I used to read the Bible in a very literalist sense, going into full Wierwille DECODE mode.(a/ka the mythical "rightly divided word" which, BTW, does not exist). And i'd end up in arguments like I see in this thread.
Okay, ON THE SUrFACE is the blood & guts. But can't we go past the surface. Everybody seems to want to read it for INFORMATION. I suggest that reading for personal moral and spiritual instruction yields a more satisfying picture of the accounts. I see spiritual truth applicable in my life from the slaughter of the Amalekites (see my post above).
Your reply makes my point as to why these discussion are generally fruitless.
For example you gloss over or make fun of my point about what the meaning of "badly" was back then, showing your (intentional?) ignorance of OT culture and your lack of willingness to do any actual investigation - and then simply declare it "lame" by fiat... Think it through Garth - use your brain instead of your emotions.
I could hardy think that debate with you on this would be anymore than trying have a civil conversation a mud fence. I find your style childish and annoying anyway - Certainly not conducive to intelligent and thoughtful discussion.
And what's up with all the strawman stuff about atheists in prision or on death row and religious people and crime? It is irrelevant.
quote: ..”Refiner, no disrespect intended but I serioulsly doubt that you made your decision to reject Christ and ultimately God purely based upon reading the OT and seeing the verses you mentioned in your original post…..
….My guess is that your revelation of the biblical events you mentioned you came after your rejection of Jesus and God, and are being used as justification for a decision you had already made.”
Well I am pleased that you understand my “real” thinking more than I understand it myself.
That must be a gratifying skill to possess, that of mind reader and comprehender of the motives and emotional history of other people.
quote: ..” Atheists have been using these same verses to argue the unfairness and cruelty of God for a long time,”
Hmm, well maybe theres a reason for that. Maybe its because God appears unfair and cruel in those scriptures, so that’s why the Atheists and agnostics use them to demonstrate that god is unfair and cruel. Im Just taking a wild stab in the dark guessing there.
quote: ”yet they seldom seem seek to understand what could have been the reasoning behind these "cruel" events. “
You mean that the “Children” the bear mauled were actually "adults"? And that to call someone “baldy” was actually calling out a rank blasphemy , a mockery, against God?
Has it occurred to yourself that such explanations are generated by Christians who see the harshness of their OT God and feel the need to prove that He was justified in taking the action he did?
You certainly get points for naming a thread in a way to get a voluminous response. So many I haven't read them all - but read enough to see a pattern that I see repeated often here and saw a lot when I was a follower in the way.
That pattern is people have a belief they like. They justify that belief with varying degrees fo logic, scripture etc. When someone asks a question as you did, people jump through all kinds of hoops to come up with an explanation that does not negate their core belief. Sometimes the explanations make sense, sometimes they don't sometimes they border on lunacy. But usually folks don't realize this because to do so would call into question a belief they are comfortable with.
My own belief is that the questions are more useful than the answers when it comes to many unproveable aspects of life. And of course I have many explanations to justify that belief. Enjoy!
Some of you are comparing the killing of PEOPLE to putting down sick animals or eliminating dangerous snakes or putting a bullet in the head of a pit bull.
Goey might well be right. The bear mauled children might well have been 30 year old Baal worshippers denigrating God.
I cant say. Nor can I see that in a surface reading of the text itself.
But then Im not a researcher into Greek / Hebrew word meanings like most here are, and which Goey is an expert in. A practise he apparently developed during his church experience, and which the church encouraged and fostered.
My experience was different, although I must say there are some similarities between Goeys explanation of the children who were mauled by the bears, and the JW explanation that the thousands killed by plague after King David committed the “Census sin” were all wicked people anyway, preselected for extermination, and marked in the black book of death for the next time David botched the job and God found it necessary to send a punishing and selective plague thru the land to punish David.
Yes, perhaps a correct understanding of the original language texts may well demonstrate it was a selective plague singling out only the unrighteous. I cant say.
Personally Im more interested in how Goey developed his ability to read the true minds and thought patterns, thru the medium of a computer screen no less, of total strangers around the other side of the planet.
This reminds me of another great verse....it went something like .....
"Thou shalt not kill, but if thine tormentors shall hurl insults at you that really .... thee off, then thou shalt proclaim, "Sticks and stones shall break my bones asunder but how doth a bear on thine a$$ feel?"
quote:Well I am pleased that you understand my “real” thinking more than I understand it myself. That must be a gratifying skill to possess, that of mind reader and comprehender of the motives and emotional history of other people.
quote:Personally Im more interested in how Goey developed his ability to read the true minds and thought patterns, thru the medium of a computer screen no less, of total strangers around the other side of the planet.
Now ain't that the pot calling the kettle black? Here is a fellow who has offered numerous opinions on what how people think, opinions on a cult he was never involved in - yet when one dares offer a "guess" about his thinking he whines in protest! Come now ..
Refiner, are you really here to learn and understand others opinions like you said? It seems kind of doubtful to me considering you are posting on a site where you are basically an outsider, with no background in TWI - and you are starting topics like "Why I reject Jesus" in a place like GS cafe?
quote: “Are you really here to learn and understand others opinions like you said? It seems kind of doubtful to me considering you are posting on a site where you are basically an outsider, with no background in TWI …”
Now see clearly Im here to learn. How can I not learn on a new site dealing with a subject I know nothing about? Impossible. Yet you think Im not here to learn.
Tell you what Ive learnt so far… Ive learnt some basic TWI doctrine. Ive learnt some things about VPW, Ive learnt some TWI loaded language terms and Ive learnt who the amusing posters are, and who the resident experts are.
So to think that I haven’t learnt anything or am not here to learn is incorrect. Yet you indicate that you think Im not here to learn.
Im here to learn, and Im here to pass on what I know already.
And I know PLENTY about certain things and get massive response to my posts, as you might have noticed.
quote: “you are posting on a site where you are basically an outsider, with no background in TWI - and you are starting topics like "Why I reject Jesus" in a place like this?”
Is there something special about this site such that a topic “why I reject Christ” cant be posted here? Clue me in. My post was an explanation as to why I reject the IDEA of believing in Christ. I was curious to see whether anyone could convince me different.
But you think in absolute terms Goey and misinterprete my posting. To be frank I just cant be bothered explaining it to you further than that. Youre probably the last person here that Id bother trying to explain my thinking and experience to, and that’s the fact of the matter, cause you take things said too literally and Im simply not interested in engaging in an online ego war with you.
quote:It seems kind of doubtful to me considering you are posting on a site where you are basically an outsider, with no background in TWI - and you are starting topics like "Why I reject Jesus" in a place like this?
In other words, you are only welcome here if you think exactly like Goey. -->
Goey, I've noticed that you haven't posted on my thread "Religion and Faith after Leaving A Cult". I don't know if it's because you haven't read it, but if you haven't, I'd suggest you do. Why? So that you can learn that TWI is no more unique than many other cults. There are many similarities between the various cults, and I know that we can learn from each other.
Gaining this kind of knowledge helps us to grow and heal from our experiences in our respective cults. If we don't try to understand where we came from, then we are at risk of being hoodwinked again. It may not be another religion, but it could be a bad relationship, business deal or simply making bad choices in life in general.
I know Refiner personally, and he has alot to offer this board. Now, everyone has a choice when he posts. You can choose to read his posts, and even comment; or if you don't like them, simply ignore them and concentrate on the posters you do like. It's simple netiquette that is practised on other discussion boards.
quote: In other words, you are only welcome here if you think exactly like Goey.
Nope, not at all. What a gross misrepresentation there Dorothy! If you had much of a clue about me you would know that that was not true at all. I welcome spirited debate and diverse opinions. Yet I am not afraid to call them as I see them.
I don't expect anyone here to think like I do. But I do expect someone who freely shares his own opinions about how others think, and presents himself as a cult expert, to not whine and come of so puffy when others speculate about his thinking.
And yes, it does bug me a bit that Refiner, who has absolutely no background in TWI is now one of the most prolific posters here at GS, and he starts topics like "Why I Reject Jesus".
You know, if anyone really took a close look at the OT they would find a God of grace and mercy and justice and judgement.
I know judgement is a bad word in today's world. After all who can judge anyone? but this thread started off with a judgement by Refiner on God and Jesus.
I see the OT stories and know that God is Light and in him is no darkness at all. In all cases, the people who were killed did so after rejecting the true God for idols made of stone and wood.
But God also treated his own people with a hard hand at times. What loving parent isn't going to discipline from time to time.
And there were times that God was going to destroy people and nations, but he stopped when they repented. (See Jonah).
Curious how no one ever seems to bring that story up.
God said he raises nations up and sends them down.
How can he do this, the critics scream.
Great thing about God, he doens't listen to critics, who are just sinful men and have no clue what God's holiness is all about.
Examples of God's grace.
Adam and Eve sin, God prepares skins for them so they will not freeze in the world outside Eden.
Noah
God lets his wife and kids and daughters-in-law come along. The rest? Well they had 100 years to change their minds, but they chose not to.
Babel
Man wants to be like God, so he builds a tower. God, who has promised not to wipe out the planet again, just twists the tongues so they walk off and form people groups.
Abraham
Repeatedly lies and distrusts God, but God gives him a son.
Isaac
Repeatedly lies and distrusts God, but God gives him a son.
Jacob
Wrestles with God, but does become the son of promise and gives birth to a nation.
I could go on, but no one likes long posts.
Suffice to say, if someone got zapped in the OT as people like to say, then they probably crossed a line. It wasn't always one sin and your gone.
Some of you are comparing the killing of __PEOPLE__ to putting down sick animals or eliminating dangerous snakes or putting a bullet in the head of a pit bull.
And don't see anything wrong with it.
Well Oakspear, none of the book religions have ever thought it wrong to kill people in the name of God and still don't.
Some of us have woken up from the TWI elitism of natural man being no better than an animal in only that he is body and soul (no spirit) and no better than an animal ----Advanced Class 1979 and don't forget all the dead corpse stuff walking around, and statements like "You can't offend a corpse." in regards to witnessing to them.
Makes people much more easier to kill off and get rid of when they don't fit into the agenda as they are only as innocent as copperheads. Jepthah from the Old Testament sacrificed his daughter to the fire when he came home from battle, and Abraham WAS going to MURDER his son. So it seems that the excuse that people are nothing but a bunch of devil baal worshipping idiots is kinda lost there as many treated their own offspring the same way; it just seems to matter what GOD's name was used to justify it that seems to make it right or wrong.
It seems that the book religions have always had a 'fit for life' method of unnatural selecton to see who got to live on. Governments have adapted it as well and carry it on in genocide, pure blood bull****.
Last night on the news, NBC got into a town to interview a relative of the most wanted terrorist, and when questioned about how his borther/cousin (whatever) could cut off the heads of innocent men, his reply was "His religion told him to do so." Duh. And so does the OT tell people to do it. At least this guy was honest about what he believes his religion to say.
And this guy is related to the guy who stood behind that bounded 26 year old KID and hacked his head off, seeing him as the enemy, no innocent than anyone has seen any religious enemy and probably compared him to the spawn of the great satan usa in order to justify his murder of a young man. His God orders him to murder innocents in the name of spiritual purity and obedience.
The OT God ordered the same thing for the same reasons.
Again when it's the wrong God it is wrong; when it's the God of a person, there is always a good reasoning behind it or a 'deeper insight.'
Gotta wonder about religions that need the sword and stake to make converts.
Don't run off too quickly Refried. and don't give Goey too much of a hard time, he is going into surgrey. He doesn't need any extra stress. But I totally understand where you are coming from.
....how easily we attribute God with this Father/parent title. "Oh parents have to discipline they're children." We've been over this so many times before. The only parental figure the god of the OT resembles is an abusive one. People that try and justify it, as Def just did, sound like an abused spouse trying to explain to their worried friends that he really is a good man.....nevermind him allowing his kids to die and/or be tortured just because they didn't do what he said...really he loves us so much.
I always see disciplining our children being equated with God doing something like blinding someone or killing them.
Another point is the blood/race issue. We talk of God disciplining or punishing his kids, but most of the time it wasn't his kids...it was those other bi-peds the EVil ones. They were not the chosen people because they and their ancestors did not do as da God said. So If you do not obey God then you are not his kid. That sounds just like a great human parent, infact i have already disowned my 13 month old because he just won't do as I say. I feel bad but it was his choices, he tied my hands. I'm just trying my best to be an imitator of my loving heavenly father.... -->
Most analogies that folks use for God only work when we want it to and choose to ignore the times that it doesn't work.
And Def, I don't think judgement is a bad word. It is how we get thru life. We make good ones and bad ones. I make judgements of people that screw up, but then apologise and rectify the situation, or of those that persivere thru unbelievable circumstances, and of say someone who says DO NOT KILL in one breath but then say go murder every man, woman and child in the next town over.
I make the call for me and you for you. Apparently many think that my last person was not any worse than the two previous ones. I find that rather interesting....and a little scary.
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George Aar
Why I personally reject the Bible is simply because it's the easiest case to make. Rather than spend endless hours trying to develop a plausible spin to explain why an all-knowing, all-powerful, omni
Raf
The last post on this thread was eleven years ago. Suffice it to say, MY position has changed since then.
waysider
Not only have we changed in those 11 years, the internet, in general, has changed. Social media has changed. On-line behaviors have changed. And, best of all, TWI has changed. It's shriveled up and be
TheEvan
Sigh,
I used to read the Bible in a very literalist sense, going into full Wierwille DECODE mode.(a/ka the mythical "rightly divided word" which, BTW, does not exist). And i'd end up in arguments like I see in this thread.
Okay, ON THE SUrFACE is the blood & guts. But can't we go past the surface. Everybody seems to want to read it for INFORMATION. I suggest that reading for personal moral and spiritual instruction yields a more satisfying picture of the accounts. I see spiritual truth applicable in my life from the slaughter of the Amalekites (see my post above).
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Goey
Garth,
Your reply makes my point as to why these discussion are generally fruitless.
For example you gloss over or make fun of my point about what the meaning of "badly" was back then, showing your (intentional?) ignorance of OT culture and your lack of willingness to do any actual investigation - and then simply declare it "lame" by fiat... Think it through Garth - use your brain instead of your emotions.
I could hardy think that debate with you on this would be anymore than trying have a civil conversation a mud fence. I find your style childish and annoying anyway - Certainly not conducive to intelligent and thoughtful discussion.
And what's up with all the strawman stuff about atheists in prision or on death row and religious people and crime? It is irrelevant.
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Refiner
Goey has stated:
Well I am pleased that you understand my “real” thinking more than I understand it myself.
That must be a gratifying skill to possess, that of mind reader and comprehender of the motives and emotional history of other people.
Hmm, well maybe theres a reason for that. Maybe its because God appears unfair and cruel in those scriptures, so that’s why the Atheists and agnostics use them to demonstrate that god is unfair and cruel. Im Just taking a wild stab in the dark guessing there.
You mean that the “Children” the bear mauled were actually "adults"? And that to call someone “baldy” was actually calling out a rank blasphemy , a mockery, against God?
Has it occurred to yourself that such explanations are generated by Christians who see the harshness of their OT God and feel the need to prove that He was justified in taking the action he did?
Just a thought there.
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My3Cents
Well Refiner,
You certainly get points for naming a thread in a way to get a voluminous response. So many I haven't read them all - but read enough to see a pattern that I see repeated often here and saw a lot when I was a follower in the way.
That pattern is people have a belief they like. They justify that belief with varying degrees fo logic, scripture etc. When someone asks a question as you did, people jump through all kinds of hoops to come up with an explanation that does not negate their core belief. Sometimes the explanations make sense, sometimes they don't sometimes they border on lunacy. But usually folks don't realize this because to do so would call into question a belief they are comfortable with.
My own belief is that the questions are more useful than the answers when it comes to many unproveable aspects of life. And of course I have many explanations to justify that belief. Enjoy!
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Oakspear
Some of you are comparing the killing of PEOPLE to putting down sick animals or eliminating dangerous snakes or putting a bullet in the head of a pit bull.
And don't see anything wrong with it.
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Oakspear
How's my spelling, Zixar?
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Tom Strange
Refiner... how are the asbestos drawers that Shellon loaned you holding up?
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Refiner
Hey my three:
Goey might well be right. The bear mauled children might well have been 30 year old Baal worshippers denigrating God.
I cant say. Nor can I see that in a surface reading of the text itself.
But then Im not a researcher into Greek / Hebrew word meanings like most here are, and which Goey is an expert in. A practise he apparently developed during his church experience, and which the church encouraged and fostered.
My experience was different, although I must say there are some similarities between Goeys explanation of the children who were mauled by the bears, and the JW explanation that the thousands killed by plague after King David committed the “Census sin” were all wicked people anyway, preselected for extermination, and marked in the black book of death for the next time David botched the job and God found it necessary to send a punishing and selective plague thru the land to punish David.
Yes, perhaps a correct understanding of the original language texts may well demonstrate it was a selective plague singling out only the unrighteous. I cant say.
Personally Im more interested in how Goey developed his ability to read the true minds and thought patterns, thru the medium of a computer screen no less, of total strangers around the other side of the planet.
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lindyhopper
THAT skill my friend, Refried, is only obtained after mastering PFAL!
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lindyhopper
This reminds me of another great verse....it went something like .....
"Thou shalt not kill, but if thine tormentors shall hurl insults at you that really .... thee off, then thou shalt proclaim, "Sticks and stones shall break my bones asunder but how doth a bear on thine a$$ feel?"
I may have paraphrased a bit.
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Goey
Refiner,
Now ain't that the pot calling the kettle black? Here is a fellow who has offered numerous opinions on what how people think, opinions on a cult he was never involved in - yet when one dares offer a "guess" about his thinking he whines in protest! Come now ..
Refiner, are you really here to learn and understand others opinions like you said? It seems kind of doubtful to me considering you are posting on a site where you are basically an outsider, with no background in TWI - and you are starting topics like "Why I reject Jesus" in a place like GS cafe?
Goey
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Refiner
Hey Goey:
Now see clearly Im here to learn. How can I not learn on a new site dealing with a subject I know nothing about? Impossible. Yet you think Im not here to learn.
Tell you what Ive learnt so far… Ive learnt some basic TWI doctrine. Ive learnt some things about VPW, Ive learnt some TWI loaded language terms and Ive learnt who the amusing posters are, and who the resident experts are.
So to think that I haven’t learnt anything or am not here to learn is incorrect. Yet you indicate that you think Im not here to learn.
Im here to learn, and Im here to pass on what I know already.
And I know PLENTY about certain things and get massive response to my posts, as you might have noticed.
Is there something special about this site such that a topic “why I reject Christ” cant be posted here? Clue me in. My post was an explanation as to why I reject the IDEA of believing in Christ. I was curious to see whether anyone could convince me different.
But you think in absolute terms Goey and misinterprete my posting. To be frank I just cant be bothered explaining it to you further than that. Youre probably the last person here that Id bother trying to explain my thinking and experience to, and that’s the fact of the matter, cause you take things said too literally and Im simply not interested in engaging in an online ego war with you.
Later dude.
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The Girl From Oz
In other words, you are only welcome here if you think exactly like Goey.
-->
Goey, I've noticed that you haven't posted on my thread "Religion and Faith after Leaving A Cult". I don't know if it's because you haven't read it, but if you haven't, I'd suggest you do. Why? So that you can learn that TWI is no more unique than many other cults. There are many similarities between the various cults, and I know that we can learn from each other.
Gaining this kind of knowledge helps us to grow and heal from our experiences in our respective cults. If we don't try to understand where we came from, then we are at risk of being hoodwinked again. It may not be another religion, but it could be a bad relationship, business deal or simply making bad choices in life in general.
I know Refiner personally, and he has alot to offer this board. Now, everyone has a choice when he posts. You can choose to read his posts, and even comment; or if you don't like them, simply ignore them and concentrate on the posters you do like. It's simple netiquette that is practised on other discussion boards.
Learn or ignore, the choice is up to you.
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Goey
Dorothy,
Nope, not at all. What a gross misrepresentation there Dorothy! If you had much of a clue about me you would know that that was not true at all. I welcome spirited debate and diverse opinions. Yet I am not afraid to call them as I see them.
I don't expect anyone here to think like I do. But I do expect someone who freely shares his own opinions about how others think, and presents himself as a cult expert, to not whine and come of so puffy when others speculate about his thinking.
And yes, it does bug me a bit that Refiner, who has absolutely no background in TWI is now one of the most prolific posters here at GS, and he starts topics like "Why I Reject Jesus".
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The Girl From Oz
Goey,
Why does the subject of someone rejecting Jesus bother you so?
Must all those who leave TWI stay Christians?
Must all those who post on GS CAfe be Christians?
Is not this a place for discussion of ideas and experiences?
I'm most curious why a man's statement regarding Jesus bothers you so much?
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excathedra
goey, i'm curious why it bugs you a bit, serious, not trying to argue or anything
i find it refreshing
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Refiner
You said it man, not me.
Anyway Goey, Im not interested in fighting with ya. But I will be askin where:
" he presents himself as a cult expert".
Find that statement by me if you can and present it.
If I didnt say that, and you concluded it yourself, well.....
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Refiner
Im outta this thread....
No hard feelings goester
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George Aar
Lindyhopper,
I'd love to read that in the original! LOL
Almost as much fun as "The Devil's Dictionary".
Personally I wasn't too offended by the idea of rejecting Christ, but if anybody posts about "Why I Reject Spiderman", well, he's asking for it...
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Tom Strange
...someone rejected Spiderman???
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def59
You know, if anyone really took a close look at the OT they would find a God of grace and mercy and justice and judgement.
I know judgement is a bad word in today's world. After all who can judge anyone? but this thread started off with a judgement by Refiner on God and Jesus.
I see the OT stories and know that God is Light and in him is no darkness at all. In all cases, the people who were killed did so after rejecting the true God for idols made of stone and wood.
But God also treated his own people with a hard hand at times. What loving parent isn't going to discipline from time to time.
And there were times that God was going to destroy people and nations, but he stopped when they repented. (See Jonah).
Curious how no one ever seems to bring that story up.
God said he raises nations up and sends them down.
How can he do this, the critics scream.
Great thing about God, he doens't listen to critics, who are just sinful men and have no clue what God's holiness is all about.
Examples of God's grace.
Adam and Eve sin, God prepares skins for them so they will not freeze in the world outside Eden.
Noah
God lets his wife and kids and daughters-in-law come along. The rest? Well they had 100 years to change their minds, but they chose not to.
Babel
Man wants to be like God, so he builds a tower. God, who has promised not to wipe out the planet again, just twists the tongues so they walk off and form people groups.
Abraham
Repeatedly lies and distrusts God, but God gives him a son.
Isaac
Repeatedly lies and distrusts God, but God gives him a son.
Jacob
Wrestles with God, but does become the son of promise and gives birth to a nation.
I could go on, but no one likes long posts.
Suffice to say, if someone got zapped in the OT as people like to say, then they probably crossed a line. It wasn't always one sin and your gone.
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excathedra
i don't know, i wouldn't zap my son no matter how many lines he crossed
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Mandii
Well Oakspear, none of the book religions have ever thought it wrong to kill people in the name of God and still don't.
Some of us have woken up from the TWI elitism of natural man being no better than an animal in only that he is body and soul (no spirit) and no better than an animal ----Advanced Class 1979 and don't forget all the dead corpse stuff walking around, and statements like "You can't offend a corpse." in regards to witnessing to them.
Makes people much more easier to kill off and get rid of when they don't fit into the agenda as they are only as innocent as copperheads. Jepthah from the Old Testament sacrificed his daughter to the fire when he came home from battle, and Abraham WAS going to MURDER his son. So it seems that the excuse that people are nothing but a bunch of devil baal worshipping idiots is kinda lost there as many treated their own offspring the same way; it just seems to matter what GOD's name was used to justify it that seems to make it right or wrong.
It seems that the book religions have always had a 'fit for life' method of unnatural selecton to see who got to live on. Governments have adapted it as well and carry it on in genocide, pure blood bull****.
Last night on the news, NBC got into a town to interview a relative of the most wanted terrorist, and when questioned about how his borther/cousin (whatever) could cut off the heads of innocent men, his reply was "His religion told him to do so." Duh. And so does the OT tell people to do it. At least this guy was honest about what he believes his religion to say.
And this guy is related to the guy who stood behind that bounded 26 year old KID and hacked his head off, seeing him as the enemy, no innocent than anyone has seen any religious enemy and probably compared him to the spawn of the great satan usa in order to justify his murder of a young man. His God orders him to murder innocents in the name of spiritual purity and obedience.
The OT God ordered the same thing for the same reasons.
Again when it's the wrong God it is wrong; when it's the God of a person, there is always a good reasoning behind it or a 'deeper insight.'
Gotta wonder about religions that need the sword and stake to make converts.
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lindyhopper
The profound Exy beat me to it.
Don't run off too quickly Refried. and don't give Goey too much of a hard time, he is going into surgrey. He doesn't need any extra stress. But I totally understand where you are coming from.
....how easily we attribute God with this Father/parent title. "Oh parents have to discipline they're children." We've been over this so many times before. The only parental figure the god of the OT resembles is an abusive one. People that try and justify it, as Def just did, sound like an abused spouse trying to explain to their worried friends that he really is a good man.....nevermind him allowing his kids to die and/or be tortured just because they didn't do what he said...really he loves us so much.
I always see disciplining our children being equated with God doing something like blinding someone or killing them.
Another point is the blood/race issue. We talk of God disciplining or punishing his kids, but most of the time it wasn't his kids...it was those other bi-peds the EVil ones. They were not the chosen people because they and their ancestors did not do as da God said. So If you do not obey God then you are not his kid. That sounds just like a great human parent, infact i have already disowned my 13 month old because he just won't do as I say. I feel bad but it was his choices, he tied my hands. I'm just trying my best to be an imitator of my loving heavenly father....
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Most analogies that folks use for God only work when we want it to and choose to ignore the times that it doesn't work.
And Def, I don't think judgement is a bad word. It is how we get thru life. We make good ones and bad ones. I make judgements of people that screw up, but then apologise and rectify the situation, or of those that persivere thru unbelievable circumstances, and of say someone who says DO NOT KILL in one breath but then say go murder every man, woman and child in the next town over.
I make the call for me and you for you. Apparently many think that my last person was not any worse than the two previous ones. I find that rather interesting....and a little scary.
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