2) its the winning over death, the putting on a body that will never die again
3) Its having the seed of Christ in you and knowing that you will be born unto a new body that will never die of light and truth
4) Its knowing that now you need God like a unborn child needs its mother until its born and old enought to stand along side of its mother ( the day we are known as we know)
5) Not being judge by works but be justified
by love of God in your heart
6) its knowing you will live forever
7) its trusting what Jesus Christ did for us
you believing is nothing until you trust things to be so or its the trust that gives it its action
8) its never giving up on truth no matter what others say or do because we know that we are going to be born into incorruption or immortality and this is the new birth day
now we are just a child inside the belly of God by the seed of Christ waiting to the day of birth the return of Christ
that all I can say I am sure others can say it better
quote:O.K., so I'm a cynical A-hole, so what else is new?
George, LOL! You have a point though. If someone is promoting God to get money, they are using God as an empty guarantee. I think about how many times I "believed" and nothing came to pass.
"Saved from what?!?!?!?" was the thing I screamed out to whoever was listening.
Death? Who cares? After some of the things in life I've lived with, death isn't a big threat.
Eternal damnation? Thanks, but I'm just about to earn the T-shirt.
Sickness? Poverty? Fear? Bondage? Nope, nope, nope and nope. These things are a reality now regardless of the "being saved" status.
For 2 years I had no answer to the question.
Then my granddaughter's life was turned upside down when her father was arrested on 3 felony counts of rape of a minor under 14 and 2 felony counts of indecent sexual liberties with a minor under 14.
It became very clear that it's not always saved from something...it's often saved for something.
There's nobody better than me in this whole world to help my granddaughter through right now. (That's not arrogance...that's knowing at least part of what I was saved for...)
There are some subtle nuances in the words “saved” and “salvation” that often slip by people. Not only are the exact Biblical usages of these words lost in modern paramedic nomenclature, but the idea of salvation with or without works is pretty scrambled in there too.
In religious circles “salvation” is an extreme buzz word, which most pretend to understand, but few ever ask about it like you did.
Unscrambling this topic starts with a more complete definition of "salvation" as it pertains to the three categories of body, soul, and spirit. Salvation is a context sensitive word, and it depends which category is under discussion: body, soul, or spirit.
*******
SPIRIT
Salvation means to be made whole. To a being of body and soul only, receiving spirit is to be made WHOLE. This type of salvation wholeness is free, no works required.
In Ephesians it says we were saved by grace UNTO good works. We got the free holy spirit seed by grace so that we COULD do good works and build that mind of Christ within. That building in our own minds is works, and it is very hard work. It's by God's grace that we CAN and MAY do such works.
*******
SOUL
Then, later on, that same person learns that they still have the old natural, unrenewed mind, so salvation at that time would mean (to them) to get whole thoughts in their mind. This process takes a lot of work. That is why Paul said in Phil 2:12b “work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.”
One type of salvation is the works-free "Christ in you" in the spirit category, UNTO good works. The other type of salvation is working on one's own mind, a new mind, renewing it by changing the food it’s sent (TNDC p.34) to the point of having “Christ formed within” this soul/mind category, eventually leading us to the third category at the last trumpet: the new body.
Salvation in our mind involves works on our part, because God never possesses the mind. Changing our mind is our job. We have change the food we feed our minds to renew them, and then sort out truth from error to the best of our ability, and we have to receive, retain, and release that truth, acting on it in love. This is what Paul meant by "work out your own salvation." It's by the grace of God that we have been given the materials and the teaching to do these works.
*******
BODY
Physical healing is salvation in the body category, that can also involve some works on our part. Plus, God has His part in both the design of the self-healing human physiology, and energizing miraculous healings, both of which are gifts of grace. We can assist this type of salvation process with our works involving believing, diet, sleep, and exercise, as well as Third Aid medical assistance.
*******
So, salvation in the body and soul categories involve works on our part, plus God's grace. Salvation in the spirit category is totally by grace (AND A LOT OF MERCY), and no works because a person without spirit does not yet have the "materials" to work with. It's free because we can't pay that kind of price and we NEED it to be free
So, salvation in the body and soul categories involve works on our part, plus God's grace. Salvation in the spirit category is totally by grace (AND A LOT OF MERCY), and no works because a person without spirit does not yet have the "materials" to work with. It's free because we can't pay that kind of price and we NEED it to be free
Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhh! That explains a whole lot of stuff I just went through with an offshoot.
Did you learn this from PFAL, Mike? Or where?
I could never figure out why twi was so works oriented.
Long time, no talk. It’s good to see you again. :)-->
I learned what I posted from PFAL and from other teachings, but it took a long time putting it together like I just did. I didn’t have it in this present form until a few years ago.
Yes, works were always important too, but the TVT emphasized it to the skies as well as clouding the grace part.
I dunno, Oak. If chomping is the accepted flow around here, who would want to list such precious resources? But at the same time, who would not want to share them, considering how someone might benefit?
Personally, I have not moved on to another group or church since TWI. The whole world of churches has become my church. And so I try not to .... in the mainstream. :P-->
---
"Being saved" has changed a lot for me since PFAL. It has become more of an unfolding of layers of worldviews from a common center. And this unfolding is a heightening, broadening, lengthening, deepening experience. Quadralateral growth, if you will. Our tree has many branches.
If we want Christ to be born from within us, we must devote our lives to being born again. No, not just for our own sake, but for that of the world. Faith without works is lifeless, yada yada...
We already experience things during our own spiritual unfoldment before our rational mind even catches up and understands what is happening. And our spiritual state can spike, which is often confusing and more spasmodic, even causing certain levels of drunkeness and desperation (like TWI and the ilk).
(But the fish still does not know he is wet. Just as the babe in the womb does not know he is not yet born. And until we are born, all the direct "air" is out of reach, "trapped" beyond a luminous veil.)
And there are practices that elevate us to spiritual plateaus, which bring a continuity to our experience of peace and liberation. We begin to see that all the signs that we need to guide us in life are already in front of us, as always. We can become rationally spiritual, and not just religious, and not just rationally non-religious. Our actions and heart change, often in leaps, compared to the usual crawl.
Spiritual experience and practice are vital to climbing from plateau to plateau to any point of fulfillment. How spiritually afraid of the dark we are determines how much we learn and unfold in our own wisdom of our salvation. So with trust and love, we enter the deep with our candles held high. No, not to vanquish foes, but to see and learn.
To the depth and degree we learn and practice love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, etc..., we will experience an unfolding of the corresponding spiritual manifestations.
The sciences and understanding of dreams, visions, signs, prophecies, times, and healings and such are exercised and increase. Promoting further practice love, joy, peace, etc...
"Now" becomes good enough for all good things. Love, joy, peace, etc... always, regardless.
And that is some kind of salvation, imo.
If ever I meet someone like this (and there are people in this state of mind), I would be a fool not to consider them saved from something, or re-born in some sense of the word.
For now, I will be content with a grin in the womb. ;)-->
---
btw - anyone interested in names of groups and links and books and practices and such I've mentioned can email me, I guess. It would take me months to compile any sort of comprehensive list of resources. Besides, so much depends on where we are in life, what we've already learned and experienced, etc...
quote: (ever notice how bad the Almighty is with cash? I mean, He's ALWAYS running short)
:D-->
Does anyone have any statistics on people who attended the word in business conferences? If they all thrived, I'll retract this statement. If God was managing their businesses and they went under, I sure wouldn't want him as treasurer.
Not unlike the bumper stickers I see with "God is my co-pilot". If God's you're co-pilot, maybe he needs driving lessons.
I have been thinking and studying and praying and listening to other teachers and thinking about your post ever since you posted it...even dreamed about it.
It may make logical sense to many, however there is one flaw that hit me like a ton of bricks...
Your post seems to say that being saved is a partial thing...that only spirit is "saved".
I dunno, dude...it's like the god that can only "save" spirit is a partial god...
quote: To the depth and degree we learn and practice love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, etc..., we will experience an unfolding of the corresponding spiritual manifestations.
What kind of spiritual manifestations? You know my waybrain is thinking, SIT, interpretation, prophecy, word of wisdom, word of knowledge, yada yada yada.
I'm a little confused here. Would you please explain what you mean?
I'm not Sirguessalot, but I've been thinking some more on this subject...and here are some meandering thoughts I've had...
Looking at what we have as a record of Jesus' life, it's a different world/life than what many people have been led to believe is "christian"...i.e., Jesus' life was a different life than the life of the apostles...even the message was different.
First thing that strikes me as very different: Jesus was not a "christian". Couldn't have been...there was no "christ" yet. Couldn't even have been "born again".
So we who participated in twi were taught he had "spirit upon"...and on the day of Pentecost "spirit within" was made available...and that "spirit upon" can be "lost", whereas "spirit within" cannot. And we learned all the associated nuances of twi doctrine concerning bloodline and a "perfect walk".
TWI taught that to the point that Jesus' life was made of no importance and the lives of the apostles were elevated to the level of "better things than me [Jesus]"...and twi taught that those "better things" were the "manifestations"...tongues, interpretation of tongues, prophecy, etc.
And we forget the life of Jesus...and the things he did...like the feeding of about 5000, the mount of transfiguration, the healings...except for one thing...we were taught to focus upon his "casting out of devil spirits"...and completely lost focus upon his call to service...his life of service.
I have been forever drawn to the scene between Peter and Jesus...
"Lovest thou me, Peter?"
"Yes, lord."
"Then feed my sheep."
You know the rest.
So this question of what are "manifestations" of the spirit is a very good question...because what Jesus manifested was not what we have been taught to believe to manifest...
I see more and more how most religion fails to appreciate the vast diversity of spiritual practice in Jesus’s life, not only from the ancient semitic cultures, but from the others surrounding them (especailly considering how the centuries around year 0 were a real cosmopolitan cusp of the ages).
And I’m not just talking about a diversity of orientalisms and idioms and other things we can only read about, but a diversity of actual intense spiritual disciplines and arts (most of which were already old by the time Jesus got around to them). This idea that Jesus was somehow always a perfectly and strictly Jewish/Mosiac O.T. practitioner (whatever that means) limits how much we can understand about the significances of his life.
And TWI’s more-or-less armchair excitement and bravado over mere interpretative things like idioms and orientalisms seems hollow compared to the actual nutritious value of what I’m still only beginning to find in the “nitty gritty” world of practice. Words can and do fail...and oftentimes miserably.
One of the biggest differences I see between what Jesus manifested and what his apostles manifested is how Jesus was pretty much born practicing, where his apostles didn’t even know how to get serious about practice until they were taught in their adulthood.
---
RE: manifestations…
I hear ya, Wayfernot. Sometimes its hard to think of those infamous nine phrases without some ole’ PFAL explanation or chart poking at yer head like a “buzzkill.” ;)--> Thank God I think I’ve finally reached a point where I can read the kjv (or anything else, for that matter) without seeing PFAL definitions/warnings like internet pop-up ads.
So I do still think of “spiritual manifestation” in kjv Corinthian terms like “SIT, interpretation, prophecy,” etc…, but in a freer and more universal nature. To me, their meanings rely on a visually animate framework of relationships of form and function, rather than just some explanation paragraph on a page or commentary. And the fruits and manifestations in this framework apply in such a wide range of possibility--from a single moment in time between lovers, to the cresting of an entire age of mankind. Makes them harder to explain.
Ultimately, it seems, all of life and creation is continually this manifestation of spirit. Its just never not. But we’re mostly oblivious to it in all its various happenings and sub-happenings. Mostly, because we’ve not been taught in our day and culture how (or why) to sit still and/or wake up long enough to notice the subtler distinctions and interactions of things. So much remains trapped in books (i.e. we cannot get them out of the books and into our lives as much as we'd like to).
For me, “how spirit manifests,” or “how the mannies work” has become replaced by “how life works.” When and how and where the spirit is NOT manifest, there are empty holes where nourishment/fruit is needed. And as the holes are filled, we experience wholeness/salvation “to the depth and degree...”
And “against such, there is no law.”
;)-->
Sorry, I know its not very specific. I’m kinda short on time. Huge subject, anyway.
Hey, WN! I just realized, you and I were once fellow ‘goners, and now we’re fellow ‘zoners. :)-->
Yep, I'm a 'Zoner now. I miss 'gon; especially after hearing Shellon's trip there last week. I got married to a guy who is from here. I'm in the nowhere land though. I have to drive 100 miles to get to Vegas to do some decent shopping. I loved San Diego, but my husband gives me much more.
I don’t mean to be ignoring you, it’s just that I can’t understand you. I’ve always had a mental block for poetry. I attend a weekly poetry reading, where the author reads his piece out loud, and I am learning to somewhat appreciate fancy linguistic gymnastics that way. But I still am tone deaf to reading it on paper or screen. If you were to put a linear synopsis at the beginning or end or your discourses I might be able to translate the pretty parts.
You wrote: “Your post seems to say that being saved is a partial thing...that only spirit is "saved". __I dunno, dude...it's like the god that can only "save" spirit is a partial god...”
I never said anything about God not being able to save in the body and soul categories. There is definite salvation from God in both of those categories as well. You can look at I Thessalonians 5:23 for just one such proclamation of this total salvation from God.
Here is some of what I DID say above on this thread: “So, salvation in the body and soul categories involve works on our part, plus God's grace. Salvation in the spirit category is totally by grace (AND A LOT OF MERCY), and no works because a person without spirit does not yet have the ‘materials’ to work with. It's free because we can't pay that kind of price and we NEED it to be free.”
I THINK what you were trying to say is that you object to the fact that WORKS are involved with body and soul salvation. God CAN and DOES save us in those categories, but He also requires work on our part. The spirit category involves no works on our part because we could not accomplish spiritual works, having no spirit yet, and were helpless in that that category.
I’m sure that you, as a loving parent, did everything for your helpless newborn baby, and required no works on his part to earn food, clothing and shelter. But as he grew up and became more able, it was the loving thing on your part to REQUIRE works of some sort from him for his own sake. A loving parent wants to see their children grow up and work things out for themselves to the degree that they are capable. Otherwise their capacity to do things will never increase.
Expecting everything for free is not healthy. I’m sure you see this as a parent. The same holds for you in the body and soul categories in your relationship with God. You do your part and you can expect God’s grace to cover what you can’t.
My God is a complete deliverer, and He saves us in all three categories. Plus, He is extra gracious in the spirit category and requires no works on our part.
Now let’s get to the “Saved from what?” aspect, using the paramedic perspective where saved would mean “rescued.”
Chapter 7 of BTMS is entitled “God Rescued Us” and in there we once read the answer to “From what?” but like many things, it seems to have been forgotten.
Here’s what Dr wrote (with my bold fonts) on pages 55 and 56:
“According to Ephesians 2:1 all people are born in this world ‘... dead in trespasses and sins’ and (verse 12) ‘... having no hope, and without God ....’ Being in such a dire state, we definitely needed rescuing.
“Colossians 1:13:
Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of [by] his dear Son.
“The word ‘delivered’ is more emphatically translated ‘rescued.’ God in Christ ‘rescued us.’ Notice that this verb is in the past tense. Therefore, God no longer needs to rescue us; He has already done so. The word ‘from’ is the Greek word ek meaning ‘out of’ or ‘out from the center’ (as of a circle). What did He rescue us out of or out from among? ‘The power of darkness.’”
I think 90% of what I wrote (on this thread, at least) is precise and clear, though still quite general (and all I ever have the time to write at the GSC is synopsis, it seems).
Like this, about plateaus versus spikes in spiritual experience and practice of our salvation:
quote:And there are practices that elevate us to spiritual plateaus, which bring a continuity to our experience of peace and liberation. We begin to see that all the signs that we need to guide us in life are already in front of us, as always. We can become rationally spiritual, and not just religious, and not just rationally non-religious. Our actions and heart change, often in leaps, compared to the usual crawl.
What exactly is it about this that is too poetic to understand? -->
Besides, when I do "do it," I use figures of speech, not poetry. ;)--> :D--> :P--> Honestly.
After all, the majority of scripture (including almost all of what Jesus said) is "poetry."
And there are many, very good reasons for this, right?
In my life, I have seen varying depths of application of figurative language.
I'll try to put it in the familar linear triune model:
1) We more-or-less unconsciously rattle off poetry in basic language as we feel and need to express things (body).
2) We can craft poetic language to express double meaning, such as song and literature and fiction to stimulate the heart and mind (soul and collective soul).
3) We can also think and communicate in "para-bolic" terms to deliberately instruct and inform and stimulate higher/quicker processes (spirit-mindedness) alongside the lower/slower processes, for the purpose of "lifting ourselves and our brothers." In this case, the writer is conscious of what they are doing, and it works best if the reader is too. This more mindfully parallel mode of language elevates and expands our higher and lower natures by way of vertical and horizontal connections of meanings.
A good example of this 3rd level of "poetry" is how so many of the world's great scriptures were written in "sacred" languages. By "sacred language," I mean, NOT a mostly spontaeneously evolved language, but the result of a multi-generational project where a cultural school of wisdom actually weaves a very intricate language with the purpose of expressing and preserving overlapping layers of meaning and knowledge (and not just 2 layers) in a collection of writings.
---
Howz this?:
Is the term "fruit of the spirit" poetic or literal?
To me, its both, but ultimately literal.
Why literal?
Because, like I've said before, its not that spirit resembles physical fruit, but that physical fruit resembles spirit (for its shape comes from the spiritual realities). Spirit is the originator of the laws of "fruitness," if you will. And so figurative language can also become a lense of literal truth, when (and if) the meanings are followed "all the way home."
---
Mike, I think that if you believed bigger for yourself in this regard (poetry), you would benefit greatly in your spirituallity. Get clear and concerned about it, ya know? I'm not kidding. :)-->
And, if you ever really want me to clarify something I wrote, just ask. Or read more slowly (if yer really even interested). Ya know, I just can't help but think that you often refer to what I write as "merely poetic" to somehow diminish it. Because you don't seem to try otherwise. Not that big of a deal. Just an observation, mostly.
Biblically and otherwise, I think the only way we have ever been (or can ever be) "without spirit" is in our understanding and misunderstanding of our experiences with spirit.
All it takes is to be UNaware of the grace of life itself, and our conscious will indeed be "dead in trespasses and sins" until that changes. If our conscious is dead/asleep to spirit, would it even matter to us if the holy spirit completely surrounded us and filled our lungs and veins? No, we would probably still suffer all the way to the grave and beyond.
Ignorance alone IS enough to cause darkness overpower us, completely. Ignorance of the "nature and cause" of darkness. Because darkness is not really something that exists anyway, and so in reality, it has no power. It never has.
Except that which we ignorantly give it when we label it things like "devil" and "satan" and "hell." This is our primary illusion from the cradle. As long as we are at enmity with "death" and "hell," we have not yet been "saved" from darkness at all. And so I would consider this darknened state to be a sign of some significance. Because if we truly were delivered from darkness, how can it still be the enemy of our mind and heart?
In the end, all there is is light. Its all there ever was. From the beginning.
And it is illumination, not magic power, that dispels the darkness.
Heck, we can even forgive each other's sins, just like God.
Rule #2, "to love your neighbor/enemy as yourself" must include your own "personal adversary," no?
I think too many people are looking up at the sky for the love of God to come down and save us, when neither Christ nor the devil are waiting in the darkness of outer space. Christ is always here and now. Salvation is always here and now. This is one reason why no one can know the day or time heez "coming back." Because its up to each of us, in our own time, to give a full birth to our own Christ-nature (and only God knows when that is going to happen, right? Cuz we sure don't).;)-->
Otherwise, this view of Jesus (or any other extra-terrestrial style messiah) is just another scapegoat/sacrifice for our sins, and we and the world will never change. And so "the devil" reigns on and on and on. And we continue to justify our hate/loathe/despise for our "enemies." And we seek mostly comfort and pleasure and safety. No one will even want to believe that we can strive to the perfecting of our truest selves ("cuz Jesus was the only perfect one"). SSDD
peace
When it comes to saving ourselves, "think globablly, act locally," as they say.
If I have to choose between your take on these things and that of the Biblical writers along with Dr, I’ll be choosing the latter.
Do you at least agree that you are taking an anti-Biblical stance on some of these issues?
All through the OT it was people who received spirit who had a special connection with God. At one time during Moses’ ministry spirit was given to 70 people and it was considered a VERY big deal. David prayed he would not lose his connection after he sinned. Jesus talked about how he was working to make holy spirit much more widely available.
***
Just the opposite of an inherent, innate “Christ-nature” as you portray the population as having, God’s Word says that it’s a death-nature that is impressed on all via Adam’s rebellion.
I agree with you (I think) that a natural man’s mind, which is enmity with God, negates the effectiveness of spirit unless that mind hungers for big changes and works in that direction to effect them with the correct materials, i.e., God’s pure Word.
Even with a lot of work and the correct materials, it still takes God’s grace and power to effect the miraculous change in that natural mind to come up with Christ formed within.
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year2027
God first
Hi Oakspear
What being saved is to me
1) all that you said above and more
2) its the winning over death, the putting on a body that will never die again
3) Its having the seed of Christ in you and knowing that you will be born unto a new body that will never die of light and truth
4) Its knowing that now you need God like a unborn child needs its mother until its born and old enought to stand along side of its mother ( the day we are known as we know)
5) Not being judge by works but be justified
by love of God in your heart
6) its knowing you will live forever
7) its trusting what Jesus Christ did for us
you believing is nothing until you trust things to be so or its the trust that gives it its action
8) its never giving up on truth no matter what others say or do because we know that we are going to be born into incorruption or immortality and this is the new birth day
now we are just a child inside the belly of God by the seed of Christ waiting to the day of birth the return of Christ
that all I can say I am sure others can say it better
with love Roy
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Sunesis
That was lovely Roy.
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mj412
being saved is simple to me .
saved from death unto life.
eternal and otherwise.
I believe without the life giving spirit inside we are dead on this earth with a void and emptyness that only Jesus Christ as Lord can fill.
it is the longing desire and purpose of man.
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George Aar
I think generally it's an empty "guarantee" that there'll be pie in the sky, usually followed closely with a pitch for more money.
(ever notice how bad the Almighty is with cash? I mean, He's ALWAYS running short)
O.K., so I'm a cynical A-hole, so what else is new?
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Nottawayfer
George, LOL! You have a point though. If someone is promoting God to get money, they are using God as an empty guarantee. I think about how many times I "believed" and nothing came to pass.
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CoolWaters
"Saved from what?!?!?!?" was the thing I screamed out to whoever was listening.
Death? Who cares? After some of the things in life I've lived with, death isn't a big threat.
Eternal damnation? Thanks, but I'm just about to earn the T-shirt.
Sickness? Poverty? Fear? Bondage? Nope, nope, nope and nope. These things are a reality now regardless of the "being saved" status.
For 2 years I had no answer to the question.
Then my granddaughter's life was turned upside down when her father was arrested on 3 felony counts of rape of a minor under 14 and 2 felony counts of indecent sexual liberties with a minor under 14.
It became very clear that it's not always saved from something...it's often saved for something.
There's nobody better than me in this whole world to help my granddaughter through right now. (That's not arrogance...that's knowing at least part of what I was saved for...)
Just some personal thoughts on the subject.
:)-->
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Mike
Oakspear,
There are some subtle nuances in the words “saved” and “salvation” that often slip by people. Not only are the exact Biblical usages of these words lost in modern paramedic nomenclature, but the idea of salvation with or without works is pretty scrambled in there too.
In religious circles “salvation” is an extreme buzz word, which most pretend to understand, but few ever ask about it like you did.
Unscrambling this topic starts with a more complete definition of "salvation" as it pertains to the three categories of body, soul, and spirit. Salvation is a context sensitive word, and it depends which category is under discussion: body, soul, or spirit.
*******
SPIRIT
Salvation means to be made whole. To a being of body and soul only, receiving spirit is to be made WHOLE. This type of salvation wholeness is free, no works required.
In Ephesians it says we were saved by grace UNTO good works. We got the free holy spirit seed by grace so that we COULD do good works and build that mind of Christ within. That building in our own minds is works, and it is very hard work. It's by God's grace that we CAN and MAY do such works.
*******
SOUL
Then, later on, that same person learns that they still have the old natural, unrenewed mind, so salvation at that time would mean (to them) to get whole thoughts in their mind. This process takes a lot of work. That is why Paul said in Phil 2:12b “work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.”
One type of salvation is the works-free "Christ in you" in the spirit category, UNTO good works. The other type of salvation is working on one's own mind, a new mind, renewing it by changing the food it’s sent (TNDC p.34) to the point of having “Christ formed within” this soul/mind category, eventually leading us to the third category at the last trumpet: the new body.
Salvation in our mind involves works on our part, because God never possesses the mind. Changing our mind is our job. We have change the food we feed our minds to renew them, and then sort out truth from error to the best of our ability, and we have to receive, retain, and release that truth, acting on it in love. This is what Paul meant by "work out your own salvation." It's by the grace of God that we have been given the materials and the teaching to do these works.
*******
BODY
Physical healing is salvation in the body category, that can also involve some works on our part. Plus, God has His part in both the design of the self-healing human physiology, and energizing miraculous healings, both of which are gifts of grace. We can assist this type of salvation process with our works involving believing, diet, sleep, and exercise, as well as Third Aid medical assistance.
*******
So, salvation in the body and soul categories involve works on our part, plus God's grace. Salvation in the spirit category is totally by grace (AND A LOT OF MERCY), and no works because a person without spirit does not yet have the "materials" to work with. It's free because we can't pay that kind of price and we NEED it to be free
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CoolWaters
Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhh! That explains a whole lot of stuff I just went through with an offshoot.
Did you learn this from PFAL, Mike? Or where?
I could never figure out why twi was so works oriented.
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Mike
Hi CW,
Long time, no talk. It’s good to see you again.
:)-->
I learned what I posted from PFAL and from other teachings, but it took a long time putting it together like I just did. I didn’t have it in this present form until a few years ago.
Yes, works were always important too, but the TVT emphasized it to the skies as well as clouding the grace part.
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sirguessalot
I dunno, Oak. If chomping is the accepted flow around here, who would want to list such precious resources? But at the same time, who would not want to share them, considering how someone might benefit?
Personally, I have not moved on to another group or church since TWI. The whole world of churches has become my church. And so I try not to .... in the mainstream.
:P-->
---
"Being saved" has changed a lot for me since PFAL. It has become more of an unfolding of layers of worldviews from a common center. And this unfolding is a heightening, broadening, lengthening, deepening experience. Quadralateral growth, if you will. Our tree has many branches.
If we want Christ to be born from within us, we must devote our lives to being born again. No, not just for our own sake, but for that of the world. Faith without works is lifeless, yada yada...
We already experience things during our own spiritual unfoldment before our rational mind even catches up and understands what is happening. And our spiritual state can spike, which is often confusing and more spasmodic, even causing certain levels of drunkeness and desperation (like TWI and the ilk).
(But the fish still does not know he is wet. Just as the babe in the womb does not know he is not yet born. And until we are born, all the direct "air" is out of reach, "trapped" beyond a luminous veil.)
And there are practices that elevate us to spiritual plateaus, which bring a continuity to our experience of peace and liberation. We begin to see that all the signs that we need to guide us in life are already in front of us, as always. We can become rationally spiritual, and not just religious, and not just rationally non-religious. Our actions and heart change, often in leaps, compared to the usual crawl.
Spiritual experience and practice are vital to climbing from plateau to plateau to any point of fulfillment. How spiritually afraid of the dark we are determines how much we learn and unfold in our own wisdom of our salvation. So with trust and love, we enter the deep with our candles held high. No, not to vanquish foes, but to see and learn.
To the depth and degree we learn and practice love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, etc..., we will experience an unfolding of the corresponding spiritual manifestations.
The sciences and understanding of dreams, visions, signs, prophecies, times, and healings and such are exercised and increase. Promoting further practice love, joy, peace, etc...
"Now" becomes good enough for all good things. Love, joy, peace, etc... always, regardless.
And that is some kind of salvation, imo.
If ever I meet someone like this (and there are people in this state of mind), I would be a fool not to consider them saved from something, or re-born in some sense of the word.
For now, I will be content with a grin in the womb.
;)-->
---
btw - anyone interested in names of groups and links and books and practices and such I've mentioned can email me, I guess. It would take me months to compile any sort of comprehensive list of resources. Besides, so much depends on where we are in life, what we've already learned and experienced, etc...
peace,
Todd
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TheManOfa Thousand ScreenNames
Does anyone have any statistics on people who attended the word in business conferences? If they all thrived, I'll retract this statement. If God was managing their businesses and they went under, I sure wouldn't want him as treasurer.
Not unlike the bumper stickers I see with "God is my co-pilot". If God's you're co-pilot, maybe he needs driving lessons.
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CoolWaters
Todd,
Dude. Whoa. Um, yeah...what you said...that's it exactly.
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CoolWaters
Mike,
I have been thinking and studying and praying and listening to other teachers and thinking about your post ever since you posted it...even dreamed about it.
It may make logical sense to many, however there is one flaw that hit me like a ton of bricks...
Your post seems to say that being saved is a partial thing...that only spirit is "saved".
I dunno, dude...it's like the god that can only "save" spirit is a partial god...
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Nottawayfer
Quote by SirGuess:
What kind of spiritual manifestations? You know my waybrain is thinking, SIT, interpretation, prophecy, word of wisdom, word of knowledge, yada yada yada.
I'm a little confused here. Would you please explain what you mean?
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CoolWaters
I'm not Sirguessalot, but I've been thinking some more on this subject...and here are some meandering thoughts I've had...
Looking at what we have as a record of Jesus' life, it's a different world/life than what many people have been led to believe is "christian"...i.e., Jesus' life was a different life than the life of the apostles...even the message was different.
First thing that strikes me as very different: Jesus was not a "christian". Couldn't have been...there was no "christ" yet. Couldn't even have been "born again".
So we who participated in twi were taught he had "spirit upon"...and on the day of Pentecost "spirit within" was made available...and that "spirit upon" can be "lost", whereas "spirit within" cannot. And we learned all the associated nuances of twi doctrine concerning bloodline and a "perfect walk".
TWI taught that to the point that Jesus' life was made of no importance and the lives of the apostles were elevated to the level of "better things than me [Jesus]"...and twi taught that those "better things" were the "manifestations"...tongues, interpretation of tongues, prophecy, etc.
And we forget the life of Jesus...and the things he did...like the feeding of about 5000, the mount of transfiguration, the healings...except for one thing...we were taught to focus upon his "casting out of devil spirits"...and completely lost focus upon his call to service...his life of service.
I have been forever drawn to the scene between Peter and Jesus...
"Lovest thou me, Peter?"
"Yes, lord."
"Then feed my sheep."
You know the rest.
So this question of what are "manifestations" of the spirit is a very good question...because what Jesus manifested was not what we have been taught to believe to manifest...
Just thinking out loud here...
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sirguessalot
Good points, CW.
(& chuckles for the disclaimer)
I see more and more how most religion fails to appreciate the vast diversity of spiritual practice in Jesus’s life, not only from the ancient semitic cultures, but from the others surrounding them (especailly considering how the centuries around year 0 were a real cosmopolitan cusp of the ages).
And I’m not just talking about a diversity of orientalisms and idioms and other things we can only read about, but a diversity of actual intense spiritual disciplines and arts (most of which were already old by the time Jesus got around to them). This idea that Jesus was somehow always a perfectly and strictly Jewish/Mosiac O.T. practitioner (whatever that means) limits how much we can understand about the significances of his life.
And TWI’s more-or-less armchair excitement and bravado over mere interpretative things like idioms and orientalisms seems hollow compared to the actual nutritious value of what I’m still only beginning to find in the “nitty gritty” world of practice. Words can and do fail...and oftentimes miserably.
One of the biggest differences I see between what Jesus manifested and what his apostles manifested is how Jesus was pretty much born practicing, where his apostles didn’t even know how to get serious about practice until they were taught in their adulthood.
---
RE: manifestations…
I hear ya, Wayfernot. Sometimes its hard to think of those infamous nine phrases without some ole’ PFAL explanation or chart poking at yer head like a “buzzkill.”
;)--> Thank God I think I’ve finally reached a point where I can read the kjv (or anything else, for that matter) without seeing PFAL definitions/warnings like internet pop-up ads.
So I do still think of “spiritual manifestation” in kjv Corinthian terms like “SIT, interpretation, prophecy,” etc…, but in a freer and more universal nature. To me, their meanings rely on a visually animate framework of relationships of form and function, rather than just some explanation paragraph on a page or commentary. And the fruits and manifestations in this framework apply in such a wide range of possibility--from a single moment in time between lovers, to the cresting of an entire age of mankind. Makes them harder to explain.
Ultimately, it seems, all of life and creation is continually this manifestation of spirit. Its just never not. But we’re mostly oblivious to it in all its various happenings and sub-happenings. Mostly, because we’ve not been taught in our day and culture how (or why) to sit still and/or wake up long enough to notice the subtler distinctions and interactions of things. So much remains trapped in books (i.e. we cannot get them out of the books and into our lives as much as we'd like to).
For me, “how spirit manifests,” or “how the mannies work” has become replaced by “how life works.” When and how and where the spirit is NOT manifest, there are empty holes where nourishment/fruit is needed. And as the holes are filled, we experience wholeness/salvation “to the depth and degree...”
And “against such, there is no law.”
Sorry, I know its not very specific. I’m kinda short on time. Huge subject, anyway.
Hey, WN! I just realized, you and I were once fellow ‘goners, and now we’re fellow ‘zoners.
:)-->
Peace,
Todd
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Nottawayfer
Yep, I'm a 'Zoner now. I miss 'gon; especially after hearing Shellon's trip there last week. I got married to a guy who is from here. I'm in the nowhere land though. I have to drive 100 miles to get to Vegas to do some decent shopping. I loved San Diego, but my husband gives me much more.
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Mike
Sirguessalot,
I don’t mean to be ignoring you, it’s just that I can’t understand you. I’ve always had a mental block for poetry. I attend a weekly poetry reading, where the author reads his piece out loud, and I am learning to somewhat appreciate fancy linguistic gymnastics that way. But I still am tone deaf to reading it on paper or screen. If you were to put a linear synopsis at the beginning or end or your discourses I might be able to translate the pretty parts.
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Mike
Cool Waters,
I think you misread my post above.
You wrote: “Your post seems to say that being saved is a partial thing...that only spirit is "saved". __I dunno, dude...it's like the god that can only "save" spirit is a partial god...”
I never said anything about God not being able to save in the body and soul categories. There is definite salvation from God in both of those categories as well. You can look at I Thessalonians 5:23 for just one such proclamation of this total salvation from God.
Here is some of what I DID say above on this thread: “So, salvation in the body and soul categories involve works on our part, plus God's grace. Salvation in the spirit category is totally by grace (AND A LOT OF MERCY), and no works because a person without spirit does not yet have the ‘materials’ to work with. It's free because we can't pay that kind of price and we NEED it to be free.”
I THINK what you were trying to say is that you object to the fact that WORKS are involved with body and soul salvation. God CAN and DOES save us in those categories, but He also requires work on our part. The spirit category involves no works on our part because we could not accomplish spiritual works, having no spirit yet, and were helpless in that that category.
I’m sure that you, as a loving parent, did everything for your helpless newborn baby, and required no works on his part to earn food, clothing and shelter. But as he grew up and became more able, it was the loving thing on your part to REQUIRE works of some sort from him for his own sake. A loving parent wants to see their children grow up and work things out for themselves to the degree that they are capable. Otherwise their capacity to do things will never increase.
Expecting everything for free is not healthy. I’m sure you see this as a parent. The same holds for you in the body and soul categories in your relationship with God. You do your part and you can expect God’s grace to cover what you can’t.
My God is a complete deliverer, and He saves us in all three categories. Plus, He is extra gracious in the spirit category and requires no works on our part.
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Mike
Oakspear,
Now let’s get to the “Saved from what?” aspect, using the paramedic perspective where saved would mean “rescued.”
Chapter 7 of BTMS is entitled “God Rescued Us” and in there we once read the answer to “From what?” but like many things, it seems to have been forgotten.
Here’s what Dr wrote (with my bold fonts) on pages 55 and 56:
“According to Ephesians 2:1 all people are born in this world ‘... dead in trespasses and sins’ and (verse 12) ‘... having no hope, and without God ....’ Being in such a dire state, we definitely needed rescuing.
“Colossians 1:13:
Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of [by] his dear Son.
“The word ‘delivered’ is more emphatically translated ‘rescued.’ God in Christ ‘rescued us.’ Notice that this verb is in the past tense. Therefore, God no longer needs to rescue us; He has already done so. The word ‘from’ is the Greek word ek meaning ‘out of’ or ‘out from the center’ (as of a circle). What did He rescue us out of or out from among? ‘The power of darkness.’”
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sirguessalot
Hi, Mike.
um...huh?
What poetry?
I think 90% of what I wrote (on this thread, at least) is precise and clear, though still quite general (and all I ever have the time to write at the GSC is synopsis, it seems).
Like this, about plateaus versus spikes in spiritual experience and practice of our salvation:
What exactly is it about this that is too poetic to understand?Besides, when I do "do it," I use figures of speech, not poetry.
;)--> 
:D--> 
:P--> Honestly.
After all, the majority of scripture (including almost all of what Jesus said) is "poetry."
And there are many, very good reasons for this, right?
In my life, I have seen varying depths of application of figurative language.
I'll try to put it in the familar linear triune model:
1) We more-or-less unconsciously rattle off poetry in basic language as we feel and need to express things (body).
2) We can craft poetic language to express double meaning, such as song and literature and fiction to stimulate the heart and mind (soul and collective soul).
3) We can also think and communicate in "para-bolic" terms to deliberately instruct and inform and stimulate higher/quicker processes (spirit-mindedness) alongside the lower/slower processes, for the purpose of "lifting ourselves and our brothers." In this case, the writer is conscious of what they are doing, and it works best if the reader is too. This more mindfully parallel mode of language elevates and expands our higher and lower natures by way of vertical and horizontal connections of meanings.
A good example of this 3rd level of "poetry" is how so many of the world's great scriptures were written in "sacred" languages. By "sacred language," I mean, NOT a mostly spontaeneously evolved language, but the result of a multi-generational project where a cultural school of wisdom actually weaves a very intricate language with the purpose of expressing and preserving overlapping layers of meaning and knowledge (and not just 2 layers) in a collection of writings.
---
Howz this?:
Is the term "fruit of the spirit" poetic or literal?
To me, its both, but ultimately literal.
Why literal?
Because, like I've said before, its not that spirit resembles physical fruit, but that physical fruit resembles spirit (for its shape comes from the spiritual realities). Spirit is the originator of the laws of "fruitness," if you will. And so figurative language can also become a lense of literal truth, when (and if) the meanings are followed "all the way home."
---
Mike, I think that if you believed bigger for yourself in this regard (poetry), you would benefit greatly in your spirituallity. Get clear and concerned about it, ya know? I'm not kidding.
:)-->
And, if you ever really want me to clarify something I wrote, just ask. Or read more slowly (if yer really even interested). Ya know, I just can't help but think that you often refer to what I write as "merely poetic" to somehow diminish it. Because you don't seem to try otherwise. Not that big of a deal. Just an observation, mostly.
I'm glad you came back to this topic.
um...salvation?
(Sorry Oak)
:P-->
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Mike
sirtodd,
Maybe it's just me.
:(-->
Being raised as a science nerd,
I am new even to prose of your complexity.
I'll try harder.
:)-->
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sirguessalot
Complexity is the curse of me, I suppose.
But I am practicing being more precise.
A little more re: Salvation...
Biblically and otherwise, I think the only way we have ever been (or can ever be) "without spirit" is in our understanding and misunderstanding of our experiences with spirit.
All it takes is to be UNaware of the grace of life itself, and our conscious will indeed be "dead in trespasses and sins" until that changes. If our conscious is dead/asleep to spirit, would it even matter to us if the holy spirit completely surrounded us and filled our lungs and veins? No, we would probably still suffer all the way to the grave and beyond.
Ignorance alone IS enough to cause darkness overpower us, completely. Ignorance of the "nature and cause" of darkness. Because darkness is not really something that exists anyway, and so in reality, it has no power. It never has.
Except that which we ignorantly give it when we label it things like "devil" and "satan" and "hell." This is our primary illusion from the cradle. As long as we are at enmity with "death" and "hell," we have not yet been "saved" from darkness at all. And so I would consider this darknened state to be a sign of some significance. Because if we truly were delivered from darkness, how can it still be the enemy of our mind and heart?
In the end, all there is is light. Its all there ever was. From the beginning.
And it is illumination, not magic power, that dispels the darkness.
Heck, we can even forgive each other's sins, just like God.
Rule #2, "to love your neighbor/enemy as yourself" must include your own "personal adversary," no?
I think too many people are looking up at the sky for the love of God to come down and save us, when neither Christ nor the devil are waiting in the darkness of outer space. Christ is always here and now. Salvation is always here and now. This is one reason why no one can know the day or time heez "coming back." Because its up to each of us, in our own time, to give a full birth to our own Christ-nature (and only God knows when that is going to happen, right? Cuz we sure don't).
;)-->
Otherwise, this view of Jesus (or any other extra-terrestrial style messiah) is just another scapegoat/sacrifice for our sins, and we and the world will never change. And so "the devil" reigns on and on and on. And we continue to justify our hate/loathe/despise for our "enemies." And we seek mostly comfort and pleasure and safety. No one will even want to believe that we can strive to the perfecting of our truest selves ("cuz Jesus was the only perfect one"). SSDD
peace
When it comes to saving ourselves, "think globablly, act locally," as they say.
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Mike
Sirguessalot,
If I have to choose between your take on these things and that of the Biblical writers along with Dr, I’ll be choosing the latter.
Do you at least agree that you are taking an anti-Biblical stance on some of these issues?
All through the OT it was people who received spirit who had a special connection with God. At one time during Moses’ ministry spirit was given to 70 people and it was considered a VERY big deal. David prayed he would not lose his connection after he sinned. Jesus talked about how he was working to make holy spirit much more widely available.
***
Just the opposite of an inherent, innate “Christ-nature” as you portray the population as having, God’s Word says that it’s a death-nature that is impressed on all via Adam’s rebellion.
I agree with you (I think) that a natural man’s mind, which is enmity with God, negates the effectiveness of spirit unless that mind hungers for big changes and works in that direction to effect them with the correct materials, i.e., God’s pure Word.
Even with a lot of work and the correct materials, it still takes God’s grace and power to effect the miraculous change in that natural mind to come up with Christ formed within.
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