The Natural Man thingamajig was not his idea. I don't recall if its Kenyon, Bullinger, Stiles or all three. But it was definitely not original.
As for the chapter and verse breaks: any first year theology student would know this. I credit Wierwille with doing his part to publicize it. It comes in handy every now and then.
Dispensationalism (erase the Jehovah's Witness meaning from your mind for this) is the same thing as what Wierwille calls "administrations." It is not a new thing, but everyone who teaches dispensationalism comes up with a different list of dispensations (administrations). I don't recall seeing Wierwille's list elsewhere, but it's not very different from Bullinger's.
It might be apparent to you by now that a lot of Wierwille's writings were derivative of E.W. Bullinger's. If you have the time, I strongly recommend Bullinger's How to Enjoy the Bible. Another of his books, Figures of Speech in the Bible, is an exhaustive (and exhausting :)-->) work, but full of little doctrinal gems.
Considering Goey and Trefor's comments, I admit I have no way to defend the present canon, per se. I've read the Old Testament apochryphal (or "deuterocanonical") books, and found little to conflict with the canonical books. I'm sure the inconsistencies I did find could be "worked." The New Testament apochrypha that I've read were just bizarre.
As to God giving His revelation exactly, I see no reason to consider that "untenable." That the scriptures have become only slightly corrupted over centuries of transcription is, in my opinion, evidence of His hand in guarding His Word.
My question is still, if you don't believe all of it, why do you believe what you do?
quote:As to God giving His revelation exactly, I see no reason to consider that "untenable." That the scriptures have become only slightly corrupted over centuries of transcription is, in my opinion, evidence of His hand in guarding His Word.
quote: I still choose to believe this. If it's not true, then anybody's opinion about anything is as good as anybody else's, and the Bible is just literature.
The Natural Man thingamajig was not his idea. I don't recall if its Kenyon, Bullinger, Stiles or all three. But it was definitely not original.
As for the chapter and verse breaks: any first year theology student would know this. I credit Wierwille with doing his part to publicize it. It comes in handy every now and then.
Dispensationalism (erase the Jehovah's Witness meaning from your mind for this) is the same thing as what Wierwille calls "administrations." It is not a new thing, but everyone who teaches dispensationalism comes up with a different list of dispensations (administrations). I don't recall seeing Wierwille's list elsewhere, but it's not very different from Bullinger's.
A comparison between Bullinger's 7 dispensations and vpw's 7 administrations was done
on the "Mastering pfal" thread a few weeks ago. (Partly by me. ;)--> )
Their listings agree with the following exceptions.
Bullinger includes the Gospels as under the Law, and has dispensation 6 as the
Millenial Reign of Revelation 20, an event yet to come.
vpw lumps the Millenial Reign in with the rest of the end-times as one administration
(which, apparently, includes something over 1000 years in it.) vpw adds an
administration for the Gospels-the "Christ" administration. Having compared the 2,
I'd say Bullinger's set makes more sense. (This should hardly qualify as news.)
quote: I still choose to believe this. If it's not true, then anybody's opinion about anything is as good as anybody else's, and the Bible is just literature.
and wouldn't that just be the end of the world.
Not the end of the world, no. Just like Judges 21:19.
I remember being told that in order to become a spiritual heavy you must exercise "reckless abandon". In other words, just accept what is being taught and dont question.
quote:Originally posted by George Aar:
Refiner, Mr.Odd, Goey, et al,
I know where you're "coming from" but I think there was still something else going on.
To begin with I didn't have any respect for Mr. Wierwille. I grudgingly went along with taking "The Class" because I was smitten with the girl who "witnessed" to me (yeah, there's a unique story, eh?).
Slowly through the tedious sessions (most of which I slept through), I began to side with Wierwille. I thought the "Four Crucified" was the coolest. By the time I "spoke in tongues" I was hooked.
After that I had an investment of time, emotion, and self-interest in TWI dogma, and it was more difficult to see it for what it really was.
But how did Wierwille make the transition? That's the real key. I think def is on the right track, but then that brings up another question, HOW does one go about "brainwashing"? How is one's innate skepticism broken down?
How do you get one to abandon logic and accept bizarre doctrines without ANY proof?
I think there are techniques utilized in PFAL that we haven't really caught onto yet.
Or, maybe I'd just like to think it was more sophisticated than it really was?
quote:As to God giving His revelation exactly, I see no reason to consider that "untenable." That the scriptures have become only slightly corrupted over centuries of transcription is, in my opinion, evidence of His hand in guarding His Word.
Really? The same can be said for The Odyssey.
Raf,
You have me there. I guess any writings that people consider very valuable will be transcribed with caution. ;)-->
Hey Ref is that Austraiian Rule Football you are referring to...man I never understood that game! Especially the theatrics of the referee when that rugby ball soared through the uprights.
More on the subject: don't know too much about JW's other than the occasional front door visit from "odd looking women passing out "The Watchtower" at my front door. For me it was rather intoxicating thinking I was somehow more enlightened than all the carnal minded folk walking around planet Earth. Akin to taking LSD. After all, we were the hippie generation looking for a new drug...and VP delivered it for awhile...but like most addictions, I got over it.
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Refiner
And the notion about "7 administration". I have never heard that before either.
There are very many ideas in the book that I have never heard of before.
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Raf
The Natural Man thingamajig was not his idea. I don't recall if its Kenyon, Bullinger, Stiles or all three. But it was definitely not original.
As for the chapter and verse breaks: any first year theology student would know this. I credit Wierwille with doing his part to publicize it. It comes in handy every now and then.
Dispensationalism (erase the Jehovah's Witness meaning from your mind for this) is the same thing as what Wierwille calls "administrations." It is not a new thing, but everyone who teaches dispensationalism comes up with a different list of dispensations (administrations). I don't recall seeing Wierwille's list elsewhere, but it's not very different from Bullinger's.
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GeorgeStGeorge
Refiner,
It might be apparent to you by now that a lot of Wierwille's writings were derivative of E.W. Bullinger's. If you have the time, I strongly recommend Bullinger's How to Enjoy the Bible. Another of his books, Figures of Speech in the Bible, is an exhaustive (and exhausting
:)-->) work, but full of little doctrinal gems.
Considering Goey and Trefor's comments, I admit I have no way to defend the present canon, per se. I've read the Old Testament apochryphal (or "deuterocanonical") books, and found little to conflict with the canonical books. I'm sure the inconsistencies I did find could be "worked." The New Testament apochrypha that I've read were just bizarre.
As to God giving His revelation exactly, I see no reason to consider that "untenable." That the scriptures have become only slightly corrupted over centuries of transcription is, in my opinion, evidence of His hand in guarding His Word.
My question is still, if you don't believe all of it, why do you believe what you do?
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Raf
Really? The same can be said for The Odyssey.
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lindyhopper
and wouldn't that just be the end of the world.
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WordWolf
A comparison between Bullinger's 7 dispensations and vpw's 7 administrations was done
on the "Mastering pfal" thread a few weeks ago. (Partly by me.
;)--> )
Their listings agree with the following exceptions.
Bullinger includes the Gospels as under the Law, and has dispensation 6 as the
Millenial Reign of Revelation 20, an event yet to come.
vpw lumps the Millenial Reign in with the rest of the end-times as one administration
(which, apparently, includes something over 1000 years in it.) vpw adds an
administration for the Gospels-the "Christ" administration. Having compared the 2,
I'd say Bullinger's set makes more sense. (This should hardly qualify as news.)
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GeorgeStGeorge
Not the end of the world, no. Just like Judges 21:19.
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Refiner
well, I FINISHED the book!
And interesting it was too, but I have to tell you DocVic is a pain in the butt. He hands great gifts to you then puts conditions onto them.
:(-->
As an example- My recieving the Christ Spirit within, or being Born again.
:)-->
All I got to do is A)- say Jesus is my Lord, and B) - believe it, and IM saved!
Im goin straight to HEAVEN, and nothing can take that away .
Hallelujah!
But then he tells me I cant manifest my power in the "5 senses world" unless I "renew my mind".
Well THATS a bit of a let down,
:(-->
but it gets worse, next hes telling me Ive got to join some army and be a "soldier".
What I want to do that for?
Sounds like a lot of hard work to me, and Id rather watch football.
:D-->
Do I get a bigger mansion in heaven if I do the Soldiering bit?
Clue me in willya?
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The Girl From Oz
You will get the bigger mansion so that you can house your 72 virgins. No, wait.... wrong religion. Oh well, never mind!
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bluesunday
I remember being told that in order to become a spiritual heavy you must exercise "reckless abandon". In other words, just accept what is being taught and dont question.
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GeorgeStGeorge
Raf,
You have me there. I guess any writings that people consider very valuable will be transcribed with caution.
;)-->
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Doze
Hey Ref is that Austraiian Rule Football you are referring to...man I never understood that game! Especially the theatrics of the referee when that rugby ball soared through the uprights.
More on the subject: don't know too much about JW's other than the occasional front door visit from "odd looking women passing out "The Watchtower" at my front door. For me it was rather intoxicating thinking I was somehow more enlightened than all the carnal minded folk walking around planet Earth. Akin to taking LSD. After all, we were the hippie generation looking for a new drug...and VP delivered it for awhile...but like most addictions, I got over it.
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