By that logic, one could argue that Hitler got revelation from God to kill the Jewish kids, and that because Hitler didn't complete it, he lost his kingdom.
Only Hitler could reasonably argue that nonsense, and he's dead.
I know you don't believe that Hitler was a good guy or doing the right thing, but what logic do you use to seperate the two instances?
Innocent people are the same, so I don't see how it would matter.
Are they? Who decides exactly what entails "innocent"?
What if the Israelites had simply adopted the babies and raised them as Samaritans or something?
What if the Amalek tribe had some sort of genetic anomaly that would have spread death among the Jews had the children been allowed to reach maturity and marry? There are a million "what ifs", and a billion speculations. Taking your pick doesn't guarantee truth.
Why wouldn't have God have caused a severe case of infertility in the Amalekites so that there would be no babies and thus no need for the moral dilemna at all?
What if that were the divine equivalent of tossing the opponent's king in the fire?
Personally, I get more out of God's command to slaughter the Amalekites (or Whatever-ites) by looking for Christ in the story.
How do you see Christ in such a record? I see Him pictured by Joshua, leading us into the Promised Land, ie, my walk & life as a Christian. He commans me slaughter the enemies therein: my besetting sins, my rebellion, my pride, my lust. One by one, I conquer these territories for Christ and submit them to Him.
It might be wise if I posted here that, living in Australia, the time difference between America and Australia is a most inconvenient one ( Aussie is always 15 hours ahead of American time)and when America is posting, I am at work. When america is at work, Aussie is asleep, etc.
I have great trouble believing the Hebrew God is the "true God" we worship and which was revealed to us in the Gospel of John and the Pauline Epistles. Jesus came to redeem us from his law, his bondage and taught his disciples how to pray to the true God of love.
The only reason the Hebrew O.T. is in there is because a few hundred years later the Catholic Church decided it should be. To the victor went the spoils. The cannon is the result of politics.
What if there had been no O.T., no God of war, death and destruction for "Christian" men to follow, would men have still believed? Would there have been war, an inquisition, a crusades? could they have believed in a God of love, the one Jesus preached? It seems most people can't, even today.
I wish I had more time to contribute to this topic.
It is always sooo much fun.
This thread has brought up a few of my favorite scriptures……I just can’t remember the chapters and verses.
“Yee are of God my little pawns in the game of life, do as I say and destroy the enemy my little ones, I love Me”
“You are my beloved cows. Come to my troth of abundance and drink from my swill. Pull up a chair so we can shoot the bull.”
“You are my red-headed step-children, make my only begotten son Lord, and don’t slip up and nobody gets hurt.”
“Go out back little children and kill the copperheads, I’m too busy. Besides I enjoy watching you risk your necks while attempting to obey My every Word. Oh and don’t step on the crab grass or I will be forced to let you die….Oh, and hop on one foot while you do this.”
Oh my memory is so fuzzy!
I do enjoy this topic.
What where we talking about again?
Oh right, those stupid ancient people. Sorry for the derailment.
Well Lindyhopper I will certainly have to read all the posts before opening my yap and commenting, and there are a LOT of posts since last I looked.
I must say though, in answer to a couple of posters, yes, indeed there must be many Christians in China. Although it is not cultural historically.
Looking at the geography, It would seem that in order to be "saved" and enter Christs Kingdom, one would have to have the good fortune to have been born in a country conquered by the former Roman Empire, or one of its former dominions.
It might be wise if I posted here that, living in Australia, the time difference between America and Australia is a _most_ inconvenient one ( Aussie is always 15 hours ahead of American time)and when America is posting, I am at work. When america is at work, Aussie is asleep, etc.
Thus, I am not ignoring people who address me.
I am simply not present.
Wow, you're 15 hours in the future???
Tell me what happens tomorrow! What was the outcome of the baseball games, that for you have already happened, but for us here haven't happened yet? Do you have access to winning lottery numbers?
That poor woman, of course, is now known to be completely innocent, and the baby was indeed taken by a dingo. Which any reasonable person knew to be the case at the time.
Only Hitler could reasonably argue that nonsense, and he's dead.
Both arguments seem equally invalid from my perspective, so I'm glad you understood it for one at least.
quote:Originally posted by Zixar:
Are they? Who decides exactly what entails "innocent"?
Babies are innocent. What can they do wrong other than crap themselves and cry at 2am? At worst they would have annoyed the Israelites.
quote:Originally posted by Zixar:
What if the Amalek tribe had some sort of genetic anomaly that would have spread death among the Jews had the children been allowed to reach maturity and marry?
Being a carrier for genetic birth defects are no reason to murder babies though. There are countless ways to avoid that problem anyway.
quote:Originally posted by Zixar:
There are a million "what ifs", and a billion speculations. Taking your pick doesn't guarantee truth.
The problem is that at present, there is no justification for killing infants. One of the ten commandments say, "Thou shalt not kill", which most translate to murder, but how can it not be murder? Either it's a contradiction between words attributed to Jehovah, or the story is not true.
quote:Originally posted by Zixar:
What if that were the divine equivalent of tossing the opponent's king in the fire?
Again, a million what ifs....
The problem is that we humans have brains and would think of the "what ifs" especially when stuff like this would go against our morals, including the morals that the bible claims to have as well. If there are exceptions, then they should clearly be stated in the bible so we can understand them. Otherwise, it's just a contradiction. How it got in there or which side is right of the story who knows.
From my own Christian prospective I have no problem with the mean old cruel God of the OT.
The atheist/agnostics complaints seem to usually point to the same OT stuff and the "victims" are usually portrayed as "innocent". Little if any effort is usually made understand the historical and cultural context of the offensive events. Also, the events are mostly viewed in the context of a feel-good modern western view of what folks think God ought to be.
Take the the little "innocent" children that were mauled by the she bears in 2 Kings. I bet not one of you critics has done an inkling of study of the historical, cultural or religious context of the events leading up to this one.
I bet you don't know or don't even want to know these things. That is why these kind of debates are usually fruitless.
Would it matter if I pointed out that these were not actually little kids but actually young men up to 30 years old? Would it matter if I pointed out that calling Elisha a "baldy" was tantamount to the complete rejection amd mockery of God himself - Or that these young men (and their parent's) were worshipers of Baal? -- Or that Baal worshippers sacrificed their own sons in fire and sold their own daughters into prostitution?
Refiner, no disrespect intended but I serioulsly doubt that you made your decision to reject Christ and ultimately God purely based upon reading the OT and seeing the verses you mentioned in your original post. Atheists have been using these same verses to argue the unfairness and cruelty of God for a long time,
yet they seldom seem seek to understand what could have been the reasoning behind these "cruel" events.
Many atheists/agnostics and anti-Judeao- Christians will define God in terms of what they think he should be (nice, sweet, warm fuzzy, non-jugemental, non violent at whatever the price, non-demanding, etc and then take these verses out of context to show that the God that they don't even believe in - is mean, cruel, and unfair and not worth worshipping. Or that since their unlearned perception of the God of the Bible does not meet their imagined dream God that He must not exist or is too mean, cruel and unfair to believe in.
My guess is that your revelation of the biblical events you mentioned you came after your rejection of Jesus and God, and are being used as justification for a decision you had already made.
My guess is that your rejection of God and Jesus runs much deeper than a few verses in the OT that when taken out of context seem to show God as mean and cruel, but probably has a lot more to do with your negative experiences with cults, and with "Christian's" that misrepresent God and Jesus.
Suffice it to say, I find the athesist/agnostic arguments weak at best and intellectually dishonest at worst. Unfortunatly at times, I find some Christian rebuttals just as weak and intellectually dishonest.
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George Aar
Why I personally reject the Bible is simply because it's the easiest case to make. Rather than spend endless hours trying to develop a plausible spin to explain why an all-knowing, all-powerful, omni
Raf
The last post on this thread was eleven years ago. Suffice it to say, MY position has changed since then.
waysider
Not only have we changed in those 11 years, the internet, in general, has changed. Social media has changed. On-line behaviors have changed. And, best of all, TWI has changed. It's shriveled up and be
GarthP2000
Yo' Al,
I can't speak for refinier, but where in the hell did you get this stupid idea that I was conveying that there was no standard for truth?
-->
Next time, set aside this practice of reading INTO what I said, and actually read what is actually written, and think about what you read.
'Cause I know you didn't this time around.
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Zixar
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Al Poole
Run Garth.......... RUN!
the tree gods told me YOU are the one O Garthy Garth!
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TheEvan
Personally, I get more out of God's command to slaughter the Amalekites (or Whatever-ites) by looking for Christ in the story.
How do you see Christ in such a record? I see Him pictured by Joshua, leading us into the Promised Land, ie, my walk & life as a Christian. He commans me slaughter the enemies therein: my besetting sins, my rebellion, my pride, my lust. One by one, I conquer these territories for Christ and submit them to Him.
No problem for me...
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Refiner
It might be wise if I posted here that, living in Australia, the time difference between America and Australia is a most inconvenient one ( Aussie is always 15 hours ahead of American time)and when America is posting, I am at work. When america is at work, Aussie is asleep, etc.
Thus, I am not ignoring people who address me.
I am simply not present.
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Sunesis
I have great trouble believing the Hebrew God is the "true God" we worship and which was revealed to us in the Gospel of John and the Pauline Epistles. Jesus came to redeem us from his law, his bondage and taught his disciples how to pray to the true God of love.
The only reason the Hebrew O.T. is in there is because a few hundred years later the Catholic Church decided it should be. To the victor went the spoils. The cannon is the result of politics.
What if there had been no O.T., no God of war, death and destruction for "Christian" men to follow, would men have still believed? Would there have been war, an inquisition, a crusades? could they have believed in a God of love, the one Jesus preached? It seems most people can't, even today.
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lindyhopper
Sorry, Refiner, it always comes to this.
I wish I had more time to contribute to this topic.
It is always sooo much fun.
This thread has brought up a few of my favorite scriptures……I just can’t remember the chapters and verses.
“Yee are of God my little pawns in the game of life, do as I say and destroy the enemy my little ones, I love Me”
“You are my beloved cows. Come to my troth of abundance and drink from my swill. Pull up a chair so we can shoot the bull.”
“You are my red-headed step-children, make my only begotten son Lord, and don’t slip up and nobody gets hurt.”
“Go out back little children and kill the copperheads, I’m too busy. Besides I enjoy watching you risk your necks while attempting to obey My every Word. Oh and don’t step on the crab grass or I will be forced to let you die….Oh, and hop on one foot while you do this.”
Oh my memory is so fuzzy!
I do enjoy this topic.
What where we talking about again?
Oh right, those stupid ancient people. Sorry for the derailment.
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GarthP2000
Al, my man, if thats the best you can do, ... whatever.
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Refiner
Well Lindyhopper I will certainly have to read all the posts before opening my yap and commenting, and there are a LOT of posts since last I looked.
I must say though, in answer to a couple of posters, yes, indeed there must be many Christians in China. Although it is not cultural historically.
Looking at the geography, It would seem that in order to be "saved" and enter Christs Kingdom, one would have to have the good fortune to have been born in a country conquered by the former Roman Empire, or one of its former dominions.
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Steve!
Wow, you're 15 hours in the future???
Tell me what happens tomorrow! What was the outcome of the baseball games, that for you have already happened, but for us here haven't happened yet? Do you have access to winning lottery numbers?
Oh this is so kewel!
Oh, uh, waitaminit, nevermind.
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Refiner
Steve, the time zone starts in the middle of the pacific ocean.
America is at the very back end of the time zone. New Zealand leads the time zone with Aussie next. It is 7am Wednesday here currently.
What is it there? 5pm Tuesday about?
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Steve!
Yeah, 5 p.m.
This is so great, I can't wait to tell my kids that I'm conversing with someone in the future!
Living in Australia, do you get to see that Vienna Boys' Choir?
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excathedra
wouldn't that be austria ?
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Steve!
Oh, uh, whoops! Sorry!
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Cindy!
I'd go to Austria...but I'm afraid that once in those mountains...a dingo will steal my babies.
muhahaha
did we derail???? oops...we bad
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Refiner
That poor woman, of course, is now known to be completely innocent, and the baby was indeed taken by a dingo. Which any reasonable person knew to be the case at the time.
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Mister P-Mosh
Both arguments seem equally invalid from my perspective, so I'm glad you understood it for one at least.
Babies are innocent. What can they do wrong other than crap themselves and cry at 2am? At worst they would have annoyed the Israelites.
Being a carrier for genetic birth defects are no reason to murder babies though. There are countless ways to avoid that problem anyway.
The problem is that at present, there is no justification for killing infants. One of the ten commandments say, "Thou shalt not kill", which most translate to murder, but how can it not be murder? Either it's a contradiction between words attributed to Jehovah, or the story is not true.
The problem is that we humans have brains and would think of the "what ifs" especially when stuff like this would go against our morals, including the morals that the bible claims to have as well. If there are exceptions, then they should clearly be stated in the bible so we can understand them. Otherwise, it's just a contradiction. How it got in there or which side is right of the story who knows.
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Raf
Really?
Cool.
You know the lady who sued McDonald's because her coffee was too hot? She was in the right.
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Steve!
Raf - some news. The rabbit died.
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Raf
You know, that sounds like...
Oh never mind.
He's being literal folks.
Sorry to hear that Steve!. I found out when I woke up. A bummer of a way to end the trip.
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Goey
From my own Christian prospective I have no problem with the mean old cruel God of the OT.
The atheist/agnostics complaints seem to usually point to the same OT stuff and the "victims" are usually portrayed as "innocent". Little if any effort is usually made understand the historical and cultural context of the offensive events. Also, the events are mostly viewed in the context of a feel-good modern western view of what folks think God ought to be.
Take the the little "innocent" children that were mauled by the she bears in 2 Kings. I bet not one of you critics has done an inkling of study of the historical, cultural or religious context of the events leading up to this one.
I bet you don't know or don't even want to know these things. That is why these kind of debates are usually fruitless.
Would it matter if I pointed out that these were not actually little kids but actually young men up to 30 years old? Would it matter if I pointed out that calling Elisha a "baldy" was tantamount to the complete rejection amd mockery of God himself - Or that these young men (and their parent's) were worshipers of Baal? -- Or that Baal worshippers sacrificed their own sons in fire and sold their own daughters into prostitution?
Refiner, no disrespect intended but I serioulsly doubt that you made your decision to reject Christ and ultimately God purely based upon reading the OT and seeing the verses you mentioned in your original post. Atheists have been using these same verses to argue the unfairness and cruelty of God for a long time,
yet they seldom seem seek to understand what could have been the reasoning behind these "cruel" events.
Many atheists/agnostics and anti-Judeao- Christians will define God in terms of what they think he should be (nice, sweet, warm fuzzy, non-jugemental, non violent at whatever the price, non-demanding, etc and then take these verses out of context to show that the God that they don't even believe in - is mean, cruel, and unfair and not worth worshipping. Or that since their unlearned perception of the God of the Bible does not meet their imagined dream God that He must not exist or is too mean, cruel and unfair to believe in.
My guess is that your revelation of the biblical events you mentioned you came after your rejection of Jesus and God, and are being used as justification for a decision you had already made.
My guess is that your rejection of God and Jesus runs much deeper than a few verses in the OT that when taken out of context seem to show God as mean and cruel, but probably has a lot more to do with your negative experiences with cults, and with "Christian's" that misrepresent God and Jesus.
Suffice it to say, I find the athesist/agnostic arguments weak at best and intellectually dishonest at worst. Unfortunatly at times, I find some Christian rebuttals just as weak and intellectually dishonest.
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Tom Strange
Refiner and Girl From Oz live in Austrailia... not Austria... Austria is in the middle of Europa somewhere... isn't it where 'the Eagle's Nest' was?
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Steve!
Umm, Europa is a moon of Jupiter.
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Tom Strange
Steve! I've still got it!
I knew I could get someone to type "Europa is a moon of Jupiter"!!!
(sorry, now I'm feeling guilty for having used you)
:(--> 
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