P.S I'm not into arguing a position or doctrine. I just want to know what you think personally. Lord knows we have been discouraged from knowing this man that changed history. And the picture that was painted by TWI was so darn vague.
I really don't know the answer to that...I sometimes wonder if twi had it all wrong and just maybe......well you never know and we really won't know for sure until he comes to get us, I guess.
quote:I find tremedous contradictions in the BiBle, although I think that there are spiritual messages in it. I do not believe it literally. For me to take it literal would be intellectual suiside. This I did for 13 yrs.
Imbus,
I also find contradictions in the Bible - just about anyone who has truly studied it has. So what? However, I haven't found anything so "tremendous" that would cause me to to abandon my faith in Jesus Christ.
To me it would be unreasonable to expect a complilation of ancient books and letters, written by human beings and then translated from an extinct language into another language not to have some mistakes, errors and contradictions in it. Yet I still believe it to be quite reliable as a whole. The message still gets through.
TWI told us that if there was one real contradition the "whole Bible would fall to pieces". Bull corn. Black and white thinking. That comes from the notion that every word was dictated directly by God, a doctrine which I do not espouse.
I think that the writers (of the New Testament and Gospels in particular) set about to write an honest and accurate accounting of the life of Jesus based upon their own personal knowledge and experience and possibly from accounts they got from others who were eye- witnesses. They did the best they could and it was quite good considering they didn't write anything until about 40 or more years after Jesus departed.
But, I cannot imagine why it would be "intellectual suicide" to take the account of Jesus literally. I was tested with an IQ of 147 quite some time ago - and I take the account of Jesus literally - his ministry, death, ressurection, etc - and I don't see where my IQ has dropped or died.
Intellect is great and I like it, but it ain't everything. Faith transcends intellect.
BTW, to answer the question, I believe that the Jesus of the Bible was the only begotten son of God, that he died on the cross and three days later, rose from the dead. And see, my brain is still working - or so I have been told.
Imbus: So you think Jesus was just a glorified cult leader like the liberals and other so called "educated" do? I think He is everything the bible says he is and more. Consider that your driver's license was written by humans, too, yet it has authority. It verifies who you are; acceptable in many situations. Just because the bible was written by humans doesn't mean it has no authority. The bible verifies who you are in Christ, also acceptible in many situations. It may not have value to you anymore, but it does to me.
If I get pulled over by a cop, I'll try my driver's license first, but IMO more situations are helped by knowing God than by having a driver's license.
I know a believer who got pulled over by a cop and when the cop came to his window he said, "Hey, man. I'm a son of God!" Cop says, "I don't care if you're a son of a bitch; I need to see your license and registration!" But the guy did NOT get a ticket. Guess you had to be there.
If Im wrong about believing the bible to be a true story of Gods people and His will for all then I lose nothing but some time spent looking at some printed words in a bible.
If your wrong and Jesus is going to return to reign as the King of King and destroy our enimies then it could be bad for you so I read.
Im not saying that as a threat of some sort it is how I think about the subject of to believe or not.
playing it safe I guess.
I need a Lord in my life now I need to know I have a friend that has a powerful love and concern for me.
prayer is my most intimate conversation in all of my days.
If you can not "get that" I do understand because I do not know how ayone can survive with any peace without Jesus as Lord.
but plenty do everyday.
When good things happen I rejoice when bad things happen I cling to the only hope I know that better days are coming.
I don't always agree with WordWolf and Goey, but I do, here. Jesus is God's Son, the perfect man, who died for our sins, was raised by God three days later, ascended into heaven, and will return for his church. He is my intercessor, and a mediator for the unsaved. He is THE way to salvation.
I haven't had my IQ tested recently, but I am a Ph.D. chemist, so my intellect "is still breathing," too.
And, yes, this probaly does belong in the Doctrinal section.
quote:Doesn't this belong in the doctrinal section?
Yes, it probably does, but commenting/complaining in the thread itself about where it belongs not how to address the situation. Complaining/whining about it in the post itself does no good.
If you don't like where a post is located, see that little yellow triangle below the post? Click on it and report the offending post to the admin, if bugs you so much that a post might possibly be in the wrong forum.
One of the great sandnesses to me of twi is that we didn't have Jesus as our friend, didn't have Holy Spirit as our comforter (really warm and snuggly), didn't have God as our father. -- all that was supplanted by twi, vpw et al.
Watchman Nee was probably the pivotal author who brought me into the throne room and introduced me to Jesus.
I cannot give a definitive "who Jesus is" because I have only seen part of him. But that part is so truly lovely.
I have no trouble understanding why people would endure persecution and torture in His name (that's what He promised us as our lot in this life).
I believe that the 'intellectual suicide' isn't referring to an actual mental death or diminishing of one's mental capacity, but rather the blind acceptance of concepts in such a intellectually dishonest and wholesale manner.
Not to say that that is what you are doing tho'. But there are indeed those who embrace concepts totally w/o one ounce of critical and analytical thinking to test and prove one way or another.
The prime example of this that readily comes to mind is that of Smikeol with his precioussssss, PFAL.
:D-->
Johniam,
quote: I know a believer who got pulled over by a cop and when the cop came to his window he said, "Hey, man. I'm a son of God!" Cop says, "I don't care if you're a son of a bitch; I need to see your license and registration!" But the guy did NOT get a ticket. Guess you had to be there.
Gee, so *that* is one of the main things about being a son of God w/ all power is good for: not getting a speeding/traffic ticket even if/when you deserve it? ... Been there, seen that, threw up all over the Takit t-shirt. :(--> I wonder if that was what was taught in TWI's prison outreach: how to beat the rap with PFAL!
thank you for posting it here, imbus. otherwise, i probably wouldn't have seen it
gosh thread police give her a break
i have always believed in jesus ever since i was a little girl. i still do. when i was little he was the son of god but kind of god also
when i was in the way, he was the son of god only
and now.... it's not that big a deal to me.... even though i still believe in him as my lord and savior.... the lord part might be weak (on my part) but the savior part is strong
ps. as far as veepee's statement about how far you'll go spiritually.... patuey (sp?)
I know a believer who got pulled over by a cop and when the cop came to his window he said, "Hey, man. I'm a son of God!" Cop says, "I don't care if you're a son of a bitch; I need to see your license and registration!" But the guy did NOT get a ticket. Guess you had to be there.
Gee, so *that* is one of the main things about being a son of God w/ all power is good for: not getting a speeding/traffic ticket even if/when you deserve it? ... Been there, seen that, threw up all over the Takit t-shirt. I wonder if that was what was taught in TWI's prison outreach: how to beat the rap with PFAL!
OK Mr. Wizard, where in that first paragraph do you document that the guy deserved to get any kind of ticket? That was OBVIOUSLY intended to be light hearted and just the fact that you come back with this vomit inducing guilt trip shows how much peace you have in YOUR life. No thanks.
quote:I believe that the 'intellectual suicide' isn't referring to an actual mental death or diminishing of one's mental capacity, but rather the blind acceptance of concepts in such a intellectually dishonest and wholesale manner.
Garth, I realize that Imbus was not refering to actual mental death, etc - and that it was not literal. I was being somewhat sarcastic.
However "suicide" implies self-inflicted, (usually intentinal) death. - Death of what?
Maybe we should let Imbus explain little better what "intellectual suicide" is and how believing the Bible literally concerning Jesus results in it.
Sometimes when folks leave TWI and begin thinking for themsleves and doing some actual Bible study unreconcilable Bible errors or contridictions may become apparant.
However, IMO to reject the historical Jesus, or even the Bible in total becasue of a biblical contridiction is to still hold to TWI's and Wierwille's teachings on how the Bible falls apart if there is one single error. It's the old "it's all God Word or it's all a lie". Black or White.
Others hit on it bit already. We can form core beliefs on such things as politics, economics,medicine, etc and accpept the text books as authoritive and reliable - not demanding abosolute percection from them.
But when it comes to the Bible and we find one real error or contradiction we want to scrap the whole as unreliable and of no authority.
Wordwolf, My beliefs are not up for scrutiny neither are my resources. I asked the question wanting to here others belief since TWI.
Johniam, again same as Wordwolf. To catagorize folks as liberal ot literalist speaks of fundemental thinking with a tad of arrogance. I am very catious about the Bible and will remain so.
Jut thinking, Never occured to me post this in the doctrinal section. Sorry :(-->
As for me I have the utmost regard for Jesus Christ. He is the only man I know that got it right and did it right. I love and respect him more now than ever, which speaks volumes of what littel I knew before.
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P.S I'm not into arguing a position or doctrine. I just want to know what you think personally. Lord knows we have been discouraged from knowing this man that changed history. And the picture that was painted by TWI was so darn vague.
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vickles
Imbus,
I really don't know the answer to that...I sometimes wonder if twi had it all wrong and just maybe......well you never know and we really won't know for sure until he comes to get us, I guess.
Good topic, btw!!!
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WordWolf
You may not want to argue it, but this IS a doctrinal issue, and not
"About The Way."
You're certainly entitled to your own opinion. I, however, would like to
know these unnamed "other scholarly writings" that you're basing your beliefs
on. You could base them on the latest issue of Spider-Man if you really want
to, but it would NOT be a sound basis for a belief. Similarly, there are more
than a few books out there masquerading as scholarly writings, so you might
want to know if you ARE basing your entire belief system on something far
less credible than the Bible it seeks to undermine.
What do I believe? I believe the Bible to be a credible account of Jesus'
teachings and ministry, and I believe Jesus to be The Messiah, The Son of God.
Well, you asked.
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Jim
One way to get insight is to have a religious conversion and then get over it
Margaret Mead
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Goey
Imbus,
I also find contradictions in the Bible - just about anyone who has truly studied it has. So what? However, I haven't found anything so "tremendous" that would cause me to to abandon my faith in Jesus Christ.
To me it would be unreasonable to expect a complilation of ancient books and letters, written by human beings and then translated from an extinct language into another language not to have some mistakes, errors and contradictions in it. Yet I still believe it to be quite reliable as a whole. The message still gets through.
TWI told us that if there was one real contradition the "whole Bible would fall to pieces". Bull corn. Black and white thinking. That comes from the notion that every word was dictated directly by God, a doctrine which I do not espouse.
I think that the writers (of the New Testament and Gospels in particular) set about to write an honest and accurate accounting of the life of Jesus based upon their own personal knowledge and experience and possibly from accounts they got from others who were eye- witnesses. They did the best they could and it was quite good considering they didn't write anything until about 40 or more years after Jesus departed.
But, I cannot imagine why it would be "intellectual suicide" to take the account of Jesus literally. I was tested with an IQ of 147 quite some time ago - and I take the account of Jesus literally - his ministry, death, ressurection, etc - and I don't see where my IQ has dropped or died.
Intellect is great and I like it, but it ain't everything. Faith transcends intellect.
BTW, to answer the question, I believe that the Jesus of the Bible was the only begotten son of God, that he died on the cross and three days later, rose from the dead. And see, my brain is still working - or so I have been told.
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johniam
Imbus: So you think Jesus was just a glorified cult leader like the liberals and other so called "educated" do? I think He is everything the bible says he is and more. Consider that your driver's license was written by humans, too, yet it has authority. It verifies who you are; acceptable in many situations. Just because the bible was written by humans doesn't mean it has no authority. The bible verifies who you are in Christ, also acceptible in many situations. It may not have value to you anymore, but it does to me.
If I get pulled over by a cop, I'll try my driver's license first, but IMO more situations are helped by knowing God than by having a driver's license.
I know a believer who got pulled over by a cop and when the cop came to his window he said, "Hey, man. I'm a son of God!" Cop says, "I don't care if you're a son of a bitch; I need to see your license and registration!" But the guy did NOT get a ticket. Guess you had to be there.
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mj412
I keep thinking about the phrase
"if Im wrong then".
If Im wrong about believing the bible to be a true story of Gods people and His will for all then I lose nothing but some time spent looking at some printed words in a bible.
If your wrong and Jesus is going to return to reign as the King of King and destroy our enimies then it could be bad for you so I read.
Im not saying that as a threat of some sort it is how I think about the subject of to believe or not.
playing it safe I guess.
I need a Lord in my life now I need to know I have a friend that has a powerful love and concern for me.
prayer is my most intimate conversation in all of my days.
If you can not "get that" I do understand because I do not know how ayone can survive with any peace without Jesus as Lord.
but plenty do everyday.
When good things happen I rejoice when bad things happen I cling to the only hope I know that better days are coming.
If IM wrong then...
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JustThinking
Doesn't this belong in the doctrinal section?
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GeorgeStGeorge
I don't always agree with WordWolf and Goey, but I do, here. Jesus is God's Son, the perfect man, who died for our sins, was raised by God three days later, ascended into heaven, and will return for his church. He is my intercessor, and a mediator for the unsaved. He is THE way to salvation.
I haven't had my IQ tested recently, but I am a Ph.D. chemist, so my intellect "is still breathing," too.
And, yes, this probaly does belong in the Doctrinal section.
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Goey
If you don't like where a post is located, see that little yellow triangle below the post? Click on it and report the offending post to the admin, if bugs you so much that a post might possibly be in the wrong forum.
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Kit Sober
One of the great sandnesses to me of twi is that we didn't have Jesus as our friend, didn't have Holy Spirit as our comforter (really warm and snuggly), didn't have God as our father. -- all that was supplanted by twi, vpw et al.
Watchman Nee was probably the pivotal author who brought me into the throne room and introduced me to Jesus.
I cannot give a definitive "who Jesus is" because I have only seen part of him. But that part is so truly lovely.
I have no trouble understanding why people would endure persecution and torture in His name (that's what He promised us as our lot in this life).
His name is Wonderful, Christ Jesus my lord.
p.s. Goey. Loved your link.
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JustThinking
Goey,
Thanks for using TWI-style reproof instead of just telling me. I didn't realize that is what the triangle was for.
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GarthP2000
Goey,
I believe that the 'intellectual suicide' isn't referring to an actual mental death or diminishing of one's mental capacity, but rather the blind acceptance of concepts in such a intellectually dishonest and wholesale manner.
Not to say that that is what you are doing tho'. But there are indeed those who embrace concepts totally w/o one ounce of critical and analytical thinking to test and prove one way or another.
The prime example of this that readily comes to mind is that of Smikeol with his precioussssss, PFAL.
Johniam,
Gee, so *that* is one of the main things about being a son of God w/ all power is good for: not getting a speeding/traffic ticket even if/when you deserve it? ... Been there, seen that, threw up all over the Takit t-shirt.
:(--> I wonder if that was what was taught in TWI's prison outreach: how to beat the rap with PFAL!
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excathedra
thank you for posting it here, imbus. otherwise, i probably wouldn't have seen it
gosh thread police give her a break
i have always believed in jesus ever since i was a little girl. i still do. when i was little he was the son of god but kind of god also
when i was in the way, he was the son of god only
and now.... it's not that big a deal to me.... even though i still believe in him as my lord and savior.... the lord part might be weak (on my part) but the savior part is strong
ps. as far as veepee's statement about how far you'll go spiritually.... patuey (sp?)
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George Aar
I dunno, to me Jesus is simply Spiderman in sandals.
Mercy people, we're all grown up now. Isn't it about time to abandon our invisible friends?
Probably not...
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excathedra
you have such a way with words ((((((geo.))))))
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johniam
Garth:
quote:Johniam,
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I know a believer who got pulled over by a cop and when the cop came to his window he said, "Hey, man. I'm a son of God!" Cop says, "I don't care if you're a son of a bitch; I need to see your license and registration!" But the guy did NOT get a ticket. Guess you had to be there.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gee, so *that* is one of the main things about being a son of God w/ all power is good for: not getting a speeding/traffic ticket even if/when you deserve it? ... Been there, seen that, threw up all over the Takit t-shirt. I wonder if that was what was taught in TWI's prison outreach: how to beat the rap with PFAL!
OK Mr. Wizard, where in that first paragraph do you document that the guy deserved to get any kind of ticket? That was OBVIOUSLY intended to be light hearted and just the fact that you come back with this vomit inducing guilt trip shows how much peace you have in YOUR life. No thanks.
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Goey
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mj412
Welll Geo
I fought growing up as long as I could, so far so good.
grown ups tend to stop having fun and have strange ideas such as blaming and hate.
my invisable friends are much kinder than the ones i see in my face at times for sure .
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excathedra
who is scott ?
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Goey
Posted by Garth,
Garth, I realize that Imbus was not refering to actual mental death, etc - and that it was not literal. I was being somewhat sarcastic.
However "suicide" implies self-inflicted, (usually intentinal) death. - Death of what?
Maybe we should let Imbus explain little better what "intellectual suicide" is and how believing the Bible literally concerning Jesus results in it.
Sometimes when folks leave TWI and begin thinking for themsleves and doing some actual Bible study unreconcilable Bible errors or contridictions may become apparant.
However, IMO to reject the historical Jesus, or even the Bible in total becasue of a biblical contridiction is to still hold to TWI's and Wierwille's teachings on how the Bible falls apart if there is one single error. It's the old "it's all God Word or it's all a lie". Black or White.
Others hit on it bit already. We can form core beliefs on such things as politics, economics,medicine, etc and accpept the text books as authoritive and reliable - not demanding abosolute percection from them.
But when it comes to the Bible and we find one real error or contradiction we want to scrap the whole as unreliable and of no authority.
The reasoning is inconsistant.
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excathedra
i wonder how i can dislike the bible and still feel the same way i do toward jc ? but that's my choice now, isn't it ?
i am so tired of having the answers, that i actually like not having them
:)-->
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imbus
Thank you all that reply to my question.
Wordwolf, My beliefs are not up for scrutiny neither are my resources. I asked the question wanting to here others belief since TWI.
Johniam, again same as Wordwolf. To catagorize folks as liberal ot literalist speaks of fundemental thinking with a tad of arrogance. I am very catious about the Bible and will remain so.
Jut thinking, Never occured to me post this in the doctrinal section. Sorry
:(-->
As for me I have the utmost regard for Jesus Christ. He is the only man I know that got it right and did it right. I love and respect him more now than ever, which speaks volumes of what littel I knew before.
Thanks for you imput.
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excathedra
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