In Jeff's post it is obvious that JAL and those he speaks for characterize Jesus Christ as a mere "genetic equivalent" of Adam who managed to distinguish himself from Adam by always making good "free will choices." It follows, of course, from such a view that Adam, had he always made good "free will choices," could have been everything Jesus Christ is.
The view of Christ CES pushes is that he was a "unique human being," and not the unique Son of God.
*****
Scripture's Unique Son of God
"It is a startling thing to believe with Jesus that God has a Son -- and one and only begotten Son. So focus on this for a moment. Don't fly over it because it's so commonplace. It is amazing and wonderful and mind-boggling -- and oh so crucial for our salvation from perishing.
"In calling the Son of God 'only begotten' Jesus means to distinguish the only begotten Son of God from sons who are made or adopted as sons. The angels are called 'sons of God' (Job 1:6), and we Christians are called 'sons of God' (Rom. 8:14-16). Angels are 'sons of God' by virtue of being directly created by God; and Christians are 'sons of God' by virtue of being adopted into his family through our being joined to Christ by the Holy Spirit.
"But the 'one and only begotten Son' is not a Son by creation or by adoption, but by begetting. And begetting is simply a human analogy for what is beyond our comprehension. But it carries a crucial truth, as C.S. Lewis said: 'Rabbits beget rabbits; horses beget horses; humans beget humans, not statues or portraits; and God begets God -- not humans and not angels.[']
"God's only begotten Son is God. And there never was a time when God had not begotten his Son. Because the begetting of the Son is equally eternal with the existence of the God the Father. The standing forth of the Son as a perfect, personal image and representation and equal of the Father so that they exist as two persons with one divine essence is simply what it means to be God. This is the way God has existed from all eternity, without beginning. This is the point of John 1:1,14,
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God . . . And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us.
"In other words, the Word, Jesus, is the only begotten Son, and co-eternal with the Father..
"There is God. And God has a one and only begotten Son."
Another great similarity between PharaohJoseph and GodJesus is in Genesis 41:45
And Pharaoh called Joseph's name Zaph-nath-paaneah......
Bullinger's footnote says: "This, too, is not Hebrew, but Egyptian. Zap=abundance; nt (nath)=of; pa=the; aneh=life.
The whole name=abundance of life, or, of food for the living.
Kinda reminds you of Jesus' reason for coming, John 10:10
I too believe that Joseph was a type of the Christ and his story strongly shows us Jesus' relationship with God his father and the authoriy given Jesus and how he operates today.
quote:The view of Christ CES pushes is that he was a "unique human being," and not the unique Son of God.
Baloney, but please hold the mayo. Even Wierwille stressed that Jesus was the Son of God. One of the first chapters of his book is nothing but scripture references, over 50, pertaining to Jesus being the Son of God. I no longer have a copy of Wierwille's book, because I think that the CES book, "One God and One Lord", is better so please don't ask me to quote from it.
However, I do disagree with CES's spin on Administrations. I was going to write the 3 CES leaders telling my views. However, I got side tracked with other projects. Maybe at a later time. In short, the much more scriputural teachings of covenants between God and man much more adequately explains the changing relationship between God and man and its effect on histories time periods. This also glorifies God more which is another problem with the CES administrations teaching which sometimes does not. Even picking up your bible and seeing Old Testament (Covenant) and New Testament (Covenant) tells us that this is far more pertanent than CES's ideas on administrations.
Please demonstrate that CES' principals have maintained that Jesus Christ is the Son of God in a sense that is unique, rather than in the same sense that Adam was the son of God.
CES like other Christian groups teach that Jesus is the Son of God and Saviour of mankind. Isn't that better than using the word unique in describing Jesus? Isn't being the saviour of mankind unique? It sounds like you are striving about words Cynic. The word you are striving over is the word unique. Sorry I don't have any CES material in front of me to see if they have adequately used the word unique. Have a nice day. It is sunny out now in California. What am I doing in front of my monitor?
What, in CES' view -- or yours -- is there about the sense in which Jesus Christ is Son of God that is categorically so different from that sense in which Adam was the Son of God that Jesus Christ is said to be God's unique or only begotten Son?
I just did Cynic. Jesus is the saviour of mankind. There is no other Saviour. That is as unique as it gets. And if you are waiting for me to start quoting from CES materials my advise is to not hold your breath.
Can't demonstrate it from CES' materials? Demonstrate it of your own view, in your own words.
You have not demonstrated it. Your affirmation that there is no other savior but Jesus concerns his relation to men, not the sense in which he is the unique or only begotten Son of God.
Do you care to try demonstrating how the view of Christ promoted by CES' principals involves a recognition -- rather than entails the denial -- that Jesus Christ is the unique or only begotten Son of God?
If you cannot demonstrate it, maybe you could fetch one or more of CES' principals to attempt to demonstrate it.
It was beautiful out there. The bike ride I was just on was invigorating as well as being strenuous. The hill I live on is a real killer coming back, but I made it again without stopping.
O.K. I can give my view on that. However, it will have to wait until tomorrow or the next day. I would prefer to quote from scripture and my excellent bible software is not on the computer that I am using now. However, it is on my office computer and I will be back at work tomorrow.
Joseph was given complete rule of the kingdom and Joseph would do what was needed. But there were times when pharaoh would step in and over rule Joseph; and Joseph gracefully obeyed.
I believe Jesus does the same today, as head of the body.
Rev. 1:1 shows that he received the revelation from God and then Jesus decided to send an angel, instead of himself personally delivering the message.
My work load is very heavy now and I am a little worried that I will be able to get everything done that I need to. However, below is some basic scripture on only begotten and Jesus the only begotten Son of God. "Only begotten" is Strong's number 3439 and is monogenees in the Greek. There are 9 usages of this word in the New Testament with scriptures below. I will comment on this when I get a little more time. Until then all the usages are here for anyone to view and comment on.
John 1:14
14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
NKJV
John 1:18
18 No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.
NKJV
John 3:16
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
NKJV
John 3:18
18 He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
NKJV
Heb 11:17
17 By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,
NKJV
1 John 4:9
9 In this the love of God was manifested toward us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him.
NKJV
Luke 7:12
12 And when He came near the gate of the city, behold, a dead man was being carried out, the only son of his mother; and she was a widow. And a large crowd from the city was with her.
NKJV
Luke 8:42
42 for he had an only daughter about twelve years of age, and she was dying. But as He went, the multitudes thronged Him.
NKJV
Luke 9:38
38 Suddenly a man from the multitude cried out, saying, "Teacher, I implore You, look on my son, for he is my only child.
some representation of you, but not quite the same as you...human? Why is it so difficult to accept that the Son of God would be what His Father is, a God? When Jesus was Born Again...The Ressurection, that's when He got a new body. His body was like His Father's Body...A God Body.
When we are Born Again, at the Ressurection, or if we are so lucky to have it happen when Jesus comes back...we will be changed, born again physically, and be given a new body, like His new body...and be Gods, like them.
When Jesus was on earth, he had a body like Adam...sinless, immortal, but not quite God...after his likeness, but not after his kind, remember. How's that for a can of worms.
Awright Rachel! But I don't quite know where to start. How about this? (Imagine me posing this like the 'Church Chat' lady from SNL):
"Rachel, and who do you think said you'll become like gods? Hmmm? Could it be...mmm....SATAN???"
I don't say that to be ugly, i just couldn't resist after I got the picture of the lady saying that. :)-->I'll be eager to hear others' comments on the subject. When it comes to Godhead, a subject of which NOBODY here has personal experience, people love to make definitive, open-and-shut, that-settles-it, kind of statements. Don't they?
The logic would be flawed if...I was supposing that the son would have the same job as the father, but I am referring to seed...your son is what you are, not what you do. You are human, your son is human, not a monkey or whatever the %#@*. If it was that easy, free will to keep the commandments(Love Jesus) or not wouldnt be an issue here.
Also, Jesus said, that He said we are gods, but we shall die like men, Psalm 82:6, John 10:34. As to the them becoming like God, what Satan said was, "God knows that when you eat this, you eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be AS gods, knowing good and evil.
Satan didnt lie here. That happened.
So it is probably same to assume, logically that gods know the diff between good and evil.
I do not think just because a father is God the Son is as well. using your logic Rachel
some sons are very very differnt than their fathers even in name sake and we would not recognize the relation unless told it was so.
so we can not assume, also it is the spirit that impregnated Mary of which God is a Spirit .. so maybe God didnt use all of his marks as the ONLY God and creator. for example my daughter has blonde hair and her father has jet black hair so some stuff came from somewhere eles.. namely Mary his mother. or a long lost relative down the line of birth order.
We are not clones as humans no one has the same code to reproduce the same again.
Aslo spirit is spirit , it does not work as the flesh, and It is clearly written we can not know God His ways are far above ours and etc.. so we do not know how he contributed to the making of Jesus christ really.
it was a miricle , without much definition .
so to assume Jesus Father is so jesus must be is the same is not very logical on many fronts.
the bible state man was made in His image so all of us Look like God in some manner but does that mean we have the title God ?
the idea of God as a title: my father is a dr. yet I can not say well Im a dr. as well because my dad is.
Because Jesus Christs father created the world does not mean he is also capable of such.
It's not rocket science, but it's not theology either :P-->
Your theory, Rachel, might be correct if God was reproducing like a human or animal does. God didn't have sex with Mary in order to produce a God-man hybrid.
Something else to keep in mind: God is spirit, so, according to your "after his seed" logic, then Jesus shouild be spirit too, right? Or at least half spirit, since Mary was human. But isn't it true that he did not receive the spirit until his 30th year?
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WordWolf
I'm glad I'm not the only one who saw Pharoah giving the signet ring to
Joseph as a "power-of-attorney", and saw a similarity to the authority
given Jesus Christ.
(Someone once told me the concept of the "power-of-attorney" was unknown
in Jesus' time. Since it was in effect in Genesis, that would have been
strange.)
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Cynic
CES' Mere Super-Cool, Sinless, Unique Human Being
In Jeff's post it is obvious that JAL and those he speaks for characterize Jesus Christ as a mere "genetic equivalent" of Adam who managed to distinguish himself from Adam by always making good "free will choices." It follows, of course, from such a view that Adam, had he always made good "free will choices," could have been everything Jesus Christ is.
The view of Christ CES pushes is that he was a "unique human being," and not the unique Son of God.
*****
Scripture's Unique Son of God
"It is a startling thing to believe with Jesus that God has a Son -- and one and only begotten Son. So focus on this for a moment. Don't fly over it because it's so commonplace. It is amazing and wonderful and mind-boggling -- and oh so crucial for our salvation from perishing.
"In calling the Son of God 'only begotten' Jesus means to distinguish the only begotten Son of God from sons who are made or adopted as sons. The angels are called 'sons of God' (Job 1:6), and we Christians are called 'sons of God' (Rom. 8:14-16). Angels are 'sons of God' by virtue of being directly created by God; and Christians are 'sons of God' by virtue of being adopted into his family through our being joined to Christ by the Holy Spirit.
"But the 'one and only begotten Son' is not a Son by creation or by adoption, but by begetting. And begetting is simply a human analogy for what is beyond our comprehension. But it carries a crucial truth, as C.S. Lewis said: 'Rabbits beget rabbits; horses beget horses; humans beget humans, not statues or portraits; and God begets God -- not humans and not angels.[']
"God's only begotten Son is God. And there never was a time when God had not begotten his Son. Because the begetting of the Son is equally eternal with the existence of the God the Father. The standing forth of the Son as a perfect, personal image and representation and equal of the Father so that they exist as two persons with one divine essence is simply what it means to be God. This is the way God has existed from all eternity, without beginning. This is the point of John 1:1,14,
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God . . . And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us.
"In other words, the Word, Jesus, is the only begotten Son, and co-eternal with the Father..
"There is God. And God has a one and only begotten Son."
-- John Piper, The Design: Love
(From http://www.desiringgod.org/library/sermons/94/121194.html.)
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Lightside
Another great similarity between PharaohJoseph and GodJesus is in Genesis 41:45
And Pharaoh called Joseph's name Zaph-nath-paaneah......
Bullinger's footnote says: "This, too, is not Hebrew, but Egyptian. Zap=abundance; nt (nath)=of; pa=the; aneh=life.
The whole name=abundance of life, or, of food for the living.
Kinda reminds you of Jesus' reason for coming, John 10:10
I too believe that Joseph was a type of the Christ and his story strongly shows us Jesus' relationship with God his father and the authoriy given Jesus and how he operates today.
IMHO
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Mark Sanguinetti
Baloney, but please hold the mayo. Even Wierwille stressed that Jesus was the Son of God. One of the first chapters of his book is nothing but scripture references, over 50, pertaining to Jesus being the Son of God. I no longer have a copy of Wierwille's book, because I think that the CES book, "One God and One Lord", is better so please don't ask me to quote from it.
However, I do disagree with CES's spin on Administrations. I was going to write the 3 CES leaders telling my views. However, I got side tracked with other projects. Maybe at a later time. In short, the much more scriputural teachings of covenants between God and man much more adequately explains the changing relationship between God and man and its effect on histories time periods. This also glorifies God more which is another problem with the CES administrations teaching which sometimes does not. Even picking up your bible and seeing Old Testament (Covenant) and New Testament (Covenant) tells us that this is far more pertanent than CES's ideas on administrations.
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Cynic
Mark,
Please demonstrate that CES' principals have maintained that Jesus Christ is the Son of God in a sense that is unique, rather than in the same sense that Adam was the son of God.
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Mark Sanguinetti
CES like other Christian groups teach that Jesus is the Son of God and Saviour of mankind. Isn't that better than using the word unique in describing Jesus? Isn't being the saviour of mankind unique? It sounds like you are striving about words Cynic. The word you are striving over is the word unique. Sorry I don't have any CES material in front of me to see if they have adequately used the word unique. Have a nice day. It is sunny out now in California. What am I doing in front of my monitor?
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Cynic
Stop shuffling, Mark, and demonstrate something.
What, in CES' view -- or yours -- is there about the sense in which Jesus Christ is Son of God that is categorically so different from that sense in which Adam was the Son of God that Jesus Christ is said to be God's unique or only begotten Son?
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Mark Sanguinetti
I just did Cynic. Jesus is the saviour of mankind. There is no other Saviour. That is as unique as it gets. And if you are waiting for me to start quoting from CES materials my advise is to not hold your breath.
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Cynic
Okay, Mark,
Can't demonstrate it from CES' materials? Demonstrate it of your own view, in your own words.
You have not demonstrated it. Your affirmation that there is no other savior but Jesus concerns his relation to men, not the sense in which he is the unique or only begotten Son of God.
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Jeff USAF RET
Here is a great link to many articles from CES stuff about Jesus.
http://www.truthortradition.com/modules.ph...windex&catid=29
I trust they are eye opening and heart lifting in our quest to know and be like our Lord, Jesus!
Jeff
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Cynic
Jeff,
Do you care to try demonstrating how the view of Christ promoted by CES' principals involves a recognition -- rather than entails the denial -- that Jesus Christ is the unique or only begotten Son of God?
If you cannot demonstrate it, maybe you could fetch one or more of CES' principals to attempt to demonstrate it.
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Mark Sanguinetti
It was beautiful out there. The bike ride I was just on was invigorating as well as being strenuous. The hill I live on is a real killer coming back, but I made it again without stopping.
O.K. I can give my view on that. However, it will have to wait until tomorrow or the next day. I would prefer to quote from scripture and my excellent bible software is not on the computer that I am using now. However, it is on my office computer and I will be back at work tomorrow.
Cheers.
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Cynic
Ma?.
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Lightside
Another similarity.
Joseph was given complete rule of the kingdom and Joseph would do what was needed. But there were times when pharaoh would step in and over rule Joseph; and Joseph gracefully obeyed.
I believe Jesus does the same today, as head of the body.
Rev. 1:1 shows that he received the revelation from God and then Jesus decided to send an angel, instead of himself personally delivering the message.
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Mark Sanguinetti
My work load is very heavy now and I am a little worried that I will be able to get everything done that I need to. However, below is some basic scripture on only begotten and Jesus the only begotten Son of God. "Only begotten" is Strong's number 3439 and is monogenees in the Greek. There are 9 usages of this word in the New Testament with scriptures below. I will comment on this when I get a little more time. Until then all the usages are here for anyone to view and comment on.
John 1:14
14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
NKJV
John 1:18
18 No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.
NKJV
John 3:16
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
NKJV
John 3:18
18 He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
NKJV
Heb 11:17
17 By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,
NKJV
1 John 4:9
9 In this the love of God was manifested toward us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him.
NKJV
Luke 7:12
12 And when He came near the gate of the city, behold, a dead man was being carried out, the only son of his mother; and she was a widow. And a large crowd from the city was with her.
NKJV
Luke 8:42
42 for he had an only daughter about twelve years of age, and she was dying. But as He went, the multitudes thronged Him.
NKJV
Luke 9:38
38 Suddenly a man from the multitude cried out, saying, "Teacher, I implore You, look on my son, for he is my only child.
NKJV
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Rachel
Do any of you men have children? Sons maybe?
If so, what are they, are they monkeys? are they
some representation of you, but not quite the same as you...human? Why is it so difficult to accept that the Son of God would be what His Father is, a God? When Jesus was Born Again...The Ressurection, that's when He got a new body. His body was like His Father's Body...A God Body.
When we are Born Again, at the Ressurection, or if we are so lucky to have it happen when Jesus comes back...we will be changed, born again physically, and be given a new body, like His new body...and be Gods, like them.
When Jesus was on earth, he had a body like Adam...sinless, immortal, but not quite God...after his likeness, but not after his kind, remember. How's that for a can of worms.
Bring it on,
Rachel
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TheEvan
Awright Rachel! But I don't quite know where to start. How about this? (Imagine me posing this like the 'Church Chat' lady from SNL):
"Rachel, and who do you think said you'll become like gods? Hmmm? Could it be...mmm....SATAN???"
I don't say that to be ugly, i just couldn't resist after I got the picture of the lady saying that.
:)-->I'll be eager to hear others' comments on the subject. When it comes to Godhead, a subject of which NOBODY here has personal experience, people love to make definitive, open-and-shut, that-settles-it, kind of statements. Don't they?
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Oakspear
Not me
:D-->
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WordWolf
Rachel,
Is "God" a substance, or a title?
I call my father "Dad". Dad had a son. Is that son also "Dad"? A "Dad"?
Let's say Dad is an airline pilot. Will his son also be an airline pilot?
Will he share in the "airline pilot nature"?
Saying that a SON of God is necessarily God is no different from saying
a son of an airline pilot is necessarily an airline pilot.
At least you carried your other logic to its conclusion.
If Jesus, Son of God, became a god/godling/demigod at his resurrection,
then when WE are transformed, we will also be godlings, we "will also
be as gods". Please examine your conclusion carefully. You should notice
that it's flawed, which means that your reasoning to get there is flawed.
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Rachel
Pretty good start...
The logic would be flawed if...I was supposing that the son would have the same job as the father, but I am referring to seed...your son is what you are, not what you do. You are human, your son is human, not a monkey or whatever the %#@*. If it was that easy, free will to keep the commandments(Love Jesus) or not wouldnt be an issue here.
Also, Jesus said, that He said we are gods, but we shall die like men, Psalm 82:6, John 10:34. As to the them becoming like God, what Satan said was, "God knows that when you eat this, you eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be AS gods, knowing good and evil.
Satan didnt lie here. That happened.
So it is probably same to assume, logically that gods know the diff between good and evil.
It's up to us to decide which we are going to do.
Rachel
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WordWolf
So,
based on your reply,
you ARE saying that "God" is a PROPERTY, a SUBSTANCE,
"Godness", if you will, of which God is composed?
Therefore, producing after His kind would produce an offspring
composed of "Godness"?
"Your son is what you are, not what you do."
"Why is it so difficult to accept that the Son of God would be what
His Father is, a God?"
Looks like that's EXACTLY what you're saying, to me.
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mj412
Wordwolf or more to Rachel
I do not think just because a father is God the Son is as well. using your logic Rachel
some sons are very very differnt than their fathers even in name sake and we would not recognize the relation unless told it was so.
so we can not assume, also it is the spirit that impregnated Mary of which God is a Spirit .. so maybe God didnt use all of his marks as the ONLY God and creator. for example my daughter has blonde hair and her father has jet black hair so some stuff came from somewhere eles.. namely Mary his mother. or a long lost relative down the line of birth order.
We are not clones as humans no one has the same code to reproduce the same again.
Aslo spirit is spirit , it does not work as the flesh, and It is clearly written we can not know God His ways are far above ours and etc.. so we do not know how he contributed to the making of Jesus christ really.
it was a miricle , without much definition .
so to assume Jesus Father is so jesus must be is the same is not very logical on many fronts.
the bible state man was made in His image so all of us Look like God in some manner but does that mean we have the title God ?
the idea of God as a title: my father is a dr. yet I can not say well Im a dr. as well because my dad is.
Because Jesus Christs father created the world does not mean he is also capable of such.
Edited by mj412Link to comment
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Rachel
wordwolf...
you are human, after the kind, or seed, right?
your children are human, after your kind, of seed, right?
so...if God had a son (and He does) after His Kind, or seed, what would it be?
This is easy, connect the dots. It's not rocket science.
Rachel
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Oakspear
It's not rocket science, but it's not theology either
:P-->
Your theory, Rachel, might be correct if God was reproducing like a human or animal does. God didn't have sex with Mary in order to produce a God-man hybrid.
Something else to keep in mind: God is spirit, so, according to your "after his seed" logic, then Jesus shouild be spirit too, right? Or at least half spirit, since Mary was human. But isn't it true that he did not receive the spirit until his 30th year?
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