You make an excellent point. Who would ever want to worship a God like that. And if his son was anythihg like the father...noway.
I'v had to persue my understanding of God and JC in different contexes other then the Bible. And to date I am in love with both. So for me the Bible is not the only reference point for truth. I do not view Jesus Christ or God like most Christians do.
quote: Im hoping that some one of the Christians here can explain the apparent contradict in Gods nature between the two Testaments to me.
Maybe there's a reason for it.
I asked a Messianic Jewish pastor this one time (no -- I am not a Mesianic), and he just said "It's all one book". He did not elaborate further.
He and I have "gone around" about the administrations (of which I am a firm believer in), but reguardless, OT ascribes attributes to God that rightfully belong on the adversary's door-step.
If you are truely interested in the "dual nature" of God, please go to
I don't know Refiner, maybe a change of perspective would help. I don't see God as being the great manipulator of human history. I see him as a benevelant intervener, when people were bent on a path of certain destruction. I see him as a saviour of those who were faithful to him. I guess my ideas of free will, and what it means, has alot to do with it.
I'm no theologian, and have no pat answers to anything. I just think the interaction and relationship between our maker and us humans has been rather complicated over time. :)-->
Refiner: There's no dual nature of God. The devil does all the mean stuff. In the OT not much is said about the devil. The word 'satan' is only used 5 times outside the book of Job and the word 'devil' in the singular is not used at all. Those people had no way to directly fight the devil so they thought God did everything.
Jesus directly revealed the devil and through him believers today have power to resist him. The God I believe in loves me and won't do mean things to me no matter how stupid I sometimes am before him. That's God's true nature.
Ex: Remember when your son was so young he couldn't yet speak or reason well? You had to physically make sure he didn't walk in the middle of the street sometimes. You couldn't just say " don't do that". Later, when he could understand more, you could tell him things so he understood.
In a similar scenario, people in the OT just didn't readily understand who or what the devil was. Instead of sending a prophet to explain it, God gave the law (do it or don't do it because I say so) just like dealing with a young child. Sometimes there were grave consequences for violating the law, other times there were not. I don't really understand it any better than that.
See, that's the answer I got when I voiced the same doubts as in Refiner's first post to Christian friends.
It makes no sense to me--Their jealous God tells them to massacre whole villages, infants and children, a righteous act against the evil unbelievers, but, oh wait, it Wasn't really GOD.
But it says it was god.
Oh, but wait, that's not how we undestand it NOW.
That, and the whole savior thing made no sense to me, either--just what exactly are we saved from? Hell? The Devil? Something in the afterlife, that has no real effect on life in the here and now?
I was once pulled out of the way of a car that gunned around a corner and didn't see me--pulled back onto the sidewalk by a friend. The car could have killed me. I knew I was saved--I could tell!
But saved, in a religious or spiritual context? Never could tell.
Honestly, it makes me weary. Christianity didn't work for me, before or after the Way. I will not spend more of my time on earth trying to understand True Christian Doctrine so I can Believe.
I did have an intersting talk about this with a feminist woman pastor of a mainstream church. (I work with her occasionally at a
food warehouse/soup kitchen.)
Her opinion was the armies of the OT did what they wanted to do to get the lands they wanted and stamped God's name onto it.
I see your point about evil. But somehow it seems just as disingenuous to blame all evil on "the devil" as it does to make God responsible for everything.
Humans can be pretty depraved, all on their own. :)-->
TWI called it the "idiom of permission" Ex and Refiner. A lot of things don't make sence about it, IMO, and I've asked many Jewish folks that are seriouly into their beliefs and they said they've never heard of it.
To make a long story short, Refiner, in the OT God said not to worship any other god before him. Supposedly they weren't to write or speak any other god's name...like the Debil. So all the bad things that happened were attributed to God, in that he allowed it to happen because of the evil things that people were doing....or he gave his "permission" if you will. They were doing evil so there was nothing he could do but allow the consiquences of their actions happen to them.
Riiiiiight, sure that's what happened.
There is a thread on the idiom of permission in the Docrinal forum. I thought I asked some good questions there that no one ever answered.
The invisible Dan is another person to talk to with some intersting knowledge on the early 2nd or 3rd centery Christians. I think they resolved this by saying the OT god and the NT god were different gods. I may be wrong.
yeah, lindy the "idiom of permission" has to do with free will. But like I said, blaming everything evil on the devil, seems, well, too much like a pat answer to me.
hmm...can't mention other gods, including the devil/satan.
Then there's the Book of Job.
And let's not forget the mention of all the Baals and Dagon et al.
ExC asked a valid question IMHO in regard to idiom of permission and not mentioning other gods and the OT folks not being able to understand..."says who?"
The not mentioning other gods thing is in the OT, but they mentioned 'em anyway; the other is IMHO just some theological gymnastics to make the bible "fit", when it actually doesn't.
I think it is a mistake that is made too often...that ancient people were idiots. Take a look at some ancient history books. They understood things that some of us don't understand today.
There were plenty of cultures that were contemporaries of the ancient Isrialites that had their own gods were some were good and some were bad. It is not that hard of a concept to grasp.
quote:JohnUR I would push for a better explaination.
I don't have an answer for every 'what if'. When discussing God you get to a point where you don't care if it doesn't make sense to others. Evolution doesn't make any sense to me yet you believe it. Do you lose sleep because you don't have a better explanation for me? I trow not, heh heh. I still get results from praying. Why should I care if God doesn't make sense to you.
I never heard anything like the notion that when "God" slays them for wanting Chicken in the Wilderness, then it wasnt God but they used the word "God" because they didnt have a word for Satan.
Never heard that before.
But then Ive never heard MOST stuff I hear on this site before!
I like the idea that the ancient peoples were less intelligent than we are and could only grasp simple 'black/White' Principles of "Do" and "dont do".
That one makes me feel very superior.
Perhaps I'll accept that view failing a better offer.
The way I try to look at this is by considering the purpose and the subject of the bible. The main focal point if you will, and that being God’s only begotten son Jesus Christ being the subject and the purpose is to reconcile men and women back to God.
Looking at the gospels as the center, the best place to get a better glimpse into the heart of the creator God our Father. Jesus Christ shows a lot of who God is and what His real nature is. Now take that back through the O.T., that nature and heart you see in the gospels that is.
Is this a different god or what? Nope, same God, yet what He is doing is preparing and working for the day His son can be born and live that incredible, beautiful life we see in the gospels. But that god ordered the deaths of whole nations, including women and children! Back-up, what was His primary *job* in the O.T.? To get Christ here to do His deeds and accomplish our redemption. So, whole nations were bent on the destruction of the nations that were necessary to bring the messiah to pass.
I might note that not all people of all nations that were to be wiped out got wiped out. If you follow the history those very ones were constant sources of evil for Israel.
But, they reason that they were to be wiped out was because they were bent on wiping out what is called the Christ line. Stop and look at certain groups now that from birth teach their children to destroy themselves and take out as many of the enemy as they can. Don’t you think that the world would be a better place if they were cut-off from the face of the earth before they could do their suicide mission?
Of course it would be and it also would be a lot more loving to end it before it started, it really can be that simple.
Ordering or commanding the death of evil people bent on the prevention and destruction of the necessary Christ line so that man might be redeemed is not evil or none loving, unless maybe you are the bent one...... Then there are different events like the flood of Noah. If you bother to read further, after the life of Christ you will see that it may have said in the O.T. God did it. But in Peter it shows that this was brought about by spirits that are in chains. Was the flood of Noah what god desired or was it the result of the evil that filled the earth?
Its like did God order the death of all those nations? Yes; but even then He didn’t kill them, man had to carry it out. Did God cause the flood? Not if what Peter says is right.
But you have the time when Christ walked the earth and everything before that was whatever it took for him to get here God did. Now you have the glorified Christ and a time when men and women can accept his accomplishments and God is free to deal with individuals beyond what He could do preparing for His son’s arrival..........
A friend of mine has a dog that has been his loyal companion for ten years. He treats that dog better than most people treat their kids. Two years ago, his wife gave birth to their first child, a lovely daughter. I asked him, "Don't you think it's dangerous to have a baby around a pit bull?" He said, "Yes, but the first time he even growls at her, I'm going to put a bullet through his head."
The moral of the story? One treates one's servants differently than one treats one's children.
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George Aar
Why I personally reject the Bible is simply because it's the easiest case to make. Rather than spend endless hours trying to develop a plausible spin to explain why an all-knowing, all-powerful, omni
Raf
The last post on this thread was eleven years ago. Suffice it to say, MY position has changed since then.
waysider
Not only have we changed in those 11 years, the internet, in general, has changed. Social media has changed. On-line behaviors have changed. And, best of all, TWI has changed. It's shriveled up and be
imbus
Refiner,
You make an excellent point. Who would ever want to worship a God like that. And if his son was anythihg like the father...noway.
I'v had to persue my understanding of God and JC in different contexes other then the Bible. And to date I am in love with both. So for me the Bible is not the only reference point for truth. I do not view Jesus Christ or God like most Christians do.
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excathedra
trinity or no trinity, this kind of god is what hurts my heart....
i have no earthly idea why i still feel something toward "him"
my mom brainwashed me from a very early age i think. and since she is such a good person.... well....
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excathedra
when i refused to raise my son in any religion or church ... same is true to this day ....
she said but every child needs hope beyond their parents
long story
too painful for me
i think i'm still a child
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Refiner
Im hoping that some one of the Christians here can explain the apparent contradict in Gods nature between the two Testaments to me.
Maybe theres a reason for it.
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excathedra
me too
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dmiller
I asked a Messianic Jewish pastor this one time (no -- I am not a Mesianic), and he just said "It's all one book". He did not elaborate further.
He and I have "gone around" about the administrations (of which I am a firm believer in), but reguardless, OT ascribes attributes to God that rightfully belong on the adversary's door-step.
If you are truely interested in the "dual nature" of God, please go to
www.truthortradition.com
Not trying to "brush you off", but these folks do have answers -- even if they are an off-shoot from twi.
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ex10
I don't know Refiner, maybe a change of perspective would help. I don't see God as being the great manipulator of human history. I see him as a benevelant intervener, when people were bent on a path of certain destruction. I see him as a saviour of those who were faithful to him. I guess my ideas of free will, and what it means, has alot to do with it.
I'm no theologian, and have no pat answers to anything. I just think the interaction and relationship between our maker and us humans has been rather complicated over time.
:)-->
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johniam
Refiner: There's no dual nature of God. The devil does all the mean stuff. In the OT not much is said about the devil. The word 'satan' is only used 5 times outside the book of Job and the word 'devil' in the singular is not used at all. Those people had no way to directly fight the devil so they thought God did everything.
Jesus directly revealed the devil and through him believers today have power to resist him. The God I believe in loves me and won't do mean things to me no matter how stupid I sometimes am before him. That's God's true nature.
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excathedra
john, do you mean when the OT people attributed bad things to god, they really meant satan but they did not or could not SEE or say that ?
i semi remember this teaching from the way
can you or someone help me with this ?
or help refiner
:)-->
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dmiller
You're correct.
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excathedra
says who
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johniam
Ex: Remember when your son was so young he couldn't yet speak or reason well? You had to physically make sure he didn't walk in the middle of the street sometimes. You couldn't just say " don't do that". Later, when he could understand more, you could tell him things so he understood.
In a similar scenario, people in the OT just didn't readily understand who or what the devil was. Instead of sending a prophet to explain it, God gave the law (do it or don't do it because I say so) just like dealing with a young child. Sometimes there were grave consequences for violating the law, other times there were not. I don't really understand it any better than that.
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Bramble
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
do you mean when the OT people attributed bad things to god, they really meant satan but they did not or could not SEE or say that ?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You're correct.
-------------------------------
See, that's the answer I got when I voiced the same doubts as in Refiner's first post to Christian friends.
It makes no sense to me--Their jealous God tells them to massacre whole villages, infants and children, a righteous act against the evil unbelievers, but, oh wait, it Wasn't really GOD.
But it says it was god.
Oh, but wait, that's not how we undestand it NOW.
That, and the whole savior thing made no sense to me, either--just what exactly are we saved from? Hell? The Devil? Something in the afterlife, that has no real effect on life in the here and now?
I was once pulled out of the way of a car that gunned around a corner and didn't see me--pulled back onto the sidewalk by a friend. The car could have killed me. I knew I was saved--I could tell!
But saved, in a religious or spiritual context? Never could tell.
Honestly, it makes me weary. Christianity didn't work for me, before or after the Way. I will not spend more of my time on earth trying to understand True Christian Doctrine so I can Believe.
I did have an intersting talk about this with a feminist woman pastor of a mainstream church. (I work with her occasionally at a
food warehouse/soup kitchen.)
Her opinion was the armies of the OT did what they wanted to do to get the lands they wanted and stamped God's name onto it.
That made sense.
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ex10
johniam
I see your point about evil. But somehow it seems just as disingenuous to blame all evil on "the devil" as it does to make God responsible for everything.
Humans can be pretty depraved, all on their own.
:)-->
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excathedra
bramble, makes more sense to me than anything else so far
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lindyhopper
TWI called it the "idiom of permission" Ex and Refiner. A lot of things don't make sence about it, IMO, and I've asked many Jewish folks that are seriouly into their beliefs and they said they've never heard of it.
To make a long story short, Refiner, in the OT God said not to worship any other god before him. Supposedly they weren't to write or speak any other god's name...like the Debil. So all the bad things that happened were attributed to God, in that he allowed it to happen because of the evil things that people were doing....or he gave his "permission" if you will. They were doing evil so there was nothing he could do but allow the consiquences of their actions happen to them.
Riiiiiight, sure that's what happened.
There is a thread on the idiom of permission in the Docrinal forum. I thought I asked some good questions there that no one ever answered.
The invisible Dan is another person to talk to with some intersting knowledge on the early 2nd or 3rd centery Christians. I think they resolved this by saying the OT god and the NT god were different gods. I may be wrong.
You out there Danny?
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lindyhopper
then there is the Catholic point of view.
real catholics.
they see most of the OT as man's perspective...not the revealed Word of da God.
they even call some of it myth...as in it had a long oral history before it was ever written down.
They see the devil not as a person or spiritual persona but just the bad things that happen in the world.
But then what the hell am I doing trying to make sence of this for you? I'm with you... it makes absolutely no sense at all.
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ex10
yeah, lindy the "idiom of permission" has to do with free will. But like I said, blaming everything evil on the devil, seems, well, too much like a pat answer to me.
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Oakspear
hmm...can't mention other gods, including the devil/satan.
Then there's the Book of Job.
And let's not forget the mention of all the Baals and Dagon et al.
ExC asked a valid question IMHO in regard to idiom of permission and not mentioning other gods and the OT folks not being able to understand..."says who?"
The not mentioning other gods thing is in the OT, but they mentioned 'em anyway; the other is IMHO just some theological gymnastics to make the bible "fit", when it actually doesn't.
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lindyhopper
Agreed Oak
I think it is a mistake that is made too often...that ancient people were idiots. Take a look at some ancient history books. They understood things that some of us don't understand today.
There were plenty of cultures that were contemporaries of the ancient Isrialites that had their own gods were some were good and some were bad. It is not that hard of a concept to grasp.
JohnUR I would push for a better explaination.
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johniam
Lindy:
quote:JohnUR I would push for a better explaination.
I don't have an answer for every 'what if'. When discussing God you get to a point where you don't care if it doesn't make sense to others. Evolution doesn't make any sense to me yet you believe it. Do you lose sleep because you don't have a better explanation for me? I trow not, heh heh. I still get results from praying. Why should I care if God doesn't make sense to you.
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Refiner
Hmmm. Well these are very unusual responses.
I never heard anything like the notion that when "God" slays them for wanting Chicken in the Wilderness, then it wasnt God but they used the word "God" because they didnt have a word for Satan.
Never heard that before.
But then Ive never heard MOST stuff I hear on this site before!
I like the idea that the ancient peoples were less intelligent than we are and could only grasp simple 'black/White' Principles of "Do" and "dont do".
That one makes me feel very superior.
Perhaps I'll accept that view failing a better offer.
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Grizzy
The way I try to look at this is by considering the purpose and the subject of the bible. The main focal point if you will, and that being God’s only begotten son Jesus Christ being the subject and the purpose is to reconcile men and women back to God.
Looking at the gospels as the center, the best place to get a better glimpse into the heart of the creator God our Father. Jesus Christ shows a lot of who God is and what His real nature is. Now take that back through the O.T., that nature and heart you see in the gospels that is.
Is this a different god or what? Nope, same God, yet what He is doing is preparing and working for the day His son can be born and live that incredible, beautiful life we see in the gospels. But that god ordered the deaths of whole nations, including women and children! Back-up, what was His primary *job* in the O.T.? To get Christ here to do His deeds and accomplish our redemption. So, whole nations were bent on the destruction of the nations that were necessary to bring the messiah to pass.
I might note that not all people of all nations that were to be wiped out got wiped out. If you follow the history those very ones were constant sources of evil for Israel.
But, they reason that they were to be wiped out was because they were bent on wiping out what is called the Christ line. Stop and look at certain groups now that from birth teach their children to destroy themselves and take out as many of the enemy as they can. Don’t you think that the world would be a better place if they were cut-off from the face of the earth before they could do their suicide mission?
Of course it would be and it also would be a lot more loving to end it before it started, it really can be that simple.
Ordering or commanding the death of evil people bent on the prevention and destruction of the necessary Christ line so that man might be redeemed is not evil or none loving, unless maybe you are the bent one...... Then there are different events like the flood of Noah. If you bother to read further, after the life of Christ you will see that it may have said in the O.T. God did it. But in Peter it shows that this was brought about by spirits that are in chains. Was the flood of Noah what god desired or was it the result of the evil that filled the earth?
Its like did God order the death of all those nations? Yes; but even then He didn’t kill them, man had to carry it out. Did God cause the flood? Not if what Peter says is right.
But you have the time when Christ walked the earth and everything before that was whatever it took for him to get here God did. Now you have the glorified Christ and a time when men and women can accept his accomplishments and God is free to deal with individuals beyond what He could do preparing for His son’s arrival..........
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Zixar
A friend of mine has a dog that has been his loyal companion for ten years. He treats that dog better than most people treat their kids. Two years ago, his wife gave birth to their first child, a lovely daughter. I asked him, "Don't you think it's dangerous to have a baby around a pit bull?" He said, "Yes, but the first time he even growls at her, I'm going to put a bullet through his head."
The moral of the story? One treates one's servants differently than one treats one's children.
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