quote: So again, can you demonstrate how you never act hypocritcally?
Damn, I just LOVE this. :D-->
Why is it that when those we are opposed to (for any reason) act hypocritically, we jump all over them as tho' their hypocrisy is the key element that proves them to be wrong. YET, when those who we agree with/side with, act hypocritically, it then becomes excuse making time? "Well, we are ALL hypocritical at some point or another. Aren't YOU?"
And its interesting that since we all have hypocrisy from time to time, you wold have hypocrisy too, right? ..... Yet you 'shoot from the hip' just as much as I do (yes, you do), in pointing out others flaws and hypocrisies.
Its all part of voicing our opinions in what we find flawed in other people and things.
Here's something else on my end, too.
quote: Here's something else, many Christians I know will find allies on certain moral issues from different pools of thought.
No ....! Just ask those who find an 'ally' in Rev. Sung Yung Moon (sp?) and his Washington Times newspaper re: different conservative causes. :P Even with Moon's rather controversial views regarding why Jews died in the Holocaust, and other issues:
quote: ... His gospel: Jesus failed because he never attained worldly power. Moon will succeed, he says, by purifying our sex-corrupted culture, and that includes cleaning up gays ("dung-eating dogs," as he calls them) and American women ("a line of prostitutes"). Jews had better repent, too. (Moon claims that the Holocaust was payback for the crucifixion of Christ: "Through the principle of indemnity, Hitler killed 6 million Jews.") His solution is a world theocracy that will enforce proper sexual habits in order to bring about heaven on earth.
(Gotten from Salon.com's article "Bad Moon on the Rise")
Why is it that when those we are opposed to (for any reason) act hypocritically, we jump all over them as tho' their hypocrisy is the key element that proves them to be wrong. YET, when those who we agree with/side with, act hypocritically, it then becomes excuse making time? "Well, we are ALL hypocritical at some point or another. Aren't YOU?"
Yeah the brush is too broad, sorry. You;ll find more "focus" among 'evangelical Christians' (sorry, another very broad brush) concerning certain moral issues: abortion, marriage, etc. Otherwise, the brush is too broad, my friend. But this has been a drumbeat of yours for years Garth, and you can't seem to resist pointing out how evil, or potentially evil, a certain stereotypical group of Christians might be.
Well I can certainly be called an "evangelical Christian", though I don't call myself that, and I resent the broad brushes. Just like you would if I constantly broad brushed you in with 'those pinko left-wing Democrats'. I have too much respect for you to do such a thing.
Back to the topic at hand, "belief in the Bible" is defined in too many ways to be useful for comparison. Heck, most chritian groups claim they get their beliefs directly from the Bible. Well, so do I
quote: But this has been a drumbeat of yours for years Garth, and you can't seem to resist pointing out how evil, or potentially evil, a certain stereotypical group of Christians might be.
So you are 'showing your respect for me' by using that same brush here in that statement?
Would it shock you to know that most Christians would never consider you a Christian because of the your JW background.
Cults and heresies are not looked upon with an approving eye — and JW's Mormon's and TWI's are tops on the Cult awareness boards.
I was already aware of this, so it's no shock. Looking from the outside in, I can understand why it appears that way. The JW religion is Jehovah-oriented rather than Jesus-oriented. JWs don't believe in the Trinity (and I still don't) so they view Jehovah (God) as higher than Jesus, his Son, and worship God first. They view any form of Jesus-worship as creature-worship, because Jesus was created by God.
I would like to point out that just because the JW faith is primarily a cult, it doesn't mean that all followers do not have a relationship with God. To presume this would be erroneous, because we should not judge a person's standing with God. For example, when I was baptised as a JW, I saw myself getting baptised to GOD first and only. I never saw myself as being baptised to an organisation. Thus, when I was attending a Christian church, I saw no need for myself to get re-baptised, because in my heart I had already a relationship with God.
quote:JWs don't believe in the Trinity (and I still don't) so they view Jehovah (God) as higher than Jesus, his Son, and worship God first. They view any form of Jesus-worship as creature-worship, because Jesus was created by God.
That's exactly how TWI taught us as to why JC is not God. Instead of calling it creature worship they flat out call it idolatry.
You brought up the accusation in the first place about Hatch.
Oz
I used to be non-Trinitarian and but now I believe it. I have hear the JWs wrote their own bible to justify their beliefs, TWI was trying to do that with its Aramaic, but the text wouldn't support the doctrines.
I worship Jesus, the Father and the Spirit. The Bible nowhere condemns worship of Son nor Spirit.
We call non-Trinitarian beliefs heresy. I am reading a great book, "The Case for Christ," and it may be good a start for many here to see that the traditional, orthodox faith has a great, rational and historical foundation.
def, this is where trinitarian dogma trips me...worshipping the Holy spirit. no, the scripture does not condemn or prohibit worshipping the Holy spirit, though jesus tangentially prohibits praying to the Holy Spirit. But the scripture never endorses worshipping the Holy spirit, while it specifically endorses and is filled with examples of worshipping Jesus and the Father and prayer to both.
I'll throw another monkey in the wrench. In the OT there are times when the devil is called the Lord. 1 Sam. 24:1 says the Lord; while 1 Chron. 21:1 says Satan. Same exact event! If that happened once it could have happened again.
My first candidate is in Gen. 4. Cain's offering was not respected; he was bummed. Between Gen. 4:6-16 there are several references to the Lord, but is it God or the devil?
If all those references are God, why would God bait Cain into murdering his brother? That doesn't sound like God to me. Verses 9-12 could very well be God, but not the others. As the serpent, the devil deceived Eve with a disguise. Why not here with Cain?
The reason Cain's offering was not respected is because he didn't put his whole heart into the offering. It says "in process of time it came to pass" ; in other words when it was convenient for Cain he just threw something together. Abel gave the firstlings of his flock; he gave his best. Could Cain have gotten honest and put forth a better effort the next time? Sure. But the devil found an inadvertent pawn who led to other pawns who ultimately caused every imagination of the heart of man to be only evil continually.
Lotta interesting stuff in this chapter. "The Lord" said to Cain, "And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him." That word desire is interesting. Only used 3 places in the OT. In Gen. 3:16 where God says the original to Eve which is reversed to Cain, and once in Song of Solomon and we all know what THAT book is about. Hmm.
But the devil deceives people primarily by disguising himself as God. Case in point: the current TWI leadership. They glorify "God" don't they? That's what they SAY.
Plus if "the Lord" who set a mark on Cain is God, why would God want him alive? All he did was cause trouble. Five generations after Cain this guy named Lamech killed 2 people and bragged of his virtue comparing himself to his great, great, great grandpa Cain. Can't be God!
But if the "Lord" in that verse is the devil, then the devil set a mark on his primary offspring who ruled over many. Where else does THAT happen?
John are you going to make me pull out my Bible and start questoning every usage of the word "lord" and try to determine which god it is talking about? Because I think we could all get very confused trying to figure out whether it is God being nice or the devil (the deceiver) pretending to be nice or if God actually does get ....ed and kill a few people or if its the devil or if it is the devil who is the nice guy.......Oh wait...
Lets just assume God is always good and that the devil is always bad....and there you go, no problems. Right? No wait...
john, does it bug you when people say "thank you Jesus" when praying? Paul did it: 1Ti 1:12 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;
The Bible also endorses a direct, personal relationship with Jesus now...a thing not endorsed of "da Holy Ghost"
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George Aar
Why I personally reject the Bible is simply because it's the easiest case to make. Rather than spend endless hours trying to develop a plausible spin to explain why an all-knowing, all-powerful, omni
Raf
The last post on this thread was eleven years ago. Suffice it to say, MY position has changed since then.
waysider
Not only have we changed in those 11 years, the internet, in general, has changed. Social media has changed. On-line behaviors have changed. And, best of all, TWI has changed. It's shriveled up and be
GarthP2000
Def59,
Damn, I just LOVE this.
:D-->
Why is it that when those we are opposed to (for any reason) act hypocritically, we jump all over them as tho' their hypocrisy is the key element that proves them to be wrong. YET, when those who we agree with/side with, act hypocritically, it then becomes excuse making time? "Well, we are ALL hypocritical at some point or another. Aren't YOU?"
And its interesting that since we all have hypocrisy from time to time, you wold have hypocrisy too, right? ..... Yet you 'shoot from the hip' just as much as I do (yes, you do), in pointing out others flaws and hypocrisies.
Its all part of voicing our opinions in what we find flawed in other people and things.
Here's something else on my end, too.
No ....! Just ask those who find an 'ally' in Rev. Sung Yung Moon (sp?) and his Washington Times newspaper re: different conservative causes. :P Even with Moon's rather controversial views regarding why Jews died in the Holocaust, and other issues:
(Gotten from Salon.com's article "Bad Moon on the Rise")
Moral allies. Yah!
-->
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simonzelotes
This ain't no social setting...
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Raf
What the longsuffering did you just say?
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TheEvan
Yeah the brush is too broad, sorry. You;ll find more "focus" among 'evangelical Christians' (sorry, another very broad brush) concerning certain moral issues: abortion, marriage, etc. Otherwise, the brush is too broad, my friend. But this has been a drumbeat of yours for years Garth, and you can't seem to resist pointing out how evil, or potentially evil, a certain stereotypical group of Christians might be.
Well I can certainly be called an "evangelical Christian", though I don't call myself that, and I resent the broad brushes. Just like you would if I constantly broad brushed you in with 'those pinko left-wing Democrats'. I have too much respect for you to do such a thing.
Back to the topic at hand, "belief in the Bible" is defined in too many ways to be useful for comparison. Heck, most chritian groups claim they get their beliefs directly from the Bible. Well, so do I
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GarthP2000
So you are 'showing your respect for me' by using that same brush here in that statement?
Try again.
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excathedra
garth, it dawned on me DUH that i haven't responded to your posts to me. i think you're great and thanks for your acknowledging me and my thoughts
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Tom Strange
Thanks Raf for your eloquent and patient response...
...as to the current them of this thread... I'm reminded of the sequel that's going to be coming soon "Meet the Fokker's"...
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The Girl From Oz
I was already aware of this, so it's no shock. Looking from the outside in, I can understand why it appears that way. The JW religion is Jehovah-oriented rather than Jesus-oriented. JWs don't believe in the Trinity (and I still don't) so they view Jehovah (God) as higher than Jesus, his Son, and worship God first. They view any form of Jesus-worship as creature-worship, because Jesus was created by God.
I would like to point out that just because the JW faith is primarily a cult, it doesn't mean that all followers do not have a relationship with God. To presume this would be erroneous, because we should not judge a person's standing with God. For example, when I was baptised as a JW, I saw myself getting baptised to GOD first and only. I never saw myself as being baptised to an organisation. Thus, when I was attending a Christian church, I saw no need for myself to get re-baptised, because in my heart I had already a relationship with God.
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johniam
Ozgirl:
quote:JWs don't believe in the Trinity (and I still don't) so they view Jehovah (God) as higher than Jesus, his Son, and worship God first. They view any form of Jesus-worship as creature-worship, because Jesus was created by God.
That's exactly how TWI taught us as to why JC is not God. Instead of calling it creature worship they flat out call it idolatry.
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def59
Garth
You brought up the accusation in the first place about Hatch.
Oz
I used to be non-Trinitarian and but now I believe it. I have hear the JWs wrote their own bible to justify their beliefs, TWI was trying to do that with its Aramaic, but the text wouldn't support the doctrines.
I worship Jesus, the Father and the Spirit. The Bible nowhere condemns worship of Son nor Spirit.
We call non-Trinitarian beliefs heresy. I am reading a great book, "The Case for Christ," and it may be good a start for many here to see that the traditional, orthodox faith has a great, rational and historical foundation.
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TheEvan
def, this is where trinitarian dogma trips me...worshipping the Holy spirit. no, the scripture does not condemn or prohibit worshipping the Holy spirit, though jesus tangentially prohibits praying to the Holy Spirit. But the scripture never endorses worshipping the Holy spirit, while it specifically endorses and is filled with examples of worshipping Jesus and the Father and prayer to both.
Can you enlighten me?
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lindyhopper
Oz,
So you have a hard time with many denominational churches, seem to still be looking for answers, don't believe in the trinity?
Have I got a cult for you!
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johniam
Evan: Where does the scripture endorse praying to Jesus?
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The Girl From Oz
LOL @ Lindyhopper
;)-->
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The Girl From Oz
Who's "we"?
I ask because I've attended Anglican churches (I think you call them Protestant) where they didn't regard non-trinity belief as heresy.
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lindyhopper
We = THE ones with THE truth.
which is why it is clearly heresy.
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johniam
I'll throw another monkey in the wrench. In the OT there are times when the devil is called the Lord. 1 Sam. 24:1 says the Lord; while 1 Chron. 21:1 says Satan. Same exact event! If that happened once it could have happened again.
My first candidate is in Gen. 4. Cain's offering was not respected; he was bummed. Between Gen. 4:6-16 there are several references to the Lord, but is it God or the devil?
If all those references are God, why would God bait Cain into murdering his brother? That doesn't sound like God to me. Verses 9-12 could very well be God, but not the others. As the serpent, the devil deceived Eve with a disguise. Why not here with Cain?
The reason Cain's offering was not respected is because he didn't put his whole heart into the offering. It says "in process of time it came to pass" ; in other words when it was convenient for Cain he just threw something together. Abel gave the firstlings of his flock; he gave his best. Could Cain have gotten honest and put forth a better effort the next time? Sure. But the devil found an inadvertent pawn who led to other pawns who ultimately caused every imagination of the heart of man to be only evil continually.
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johniam
Lotta interesting stuff in this chapter. "The Lord" said to Cain, "And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him." That word desire is interesting. Only used 3 places in the OT. In Gen. 3:16 where God says the original to Eve which is reversed to Cain, and once in Song of Solomon and we all know what THAT book is about. Hmm.
But the devil deceives people primarily by disguising himself as God. Case in point: the current TWI leadership. They glorify "God" don't they? That's what they SAY.
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johniam
Plus if "the Lord" who set a mark on Cain is God, why would God want him alive? All he did was cause trouble. Five generations after Cain this guy named Lamech killed 2 people and bragged of his virtue comparing himself to his great, great, great grandpa Cain. Can't be God!
But if the "Lord" in that verse is the devil, then the devil set a mark on his primary offspring who ruled over many. Where else does THAT happen?
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lindyhopper
Refiner, can we confirm that mark as meaning he made him black? lol
I see where this is going.
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lindyhopper
John are you going to make me pull out my Bible and start questoning every usage of the word "lord" and try to determine which god it is talking about? Because I think we could all get very confused trying to figure out whether it is God being nice or the devil (the deceiver) pretending to be nice or if God actually does get ....ed and kill a few people or if its the devil or if it is the devil who is the nice guy.......Oh wait...
Lets just assume God is always good and that the devil is always bad....and there you go, no problems. Right? No wait...
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Oakspear
Don't forget that generally THE LORD is translated from YHWH, Yahweh (or Jehovah), and not from Adonai, the word for lord.
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The Girl From Oz
No no no, it's the JWs who have THE Truth.
;)-->
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TheEvan
john, does it bug you when people say "thank you Jesus" when praying? Paul did it: 1Ti 1:12 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;
The Bible also endorses a direct, personal relationship with Jesus now...a thing not endorsed of "da Holy Ghost"
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