Who we think Jesus is/was is linked for many of us to our TWI experience, thus "About The Way" is as valid a place for this thread (IMHO) as Doctrinal. Imbus is stating an opinion, inviting others to state theirs, and is not intent on starting a logical debate on "who is Jesus".
I personally don't know who Jesus is. Was there a person whom the gospel accounts is based on? Pretty d*mn likely I'd say.
Was he everything the gospels, let alone the epistles, said about him? Doubt it.
I don't believe that it's "all or nothing" as Wierwille taught. I can't see it being all a fabrication, but on the other hand I haven't seen anything to convince me that's it's all godbreathed either.
If I hadn't been born into a Christian family in a predominantly Christian culture, I probably wouldn't even be thinking about it.
Wordwolf, My beliefs are not up for scrutiny neither are my resources. I asked the question wanting to here others belief since TWI.
Fine with me, but you DID bring up these other documents and said something like that they formed the basis of your beliefs. Since you brought them into the discussion, I didn't think they were off-limits, and they SOUND critically important to your own position, so NOT scrutinizing them seems a bad idea for YOU. That having been said, you're an adult. For all of me, you can not-review them or wear them on your head.
Johniam, again same as Wordwolf. To catagorize folks as liberal or literalist speaks of fundemental thinking with a tad of arrogance. I am very cautious about the Bible and will remain so.
I'm sure I wasn't the only one who thought your initial post might have been meant to say "Only intellectually-bereft morons believe the Bible." So, a little exposition DID come in handy.
I do not have a great grasp of the intricacies of the Bible. But I am a recipient of God’s love and have seen his power and love throughout my life.
Reading the gospels he seems like a great guy of gentleness, kindness and love. He really did a lot of great things like heal the sick and feed the hungry, but I am still not clear on why God had to have a son die to redeem mankind legally. (But if someone had to go through all that to redeem us I am sure thankful he did it) However, I have a lot of attorney friends and I tried to explain to them what I learned via VPW as I really have never read it anywhere else (I am sure, however, if he wrote it – it was first written else where)
I do think it makes much more sense that he WAS a man rather than a God/man otherwise who would really care if a God/man went through what he did, after all he would be God and it would not be as big of a deal. (So, I do not believe in the trinity although, I did at one time and he loved me anyway.)
I do know that when I asked him into my heart, I was changed. I still did not have answers but something was very different within the core of me.
Then, later after picturing him in my heart for years, I invited him to get up and walk around. I invited him into locked doors and old dusty wiring that had been in place for years…. Then I started to see changes in my life. I saw things I had done a certain way for years, really could be done differently with a better outcome… I saw deliverance from pain I had carried.
I believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God. I am grateful to him for what he did to enable us to live above the quagmire. I do not really get WHY he had to do it. If I were God I would have just wiped out Lucifer and his buddies and started over again…. But hey, that’s just me… And through much trial and error, I have found that God’s plans have been better than mine.
Jesus Christ is my Lord, my savior, my confidant, my friend, my warrior, my deliverer, my spine to stand and my heart to love. That is who Jesus is to me.
please feel free to untwist the panties that may be stuck in your butt.
Im certain Roy is capable of answering for his own self: and may not need your IM Holier than thou but I will take care of you,(and fix them!) because of your so much the better if not more mouthy (Is the correct term bold?)one to stand in the gap with your all powerful leadership stand which assumes to speak for all whether they ask for it or not.
Re: "If I hadn't been born into a Christian family in a predominantly Christian culture, I probably wouldn't even be thinking about it."
Idn't that the truth. Rabbit's feet, stepping on a crack in the sidewalk, or dreading the boogeyman in the closet we can usually grow out of, but the superstition of religion hangs on with a terrible tenacity...
Johniam, I am all too familiar with the TWI-supported attitude that being a Son of God with All Power frequently meant doing whatever the hell you wanted to do w/o being answerable to anybody, including, if necessary, cops.
Ok, so he probably didn't deserve the ticket. But with him spouting off like that doesn't exactly beef up his case any. He just got lucky. Me, if I were the cop, I would have busted his a** right then and there. (And would have been the case with most cops; trust me on this.) *Then* let's see how far the 'Christ in him' would have gotten him out of the jam. :P--> He would wind up gaining the 'opportunity' to do a little witnessing to the losers in the drunk tank over the weekend.
So he still had the attitude that he could 'beat the rap' with his 'son of God' song-and-dance.
-->
P.S., oh, and spare me the TWI-approved 'lack of peace' tripe please. I'm doing just dandy in the peace dept., thank you very much; its just that I don't think that 'having peace in my life' has to include blithely whitewashing Der Wierwille's reputation, and goosestepping to his Neo-nazi swill.
So your attempt at that 'spiritual call' struck out. Badly!
I know Jesus is more than VPW or anyone else in twit taught about him. I'm still learning who my Lord is. It's a darn shame that VPW became so egotistical in his dogma that he couldnt' see beyond his own human frailties.
Thanks again folks. Let me say..." Foe Me, to take the bible literally would be intellectual suiside,... FOR ME"
Went and saw a movie this day. "What the blankety, blank do we know?" It is the most informed simplistic peice of work I have ever read or seen on Quantuim Physics. There is a moment where Jesus Christ and other great men are mentioned. What is said about Jesus is starteling. If you want to get a different slant on your existence and what you possibly believe...GO see this movie.
quote:Thanks again folks. Let me say..." Foe Me, to take the bible literally would be intellectual suiside,... FOR ME"
That's a great disclaimer. But we are all human beings with intellect.
If it would be "intellectual suicide" for you then why would it not be "intellectual suicide" for anyone else? (You never did explain what intellectual suicide meant.)
If you dug real deep, I think that you might find that it has very little to do actual with "intellect". But then again, you announced that your sources and beliefs are not up for scrutiny, which I take to mean that you are closed to real and meaningful two-way discussion on this -- too bad.
please feel free to untwist the panties that may be stuck in your butt.
Gee, that was clever, did you think that up all by yourself?
Im certain Roy is capable of answering for his own self:
Oh, I'm sure he can...just thought it was ironic that YOU, thought that it was appropriate to make fun of Roy. Maybe if your own grammar and spelling was above reproach, you could throw the grammatical stones.
and may not need your IM Holier than thou but I will take care of you,(and fix them!) because of your so much the better if not more mouthy (Is the correct term bold?)one to stand in the gap with your all powerful leadership stand which assumes to speak for all whether they ask for it or not.
You're assuming an awful lot MJ
imagine that.
Do you REALLY want to get in a ....ing match with me?Edited by Oakspear
Re:"Rabbit's feet...the boogeyman in the closet we can usually grow out of, but the superstition of religion hangs on with a terrible tenacity..."
Yeah, but those who choose to carry squirrels' feet instead of rabbits' feet don't usually kill you over it. In today's world, you follow the wrong grand poohbah and BAM! You're a target!
Heck, even if you DO follow the same leader of the pack, by golly you better not join another denomination. The Sunnis and Shiites are killing each other over in Pakistan even as I type. I think the Catholics and Protestants in Ireland are cooling their heels at the moment so THAT'S good news.
At least the Christians are above that sort of thing now-a-days. Sure, we boiled 'em oil or fried 'em at the stake for heresy a few centuries ago here in this very land... but today, we just pester folks with Sunday liquor laws and the like.
If that pesky Supreme Court would have just kept their nose out of where it didn't belong, we'd still be beseeching the Christian Almighty in public schools. And reading Bible verses during home room.
It's fine for people to believe whatever myths they want but unfortunately they want to make everybody ELSE believe them too!
I think it speaks volumes about TWI, that with all of this discussion and all of our years spent in TWI, very few people who were in/out of TWI can tell anyone else who Jesus Christ was/is.
How sad, we don't know.
What a terrible legacy VPW left us.
For me, its a personal journey. The Bible is a guide post to point the way - it cannot hold all of who Christ is.
We need to look up, not continue to gaze into letters, commas, etc. We need to listen to the comforter that Christ sent into the world, who was not previously abiding in the world, but who now abides within us. The comforter will reveal Christ to us. As Jesus said, now, the truth is within you. We need to listen.
Christ was the first spiritual being to experience humanity. He is cosmic.
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dmiller
Jesus Christ is Saviour, only begotten Son of God, Big Brother, Teacher, Healer, very present help in time of trouble --- what did I forget?
--> 
-->
"spiderman in sandals"
--> 
-->
comic books are for kids Geo -- perhaps you should be the one doing the "growing up"
:)-->
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year2027
God first
Hi all
Who is Jesus to me?
first I know which Jesus you are talking about the Christ
He was the first to raise from the dead but not the first to raise others from the dead
He was born like Adam but he lived after sin came into the world
He was the first not to sin in his life but was temted of all sins
He was the first to allways do the father will even unto death
He heal the sick but he was not the first to heal the sick
He paid the priced so we could be saved from death and sin
he was the first to forgive others sins
He has come into my life and he still today teaches me one on one
Moses saved the flesh of many but Jesus the Christ saved the spirit of man or the image of God created part of men
He my big brother and my best friend
with love Roy
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mj412
how do I sat for awhile?
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dmiller
on your rear .
:D--> 
:D--> 
:D-->
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Oakspear
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Oakspear
Who we think Jesus is/was is linked for many of us to our TWI experience, thus "About The Way" is as valid a place for this thread (IMHO) as Doctrinal. Imbus is stating an opinion, inviting others to state theirs, and is not intent on starting a logical debate on "who is Jesus".
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Oakspear
I personally don't know who Jesus is. Was there a person whom the gospel accounts is based on? Pretty d*mn likely I'd say.
Was he everything the gospels, let alone the epistles, said about him? Doubt it.
I don't believe that it's "all or nothing" as Wierwille taught. I can't see it being all a fabrication, but on the other hand I haven't seen anything to convince me that's it's all godbreathed either.
If I hadn't been born into a Christian family in a predominantly Christian culture, I probably wouldn't even be thinking about it.
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WordWolf
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Dot Matrix
I do not have a great grasp of the intricacies of the Bible. But I am a recipient of God’s love and have seen his power and love throughout my life.
Reading the gospels he seems like a great guy of gentleness, kindness and love. He really did a lot of great things like heal the sick and feed the hungry, but I am still not clear on why God had to have a son die to redeem mankind legally. (But if someone had to go through all that to redeem us I am sure thankful he did it) However, I have a lot of attorney friends and I tried to explain to them what I learned via VPW as I really have never read it anywhere else (I am sure, however, if he wrote it – it was first written else where)
I do think it makes much more sense that he WAS a man rather than a God/man otherwise who would really care if a God/man went through what he did, after all he would be God and it would not be as big of a deal. (So, I do not believe in the trinity although, I did at one time and he loved me anyway.)
I do know that when I asked him into my heart, I was changed. I still did not have answers but something was very different within the core of me.
Then, later after picturing him in my heart for years, I invited him to get up and walk around. I invited him into locked doors and old dusty wiring that had been in place for years…. Then I started to see changes in my life. I saw things I had done a certain way for years, really could be done differently with a better outcome… I saw deliverance from pain I had carried.
I believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God. I am grateful to him for what he did to enable us to live above the quagmire. I do not really get WHY he had to do it. If I were God I would have just wiped out Lucifer and his buddies and started over again…. But hey, that’s just me… And through much trial and error, I have found that God’s plans have been better than mine.
Jesus Christ is my Lord, my savior, my confidant, my friend, my warrior, my deliverer, my spine to stand and my heart to love. That is who Jesus is to me.
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mj412
oakspear
please feel free to untwist the panties that may be stuck in your butt.
Im certain Roy is capable of answering for his own self: and may not need your IM Holier than thou but I will take care of you,(and fix them!) because of your so much the better if not more mouthy (Is the correct term bold?)one to stand in the gap with your all powerful leadership stand which assumes to speak for all whether they ask for it or not.
imagine that.
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Cowgirl
COWABUNGA BATMAN !!
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George Aar
mj,
Re:"please feel free to untwist the panties that may be stuck in your butt."
Uh, gosh, you might wanta check your own in that regard, no?
What was it Oak said that was so crass and unfeeling anyway?
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George Aar
Oakspear,
Re: "If I hadn't been born into a Christian family in a predominantly Christian culture, I probably wouldn't even be thinking about it."
Idn't that the truth. Rabbit's feet, stepping on a crack in the sidewalk, or dreading the boogeyman in the closet we can usually grow out of, but the superstition of religion hangs on with a terrible tenacity...
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mj412
thanks for your concern george Im feeling much better .
do ya think it was a little over the top?
do I care really ? so not to derail this thread if you look up a few posts you can read what my post to oakspear is about.
cowgirl wow what a picture !!! lol
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GarthP2000
The Wizard doth speakest.
Johniam, I am all too familiar with the TWI-supported attitude that being a Son of God with All Power frequently meant doing whatever the hell you wanted to do w/o being answerable to anybody, including, if necessary, cops.
Ok, so he probably didn't deserve the ticket. But with him spouting off like that doesn't exactly beef up his case any. He just got lucky. Me, if I were the cop, I would have busted his a** right then and there. (And would have been the case with most cops; trust me on this.) *Then* let's see how far the 'Christ in him' would have gotten him out of the jam.
:P--> He would wind up gaining the 'opportunity' to do a little witnessing to the losers in the drunk tank over the weekend.
So he still had the attitude that he could 'beat the rap' with his 'son of God' song-and-dance.
P.S., oh, and spare me the TWI-approved 'lack of peace' tripe please. I'm doing just dandy in the peace dept., thank you very much; its just that I don't think that 'having peace in my life' has to include blithely whitewashing Der Wierwille's reputation, and goosestepping to his Neo-nazi swill.
So your attempt at that 'spiritual call' struck out. Badly!
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Nottawayfer
I know Jesus is more than VPW or anyone else in twit taught about him. I'm still learning who my Lord is. It's a darn shame that VPW became so egotistical in his dogma that he couldnt' see beyond his own human frailties.
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excathedra
isn't he the author and finisher of our (you know what i mean) faith ?
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imbus
Thanks again folks. Let me say..." Foe Me, to take the bible literally would be intellectual suiside,... FOR ME"
Went and saw a movie this day. "What the blankety, blank do we know?" It is the most informed simplistic peice of work I have ever read or seen on Quantuim Physics. There is a moment where Jesus Christ and other great men are mentioned. What is said about Jesus is starteling. If you want to get a different slant on your existence and what you possibly believe...GO see this movie.
Thank again.
:D-->
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Goey
That's a great disclaimer. But we are all human beings with intellect.
If it would be "intellectual suicide" for you then why would it not be "intellectual suicide" for anyone else? (You never did explain what intellectual suicide meant.)
If you dug real deep, I think that you might find that it has very little to do actual with "intellect". But then again, you announced that your sources and beliefs are not up for scrutiny, which I take to mean that you are closed to real and meaningful two-way discussion on this -- too bad.
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Oakspear
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Sudo
George,
Re:"Rabbit's feet...the boogeyman in the closet we can usually grow out of, but the superstition of religion hangs on with a terrible tenacity..."
Yeah, but those who choose to carry squirrels' feet instead of rabbits' feet don't usually kill you over it. In today's world, you follow the wrong grand poohbah and BAM! You're a target!
Heck, even if you DO follow the same leader of the pack, by golly you better not join another denomination. The Sunnis and Shiites are killing each other over in Pakistan even as I type. I think the Catholics and Protestants in Ireland are cooling their heels at the moment so THAT'S good news.
At least the Christians are above that sort of thing now-a-days. Sure, we boiled 'em oil or fried 'em at the stake for heresy a few centuries ago here in this very land... but today, we just pester folks with Sunday liquor laws and the like.
If that pesky Supreme Court would have just kept their nose out of where it didn't belong, we'd still be beseeching the Christian Almighty in public schools. And reading Bible verses during home room.
It's fine for people to believe whatever myths they want but unfortunately they want to make everybody ELSE believe them too!
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mj412
only if you sit on the seat oakspear.
your just to all powerful am I suppose to be meek or something now?`
No stones boy .
what is your gig?
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Sunesis
I think it speaks volumes about TWI, that with all of this discussion and all of our years spent in TWI, very few people who were in/out of TWI can tell anyone else who Jesus Christ was/is.
How sad, we don't know.
What a terrible legacy VPW left us.
For me, its a personal journey. The Bible is a guide post to point the way - it cannot hold all of who Christ is.
We need to look up, not continue to gaze into letters, commas, etc. We need to listen to the comforter that Christ sent into the world, who was not previously abiding in the world, but who now abides within us. The comforter will reveal Christ to us. As Jesus said, now, the truth is within you. We need to listen.
Christ was the first spiritual being to experience humanity. He is cosmic.
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Oakspear
Sorry for the derailment kids...
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