Well you have me at a disadvantage in that I cant remember what Koestlers "Thirteenth Tribe" actually says, and I threw it out in a book cleanout a couple years back.
I was heavily involved with The Christian "Identity" movement, and Dan Gaymans "Church of Israel" at the time and was more interested in studying their HATE doctrine.
Identity ( basically)teaches that the "jews" are actually "Ashkenazi", decendants of Esau. Wheras Gayman taught that the "Jews" are "Serpent Seed".
Herbert W Armstrong appears( as I see it) to teach that the "Jews" are of the two tribe Kingdom of Judah wheres the White man is of the ten tribes who were of the kingdom of (Samaria?).
So which position does Koestler take of these three positions? Or does he have yet another variance?
The notion behind Identity is that the White Man has forgotten who he IS. The focus is upon rembering his Identity.
We were taught in twi that the holocaust didn't happen the way history portrayed it. And that book was part of the explanation for such. However, I could have sworn the author later corrected himself on having stated what he did about the holocaust. Yet I don't recall it ever being addressed in twi. Any help on that?
It has been a while and the book was not a quick read, but i don't think Koestler was saying anything like that.
He was a Jew. Supposedly, while reserching his liniage or something, came across information that said modern day Jews were not at all from the tribe of Juda or even one of the twelve tribes (hence the title of the book), but decendants from, as Danny noted earlier, a 10th century Russian tribe known as the Kazars. I aslo think he was supposedly in hiding for fear of his life after writing this book. Who know if any of it is true.
TWI would take this info and say the only true Judeans still around are the ones the Bible refers to as deaspera(sp?) as in "scattered abroad". At the same time they would say, when Jews cried anti-semite, that they were the anti-semites for cusifying JC. How could they do that if they weren't really Jews? Just an example of the hate they spewed.
I am interested in this identity movment, sounds very weird, but would also like to hear if anyone has info on the validity of Koestler's book.
TTT obviously helpd twi agree with the Myth of the Six Million because they saw it as they were not Jews. Plus they accused well to do Jews as selling other Jews out during the holocaust. I never really remember it being taught or voiced in a Sunday Service meeting, maybe in a Corps meeting, other than someone saying if there was six million they were not all Jews. That is a known fact but still that was a lot of killing regardless.
TWI just used this stuff as a tool for thier hate and superiority complex.
I don't think they ever addressed the correction, at least not while I was around.
Koestler's thesis has been discredited by DNA evidence linking the Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews. At least, I think that's how it works. I'll look for the links.
Well at least I see now why Identity believers like to have a copy of "thirteenth Tribe" on their shelf. They can use the writings of a Jew who admits that many "jews" arent really "jews" to prove their points.
TWI taught that the real Jews will resurface after the gathering together. If you read the OT, the bloodline was kept basically pure for a good while. Then during the reign of Solomon's son, Rehoboam, the kingdom split: 10 tribes separated themselves, called themselves Israel, and had Samaria as their capital city. The remaining tribes, Judah and Benjamin, were called Judah, and kept Jerusalem as their capital city. 250 or so years later the Assyrians conquered Israel (10 separated tribes) and scattered them all over their empire. THAT'S when the bloodline got f*cked up. Later when Judah and Benjamin returned from the 70 yrs in Babylon Ezra made sure any bloodline contamination that took place during those 70 yrs was identified and dealt with.
So by the time of Christ only 2 of the 12 original tribes had their bloodline intact. That's why the Samaritans and the Gallileans were "lesser" Jews than the Judeans. That's why being of the tribe of Benjamin was one of Paul's "bragging rights" in Phil. 3. And 2,000 yrs later some want me to believe that anybody who calls themself a Jew is special to God?
Koestler didn't hate Jews; he thought Hitler was basically an idiot. He just felt it nec essary to call it like he saw it.
So it was the Assyrians that f*cked it up. They always f***** things up, at least that is what I tell my wife. Oh, she's half Assyrian. Our poor son has f*cked up blood.
Koestler's theory is crapola, and those who seized on it draw conclusions that are not based on accurate information. It was an interesting thesis, but as it turns out, it was simply wrong.
Its interesting to note Raf that two of the articles you cited seem to demonstrate a long term protection of the genetic line of Jewry.
In other words they have had a great tendancy not to "interbreed" and break down the bloodline.
Example;
quote: The existence of a priestly line of males ("Cohanim") is demonstrable as a distinctive set of genetic markers on the father-to-son transmitted Y chromosome. Limited variation of these markers among Cohanim males is compatible with a 3300 year old origin in a single male or group of related males, possibly from the family of Aaron.
amazing!
But then one of the other articles says that "Jewishness" has not much to do with genetic lines and has more to do with being in the 'faith'.
I have seen the information that Raf has mentioned, and agree with it. Koestler has been largely debunked.
Koestler, despite what Wierwille said, did not write that all modern Jews are descended from the Khazars. He claimed that the Eastern European Jews, the most numerous were. This branch of modern Jewry is called the Ashkenazim. The second major branch of Jewry was called the Sephardim. These Jews were largly those who lived in Palestine, and around the Mediteranean. Many could trace their lineage to the Jews of medievel Spain and Portugal, and many held high positions in the Muslim Arab caliphates. They had their own language, Ladino, which was a Romance language influenced by Hebrew. Koestler recognized the cultural differences between the Ashenazim and the Sephardim and concluded that it was ethnically based.
Wierwille and his stooge Martindale misread Koestler (or maybe deliberately misrepresented him) and taught that all modern Jews were descended from the Khazars.
Koestler also did not claim, as Wierwille said, that Yiddish was related to the Khazar language, but understood properly that it was a branch of German with Hebrew, Polish and Russian influences and loan words.
Wierwille and Martindale also made much of the supposed difference between the words "Jew" and "Judean", when both were corruptions of the original Hebrew word Yehudayim(?)
Oak, well you seem to know something about it, so, I assume there was some reason why VPW was interested in pointing out that European Jewry was Ashkenazim. What was the aim behind his claims?
Wierwille thought that no modern Jews were descended from the biblical Jews. He misrepresented or misunderstood Koestler. WordWolf's explanation is plausible, but I doubt we'll ever know for sure.
I'm not sure what was going on in the world politically in the '70's and '80's when books like "The Thirteenth Tribe" and "The Myth of the Six Million" were promoted in the way bookstore,but in those days I remember talking with many Christians from other sects who felt it was the Christian's duty to "pray for Israel" and to send money and so forth to help restore the promised land to his chosen people...
The way bookstore also promoted "Babylon Mystery Religion"...While I can't say what a dead man's motives were,the issue the way seemed to have was with other religions promoting themselves as 'the true church' or 'God's chosen people"..."There is neither Jew nor Gentile" was a very foundational belief of the way...I think in that context it was taught,at least publicly,that no particular bloodlines had any special favor with God in this administration...I never read any of those three books,so I don't believe they were required reading for anybody in the way...
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Refiner
LindyHopper.
Well you have me at a disadvantage in that I cant remember what Koestlers "Thirteenth Tribe" actually says, and I threw it out in a book cleanout a couple years back.
I was heavily involved with The Christian "Identity" movement, and Dan Gaymans "Church of Israel" at the time and was more interested in studying their HATE doctrine.
Identity ( basically)teaches that the "jews" are actually "Ashkenazi", decendants of Esau. Wheras Gayman taught that the "Jews" are "Serpent Seed".
Herbert W Armstrong appears( as I see it) to teach that the "Jews" are of the two tribe Kingdom of Judah wheres the White man is of the ten tribes who were of the kingdom of (Samaria?).
So which position does Koestler take of these three positions? Or does he have yet another variance?
The notion behind Identity is that the White Man has forgotten who he IS. The focus is upon rembering his Identity.
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houseisarockin
Question!
We were taught in twi that the holocaust didn't happen the way history portrayed it. And that book was part of the explanation for such. However, I could have sworn the author later corrected himself on having stated what he did about the holocaust. Yet I don't recall it ever being addressed in twi. Any help on that?
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lindyhopper
It has been a while and the book was not a quick read, but i don't think Koestler was saying anything like that.
He was a Jew. Supposedly, while reserching his liniage or something, came across information that said modern day Jews were not at all from the tribe of Juda or even one of the twelve tribes (hence the title of the book), but decendants from, as Danny noted earlier, a 10th century Russian tribe known as the Kazars. I aslo think he was supposedly in hiding for fear of his life after writing this book. Who know if any of it is true.
TWI would take this info and say the only true Judeans still around are the ones the Bible refers to as deaspera(sp?) as in "scattered abroad". At the same time they would say, when Jews cried anti-semite, that they were the anti-semites for cusifying JC. How could they do that if they weren't really Jews? Just an example of the hate they spewed.
I am interested in this identity movment, sounds very weird, but would also like to hear if anyone has info on the validity of Koestler's book.
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lindyhopper
TTT obviously helpd twi agree with the Myth of the Six Million because they saw it as they were not Jews. Plus they accused well to do Jews as selling other Jews out during the holocaust. I never really remember it being taught or voiced in a Sunday Service meeting, maybe in a Corps meeting, other than someone saying if there was six million they were not all Jews. That is a known fact but still that was a lot of killing regardless.
TWI just used this stuff as a tool for thier hate and superiority complex.
I don't think they ever addressed the correction, at least not while I was around.
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Raf
Diaspora.
Koestler's thesis has been discredited by DNA evidence linking the Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews. At least, I think that's how it works. I'll look for the links.
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Refiner
I will give readers a pair of tinted spectacles to put on which will allow them to think as a Biblical racist thinks.
The spectacles are an assumption. Assume that you as an American are actually a member of the lost tribes of Israel.
Now read the Old Testament thru the spectacles. Many of the scriptures fit a pattern that was previously invisible to you.
Read these scriptures:
Genesis 12 v 1-3:
Since when were the Jews ever a great nation? Where is there a great nation to be found?
Genesis 28 v 14:
Which nations spread to the North, the South, the West and into all the Islands and had Dominion therin?
Genesis 17 v 1-5:
Since when were the Jews “many nations”?
Ezra 10 v 10.
Why are ye mixing your pure blood with the blood of non Israelites?
Leviticus 26:
Which nations have dominion over the earth and number as the “sands of the seashore”?
Etc, etc, If Jesus is the promised seed for Israel why is it that belief in him is centered in the white nations, wheras the Jew rejects Him?
That is how they think.
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houseisarockin
Thanks lindyhopper, that's pretty much what I remember also. You nailed it on their using it as part of their superiority complex.
Back to Tombstone.....I got your huckleberry.
:P-->
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lindyhopper
Tres Bizarre.
The majority of the readers of the Bible are reading with one or a number of spectacles of assumption. IMHO
Thanks Raf, that would be great.
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Refiner
Well at least I see now why Identity believers like to have a copy of "thirteenth Tribe" on their shelf. They can use the writings of a Jew who admits that many "jews" arent really "jews" to prove their points.
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Refiner
The Ashkenazi, who have already hijacked your Identity, concocted a false holocaust so as to elicit sympathy for themselves.
And whats happened now?
The overemotional and sympathetic white man has allowed them to Hijack the land of Israel! Handed it to them on a silver platter!
Thats what "holocaust denial" boils down to.
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johniam
TWI taught that the real Jews will resurface after the gathering together. If you read the OT, the bloodline was kept basically pure for a good while. Then during the reign of Solomon's son, Rehoboam, the kingdom split: 10 tribes separated themselves, called themselves Israel, and had Samaria as their capital city. The remaining tribes, Judah and Benjamin, were called Judah, and kept Jerusalem as their capital city. 250 or so years later the Assyrians conquered Israel (10 separated tribes) and scattered them all over their empire. THAT'S when the bloodline got f*cked up. Later when Judah and Benjamin returned from the 70 yrs in Babylon Ezra made sure any bloodline contamination that took place during those 70 yrs was identified and dealt with.
So by the time of Christ only 2 of the 12 original tribes had their bloodline intact. That's why the Samaritans and the Gallileans were "lesser" Jews than the Judeans. That's why being of the tribe of Benjamin was one of Paul's "bragging rights" in Phil. 3. And 2,000 yrs later some want me to believe that anybody who calls themself a Jew is special to God?
Koestler didn't hate Jews; he thought Hitler was basically an idiot. He just felt it nec essary to call it like he saw it.
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lindyhopper
So it was the Assyrians that f*cked it up. They always f***** things up, at least that is what I tell my wife. Oh, she's half Assyrian. Our poor son has f*cked up blood.
Thanks for informing me JohnUR.
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Raf
Koestler debunked.
Do a search for the word "Koestler" in this article.
One more for good measure.
Koestler's theory is crapola, and those who seized on it draw conclusions that are not based on accurate information. It was an interesting thesis, but as it turns out, it was simply wrong.
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Refiner
Its interesting to note Raf that two of the articles you cited seem to demonstrate a long term protection of the genetic line of Jewry.
In other words they have had a great tendancy not to "interbreed" and break down the bloodline.
Example;
amazing!
But then one of the other articles says that "Jewishness" has not much to do with genetic lines and has more to do with being in the 'faith'.
So....
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Raf
It's apples and oranges.
There's followers of the Jewish religion.
There's descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
Being a member of one group does not necessarily make you a member of the other.
Koestler's thesis is that those claiming to be in the second group are not. And he was wrong about it.
The article you refer to is talking about the first group.
Yes, it is interesting.
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Oakspear
I have seen the information that Raf has mentioned, and agree with it. Koestler has been largely debunked.
Koestler, despite what Wierwille said, did not write that all modern Jews are descended from the Khazars. He claimed that the Eastern European Jews, the most numerous were. This branch of modern Jewry is called the Ashkenazim. The second major branch of Jewry was called the Sephardim. These Jews were largly those who lived in Palestine, and around the Mediteranean. Many could trace their lineage to the Jews of medievel Spain and Portugal, and many held high positions in the Muslim Arab caliphates. They had their own language, Ladino, which was a Romance language influenced by Hebrew. Koestler recognized the cultural differences between the Ashenazim and the Sephardim and concluded that it was ethnically based.
Wierwille and his stooge Martindale misread Koestler (or maybe deliberately misrepresented him) and taught that all modern Jews were descended from the Khazars.
Koestler also did not claim, as Wierwille said, that Yiddish was related to the Khazar language, but understood properly that it was a branch of German with Hebrew, Polish and Russian influences and loan words.
Wierwille and Martindale also made much of the supposed difference between the words "Jew" and "Judean", when both were corruptions of the original Hebrew word Yehudayim(?)
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Refiner
Oak, well you seem to know something about it, so, I assume there was some reason why VPW was interested in pointing out that European Jewry was Ashkenazim. What was the aim behind his claims?
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WordWolf
Was there a reason beyond him being of Germanic descent and wanting to
legitimize the Nazis, which meant he had to discredit Jews?
vpw was a brilliant salesman, but I find, in 20/20 hindsight, he was unremarkable
beyond that.
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Oakspear
Refiner:
Wierwille thought that no modern Jews were descended from the biblical Jews. He misrepresented or misunderstood Koestler. WordWolf's explanation is plausible, but I doubt we'll ever know for sure.
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George Aar
And the distinct possibility that Herr Doktor was a freaking mental case no doubt explains quite a bit also...
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simonzelotes
I'm not sure what was going on in the world politically in the '70's and '80's when books like "The Thirteenth Tribe" and "The Myth of the Six Million" were promoted in the way bookstore,but in those days I remember talking with many Christians from other sects who felt it was the Christian's duty to "pray for Israel" and to send money and so forth to help restore the promised land to his chosen people...
The way bookstore also promoted "Babylon Mystery Religion"...While I can't say what a dead man's motives were,the issue the way seemed to have was with other religions promoting themselves as 'the true church' or 'God's chosen people"..."There is neither Jew nor Gentile" was a very foundational belief of the way...I think in that context it was taught,at least publicly,that no particular bloodlines had any special favor with God in this administration...I never read any of those three books,so I don't believe they were required reading for anybody in the way...
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excathedra
funny you should mention the babylon mystery religion, simon
i sent refiner my holy spirit book a few days ago and at the last minute i threw in that book
i guess i felt bad i didn't have all my "studies in abundant living" series books to send, so i sent what i had
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def59
VPW was a typical right-wing fanatic.
He was anti-Jew, anti-Catholic and anti-a bunch of stuff.
It was all draped in "rightly-dividing-the-Word" phraseology, but it was hateful doctrine.
Is it any wonder Lcm got the mantle? His witch hunts would made Salem look like schoolyard teasing.
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Tom Strange
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