As a non traditional christian I find the church's perception of life to be quite anal at times. Fact is the world would be a much better place if they simply admitted what some realise already, that they really don't have a clue sometimes.
It would make it so much easier than simply telling people ya got to accept it on faith etc.
Derway wasn't the only cult I ran into, the RC's are just as cultic in nature as are (in some respects) the baptists and they ALL claim ownership of all truth and consign to hell (by their theology at least) many who disagree with their doctine (the ultimate mark n avoid).
I see God as a rather disinterested being, more concerned with his celestial plaything overall than our part in it all. Fact is I think he sorta started this thing called existance and then went off to play with something else like his hot car collection or sumthing (I feel this way particularly after significant *events* happen).
At times I question the perfect all knowing all powerful god theory as it leaves out one crucial factor (imo). If God is and was perfect, then how did corruption creep in seeings how everything that exists origionally came from this all knowing and all perfect God? I understand the debil snookered him, but this is god we're talking about. I hear of free will and all that but if God is perfect and only perfect things come from him then where did the evil or bad choices that mankind seems adept at finding and making get here in the first place?
TheEvan made a comment several pages back about when he used to be a "literalist" when he read the bible, but now he reads it more for inspiration, looking for the moral aspects. I agree.
Way-think is still prevalent in people's minds when it comes to their understanding of the bible...not so much in doctrine perhaps, but in the "foundational assumptions" that they make concerning the book. Veepee crammed his "mathimatical exactness, scientific precision" concepts down everyones throats. "There's a purpose for everything God says, when He says it, how He says it, where He says it, to whom He says it,etc, etc, blah, blah, blah". The average wayfer ends up like the guy who bought a new car and spent all his time reading the owners manual...never got around to driving the car....bibliolatry?
The bible was written over a looooong period of time by a lot of different people. There are some books of the bible that didn't quite make the KJV...others were tampered with...translation problems...deliberate forgeries...and who says that God told these writers the EXACT WORDS to use anyway?...Maybe some of em wrote it on their own...maybe others were told to write and never did...Maybe the Pauline epistles are no more valid than some letters sent out by twi's trunk Coordinator to his/her respective limb coordinators. Maybe God gave them "concepts" and then they put it into their "own words"...maybe this microscopic examination of every nuance of the book was never intended for us by God.
If I remember correctly, the 1st century Christians didn't even have the new testament in written form...Jesus never wrote anything in the bible...and who were all these guys anyway?
Perhaps the difference between the old testament God and the new testament God was that the writers of each testament lived hundreds of years apart from each other and the concept of God had "evolved" over the years. Maybe the "difference in God" doesn't even exist...maybe it's more of a difference in people...makes more sense to me. Maybe God is hitting His forehead like Homer Simpson and saying "Doh, that ain't what I told you to write!"
Maybe it's all made up..maybe there is no God...but then again...maybe there is a God but nobody's ever called Him by the right name or understood "jack squat" about Him...A lot of maybes...
I guess it boils down to a personal choice. Seeing we are all born as independant free-will moral agents, I suspect that God would deal with us individually. I am glad that I am knowledgeable of the bible but I don't approach God that way anymore.
One of the most reasonable posts I've read Uncle Hairy.
Def,
Actually, I did read your post. Believe it or not I have even read the Bible once or twice.
But read my post...
Once again you equate disciplining a child with killing a child. Now I am not personally offended nor am I crying. I have not had to live thru nearly as much as those who God is ....ed at. I live a wonderful life inspite of being an infidel.
However, as I said, I find it a little strange and a little like a battered spouce that you didn't even mention God ever doing anything bad, rather you focus on how he really is a good father, sorry he killed these people, but he gave them a chance....
I understand that if there is a God he can damn well do what he pleases, but the analogy of Him being a father is a human analogy. Think of a human father, that is what you are supposed to do. Now should a human father kill his kid for disobeying a few times, hell even if he never obeys? Even if this is a OT father most would think he is a nutcase.
So my point is...don't say father or at least not "loving father", that is misleading. Most fathers are loving,but we don't usually refer to the murdering ones as "loving". Those one we usually call murderers or psychos or *******s.
Believing in a god takes faith, believing that the god of the OT is a loving father doesn't take faith, it takes ignoring the killing and the plagues and such and/or unreasonably justifying those actions.
Sorry, I don't mean to pick on you, Def.
I just told my kid not to touch my glass of water twice. You know what I'm gonna do? Move the glass.
I too am an ex-JW, but unlike Refiner, I'm also ex-TWI.
How would I feel if someone who's not ex-TWI showed up and started posting on how we all need to accept the Trinity? Don't know. It hasn't happened (I'm assuming DA Reed is ex-TWI, but I don't know that for sure).
Do people who are not ex-TWI have to respect some kind of boundaries before posting? Is it trolling if they try to start an interesting/controversial discussion? I should hope not. But at the same time I understand how folks like Dot and Goey are feeling.
When George Aar or Sudo post their anti-Bible sentiments, I tend to stay out of their way. I also have no comment on Refiner's rejection of Christ (or anyone else's). I wish I could convince you otherwise, but there's nothing I can say that you have not already heard, is there?
I say this topic is interesting to people who are ex-TWI. I'm not happy about it, but I'm just one voice among over 100, and my views have been welcome here. If Refiner's acting like a troll, his posts will ultimately bear that out. Trolls don't tend to stick around or continue posting. They're more hit-and-run as far as I can tell. Refiner seems to be interested in conversation, and wants to see how ex-TWI folks respond to his viewpoints. Maybe my viewpoint is biased. I'm more interested in his comparisons between TWI and JWs. If that means I have to put up with his Christ-rejection, well, I don't see a way around it.
By the way (shameless plug alert) if anyone is interested in a forum where their faith in Christ won't be challenged, there's always that other message board. Click on the logo and you'll go right to it. (Click on the name and you'll go to my NAHJ campaign site).
quote:Welcome to the (new) Living Epistles Society Forum.
Please feel free to register at any time.
This is a Christian message board. As such, we expect people to post and respond according to Christian principles. We will, of course, be as flexible as we can, as it is not our desire to judge our brothers and sisters in Christ. However, we must insist on certain rules.
First and foremost, no profanity. And no "substitute" profanity. We're not talking about words like "heck." That's fine. But using symbols instead of letters or using "ph" instead of "f," just to get away with posting a profanity, will not be accepted. Posts containing profanity will be edited without notice.
Second, since this is a Christian message board, we will not make room for deliberately non-Christian viewpoints. This is not the appropriate venue for someone to have his or her Christian faith undermined. Atheists and agnostics, I ask that you give us our space here. I strongly recommend The Greasespot Cafe for those who want to challenge the basis of Christian beliefs, or who wish to entertain viewpoints that are not Christian. (It's not that I don't love you guys. It's that, if this place is going to be the same thing as the Greasespot Cafe, then why bother? The Cafe ain't broke. Why would I try to fix it?)
Third, this board is not limited to orthodox Christianity, nor is it hostile to orthodox Christianity. Covenant Trinitarian Calvinists who believe that the dead are alive now and that the Church will go through the Tribulation are just as welcome as Dispensationalist Biblical Unitarian Free-Will Theists who believe the dead do not rise until the return of Christ and that the Church will not go through the tribulation. Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, active members of The Way International, Seventh Day Adventists, Baptists, Lutherans, Catholics: all are welcome to post here. This site endorses none of these groups, and asks only that we treat each other with mutual love and respect.
We reserve the right to implement new rules as situations warrant. We don't expect that to be a pressing need.
This is like, a big rejection week. Spiderman, Christ, who's next - Michelle Pfeiffer?
I guess the way I'm feeling about this thread topic is how some other people say they feel when I tell them about why I think Jesus Christ is neat-o keen- "who gives a fug that you believe what you believe, go believe in the tooth fairy if you want, it'll do as much good".
For some reason I don't care. I'm not hurting anyone by what I believe, there's even cause to see that I help others now and again by and with what I believe. If someone else doesn't believe the same way, fine. We can be friends, or we can each go our own way, whatever. But the second it goes over the line in to someone harrassing or preventing me from my freedom to do whatever the fluk I want as a proud citizen of the You Nited States I've got a problem. Other than that, we can all make fun of each other as much as want is how I feel. It's the American Way and I'm a dammed proud American.
I guess I don't really have a comment come to think about it, Refiner, other than - okay.
"I do not understand why a Jehovah Witmess comes to an X tWI site to debunk Christ."...
Fallacious statement.
"But I do find it ODD to say the least why refiner is here... he is not here because he was once in TWI "....
Obnviously dot, in your mind it makes no sense that an ex witness would go to a TWI board, or that an ex mormon would go to a Witness board.
But some of us like variety in our lives.
Still if you want to remain coddled in your little internet safe haven thats your business.
"so far all I have seen is a lot of threads started by him that seem to reject Christ."...
Hey Dot. What threads are those? You are looking for A) threads started by me. B) Threads that are posted by me on the subject of rejecting and hating Jesus.
Now Ive only been here a month dot and have posted in Doctrinal, "Open" and "About" Forums. So those threads shouldnt be hard to find.
I think most of us are not just here because we are ex way....but ex-cult members. The similarities between theJW and TWI are intriguing. I also think that it is helpful for some of us to realise us ex-way folks are not alone in our experiences. Even if we know this intilectually, it is nice to converse with one of these "outsiders".
Secondly, contrary to popular belief, many of us aetheist/agnostic types (especially agnostic) are still looking for answers. That being so, we sometimes ask uncomfortable questions or make uncomfortable and maybe annoying statements, in the hope of getting a better answer. But, unfortunately, it is usually as Raf said, we've heard it all before. But there is always hope, because after all, the idea of a loving God or loving heavenly father is rather appealing...as is eternal life etc. Things just don't sit right for some of us....so we continue to ask the tough questions.
The way I see it, Refiner came across our site, met a bunch of ex-cult members that actually know a lot of Bible, and stated the reason for his belief or lack of belief and asked for a lagitemate answer. Unfortunately, questioning the answers is not something some people are used to. Or something.
I don't think we should chase off every non exwayfer that comes across the G spot.SOme of us that go against the grain welcome this sort of discussion.
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George Aar
Why I personally reject the Bible is simply because it's the easiest case to make. Rather than spend endless hours trying to develop a plausible spin to explain why an all-knowing, all-powerful, omni
Raf
The last post on this thread was eleven years ago. Suffice it to say, MY position has changed since then.
waysider
Not only have we changed in those 11 years, the internet, in general, has changed. Social media has changed. On-line behaviors have changed. And, best of all, TWI has changed. It's shriveled up and be
Zixar
But since you seem to take offense at what I've said, let me ask you this:
A copperhead snake, a pit bull, and Adolf Hitler wander into your yard, but you only have one bullet. Who do you shoot?
Let's see, if I shoot the human being, I can save the lives of six million Jews, plus a million or so soldiers on both sides...
Or I could shoot one of the animals, saving two or three people at the very most....
Gee, what a tough call to make...
-->
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GarthP2000
Zix,
You're losing your touch, dude. Your examples to back up your point are becoming more and more frayed.
I've seen you debate better than this, really I have.
-->
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herbiejuan
I'd shoot Hitler, crush the snakes head thereby killing it and either pet the dog or call animal control.
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GarthP2000
Okay, scratch my last post here, as it really didn't need to be said.
Sorry about that Zix.
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herbiejuan
As a non traditional christian I find the church's perception of life to be quite anal at times. Fact is the world would be a much better place if they simply admitted what some realise already, that they really don't have a clue sometimes.
It would make it so much easier than simply telling people ya got to accept it on faith etc.
Derway wasn't the only cult I ran into, the RC's are just as cultic in nature as are (in some respects) the baptists and they ALL claim ownership of all truth and consign to hell (by their theology at least) many who disagree with their doctine (the ultimate mark n avoid).
I see God as a rather disinterested being, more concerned with his celestial plaything overall than our part in it all. Fact is I think he sorta started this thing called existance and then went off to play with something else like his hot car collection or sumthing (I feel this way particularly after significant *events* happen).
At times I question the perfect all knowing all powerful god theory as it leaves out one crucial factor (imo). If God is and was perfect, then how did corruption creep in seeings how everything that exists origionally came from this all knowing and all perfect God? I understand the debil snookered him, but this is god we're talking about. I hear of free will and all that but if God is perfect and only perfect things come from him then where did the evil or bad choices that mankind seems adept at finding and making get here in the first place?
It's a puzzlement to me that's fer sure
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GrouchoMarxJr
TheEvan made a comment several pages back about when he used to be a "literalist" when he read the bible, but now he reads it more for inspiration, looking for the moral aspects. I agree.
Way-think is still prevalent in people's minds when it comes to their understanding of the bible...not so much in doctrine perhaps, but in the "foundational assumptions" that they make concerning the book. Veepee crammed his "mathimatical exactness, scientific precision" concepts down everyones throats. "There's a purpose for everything God says, when He says it, how He says it, where He says it, to whom He says it,etc, etc, blah, blah, blah". The average wayfer ends up like the guy who bought a new car and spent all his time reading the owners manual...never got around to driving the car....bibliolatry?
The bible was written over a looooong period of time by a lot of different people. There are some books of the bible that didn't quite make the KJV...others were tampered with...translation problems...deliberate forgeries...and who says that God told these writers the EXACT WORDS to use anyway?...Maybe some of em wrote it on their own...maybe others were told to write and never did...Maybe the Pauline epistles are no more valid than some letters sent out by twi's trunk Coordinator to his/her respective limb coordinators. Maybe God gave them "concepts" and then they put it into their "own words"...maybe this microscopic examination of every nuance of the book was never intended for us by God.
If I remember correctly, the 1st century Christians didn't even have the new testament in written form...Jesus never wrote anything in the bible...and who were all these guys anyway?
Perhaps the difference between the old testament God and the new testament God was that the writers of each testament lived hundreds of years apart from each other and the concept of God had "evolved" over the years. Maybe the "difference in God" doesn't even exist...maybe it's more of a difference in people...makes more sense to me. Maybe God is hitting His forehead like Homer Simpson and saying "Doh, that ain't what I told you to write!"
Maybe it's all made up..maybe there is no God...but then again...maybe there is a God but nobody's ever called Him by the right name or understood "jack squat" about Him...A lot of maybes...
I guess it boils down to a personal choice. Seeing we are all born as independant free-will moral agents, I suspect that God would deal with us individually. I am glad that I am knowledgeable of the bible but I don't approach God that way anymore.
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def59
Lindy
Read my post. God gives people chance after chance after chance. He shows his love to Israel, because (GASP) HE chose them.
Got a problem with that? Don't come crying to me.
He shows his love to others by giving them chances to repent. When they don't, there are consequences.
Same in the NT, remember Annas and Saphria? Christian jews who got zapped.
And when I use the word "Zapped" it can mean a slew of things. People get so offended around here.
-->
And what parent among us has not had to correct their child of bad behaviour at least once?
God shows his love throughout the OT if you will open your eyes. But that might take faith and some people aren't ready to do that.
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def59
I'll put in a plug for Lee Strobel's Case for Christ here.
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Zixar
Why isn't this in the Doctrinal forum by now? God knows we've been through all this before...
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excathedra
you can always click on the "notify pawtucket" button
:)-->
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lindyhopper
One of the most reasonable posts I've read Uncle Hairy.
Def,
Actually, I did read your post. Believe it or not I have even read the Bible once or twice.
But read my post...
Once again you equate disciplining a child with killing a child. Now I am not personally offended nor am I crying. I have not had to live thru nearly as much as those who God is ....ed at. I live a wonderful life inspite of being an infidel.
However, as I said, I find it a little strange and a little like a battered spouce that you didn't even mention God ever doing anything bad, rather you focus on how he really is a good father, sorry he killed these people, but he gave them a chance....
I understand that if there is a God he can damn well do what he pleases, but the analogy of Him being a father is a human analogy. Think of a human father, that is what you are supposed to do. Now should a human father kill his kid for disobeying a few times, hell even if he never obeys? Even if this is a OT father most would think he is a nutcase.
So my point is...don't say father or at least not "loving father", that is misleading. Most fathers are loving,but we don't usually refer to the murdering ones as "loving". Those one we usually call murderers or psychos or *******s.
Believing in a god takes faith, believing that the god of the OT is a loving father doesn't take faith, it takes ignoring the killing and the plagues and such and/or unreasonably justifying those actions.
Sorry, I don't mean to pick on you, Def.
I just told my kid not to touch my glass of water twice. You know what I'm gonna do? Move the glass.
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Dot Matrix
nevermind
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GarthP2000
Dot,
ditto.
:)-->
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GarthP2000
Looks like you and me were posting at the same time. AND while the whole thread was being moved.
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Raf
I'm having a bit of a hard time with this.
I too am an ex-JW, but unlike Refiner, I'm also ex-TWI.
How would I feel if someone who's not ex-TWI showed up and started posting on how we all need to accept the Trinity? Don't know. It hasn't happened (I'm assuming DA Reed is ex-TWI, but I don't know that for sure).
Do people who are not ex-TWI have to respect some kind of boundaries before posting? Is it trolling if they try to start an interesting/controversial discussion? I should hope not. But at the same time I understand how folks like Dot and Goey are feeling.
When George Aar or Sudo post their anti-Bible sentiments, I tend to stay out of their way. I also have no comment on Refiner's rejection of Christ (or anyone else's). I wish I could convince you otherwise, but there's nothing I can say that you have not already heard, is there?
I say this topic is interesting to people who are ex-TWI. I'm not happy about it, but I'm just one voice among over 100, and my views have been welcome here. If Refiner's acting like a troll, his posts will ultimately bear that out. Trolls don't tend to stick around or continue posting. They're more hit-and-run as far as I can tell. Refiner seems to be interested in conversation, and wants to see how ex-TWI folks respond to his viewpoints. Maybe my viewpoint is biased. I'm more interested in his comparisons between TWI and JWs. If that means I have to put up with his Christ-rejection, well, I don't see a way around it.
Does anyone else?
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Dot Matrix
Think what you want you all, I will think what I want.
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Raf
By the way (shameless plug alert) if anyone is interested in a forum where their faith in Christ won't be challenged, there's always that other message board. Click on the logo and you'll go right to it. (Click on the name and you'll go to my NAHJ campaign site).
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excathedra
i don't get it. i really don't. i'm glad to see someone here who wasn't in twi. i feel like i have an exwayfer wayfer brain sometimes.
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Dot Matrix
Raf
Thanks I was there and it was cool but I had trouble posting.
Then I had trouble with me email to write you about it.
I will try again.
Love to you.
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socks
This is like, a big rejection week. Spiderman, Christ, who's next - Michelle Pfeiffer?
I guess the way I'm feeling about this thread topic is how some other people say they feel when I tell them about why I think Jesus Christ is neat-o keen- "who gives a fug that you believe what you believe, go believe in the tooth fairy if you want, it'll do as much good".
For some reason I don't care. I'm not hurting anyone by what I believe, there's even cause to see that I help others now and again by and with what I believe. If someone else doesn't believe the same way, fine. We can be friends, or we can each go our own way, whatever. But the second it goes over the line in to someone harrassing or preventing me from my freedom to do whatever the fluk I want as a proud citizen of the You Nited States I've got a problem. Other than that, we can all make fun of each other as much as want is how I feel. It's the American Way and I'm a dammed proud American.
I guess I don't really have a comment come to think about it, Refiner, other than - okay.
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Dot Matrix
Speaking of Michelle Piefer...
Kidding...
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Refiner
Dot said:
"I do not understand why a Jehovah Witmess comes to an X tWI site to debunk Christ."...
Fallacious statement.
"But I do find it ODD to say the least why refiner is here... he is not here because he was once in TWI "....
Obnviously dot, in your mind it makes no sense that an ex witness would go to a TWI board, or that an ex mormon would go to a Witness board.
But some of us like variety in our lives.
Still if you want to remain coddled in your little internet safe haven thats your business.
"so far all I have seen is a lot of threads started by him that seem to reject Christ."...
Hey Dot. What threads are those? You are looking for A) threads started by me. B) Threads that are posted by me on the subject of rejecting and hating Jesus.
Now Ive only been here a month dot and have posted in Doctrinal, "Open" and "About" Forums. So those threads shouldnt be hard to find.
Links will suffice.
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lindyhopper
Dot,
I think most of us are not just here because we are ex way....but ex-cult members. The similarities between theJW and TWI are intriguing. I also think that it is helpful for some of us to realise us ex-way folks are not alone in our experiences. Even if we know this intilectually, it is nice to converse with one of these "outsiders".
Secondly, contrary to popular belief, many of us aetheist/agnostic types (especially agnostic) are still looking for answers. That being so, we sometimes ask uncomfortable questions or make uncomfortable and maybe annoying statements, in the hope of getting a better answer. But, unfortunately, it is usually as Raf said, we've heard it all before. But there is always hope, because after all, the idea of a loving God or loving heavenly father is rather appealing...as is eternal life etc. Things just don't sit right for some of us....so we continue to ask the tough questions.
The way I see it, Refiner came across our site, met a bunch of ex-cult members that actually know a lot of Bible, and stated the reason for his belief or lack of belief and asked for a lagitemate answer. Unfortunately, questioning the answers is not something some people are used to. Or something.
I don't think we should chase off every non exwayfer that comes across the G spot.SOme of us that go against the grain welcome this sort of discussion.
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Refiner
By the way. If I had known that this thread would generate the aggravation that it has generated I would never have posted it.
In retropect I was in error calling the thread "Why I reject Christ".
Anyone who cares to read it will notice that I havent breathed a WORD about Christ. I should have called it "Why I reject the OT God".
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