so your saying a innie should be concerned about what they post regarding twi .
I do not think twi would take anyone to court. they are to weak to care what happens in the gossip mill of GS.
maybe someone in a divorce or child custody but this is an open forum and it would be considered hear say at best if they could prove you even wrote it.
It isnt against the law to write untruths , it is very common and done every single day in the media.
maybe an innie that is living a lie of a life and is afraid of being exposed by twi or an ex spouse .
There are posters here that have EXPERIENCE in court with their posts being thrown back in their faces.
Hearsay is ADMISSIBLE in a civil case, and even in some criminal cases.
And it's not impossible to prove who wrote something. It's not all that difficult at all, if you have the right connections.
When posters vent, or express deep regrets for past misdeeds or mistreatment of other people, that can be used against them. It can go to show frame of mind, and it can be used to say, "Look at what this person is really like! How can you grant custody of this child to him/her?"
Hearsay is admissible in both family and supreme courts depending on the nature of the case.
You seem to be of the opinion that the warning to some people to watch what they post is invalid because you personally cannot imagine a situation where it could come up.
You haven't experienced it, therefore it cannot be true.
You should not base your opinions only on what you've experienced, nor should you assume that your opinions are correct, or are the only ones that are correct and everyone else should line up their opinions to match with yours.
I also believe things and evidence have to be proven in a court.
it is a tiny little group of hicks in a small OHIO small town .
twi doesnt have much power over anything and some paranoid feelings may come from being told twi or its paticipates have some abilities to frighten you to death by fear base threats that in reality are just wisps of bs.
many exway people may still be afraid of what other"believers" can do to them ooo how that was ingrained in the cult.
I for one am not afraid .
If your talking about someone reading a post and confronting you at twi, that is one thing, but I guess if someone wants to be unaware and write on the world wide net you beat your kids to death that is another.
I think you are being flippant and contentious just for the sake of it.
Kit's warning is a good one. I recall when one poster jokingly mentioned urinating in the fountain at TWI's headquarters. TWI's attorneys used that post to show how they need to control access to their property.
Others have posted things in anger and frustration only to see these things used against them, either in court or in a contfrontation by a spouse or by TWI leadership.
Steve is right. In civil procedings the rules of evidence are different. In these cases the court uses what is called Preponderance of Evidence where the standards of proof are much lower. Hearsay is many times allowed. Preponderance of evidence is looking to see if something is more likey than not. That is enough for a judge to make as decision in many civil proceedings. This is the reason that O.J. lost in his civil trial - the rules of evidence were different than in his criminal trial.
The fact then is that the posts in these forums can in indeed be used in court as evidence. All that has to be determmined is that it was more likely than not that someone posted it.
YOU may not be "worried or frightened" - That is not the point. This isn't all about YOU - or about being "worried and frightened". It is about being wise and cautious, so that folks don't post things that might later on be used against them in some way.
Maybe it is time for you to put you brain and heart in gear and try to see how others might be affected by what they post here.
Goey
"Most of my fondest memories in TWI never really happened"
[This message was edited by Goey on July 03, 2003 at 10:55.]
but has not the internet been around long enough for people to realize we are writing things down here?
people can and will do what ever they can to hurt one another in a war. I said that, I meant it as agreeing with how some should be careful if they do not want to hear about it again.
but in the case of someone peeing twi didnt sue the poster they got property control.
I am saying twi or a spouse confronting someone is not a court. It may be something people want to avoid and aware of but it is not a court.
child custody and divorce are not civil court cases Goey. ever.
Civil courts are monkey courts everyone knows that Goey and a far cry from losing custody of a child or suing someone for a divorce.
I also said if someone wants to be afraid or aware then be afraid, but confronting by an ex or by twi is not exactly a court hearing.
I would like to hear of actual posts used agaist someone in a real court of Law, not information off the web, but some words someone said in a thread or chat room used in the supreme court concerning a persons character.
I do not think it is valid as evidence and any fifty cent lawyer could get rid of the attempt.
I never got involved with the internet during the waydale years.
I guess GS comes from those that posted on waydale about twi. Then they shut down waydale as part of the agreement in court.
People got hurt when this happened and some felt used by the Allens to have posted information then quickly shut up for the amount of money they recieved.(hell yes I may have done the same thing) I admit that.
So I am not as sensitive as some may be concerning this warning. I agree to that. not sharing that history and only thinking I kind of maybe know what may have happened then.
As i said earlier I avoid the courts, I do not give a rats *** what the twi people may think about what I write , and I do not think I write anything I can be sued personly for such as slander etc.
I just know at one time I was alot more frightened of what other people can threaten at me than I am now, and Im glad I do not allow idle threats to bother me.
if someone has a valid concerns and thinks what they write may harm them in some way in a court by all means Kits warning in big red letters should be heeded.
During my divorce and custody dispute, my lawyer cautioned me about talking, emailing, posting, etc... about the case while it is in progress.
ANY KIND of statments made by me could be used in court against me.
And in ANY kind of court battle, whether it be civil, family, or criminal...it's just not worth taking chances.
The internet is a public forum, and as such, can be accessed by anyone for any reason. That alone should scream caution to those involved in any sort of legal action.
Mj, as far as what has been used from here in court.....when the court case came up where the guy wanted to get permission to visit the fountain and burial sights this year....twi used exerpts taken out of context from here in defense of their position ... ie that if they allowed ex way to visit, vandalism would occur.
Twi can STILL fu-- you up if you have family involved....whether you are afraid of em or NOT.
quote:child custody and divorce are not civil court cases Goey. ever.
Unfortunately, you are wrong and do not know what you are taking about here. Family courts are a part of the civil courts. The rules of Civil Procedure generally apply to divorce and child custody cases. Where are you getting your information from?
quote:Civil courts are monkey courts everyone knows that Goey and a far cry from losing custody of a child or suing someone for a divorce.
"Everyone knows that"? - Hardly. I would not presume to understand what "everyone knows", but I have found my experiences in civil courts to be pretty fair. Civil courts *can* be "monkey courts" but I would guess that the far greater percentage of cases are handled pretty fairly. While the court system can always use some improvement it is too ba taht you have such a low opinion of our court system and project you opnion upon "everyone" else.
I am just guessing here, but did you possibly lose a case in civil/family court and now blame the courts for it?
Goey
"Most of my fondest memories in TWI never really happened"
It might be a little tiny cult - in a little tiny Ohio town, but its a little tiny family that is getting its little tiny existence ripped apart, and within it are little tiny hearts that bear protecting.
MJ, it might be wise to know what you are talking about before you speak, particularly when dismissing what is actually good advice.
Court systems (excepting federal courts) vary some from state to state. Perhaps in your state divorce cases are heard by a state supreme court (though I find this very difficult to believe) but that is not true of all states.
In Michigan, such cases are heard in family courts, which are part of the civil, not criminal courts.
The rules of evidence are very different and what you say here can most definitely be used against you in these courts. Civil court is not about 'beyond a reasonable doubt' it is about a 'preponderance of the evidence'. What is and is not admissable evidence is also different than that for criminal law.
Admit you used the spoon as a rod of correction and left a few bruises, it absolutely can hurt you in a custody case, even if you no longer do so.
Admit you let your leadership in TWI do such things to your kids, again, it can hurt your case.
It is not difficult for someone with the proper software or legal backing to trace a handle back to the actual identity of the person posting.
I have used information from the internet, as I said elsewhere, in obtaining a protection order. I was also advised by my attorney to keep such information in case I needed it in a custody battle.
I am a paralegal student MJ, I do have some understanding of the court system. Please check your sources before you dismiss someone's advice, particularly if the advice was not intended for your situation anyway. Perhaps such advice is not necessary for your life, others still stand to benefit from it.
"the reason I call them monkey courts because it is often cases of less magitude, no laws can be changed due to the rulings"
Less magnitute to you, perhaps. But to the person who is fighting for custody or the right to visit their child, these courts have a great deal of power!!!
Part of the confusion comes from the state of New York.
In New York, what we in Illinois would call a 'Circuit Court', THEY call it a "Supreme Court". I forget what they call the court that in Illinois we call the Supreme Court. They may call it Superior Court.
In most states, the Supreme Court hears appeals, not original cases.
Oh, and I think that California may follow New Yorks model. But I may be mistaken about that.
Thanks for clearing that up Steve. I knew the court systems varied from state to state but was uncertain how much. In Michigan we have district, circuit, appellate, and Supreme Courts.
That clarifies how MJ used Supreme Court and could be correct for her state then.
To every man his own truth and his own God within.
Don't quit your day job. I don't know what you do for a living but I am 100% sure you are not an attorney. You have absolutely no idea what you speak of. Drop it.
MJ wrote: "Im not worried or frightened.
why would anyone be? "
Oh, gee, I dunno. Maybe because you could lose your kids! Methinks you probably don't have any and have never been subjected to a court tribunal. Been there, done that. You feel naked among strangers. Kit and Goey are right on the mark. Things in court get twisted in the most remarkable ways. Your head spins with unbelief.
perhaps various exceptions, deleting them periodically. Get rid of them. This thread
only reinforces this sentiment. Why keep
material online that potentially can be used against posters in certain situations later on?
Naturally we are individually responsible for
maintaining caution in what we post, and should consider our words carefully before we hit that "Post Now" button.
But I still think cleaning out the archives on a periodic basis - rather than allowing them an indefinite shelf-life - might be a good thing, for the reasons brought up on this thread.
yes indeed I have said war is ugly and folks involved in the system in any fashion is out of my element.
I think the courts are displayed like a war at times and the playing field is not neccesarily just. I think at times dirty ploys are used and money etc. But this is only a forum, I would think it would take a much larger amount of say so(proof) than a net and its thread to prove someone as a unfit parent.
yet as was metioned why risk it?
if someone has a thought they are playing with a dirty war then by all means take what ever precautions you feel you need.
I am only saying it wouldnt frighten me at all my own personal feelings towards what the warning heeds.
I guess it depends on what you write about as well.
( ) I spilled my guts out on the forums MANY times a day regarding my thoughts and feelings about TWI, I literally posted thousands of times. After the Allen lawsuit was filed and my name was put on the witness list I had quite a few "conversations" with TWI attorneys (BOO HISS ) as they were preparing for the trial. One time in particular the attorney began reading back to me whole sections of posts I had made regarding all kinds of subjects.
Kit is correct, don't write anything here that you don't want to live with for the rest of your life. From my understanding the WayGB had
complete notebooks of posts of selected posters. It would not surprise me to learn if we all aren't categorized and cross filed by poster name and topic.
I am not saying this to make anybody scared or for them to stop posting. On the contrary, Greasespot is the only thing in the world that keeps TWI "in check" and even remotely on the level. They know that sooner or later, EVERYTHING they do is going to show up here...I kind of think of us as the Ralph Nader of twi. They KNOW WE ARE HERE and they have to tow the line and work their butts off to keep their secrets.
Post what you are comfortable posting, tell your story, air your soul, spill your guts, just be aware that WE ARE NOT ALONE.
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mj412
Im not worried or frightened.
why would anyone be?
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Steve!
MJ - I'm sorry, that's a narrow point of view.
There are innies that post here.
I repeat, there are INNIES that post here.
Plus there are some outies and some innies in the process of divorce or child custody battles.
It is to those people that Kit is posting. It is very obvious that this information has no value for you, therefore feel free to ignore it.
I think that it is definitely a worthwhile warning.
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mj412
so your saying a innie should be concerned about what they post regarding twi .
I do not think twi would take anyone to court. they are to weak to care what happens in the gossip mill of GS.
maybe someone in a divorce or child custody but this is an open forum and it would be considered hear say at best if they could prove you even wrote it.
It isnt against the law to write untruths , it is very common and done every single day in the media.
maybe an innie that is living a lie of a life and is afraid of being exposed by twi or an ex spouse .
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Steve!
It's not about TWIt taking anyone to court.
There are posters here that have EXPERIENCE in court with their posts being thrown back in their faces.
Hearsay is ADMISSIBLE in a civil case, and even in some criminal cases.
And it's not impossible to prove who wrote something. It's not all that difficult at all, if you have the right connections.
When posters vent, or express deep regrets for past misdeeds or mistreatment of other people, that can be used against them. It can go to show frame of mind, and it can be used to say, "Look at what this person is really like! How can you grant custody of this child to him/her?"
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mj412
I know people may use anything in a war. to say "they win" you Lose.
With people involved in mind numbing cults, brains and compasion tend to take a back seat.
What a legacy for twi and those involved.
Custody of a child is never determined in a civil court it would be either a family or a supreme court order that directs such actions .
All divorce is done in a Supreme court in America.
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Steve!
You are quibbling over semantics.
Hearsay is admissible in both family and supreme courts depending on the nature of the case.
You seem to be of the opinion that the warning to some people to watch what they post is invalid because you personally cannot imagine a situation where it could come up.
You haven't experienced it, therefore it cannot be true.
You should not base your opinions only on what you've experienced, nor should you assume that your opinions are correct, or are the only ones that are correct and everyone else should line up their opinions to match with yours.
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mj412
I think it is valid for those who think it is .
I also believe things and evidence have to be proven in a court.
it is a tiny little group of hicks in a small OHIO small town .
twi doesnt have much power over anything and some paranoid feelings may come from being told twi or its paticipates have some abilities to frighten you to death by fear base threats that in reality are just wisps of bs.
many exway people may still be afraid of what other"believers" can do to them ooo how that was ingrained in the cult.
I for one am not afraid .
If your talking about someone reading a post and confronting you at twi, that is one thing, but I guess if someone wants to be unaware and write on the world wide net you beat your kids to death that is another.
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Goey
MJ,
I think you are being flippant and contentious just for the sake of it.
Kit's warning is a good one. I recall when one poster jokingly mentioned urinating in the fountain at TWI's headquarters. TWI's attorneys used that post to show how they need to control access to their property.
Others have posted things in anger and frustration only to see these things used against them, either in court or in a contfrontation by a spouse or by TWI leadership.
Steve is right. In civil procedings the rules of evidence are different. In these cases the court uses what is called Preponderance of Evidence where the standards of proof are much lower. Hearsay is many times allowed. Preponderance of evidence is looking to see if something is more likey than not. That is enough for a judge to make as decision in many civil proceedings. This is the reason that O.J. lost in his civil trial - the rules of evidence were different than in his criminal trial.
The fact then is that the posts in these forums can in indeed be used in court as evidence. All that has to be determmined is that it was more likely than not that someone posted it.
YOU may not be "worried or frightened" - That is not the point. This isn't all about YOU - or about being "worried and frightened". It is about being wise and cautious, so that folks don't post things that might later on be used against them in some way.
Maybe it is time for you to put you brain and heart in gear and try to see how others might be affected by what they post here.
Goey
"Most of my fondest memories in TWI never really happened"
[This message was edited by Goey on July 03, 2003 at 10:55.]
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mj412
right
but has not the internet been around long enough for people to realize we are writing things down here?
people can and will do what ever they can to hurt one another in a war. I said that, I meant it as agreeing with how some should be careful if they do not want to hear about it again.
but in the case of someone peeing twi didnt sue the poster they got property control.
I am saying twi or a spouse confronting someone is not a court. It may be something people want to avoid and aware of but it is not a court.
child custody and divorce are not civil court cases Goey. ever.
Civil courts are monkey courts everyone knows that Goey and a far cry from losing custody of a child or suing someone for a divorce.
I also said if someone wants to be afraid or aware then be afraid, but confronting by an ex or by twi is not exactly a court hearing.
I would like to hear of actual posts used agaist someone in a real court of Law, not information off the web, but some words someone said in a thread or chat room used in the supreme court concerning a persons character.
I do not think it is valid as evidence and any fifty cent lawyer could get rid of the attempt.
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mj412
I never got involved with the internet during the waydale years.
I guess GS comes from those that posted on waydale about twi. Then they shut down waydale as part of the agreement in court.
People got hurt when this happened and some felt used by the Allens to have posted information then quickly shut up for the amount of money they recieved.(hell yes I may have done the same thing) I admit that.
So I am not as sensitive as some may be concerning this warning. I agree to that. not sharing that history and only thinking I kind of maybe know what may have happened then.
As i said earlier I avoid the courts, I do not give a rats *** what the twi people may think about what I write , and I do not think I write anything I can be sued personly for such as slander etc.
I just know at one time I was alot more frightened of what other people can threaten at me than I am now, and Im glad I do not allow idle threats to bother me.
if someone has a valid concerns and thinks what they write may harm them in some way in a court by all means Kits warning in big red letters should be heeded.
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Cindy!
I agree with Kit...watch what you post.
During my divorce and custody dispute, my lawyer cautioned me about talking, emailing, posting, etc... about the case while it is in progress.
ANY KIND of statments made by me could be used in court against me.
And in ANY kind of court battle, whether it be civil, family, or criminal...it's just not worth taking chances.
The internet is a public forum, and as such, can be accessed by anyone for any reason. That alone should scream caution to those involved in any sort of legal action.
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mj412
yes and I guess if you think you may one day be involved in a legal action.
I do not worry about it but I can see how others may need to be reminded . Courts are just ugly .
twi can not bother me at this point in my life .
I assumed everyone must handle things the way I did I forgot some must deal with being in and these type of confrontations may be possible.
living without that fear has been so great I forgot some still can not . Im sorry.
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rascal
Mj, as far as what has been used from here in court.....when the court case came up where the guy wanted to get permission to visit the fountain and burial sights this year....twi used exerpts taken out of context from here in defense of their position ... ie that if they allowed ex way to visit, vandalism would occur.
Twi can STILL fu-- you up if you have family involved....whether you are afraid of em or NOT.
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Goey
MJ,
Unfortunately, you are wrong and do not know what you are taking about here. Family courts are a part of the civil courts. The rules of Civil Procedure generally apply to divorce and child custody cases. Where are you getting your information from?
"Everyone knows that"? - Hardly. I would not presume to understand what "everyone knows", but I have found my experiences in civil courts to be pretty fair. Civil courts *can* be "monkey courts" but I would guess that the far greater percentage of cases are handled pretty fairly. While the court system can always use some improvement it is too ba taht you have such a low opinion of our court system and project you opnion upon "everyone" else.
I am just guessing here, but did you possibly lose a case in civil/family court and now blame the courts for it?
Goey
"Most of my fondest memories in TWI never really happened"
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washingtonweather
It might be a little tiny cult - in a little tiny Ohio town, but its a little tiny family that is getting its little tiny existence ripped apart, and within it are little tiny hearts that bear protecting.
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mj412
no I do not do the courts just a divorce which is always supreme court.
custody issues are most often decided in supreme court as well.
i do not sue people , no one has ever sued me .
The difference I see in the lower courts such as civil and the other courts is the type and amount of evidence needed to make a case.
the reason I call them monkey courts because it is often cases of less magitude, no laws can be changed due to the rulings.
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Goey
MJ,
You are confused in your legal terminologies. Very confused. What you are calling "supreme court" is no more than civil divorce/custody proceedings.Goey
"Most of my fondest memories in TWI never really happened"
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TheManOfa Thousand ScreenNames
(posted by Abigail)
MJ, it might be wise to know what you are talking about before you speak, particularly when dismissing what is actually good advice.
Court systems (excepting federal courts) vary some from state to state. Perhaps in your state divorce cases are heard by a state supreme court (though I find this very difficult to believe) but that is not true of all states.
In Michigan, such cases are heard in family courts, which are part of the civil, not criminal courts.
The rules of evidence are very different and what you say here can most definitely be used against you in these courts. Civil court is not about 'beyond a reasonable doubt' it is about a 'preponderance of the evidence'. What is and is not admissable evidence is also different than that for criminal law.
Admit you used the spoon as a rod of correction and left a few bruises, it absolutely can hurt you in a custody case, even if you no longer do so.
Admit you let your leadership in TWI do such things to your kids, again, it can hurt your case.
It is not difficult for someone with the proper software or legal backing to trace a handle back to the actual identity of the person posting.
I have used information from the internet, as I said elsewhere, in obtaining a protection order. I was also advised by my attorney to keep such information in case I needed it in a custody battle.
I am a paralegal student MJ, I do have some understanding of the court system. Please check your sources before you dismiss someone's advice, particularly if the advice was not intended for your situation anyway. Perhaps such advice is not necessary for your life, others still stand to benefit from it.
"the reason I call them monkey courts because it is often cases of less magitude, no laws can be changed due to the rulings"
Less magnitute to you, perhaps. But to the person who is fighting for custody or the right to visit their child, these courts have a great deal of power!!!
The lessons repeat until they are learned.
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Steve!
Part of the confusion comes from the state of New York.
In New York, what we in Illinois would call a 'Circuit Court', THEY call it a "Supreme Court". I forget what they call the court that in Illinois we call the Supreme Court. They may call it Superior Court.
In most states, the Supreme Court hears appeals, not original cases.
Oh, and I think that California may follow New Yorks model. But I may be mistaken about that.
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Abigail
Thanks for clearing that up Steve. I knew the court systems varied from state to state but was uncertain how much. In Michigan we have district, circuit, appellate, and Supreme Courts.
That clarifies how MJ used Supreme Court and could be correct for her state then.
To every man his own truth and his own God within.
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Walker1800
MJ-
Don't quit your day job. I don't know what you do for a living but I am 100% sure you are not an attorney. You have absolutely no idea what you speak of. Drop it.
MJ wrote: "Im not worried or frightened.
why would anyone be? "
Oh, gee, I dunno. Maybe because you could lose your kids! Methinks you probably don't have any and have never been subjected to a court tribunal. Been there, done that. You feel naked among strangers. Kit and Goey are right on the mark. Things in court get twisted in the most remarkable ways. Your head spins with unbelief.
That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
Walker
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TheInvisibleDan
I recall there was a thread awhile back
discussing what to do with the archives.
At the time I was tempted to suggest, with
perhaps various exceptions, deleting them periodically. Get rid of them. This thread
only reinforces this sentiment. Why keep
material online that potentially can be used against posters in certain situations later on?
Naturally we are individually responsible for
maintaining caution in what we post, and should consider our words carefully before we hit that "Post Now" button.
But I still think cleaning out the archives on a periodic basis - rather than allowing them an indefinite shelf-life - might be a good thing, for the reasons brought up on this thread.
Danny
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mj412
yes indeed I have said war is ugly and folks involved in the system in any fashion is out of my element.
I think the courts are displayed like a war at times and the playing field is not neccesarily just. I think at times dirty ploys are used and money etc. But this is only a forum, I would think it would take a much larger amount of say so(proof) than a net and its thread to prove someone as a unfit parent.
yet as was metioned why risk it?
if someone has a thought they are playing with a dirty war then by all means take what ever precautions you feel you need.
I am only saying it wouldnt frighten me at all my own personal feelings towards what the warning heeds.
I guess it depends on what you write about as well.
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Radar OReilly
Back in the Waydale days I was a prolific poster
(
) I spilled my guts out on the forums MANY times a day regarding my thoughts and feelings about TWI, I literally posted thousands of times. After the Allen lawsuit was filed and my name was put on the witness list I had quite a few "conversations" with TWI attorneys (BOO HISS 
) as they were preparing for the trial. One time in particular the attorney began reading back to me whole sections of posts I had made regarding all kinds of subjects.
Kit is correct, don't write anything here that you don't want to live with for the rest of your life. From my understanding the WayGB had
complete notebooks of posts of selected posters. It would not surprise me to learn if we all aren't categorized and cross filed by poster name and topic.
I am not saying this to make anybody scared or for them to stop posting. On the contrary, Greasespot is the only thing in the world that keeps TWI "in check" and even remotely on the level. They know that sooner or later, EVERYTHING they do is going to show up here...I kind of think of us as the Ralph Nader of twi. They KNOW WE ARE HERE and they have to tow the line and work their butts off to keep their secrets.
Post what you are comfortable posting, tell your story, air your soul, spill your guts, just be aware that WE ARE NOT ALONE.
Love,
Radar
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