Also, JW believe that Jesus Christ has already come back (in 1914-1918) and that anyone who speaks in tongues is influenced by Satan because Christ has already come back (that which is perfect is come 1 Corinthians).
I met with a JW once a week for over 3 years to get a good understanding of what they believe. Unless you are one of them....they do the praying...you can't pray with them.
Like the Way, they think they know it all, are God's chosen and they are not meek.........AT ALL.
The church I attended as a youth also thought speaking in tongue was from Satan, but I think it was because the church across the street did so while rolling on the floor and playing with snakes. Freaked me out and I still can't stand snakes. :(-->
Wonder if any other religion holds the same opinion regarding SIT. I never new JW did, thanks Paradiseden. :)-->
To clarify perhaps ultimately, what I would describe the JW church to be like...I would say Unemotional.
It is the dryest, most unemotional church Ive ever seen.
Displays of passion or feeling are...well...they are just not done.
It all purports to be using "reasoning" agruements and I never heard an elder yell, or saw a tear in the eye of a person during a meeting in 20 years of attendance. Emotion is...well, it would be showing weakness. Emotions have to be guarded carefully, lest the devil enter in.
About the most outlandish and most humane spark youll encounter in a meeting in a dub church is a subdued titter if the guy on the stage cracks one of those endlessly repeated lame 'insider' gags in the course of his speech.
When I first went to a Mormon meeting and saw the bishop get tears in his eyes while praising the ladies auxiliary for their hard work...frankly..I was flaberghasted.
Showing emotion's in The Way (twi) is mixed. As a low man on the totem pole you are not to show emotions based on the notion it can rule your life rather than head knowledge. It weakens your guard thus allowing ungodly things to take roost just like you quoted. However, if you are a leader showing emotions it is an indication of "spiritual anger" which is lauded as a very godly thing. For me personally one of the hardest memories to overcome was the tears shed by the top leader a few years back, it made him human, what an odd thought, at the time I was that mentally pliable.
I dug out my copy of Larkin. As it proclaims on the cover, "The Greatest Book on Dispensational Truth in the World". That's the title... not a promo blurb. Typical dispensationalist modesty.
By Clarence Larkin, published by Rev. Clarence Larkin Est., Glenside PA, copyright 1918.
Larkin devotes 5 1/2 pages (164-169) to the Great Pyramid. Two of those pages contain some of his ubiquitous diagrams. He mentions four names, "Prof. Piazzi Smyth", "Sir John Herschel", "Professor H. Mitchell" and a "Dr. Seiss", without citing any of their works.
In the second column of the article, Larkin states, "The cubit of measurement is the Hebrew cubit of 25.025 inches." Two paragraphs later, he refers to "Pyramid inches" without defining what that means. Throughout the rest of the article, all measurements are in what appears to be standard English feet and inches. Larkin equates each inch with one year, and uses the measurements of the passageways and chambers to draw all sorts of conclusions about the timings of the "dispensations".
Larkin "anchors" his speculation regarding the Great Pyramid on Isaiah 19:19-20,
quote: "In THAT DAY shall there be an ALTAR to the Lord in the MIDST of the land of Egypt, and a PILLAR at the BORDER thereof to the Lord. And it shall be for a SIGN and for a WITNESS unto the Lord of Hosts in the Land of Egypt."
What appears to be evident is that no matter how wrong one has been in one's calculations that one's followers are still deluded enough to see something good coming out of it.
One must have been somehow inspired anyway and worth following - one must have had special knowledge, have the right keys, the right missing scriptures, the right biblical mathematics, the right amount of charisma that is not guaranteed to those who succeed you, the right air of exclusivity.
The right claim to knowledge of esoteric mysteries, the right sense that somehow one is more special than the vast majority of mankind.
That out of the billions that have ever lived that your group is the only one who will get special treatment and privileges from the Almighty, and even then not necessarily all if they don't do this and that.
Steve Lortz. That looks very much like the kind of information used by Russell in his "Scripture Studies". He quotes Piazzi Smith also. Smith is the main source in Russells calculations.
I dug out my copy of Larkin. As it proclaims on the cover, "The Greatest Book on Dispensational Truth in the World". That's the title... not a promo blurb. Typical dispensationalist modesty.
By Clarence Larkin, published by Rev. Clarence Larkin Est., Glenside PA, copyright 1918.
Steve,
I have a copy of this classic work as well.
I couldn't resist picking this up a few years ago even if only for Larkin's charming, entertaining charts and artwork. I used to have "Rightly Dividing the Word" by Larkin but I gave that work away recently.
While on this subject we ought not overlook the preterist interpretations in circulation during
I know what you mean about "Larkin's charming, entertaining charts and artwork".
In some ways, they remind me of Lt. Dick Calkin's drawing style. He was the guy who originally drew the "Buck Rogers" comic strip back in the '30s. Sort of naive.
I have a copy of another book entitled "An Atlas of Fantasy" published back in the '70s. It has copies of some of Burrough's working maps for his various worlds, Oz, Narnia, Middle Earth, Earthsea and a zillion others. I usually keep the two volumes shelved together.
I have a copy of another book entitled "An Atlas of Fantasy" published back in the '70s. It has copies of some of Burrough's working maps for his various worlds, Oz, Narnia, Middle Earth, Earthsea and a zillion others. I usually keep the two volumes shelved together.
That sounds like a fun volume.
I'm kicking myself for having gotten rid of a book that my oldest sister gave to me just as I was getting involved with the Way in the late 70s - "The Book of Demons" - which included illustrated drawings for each demon (such as the "gremlin" responsible behind mechanical failures, and invocations for calling them and sending them away). Being a neophyte Christian at the time, my sister's timing in giving me this book was not the best (lol) - but it would be interesting to review today, to compare with Wierwille's own "Advanced Class" catalogue of devils. It had some pretty spooky drawings as I recall.
Regarding Pyramids in Egypt, the problem with it from a JayDub perspective are the terms in which it was referred to in Russells (JW founder) writings:
“The Testimony of Gods Stone Witness and Prophet” is the title of the chapter in Russells volume 2 “Scripture Studies” (Thy Kingdom Come)
That sets the pace for what followeth:
Quote:“The Great Pyramid proves to be a storehouse of important Truth- scientific, historic, prophetic”
Quote: “Its construction was planned and directed by the same divine wisdom, and it is the Pillar of Witness referred to by the prophet”
Quote: “The truths of revelation are owned and testified to by the same great author in this wonderful Stone Witness”.
Quote: “Its wonderful correspondencies with the Bible leave no room for doubt that the same Divine Inspirer of the prophets and apostles inspired this witness also”
Etc.
Of course, all this hokum is claimed as a divinely revealed fact in support of chronological calculations pinpointing the end of the world.
Having declared pyramid measurement calculations to be Divinely revealed “Truth” the author is left in something of a quandary when beliefs in the veracity of pyramid measurements becomes inconvenient due to failure of predicted events to materialize on time.
From there it becomes a matter of how to justify those previously revealed “chronological truths” that failed to be realized.
Ultimately, the most widely practised method of achieving this end is to get rid of the books, and, in time, enough time, deny you ever uttered such “truths”.
House is. Well this thread is wandering around a bit. I dont consider youve derailed anything.
On other matters. relevant to dispensations of equal time length... Ive often wondered if it could be claimed that the period of favour to the jews could be claimed as a "dispensation of the Father" and the period since Christs Baptism claimed as a "Dispensation of the Son", and these periods be established as of equal length.
Extending from this it could then be claimed that we are entering upon a "dispensation of the spirit" in our own day.
Just a theory of mine, but I havent done the math on it.
Def, there is a different kind of "dispensationalism" being discussed on this thread. Not the same as what we've all discussed before. This is more about a peculiarity of Jehovah's Witnesses.
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Paradiseden
Also, JW believe that Jesus Christ has already come back (in 1914-1918) and that anyone who speaks in tongues is influenced by Satan because Christ has already come back (that which is perfect is come 1 Corinthians).
I met with a JW once a week for over 3 years to get a good understanding of what they believe. Unless you are one of them....they do the praying...you can't pray with them.
Like the Way, they think they know it all, are God's chosen and they are not meek.........AT ALL.
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houseisarockin
The church I attended as a youth also thought speaking in tongue was from Satan, but I think it was because the church across the street did so while rolling on the floor and playing with snakes. Freaked me out and I still can't stand snakes.
:(-->
Wonder if any other religion holds the same opinion regarding SIT. I never new JW did, thanks Paradiseden.
:)-->
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TheManOfa Thousand ScreenNames
Ah, I should have known, Refiner.
:D-->
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Steve!
All of those convoluted calculations and "hidden messages", that sounds so much like smikeol's message.
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Refiner
To clarify perhaps ultimately, what I would describe the JW church to be like...I would say Unemotional.
It is the dryest, most unemotional church Ive ever seen.
Displays of passion or feeling are...well...they are just not done.
It all purports to be using "reasoning" agruements and I never heard an elder yell, or saw a tear in the eye of a person during a meeting in 20 years of attendance. Emotion is...well, it would be showing weakness. Emotions have to be guarded carefully, lest the devil enter in.
About the most outlandish and most humane spark youll encounter in a meeting in a dub church is a subdued titter if the guy on the stage cracks one of those endlessly repeated lame 'insider' gags in the course of his speech.
When I first went to a Mormon meeting and saw the bishop get tears in his eyes while praising the ladies auxiliary for their hard work...frankly..I was flaberghasted.
Id never seen such a public display.
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houseisarockin
Showing emotion's in The Way (twi) is mixed. As a low man on the totem pole you are not to show emotions based on the notion it can rule your life rather than head knowledge. It weakens your guard thus allowing ungodly things to take roost just like you quoted. However, if you are a leader showing emotions it is an indication of "spiritual anger" which is lauded as a very godly thing. For me personally one of the hardest memories to overcome was the tears shed by the top leader a few years back, it made him human, what an odd thought, at the time I was that mentally pliable.
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Steve Lortz
I dug out my copy of Larkin. As it proclaims on the cover, "The Greatest Book on Dispensational Truth in the World". That's the title... not a promo blurb. Typical dispensationalist modesty.
By Clarence Larkin, published by Rev. Clarence Larkin Est., Glenside PA, copyright 1918.
Larkin devotes 5 1/2 pages (164-169) to the Great Pyramid. Two of those pages contain some of his ubiquitous diagrams. He mentions four names, "Prof. Piazzi Smyth", "Sir John Herschel", "Professor H. Mitchell" and a "Dr. Seiss", without citing any of their works.
In the second column of the article, Larkin states, "The cubit of measurement is the Hebrew cubit of 25.025 inches." Two paragraphs later, he refers to "Pyramid inches" without defining what that means. Throughout the rest of the article, all measurements are in what appears to be standard English feet and inches. Larkin equates each inch with one year, and uses the measurements of the passageways and chambers to draw all sorts of conclusions about the timings of the "dispensations".
Larkin "anchors" his speculation regarding the Great Pyramid on Isaiah 19:19-20,
All for now.
Love,
Steve
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Trefor Heywood
What appears to be evident is that no matter how wrong one has been in one's calculations that one's followers are still deluded enough to see something good coming out of it.
One must have been somehow inspired anyway and worth following - one must have had special knowledge, have the right keys, the right missing scriptures, the right biblical mathematics, the right amount of charisma that is not guaranteed to those who succeed you, the right air of exclusivity.
The right claim to knowledge of esoteric mysteries, the right sense that somehow one is more special than the vast majority of mankind.
That out of the billions that have ever lived that your group is the only one who will get special treatment and privileges from the Almighty, and even then not necessarily all if they don't do this and that.
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TheManOfa Thousand ScreenNames
So much for "the rain falls on the just and the unjust", huh?
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dmiller
Yup.
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Refiner
Steve Lortz. That looks very much like the kind of information used by Russell in his "Scripture Studies". He quotes Piazzi Smith also. Smith is the main source in Russells calculations.
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TheInvisibleDan
Steve,
I have a copy of this classic work as well.
I couldn't resist picking this up a few years ago even if only for Larkin's charming, entertaining charts and artwork. I used to have "Rightly Dividing the Word" by Larkin but I gave that work away recently.
While on this subject we ought not overlook the preterist interpretations in circulation during
that era -
http://www.preteristarchive.com/ChurchHistory/index.html#TOP
Danny
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Steve Lortz
Thanks for the info, Danny!
I know what you mean about "Larkin's charming, entertaining charts and artwork".
In some ways, they remind me of Lt. Dick Calkin's drawing style. He was the guy who originally drew the "Buck Rogers" comic strip back in the '30s. Sort of naive.
I have a copy of another book entitled "An Atlas of Fantasy" published back in the '70s. It has copies of some of Burrough's working maps for his various worlds, Oz, Narnia, Middle Earth, Earthsea and a zillion others. I usually keep the two volumes shelved together.
Love,
Steve
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TheInvisibleDan
That sounds like a fun volume.
I'm kicking myself for having gotten rid of a book that my oldest sister gave to me just as I was getting involved with the Way in the late 70s - "The Book of Demons" - which included illustrated drawings for each demon (such as the "gremlin" responsible behind mechanical failures, and invocations for calling them and sending them away). Being a neophyte Christian at the time, my sister's timing in giving me this book was not the best (lol) - but it would be interesting to review today, to compare with Wierwille's own "Advanced Class" catalogue of devils. It had some pretty spooky drawings as I recall.
Danny
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Refiner
Well Steve Lortz… everyone,
Regarding Pyramids in Egypt, the problem with it from a JayDub perspective are the terms in which it was referred to in Russells (JW founder) writings:
“The Testimony of Gods Stone Witness and Prophet” is the title of the chapter in Russells volume 2 “Scripture Studies” (Thy Kingdom Come)
That sets the pace for what followeth:
Quote:“The Great Pyramid proves to be a storehouse of important Truth- scientific, historic, prophetic”
Quote: “Its construction was planned and directed by the same divine wisdom, and it is the Pillar of Witness referred to by the prophet”
Quote: “The truths of revelation are owned and testified to by the same great author in this wonderful Stone Witness”.
Quote: “Its wonderful correspondencies with the Bible leave no room for doubt that the same Divine Inspirer of the prophets and apostles inspired this witness also”
Etc.
Of course, all this hokum is claimed as a divinely revealed fact in support of chronological calculations pinpointing the end of the world.
Having declared pyramid measurement calculations to be Divinely revealed “Truth” the author is left in something of a quandary when beliefs in the veracity of pyramid measurements becomes inconvenient due to failure of predicted events to materialize on time.
From there it becomes a matter of how to justify those previously revealed “chronological truths” that failed to be realized.
Ultimately, the most widely practised method of achieving this end is to get rid of the books, and, in time, enough time, deny you ever uttered such “truths”.
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houseisarockin
Refiner, sorry for the derail comment but that last paragraph of yours could be a topic unto itself over in The Way forum.
-->
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Refiner
House is. Well this thread is wandering around a bit. I dont consider youve derailed anything.
On other matters. relevant to dispensations of equal time length... Ive often wondered if it could be claimed that the period of favour to the jews could be claimed as a "dispensation of the Father" and the period since Christs Baptism claimed as a "Dispensation of the Son", and these periods be established as of equal length.
Extending from this it could then be claimed that we are entering upon a "dispensation of the spirit" in our own day.
Just a theory of mine, but I havent done the math on it.
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def59
I am not a proponent of dispensations, but I see some problems with covenant theology as well.
Covenant people like to take a lot the rules for Israel and put them on Christians.
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Raf
Def, there is a different kind of "dispensationalism" being discussed on this thread. Not the same as what we've all discussed before. This is more about a peculiarity of Jehovah's Witnesses.
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def59
Ok
Enlighten me.
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Raf
Def, this page will sum up the discussion, point for point.
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def59
Oh yeah
I read that stuff. I thought there was something new going on.
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Raf
You're a good sport, Def.
We should have a beer sometime. You can try to talk me into the Trinity, and I can try to talk you into karaoke.
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def59
Raf
Since I gave up drinking a decade ago that means I would do karaoke sober.
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