when something "unusually bad" happens?
I believe there is a God, but I question how much control He has of events in this "free will" world that He set in motion.
Is there any difference between a miracle and a miraculous event?
Sure there is, keeds.
I believe in miraculous events, because I've been a witness to them. They may be unique, isolated incidents, and they may be patterns or trends.
A "miracle" is the act of God, in my book. I don't know about those. I guess it could be by "supernatural" agents on behalf of God, like angels. I don't know about them either.
The things I don't know, I am as equally foolish to deny as I am to affirm them. I simply don't know.
So, to call something a miracle is to imply I know what's behind it, regardless of how shallow that "knowledge" might be.
To call something "miraculous" however, is to say - "This is just too unlikely to explain away as a fortunate (or unfortunate) bit of randomness." Most often, it is when an unlikely situation or event repeats persistently, and unlike the example of automatic street lights, it isn't so easily explained away.
Miraculous means having the character, or appearance of, or resemblance to a miracle. It is decidely and obviously not among the ordinary anomalies we experience now and then. It does not mean it IS a miracle. Only that it is in no way, shape or form "ordinary."
An old TWI friend of mine recounted the following story... Driving in Virginia, in a VW van with no registration, no licence, and a bunch of empty beer bottles on the floor. Comes up over a hill and there's a state patrol traffic stop for license and registration and gets waved through without getting stopped...
Reading a lot of these posts remind me of an old Beverly Hillbillys episode- old granny had some kind of "miracle" cold cure. Made with molasses, sulphur, etc. etc.. the docs were really interested until Jed said something like, "sure a miracle cure. Why, you take this stuff, and within about six weeks you'll feel like a spring chicken".
Just because someone appears to have it good and the universe is being unjustly kind to them, doesn't necessarily mean that's so. We don't know what goes on in the dark recesses of one's mind or life that we aren't exposed to.
Just because someone appears to be unjustly treated by the universe doesn't mean there aren't situations and consequences that we aren't aware of.
I, too, believe in karma, ex10. ;)--> I don't know if it works all the time, only in my own particular life and even then, I'm sometimes pleasantly surprised or extremely challenged and lately, I'm more cognizant of how I handle those challenges and expect that if I do it right and just that it will come back to me. So far, it's been working. :)-->
Belle- that does say a lot.. they may "appear" to have it good, and the universe unjustly being kind. Some folks I know have enough money and property to throw away. While I would like da money, I would NOT want their problems. Makes me glad to have what I've got..
Plus the fact that we are usually too close to a situation to look at it in an unbiased light.
That and we are generally really poor at comprehending what the "odds" are for certain outcomes. I forget the exact numbers now, but IIRC the probability of two people in a group sharing the same birthday approaches almost certainty when there's as few as 25 or so people gathered. Intuitively, I think most would assume a much higher number...
I forget the exact numbers now, but IIRC the probability of two people in a group sharing the same birthday approaches almost certainty when there's as few as 25 or so people gathered. Intuitively, I think most would assume a much higher number...
Yes that is correct and the birthday example is typically employed by statistics professors in introductory courses to educate students to the reality that many processes and occurrences are related and perhaps follow some model which allows for predictability. go here for an explanation
If 23 people are in the room then its a 50% probability that two people share the same bday. At 32% its 75% and if there are 57 people in the room then it shoots up to %99 !
Still I claim to have experienced a miracle (or maybe two) but thats about it as far as I'm concerned. For most, "miracle" seems to imply a divine intervention or the work of some unseen force though it doesn't have to be that. Encountering a set of circumstances that works to the benefit of a given individual could be characterized as mere statistics at work though , from my point of view, I might still exerience it as a miracle while leaving the religious types to ponder what I did (or didn't do) to deserve it.
I dunno. I see plenty of arguments against a "karmic" form of universal justice walking around. There are also plenty of arguments for an unjust universe.
About 20 yrs ago I was an asst mgr at a fast food chain. Several of us asst mgrs were at a meeting about our computer system. The man making the presentation said that rule#1 about computers is that they're dumb. They only do what they're programmed to do and if you start entertaining the idea that they're deliberately playing mind games with you, then you'll drive yourself nuts.
I see a parallel here. Trying to figure out how God/ the universe / the law of believing / karma, etc. is going to help or neglect you might well also cause you to drive yourself nuts.
I believe in God. I believe he's kind to all, he sometimes gets directly involved in my life, I pray, etc. but I do NOT get hung up over results or the lack of them. Bob Dylan said it well: "You think He's just some 'errand boy' to satisfy your wandering desires?"
I lived with a believer for 3 yrs awhile back. He had financial aspirations. Once he tried to make something happen and it didn't pan out. He bitterly ranted, "I TRUSTED God to be my sufficiency!!!" Fast forward 25 yrs. Today this guy still believes in God and still has financial aspirations and has realized some of his financial dreams. Doesn't live in a penthouse, but is doing well. Most of his results have been from simple hard work and not giving up.
But I really believe people can become overly concerned with knowing how they rate with the extra terrestrial or whatever. Not necessarily you, Satori, I used your quote because I thought it covered the subject.
The big difference between God and Karma, as I see it, is that believers in the Christian God believe that he wrote a book with plenty of information about himself. It says in the book that God is their sufficiency. I guess you have to figure out what that means :D-->.
With karma, there is no supreme being who told anyone "there is such a thing as karma and here's how it works", rather some folks have come up with the idea based on their perceptions of how things work.
But I do agree with you that people can and do become overly concerned about how they can get God or karma or whatever to work in their favor, or tip the odds their way.
My "quote," as I wrote it, has nothing to do with your point, johniam.
My point was that the just and the unjust alike prosper or suffer, regardless of their virtues and vices. It would seem to contradict the idea of karma. Then again, what they did in their "past lives" is probably the explanation for some. Not for me.
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satori001
I once met someone who was convinced he had a miraculous "power" over street lights. They would often dim or go out as he approached in his car. Uncanny! Why, oh why, couldn't he put this fantastic power to better use? What was God trying to tell him?
Kidding. Lots of street lights have photo-sensitive switches that turn them on around dusk. If they aren't properly adjusted, your headlights could affect them. It never occurred to him, and I didn't spoil it for him either.
I have no idea what is a miracle and what is not. Something may have the quality of the "miraculous," or it may not, and if there are miracles, that quality may be as misleading as it seems a certain proof.
A coincidence could seem miraculous, but I wouldn't assign any significance to it. But a series of them, each related in some way, as if directed by some divine stagecraft, does get my attention.
Consistent patterns get my attention, where unrelated, external events (beyond my control or influence) seem "directed" by the same unseen director, evidenced by inexplicable similarities. Maybe I'll post an example later on.
Patterns and anomalies (the exceptions to patterns) should both catch our attention. Most of the time, they instruct us about the world around us. Occasionally, they contradict everything we think we know. I wouldn't make them the basis for a religion, but they do teach me to keep an open mind.
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diazbro
well the so called "law of believing" was completely in step (if not appropriated) from 50s pop psychology (Earl Nightingale "The Strangest Secret, Norman Vincent Peale, Maxwell Maltz) where postive thinking was promoted widely as a cure-all for many ills. I suppose that postive thinking *does* help to an extent but VPW tried to weave it into "the word" and make it a "foundational" teaching of PFAL. It was one of the first things taught and one of the first things that I saw that didn't work
which is why the concept of "negative believing" was tpyically pointed to as the cause for things not coming to pass. The
MOG could always blame you for not havig
your believing up to snuff. "Don't blame God
for your lack of believing".
Obviously bad things can happen to good people and vice-versa so the would be know-it-all preacher who would try to explain it always comes out of it looking foolish because you can always find a counter-example. Even the mighty VPW couldn't "believe" his way out of cancer even though lots of way followers were berated for having less severe maladies.
In terms of miracles - well frankly I do believe in them. I don't think they happen very often nor do I think they need to be accompanined by some wild visual effects or some event with an epic quality. But when something happens that is just so dead on and all things appear to align to accomplish something its a mind blower. On the other hand I've seen the reverse be true - when things just start going down hill and other things just start going to hell right along with it.
Tough to explain and I don't think there is a single answer really...
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satori001
ex10,
You could be right.
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satori001
laleo,
Glad you enjoyed it.
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johniam
I got a gift like that. When I was 17 (Memorial day weekend 1971) I'd spent all day at a 12 hour long rock concert. It was at the Detroit fairgrounds. As we were leaving we (me and a friend) walked ten feet behind 3 people walking together. My friend knew Detroit better than me and he says wait a minute we're going the wrong way. So we stop to formulate a plan.
About 20 seconds later a car driven by an extremely stoned person goes off the street and on to the sidewalk and stops dead inches behind the three walking together. Nobody was hurt. Several people immediately surrounded the car and in a sort of community spirit someone was found who drove for this guy so he didn't have to drive anymore and didn't get busted, but if me and my friend had kept walking we'd be dead.
It was eerie.
I don't know if it was a sign, miracle, wonder, or guardian angel, but I believe something was up. Sure, it's possible the guy had just enough coherency to summon the strength to stop if he saw those people, but he looked pretty out of it. I also know that 2 people died at the Altamont speedway concert from which that movie 'Gimme Shelter' was made because a stoned driver ran them over while they slept off the road in sleeping bags. But, yeah. 'Gift' works for me.
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ex10
satori
I don't know about you, but I do believe in 'karma." What one gives, seems to come back just when it's needed.
Without waxing philisophical, I do believe that one's good deeds, or kind intentions, no matter how small or insignificant, can somehow bounce back and to us, and look like a "miracle."
Maybe it ain't christian, i don't know, but i beleive it.
:)-->
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satori001
I dunno. I see plenty of arguments against a "karmic" form of universal justice walking around. There are also plenty of arguments for an unjust universe.
That's not to say there is no mechanism to reward good behavior. It's only to say, if there is, there may be other mechanisms too, some amoral, some immoral, some evil.
Some take a view that if one life doesn't work out, you'll have plenty of others to even it up. Others believe an afterlife of another kind will even up the score.
I can't testify to the truth of either view because I can neither remember past lives nor forsee any to come.
I just can't look around and believe in an utterly random universe, just as I can't believe in one which obeys the moral priorities of a benevolent Creator, as defined by any of the popular religions.
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GrouchoMarxJr
The so-called "law of believing" was twi's way of explaining why some folks had it good and others had it bad...of course there is no such law...
therefore...are we to assume that God is partial towards some folks? Some really good folks get the .... end of the stick while the wicked thrive...you pray for somebody and they recover...what about the 10 you prayed for and they died? Miracles? Maybe when something "unusually good" happens, you call it a miracle...maybe it is, but what do you call it when something "unusually bad" happens?
I believe there is a God, but I question how much control He has of events in this "free will" world that He set in motion.
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satori001
Is there any difference between a miracle and a miraculous event?
Sure there is, keeds.
I believe in miraculous events, because I've been a witness to them. They may be unique, isolated incidents, and they may be patterns or trends.
A "miracle" is the act of God, in my book. I don't know about those. I guess it could be by "supernatural" agents on behalf of God, like angels. I don't know about them either.
The things I don't know, I am as equally foolish to deny as I am to affirm them. I simply don't know.
So, to call something a miracle is to imply I know what's behind it, regardless of how shallow that "knowledge" might be.
To call something "miraculous" however, is to say - "This is just too unlikely to explain away as a fortunate (or unfortunate) bit of randomness." Most often, it is when an unlikely situation or event repeats persistently, and unlike the example of automatic street lights, it isn't so easily explained away.
Miraculous means having the character, or appearance of, or resemblance to a miracle. It is decidely and obviously not among the ordinary anomalies we experience now and then. It does not mean it IS a miracle. Only that it is in no way, shape or form "ordinary."
How ordinary is this world of ours, anyway?
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Jim
"Gracing out"
An old TWI friend of mine recounted the following story... Driving in Virginia, in a VW van with no registration, no licence, and a bunch of empty beer bottles on the floor. Comes up over a hill and there's a state patrol traffic stop for license and registration and gets waved through without getting stopped...
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satori001
He must have been riding with Obi-wan.
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Ham
"may the farce be with ya". heh heh..
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Ham
Reading a lot of these posts remind me of an old Beverly Hillbillys episode- old granny had some kind of "miracle" cold cure. Made with molasses, sulphur, etc. etc.. the docs were really interested until Jed said something like, "sure a miracle cure. Why, you take this stuff, and within about six weeks you'll feel like a spring chicken".
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Ham
"works EVERY time" heh heh.
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Belle
Just because someone appears to have it good and the universe is being unjustly kind to them, doesn't necessarily mean that's so. We don't know what goes on in the dark recesses of one's mind or life that we aren't exposed to.
Just because someone appears to be unjustly treated by the universe doesn't mean there aren't situations and consequences that we aren't aware of.
I, too, believe in karma, ex10.
;)--> I don't know if it works all the time, only in my own particular life and even then, I'm sometimes pleasantly surprised or extremely challenged and lately, I'm more cognizant of how I handle those challenges and expect that if I do it right and just that it will come back to me. So far, it's been working. 
:)-->
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Ham
Belle- that does say a lot.. they may "appear" to have it good, and the universe unjustly being kind. Some folks I know have enough money and property to throw away. While I would like da money, I would NOT want their problems. Makes me glad to have what I've got..
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George Aar
Plus the fact that we are usually too close to a situation to look at it in an unbiased light.
That and we are generally really poor at comprehending what the "odds" are for certain outcomes. I forget the exact numbers now, but IIRC the probability of two people in a group sharing the same birthday approaches almost certainty when there's as few as 25 or so people gathered. Intuitively, I think most would assume a much higher number...
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diazbro
Yes that is correct and the birthday example is typically employed by statistics professors in introductory courses to educate students to the reality that many processes and occurrences are related and perhaps follow some model which allows for predictability. go here for an explanation
http://www.kwansei.ac.jp/hs/z90010/english...obi/tanjyou.htm
If 23 people are in the room then its a 50% probability that two people share the same bday. At 32% its 75% and if there are 57 people in the room then it shoots up to %99 !
Still I claim to have experienced a miracle (or maybe two) but thats about it as far as I'm concerned. For most, "miracle" seems to imply a divine intervention or the work of some unseen force though it doesn't have to be that. Encountering a set of circumstances that works to the benefit of a given individual could be characterized as mere statistics at work though , from my point of view, I might still exerience it as a miracle while leaving the religious types to ponder what I did (or didn't do) to deserve it.
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johniam
About 20 yrs ago I was an asst mgr at a fast food chain. Several of us asst mgrs were at a meeting about our computer system. The man making the presentation said that rule#1 about computers is that they're dumb. They only do what they're programmed to do and if you start entertaining the idea that they're deliberately playing mind games with you, then you'll drive yourself nuts.
I see a parallel here. Trying to figure out how God/ the universe / the law of believing / karma, etc. is going to help or neglect you might well also cause you to drive yourself nuts.
I believe in God. I believe he's kind to all, he sometimes gets directly involved in my life, I pray, etc. but I do NOT get hung up over results or the lack of them. Bob Dylan said it well: "You think He's just some 'errand boy' to satisfy your wandering desires?"
I lived with a believer for 3 yrs awhile back. He had financial aspirations. Once he tried to make something happen and it didn't pan out. He bitterly ranted, "I TRUSTED God to be my sufficiency!!!" Fast forward 25 yrs. Today this guy still believes in God and still has financial aspirations and has realized some of his financial dreams. Doesn't live in a penthouse, but is doing well. Most of his results have been from simple hard work and not giving up.
But I really believe people can become overly concerned with knowing how they rate with the extra terrestrial or whatever. Not necessarily you, Satori, I used your quote because I thought it covered the subject.
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Oakspear
Johniam:
The big difference between God and Karma, as I see it, is that believers in the Christian God believe that he wrote a book with plenty of information about himself. It says in the book that God is their sufficiency. I guess you have to figure out what that means
:D-->.
With karma, there is no supreme being who told anyone "there is such a thing as karma and here's how it works", rather some folks have come up with the idea based on their perceptions of how things work.
But I do agree with you that people can and do become overly concerned about how they can get God or karma or whatever to work in their favor, or tip the odds their way.
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satori001
My "quote," as I wrote it, has nothing to do with your point, johniam.
My point was that the just and the unjust alike prosper or suffer, regardless of their virtues and vices. It would seem to contradict the idea of karma. Then again, what they did in their "past lives" is probably the explanation for some. Not for me.
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