I seem to be speaking in a sealed room...and only kindred spirits hear.
I sit in such a comfortable chair thinking about it. Re-experiencing what I've learned and enjoying that experience again.
Some of what's been shared here I intuitively understand and accept already as truth...whether I knew if before this evening or not doesn't concern me, but I may have.
I must now go back and study in a book I've hardly ever opened before. It's not just that I want it, I need it. I really must have more.
I used to wonder if some of the experiences I've had I really had or if I was merely hallucinating. Now I know I wasn't hallucinating.
SirGuess’s thread of An Interpretation of Tongues - seems to have spurred an inner dialogue... of tongues of the heart.
I like that it has become a thread of trying to say what we want to say… without explaining ourselves.
Having the chance to come and talk about these things at a heart/spiritual level is like… "It's like having a table off in the corner...” " only those who want to "go there", come over and sit for a while”.
Colleen: I would like to get back to you later on your question. You have opened a huge door for discussion… :)--> to discuss the feelings that happen after (or during) a spiritual “Christ visit”. :)--> Huge! I mean really huge!!! (Ever noticed that the feelings are more unforgettable than the words or pictures spoken? Of course. sorry….)
And Ex… "Me, too". It is beyond the emotion icons we are given. Some time ago, (when I first started coming here to the GSC) you said you would love to hear about my beliefs… I declined your offer at that time. But, I can see how you and the GS folks are VERY considerate. Sorry I declined your offer at that time.
And..Krys... I hear ya... When I read your post, I wanted to sit - and - feel - and - think - and - see - what the "Christ-man inside" of me might contribute to the soup-du jour that is brewing… Some GREAT stuff in your post… pages and pages of things you inspired in my heart!! Memories. Visitations. My Mom. A generational history with spiritual things…
I am beginning to think that this thread may come out as if it were extruded, like 5 cloves of garlic through a garlic press... none the same – but all from the same head.
What does Jesus Christ in us feel like it feels like a 1/1000000... times greater than a first kiss from yoir first love
It feels like a 1/1000000.... times more joyful than the joy of a new born child It feels like a 1/100000... times more peaceful than a good night sleep
Its feels like a 1/100000... more powerful than when your were two Its feels a 1/10000...
times more restful than the best bed you ever laid in
Yes word can not show is glory and gentless we have in Christ Nor can numbers ever measure of deeps of the love and truth
So all I know to do is be trankful
with Love Roy
May God the Father, Holy Breath the Mother, and Jesus Christ the Brother give you the saints the brothers and sisters of Christ love, grace, joy and peace
I would be honored to sit in a booth with you! Since you already asked… let me see – How does Jesus/God Feel to me? Like the “Real Deal”. Allow me to try and elaborate.
There was a time when I was past feeling anything that was truly “real” (about 12 years ago… just ask Mrs. Too Gray – she’ll tell ya!). I came back to God to get some answers after TWI.
And what did I get? Answers? Sort of. Most of the answers I got were mostly in the form of questions. But His questions and the results of listening to them fixed things in my chest that had been deeply broken during my Way days.
Christ in us – his spirit, knows what the reality of a “thing” - feels like… I had to learn to feel reality by watching how I felt in response to his questions. You can see this in the scriptures – this ability He has to feel-out the motives and give you a question designed to heal you.
Like when he said “Why callest thou me, good?”
What was the man’s motive in calling him “Good” Master? Just Sucking up? Earn a brownie point or two? Lay a trap for Jesus – while appearing to blend in with the other “followers”?
Jesus uncovered him, in an instant. And in that instant – the man was given a chance to feel. And what he felt, was the reality of his own heart laid open. Jesus drew him out with a question.
We all have motives. His questions filleted me like the heart of a head of a thistle blossom – without damaging the surface (because that stuff changes, naturally). At times I had nothing to say, just ponder what I saw. And that is where he does his best work.
Righteousness has a feeling… and so does self-righteousness. They often look very similar on the surface, but at the heart, they are entirely different. Motive is at the root - and so is the feeling that “fathered” the act.
Being brought back and numbered with the emotionally living has been like a re-birth. “All I know is - that I was once blind, but now I see.”
Feeling the real deal is like true love. You know it when it happens to you.
I’ve found myself writing this as Enigma plays into the headphones.
“Back to Rivers of Belief” is the song playing now.
Not sure what I want to write tonight.
The subject of tongues, in the sense as I have chosen to interpret it, is a vast one.
So many birds in its branches.
So I just comb the posts, feeling for a spot to land.
And I am feeling a little feisty tonight.
;)-->
Hi, Krysilis.
Nothing like finding a wonderful place you forgot that you had forgotten, eh?
Like from a time before we were born.
Being naked in Eden again, but moreso than the first time.
In what seems like wide open space is just a womb against our skin.
Heart and lungs above our head, just as it is in our own chest.
Pumping air and water and blood.
Like a baptism.
Blessed are they who see their birth before it comes.
Like babes, we leap in the womb.
The last enemy begins to be destroyed before we ever meet it.
Death itself begins to be transformed before the eyes of our understanding.
Heck, we might just even escape the pain of its tribulation.
:)-->
I like how Too Gray said “I like that it has become a thread of trying to say what we want to say… without explaining ourselves.”
Cuz there are times when there is little hope of explaining yourself anyway.
Little hope of proving anything via words on a e-forum.
And that tree of life just won’t sit still long enough to become something we could call accurate, anyway.
Yet it is still eternal.
Grows and grows.
Diversifies even as we do.
Like dragons in the wilderness, sometimes.
And there are so many things about it all that will never change.
And nothing ever goes away.
Nothing.
Like us, it all justs moves.
And the pain of this will eventually pass.
All of it.
Sometimes its better to be dumb for a short while than blind for a lifetime.
Our tongues of men being limited to psalms and hymns and spiritual songs.
:)-->
Ok, heer goes….
There is nothing that is not first spiritual and from God.
Everything has a spirit, that has a force or an intention or a purpose.
Spirit being both the underlying reason and result of what simply is.
“The spirit of a thing” means just like it sounds.
Even my car has a spirit to it.
No big deal.
A spirit originally given it by its maker.
I call it "Lazarus the Blue Cockroach." :D-->
The spiritual and supernatural is just natural before it becomes understood in a natural sense.
All of creation exists on seven planes.
Together which, forms the archangel, Lucifer.
Which IS the form of God.
Wisdom and knowledge.
Light and sound.
Beginning with that single sonic note that vibrates constantly (like a father).
The 7 spirits of God unfold before the throne.
Which is also the form of a human being.
The entire created universe is shaped like a human being.
And like a dove in an egg in a nest.
And like a mother with an unborn child.
The Father God is where all things begin.
A pure point of white hot reality.
No ifs, ands or butts.
That is love. Everpresent.
But love is the beginning of all things.
And dare I say…just the beginning.
But I do dare.
Tis a pity that this might bother some.
Those who might say true love comes after all the “real” hard work is done.
Like blaming and attacking and proving and possessing things we think we somehow possess, but we don’t.
We are possessed by that which we think we possess.
So choose your possessions wisely.
We serve them whether we like it or not.
These 7 planes are the spirits of the divine.
They are the angels which express God.
The wisdom unfolds and wraps around us like a cloak.
Diverse.
Expansive.
Cooperative.
Adaptive.
Which is part of why the new Jerusalem is a she.
Descends from heaven above.
But from our beginning,
the microcosmic apparatus of “we” also consists of 7 angels.
No more…no less.
But all wound up inside like a point, at first.
Like a little naked snake (more subtle than any beast of the field).
Like a strand of DNA waiting to divide again.
Waiting to uncoil and learn to “speak” on each plane.
Like speaking in tongues of angels.
There are specific genos of tongues.
Genus. After its kind, and all that.
Each one doing that thing each of our divine parts were meant to do.
On each plane…in action, thought, intent, speech, whatever…
It gets so vast and diverse, the rules and 3D laws tend to crumble.
We are delivered from carnal laws.
Because Love is a better compass than any book.
:)-->
An evil spirit is NOT an enemy.
It is NOT a secret agent of an evil conspiracy sent to ruin our lives.
It IS a disharmony.
A weakness.
A knot.
A muddy spot.
A loose snake in the garden where it simply does not belong.
Though of course we may hate it.
Because all knots and tangles suck while we have them.
But we can learn to laugh at small things.
(once we understand how small they truly are).
But to think a knot has no reason for being there, and so it must simply be cut off, is to cut your own hair. To lose wisdom. To trim the corner of your beard. To try to painfully yank it out often just causes more knots.
To cast out the evil (and I just cringe at the way those words sound), is to heal a living thing without damaging it (if you can – and we can – gentleness is a fruit of the spirit – so eat it – though it helps if you already have the patience).
:)-->
Pergamos is the “worst” rung to stop on and look down.
It is the tip of the pyramid just before the center.
The moon still looks small and insignificant from here.
And a fool makes it this far and turns and looks down at “his” strictly 3d world
That is why it is the seat of Satan.
When your mind stops and sits here, Satan rules.
Not from some secret spiritual underground base, somewhere out there.
But Satan rules from within, in a natural stage of our consciousness.
Where mere threeness is supreme (be it a trinity or a trio of principle or methodology).
Science.
Logic.
Accuracy.
Control.
And the synagogue of Smyrna serves below Pergamos.
And poor Ephesus is just a baby at both of their feet.
“Get thee behind me, Satan,” is to advance beyond this little chair of Pergamos.
Or to challenge one (like Peter) to put down his sword and stop trying to save his "life" by taking that of another.
Its not that “aha! we can cuss people out and call them names if we feel “spiritually justified to do so.”
It would be better to die, seems the bigger lesson to me.
Especially if death has already been overcome.
The pain of it is all that has to be dealt with now.
The reality of it is old news.
Eternal life is realized (not merely "obtained" or "won" – because our eternal life already existed before we ever realized it – which is why it is called “eternal”).
In this regard, the business and politics of what we call the USA is a good example of that same ole whirlpool under an ocean of Satanic thought (especially where popular Christianity moves it). It just jumped the Atlantic a short while ago.
“Put the horse to work. Pay em just enough to eat for a day.”
“Pain of paying your dues and competition is the best motivator.”
“Eat eat eat eat. And poop poop poop poop.”
Yada yada yada...
And it doesn’t matter if the **** piles up and chokes us to death.
(Which is when Ephesus is knocked out of place).
But Satan IS to be transformed into an angel of light.
Not as some deception (though Satan is a paranoid one).
But as a reality.
We do not want to lose our 3rd star. Our 3rd lamp.
We simply want to continue beyond death, bringing it with us like a prodigal son.
We want it to serve in its rightful place under heaven.
Logic and law and science is a spiritual underling.
Because it cannot get around that Pale Horse.
So we just die, just like this Pergamos feared all along.
(though there is always hope beyond this too).
But Thyatira fulfills Pergamos if he’ll let it be so.
Thyatira is where the male (lower 3) and female (higher 3) meet.
We move from competition to cooperation with Christ (via union/yoga…whatever).
The enmity is removed.
We control mostly nothing at all.
Our fate must be realized before it can be escaped.
Paul told the Ephesians that we wrestle “against the prince of the power of the air.”
Because the carnal mind naturally resists the coming of Christ (who IS the prince of the power of the air – even as the heart and lungs are).
In ignorance, we might even consider it wickedness from high places.
But Paul was rooting for the Ephesians to learn this.
It is ok to resist the prince in this way.
This is a natural stage of life.
Like a drop in the bucket.
All babes resist entering the world of air, too.
That is why Mom has to force them out.
Cuz they don’t wanna come on their own.
And the nursemaid may have to help, too.
:)-->
This reminds of the spiritual wrestling match of Jacob.
Trying to balance on the pinnacle of the temple.
He wrestled with a mirror image of himself (a less tangible and distorted version of himself).
And that this would be an intense mental struggle makes sense to me.
“Oh my God! I am less than half way there, and all along I thought I had already arrived at the peak of perfection.”).
And he saw angels climing up and down a ladder.
Angels like expressions like thoughts contemplating those rungs between heaven and earth.
And they revealed his shadow self via a mirror.
What he thought was his enemy.
:)-->
Ok, twas just a few things before I go to bed, I guess.
Sorry if the language is too enigmatic for some.
But can ya imagine if I tried to explain all that in detail?
In “plain English,” whatever the heck that means anymore?
I would be here for a month or more.
But why, if you can fill in your own gaps anyway you see fit?
That is the fun part, anyway - reaching for the rungs on your own.
So I'll ask: should I keep my interpretations of tongues more vague?
Have I ruined anything for anyone?
Wouldn't want to take too much of the fun away.
;)-->
[This message was edited by sirguessalot on March 11, 2004 at 12:16.]
...how you perceive there are more words that describe what an experience can behold for others then what ones previously conceived vistas may have held.
Yes post on For I love food like that I eat what I can now and rest I put in the Frezer of my mind to think it out later
with love Roy
May God the Father, Holy Breath the Mother, and Jesus Christ the Brother give you the saints the brothers and sisters of Christ love, grace, joy and peace
Wecome sat a while take you shoes off enjoy the waters of truth here the water is cool
quote: For here I sat with Jesus Christ being my teacher of all things that pertain to life and truth. For my soul longs to be taught by my spirit as Christ teaching my spirit and it was God who taught Christ.
For Christ was taught one on one by God his father one on one from the day he was creative seed in his flesh mother Mary. What a blessing that most of been for her. And what about John who got things ready for Jesus to be the Christ
For he clean the flesh with had a dead spirit as part of it and then came Christ who won the right for new birth. For before one can take part of a sacrifice who must wash the out side of the body.
For John wash the body so we could receive Christ as a sacrifice by blood the lamb of God. This is how John open the door for all to receive what Christ came to give unto us with great love.
For Christ gave his life out of love not need but love and Yes we needed this but it was not giving out of need because Jesus the Christ did not need it but he love us so must he gave and God love him and us so must he let it happen
Now the pain God as a father and a mother must of went through seeing his son of his blood without sin having to go through this just so we would have a life after life. Now we will never be able to repay God and Christ for the love we have received over 2,000 years ago
I tell you there will never be any greater love than this For the deepest love we know is nothing next to this love giving to us that dark day in history So need to love each other but love God and Christ first
with love Roy
May God the Father, Holy Breath the Mother, and Jesus Christ the Brother give you the saints the brothers and sisters of Christ love, grace, joy and peace
Wecome sat a while take you shoes off enjoy the waters of truth here the water is cool
As has been my Modus Operandi, I read these posts, then a story is stirred in my memory, and a post pops out.
Like a toaster with a broken plunger…sometimes, it just does what it wants to do. :)-->
As I was reading SirGuess’ post – I saw many glimmers. Here is one.
quote: “Logic and law and science is a spiritual underling.”
This is fascinating, to me – but possibly for a different reason. Had a discussion just a few days ago with a friend of mine. Let me tell you the story of “Spiritual Science”.
Years ago, there was a man who studied and experimented at one of our noted National Laboratories. Both curious and gifted in the abilities of critical thought, he was a fascinating individual, a noted scientist by training and profession. He reached into “fringe” areas (assuming there were things he could not see or measure that were affecting his experiments). He allowed his mind to entertain the great unknowns (or the “near-spiritual”) as a way to develop his postulates and experiments for unseen and unexplained forces.
As a result, his research probed the very limits of scientific perception in the 1970s – certainly beyond the plodding, incremental turtle-pace of those who refused to stray more than 1 step from the verifiable. His fellow researchers were chained to baby-step proofs, inspired by miniscule assumptions – always keeping their hand on the prior-proof - they reached, (reluctantly) in fear that IF they should have the boldness to “let go”, they would certainly forsake their altar of the “absolute”. But he was not so chained. He was a man of nearly infinite curiosity.
As a physicist, he explored such grand unexplainable notions as “love”. He observed through verifiable means, that sub-atomic particles responded – behaved, (“felt” if you will) human emotional energies. For his boldness to assert such a thing, and to demonstrate the results through the use of an electron microscope, he was ostracized.
But he was heard… by an Eclectic Christian who attended one of his lectures. This man was interested in the power of spoken words, spoken by spiritual inspiration. And this scientist’s statement about the power of love forever changed this man’s course.
I am friends with the Eclectic man of whom I write and echo his recent statement. “You know, science is more likely to reveal the evidence of the things of God than Theology. The Church had a great chance to discover spiritual realities – but instead went the route of trying to explain the very God, Himself – rather than the realities of the spiritual world.”
Science, is definitely an underling. Theology’s claim of explaining God rather than the things of God, is ill-founded. And people argue about theology, while many of the realties of the gifts from God lay waiting to be uncovered.
It is a wonderful world out there…if you want to see it that way.
When she and Adam were born I would think they had spiritual awareness
But did they have natural awareness or had they learn to use it yet
In the Book of Enoch I read that the devil talk with Eve every day for 2 years before she ate of that tree
Did the devil teach Eve to think by the five sences and learn that way
For God had taught her by the spiritual sences
Just thinking out loud
with Love Roy
May God the Father, Holy Breath the Mother, and Jesus Christ the Brother give you the saints the brothers and sisters of Christ love, grace, joy and peace
Wecome sat a while take you shoes off enjoy the waters of truth here the water is cool
Once a seal has been broken the door opens and it wont be closed again. Cool. I forget a lot of things, but I don't UNlearn them. They seem to pop back just when I need them.
Having just read this entire thread, I would hope it hasn't gone dead.
So I thought I'd copy some corresponding thoughts from another thread (~clik here~):
"Being saved" has changed a lot for me since PFAL. It has become more of an unfolding of layers of worldviews from a common center. And this unfolding is a heightening, broadening, lengthening, deepening experience. Quadralateral growth, if you will. Our tree has many branches.
If we want Christ to be born from within us, we must devote our lives to being born again. No, not just for our own sake, but for that of the world. Faith without works is lifeless, yada yada...
We already experience things during our own spiritual unfoldment before our rational mind even catches up and understands what is happening. And our spiritual state can spike, which is often confusing and more spasmodic, even causing certain levels of drunkeness and desperation (like TWI and the ilk).
(But the fish still does not know he is wet. Just as the babe in the womb does not know he is not yet born. And until we are born, all the direct "air" is out of reach, "trapped" beyond a luminous veil.)
And there are practices that elevate us to spiritual plateaus, which bring a continuity to our experience of peace and liberation. We begin to see that all the signs that we need to guide us in life are already in front of us, as always. We can become rationally spiritual, and not just religious, and not just rationally non-religious. Our actions and heart change, often in leaps, compared to the usual crawl.
Spiritual experience and practice are vital to climbing from plateau to plateau to any point of fulfillment. How spiritually afraid of the dark we are determines how much we learn and unfold in our own wisdom of our salvation. So with trust and love, we enter the deep with our candles held high. No, not to vanquish foes, but to see and learn.
To the depth and degree we learn and practice love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, etc..., we will experience an unfolding of the corresponding spiritual manifestations.
The sciences and understanding of dreams, visions, signs, prophecies, times, and healings and such are exercised and increase. Promoting further practice love, joy, peace, etc...
"Now" becomes good enough for all good things. Love, joy, peace, etc... always, regardless.
And that is some kind of salvation, imo.
If ever I meet someone like this (and there are people in this state of mind), I would be a fool not to consider them saved from something, or re-born in some sense of the word.
For now, I will be content with a grin in the womb.
---
btw - anyone interested in names of groups and links and books and practices and such I've mentioned can email me, I guess. It would take me months to compile any sort of comprehensive list of resources. Besides, so much depends on where we are in life, what we've already learned and experienced, etc...
peace,
Todd
---
For the benefit of us ex-way, I did a quick search and came up with some links to a few of "Judeo/Christianity's" more adventurous schools of thought.
Me and a big truck, from Phoenix to Salt Lake City (for a big ballroom art show) and back.
Stranger after stranger makes for a real twilight zone experience.
And downtown SLC has a real strange vibe, anyway.
On the road, I was thinking about the GSC a lot, regarding spiritual things, so I thought I’d post a bit more on this thread in the best ex-way lingo I can muster. As usual, it’s a long, loose ramble, but its not like yer waiting for me to finish or something. Consider it an exercise to help me comb through some thoughts on my writing project. And responses do help.
Enjoy
;)-->
---
Re: an unfolding of worldviews from a common center…
According to the Book of Revelation (which reveals Christ), there are only 7 “spirits” before the throne of God. In other words, everything in creation can be understood in light of these 7 planes/frequencies (of 1ness/singularity, of 2ness/duality, of 3ness/triunity, etc… and so forth to 7ness).
Our human form is represented by all 7 of these spirits, which reside in specific places called churches (also commonly called chakras). And each spirit of our overall arch-spirit (our Christness = all 7 elements together) is represented by a distinct state of mind, or worldview.
To the depth and degree we “get” this, we can recognize and speak in and interpret these “tongues” (which brings us into our 8ness and 9ness), and even engage in the publication of what may even be considered divine writ (via our 10ness – two hands).
Now, these “levels” are not like numbers on a flat surface, or linear rungs on a ladder to the sky. But nesting spheres within spheres within spheres (like in the opening line of Genesis – the dove and the egg). 1ness is within 2ness is within 3ness, etc… But, from within the nesting spheres, progression may appear as a linear chain or string connecting the innermost to the outermost (like a tree growing from the center of a ball).
Each view is meant to work with the other views. As our consciousness evolves, we do not destroy our earlier states of mind, but swallow them whole in a greater state of mind, which then is to include them as underling (and thus, fulfill and heal them and make them a part of the whole = salvation).
1ness is the core center at the bottom, which bottom is shared by all other spirits (like where the stem meets all the inner and outer leaves of the flower). As spiritual beings, we unfold from the bottom (this is not a figure of speech). I cannot say enough about being rooted and grounded in love.
To see with the “eye of Christ” is to open and align all lenses so we can see through them all at once. If we always look through one lens alone, we will stagnate there. Something clogs the flowing from heaven to earth to heaven again. Sometimes, we get stuck on a few lenses alone, and our mouth will always reveal our spiritual addictions. This is what can make that spirit (our spirit) an “evil” thing in our lives. The evilness of it must be cast out (or rather, combed out like a knot or tangle).
What I want to do is draw a brief picture of what each view might look like all alone, as well as what each looks like in a healthy state, in hopes your understanding of spiritual things will benefit.
1)
To be trapped in oneness is to be trapped in a state of pain and need and hunger. We see it when a person is primarily egocentric and self-centered. And such extreme selfishness breeds and inbreeds physical illness, which comes from things like eating garbage just to take away emotional pain (which never does). When a culture is trapped in oneness, it is rife with selfish acts, even unto violence and raping and pillaging. Oneness is primarily a masculine force.
We see a lot of this in the more barbaric tribal cultures, like in Africa where men think they can rape 10-year old virgins to rid themselves of aids, or a culture that breeds child-molesters (such as the U.S.). “Victory at all costs” is the mantra of those who see only themselves and their interests. The white horse always rides forth to conquer from afar.
But a healthy oneness will manifest in physical health. The lamp of Ephesus will simply need less because its needs are efficiently and effectively met. Wise fasting, wholeness that comes from a good diet and exercise, and a selflessness that includes self (just less) are signs that the wick of this lamp is trimmed and its oil is full. A newborn babe’s smile is the best representation of a healthy Ephesus I can think of at the moment. A tree of life is given, though it is a mere seed at this time. Love is the 1st fruit. The symbol is a spiral, like a seed waiting to unwind infinitely.
2)
to be trapped in twoness is to be trapped in a state of pleasure or otherness. It’s the dark side of sex-drugs and rock-n-roll. It is the orgy of the religious mob. It is democracy, alone and mindless. It’s the principle of massing-up. When we are addicted to otherness, we seek only the company of friends and like-mindedness, which manifests as cultic behavior (whether led or not led).
Twoness is primarily a feminine energy. If a culture or group is focused here, the girls will lead the men with their sexuality, and a lot of unwanted pregnancies will result. Though, because oneness is not the dominant, you won’t see as many young mothers dying, but rather, a lot of unwanted pregnancies and single moms (which leads to the baby sacrifices and such in ancient cultures). As well as a lot of men pairing off over their conquests (at least they are trying to impress, rather than just take what they want). “If it feels good do it” is the mantra of those who are consumed by lust, and they usually can’t get enough. Party-crashers and untouchables are booted out into the street.
But a healthy twoness manifests in true friends. And this is epitomized by the one who has the will to befriend anyone they meet. Or the one who could be shut in jail and have a friend, even while alone in the dark. One who can enjoy the company of all people is one whose second lamp is trimmed. A first date or a first kiss represents a healthy twoness. Shaking hands. Clapping hands in applause. Joy is the second fruit. One who can enjoy whatever is there, is one who has fulfilled this stage. The symbol: great Tao (the yin yang) represents this well. A healthy sexuality manifests.
3)
to be trapped in threeness is to be trapped in purely systematic thinking. The control freaks. The legalists. The rulemakers. Those who think the pinnacle of truth is justice, law, order and rule. Patriarchal agrarian militants. Fundamental theisms. Addicted to trinity-thinking, like a scale with 2 pans (=3). It seeks only functionality. Like industrialists. When this worldview dominates, it subjects 1 and 2 for “their own good.” It the seat of the kings of the earth, for the 3rd lamp is the highest point one can reach with the carnal mind. Organized violence, such as war (rather than the anarchy of sick 1ness, though, either way, neither 1 nor 3 likes being told what to do by others.). This one likes people to work for just enough to eat for the day (like the orders given to the black horse). It is the king at the top of a pyramid, leading the masses below as easily as a barking dog. Fear! Fear! Fear!
3 is primarily a masculine energy, and when such masculinity is the rule of law, you get 3 strictly-masculine faces on the trinity. This is the spiritual homosexuality that causes the downfall of the carnal world. Pergamos, when ill, is the man-only club. All feminine energy is put below (though it comes from above). “The stock market is the pinnacle of american freedom” or “property rights (i.e. control) is the epitome of freedom” are the mantras. Greed manifests when 3ness is broken and/or alone. 3ness alone is the most easily offended and frightened, it seems. Control control control control….or eeek!
But a healthy 3ness is represented by the family. Father (1ness), mother (2ness) and offspring (neutral 3ness, which leads back to father). It is epitomized by a balanced and easy system of control, not just control for desperate control’s sake. The Shire, of Tolkien’s work reminds me of a healthy 3ness. Industrious, but in more in harmony with 1-2 and 4-7. A good judge (like Solomon) really knows what to do when a 2 is wrestling over a 1. The eye at the top of a pyramid represents this well. A good, fair economy for all. Peace is the 3rd fruit. If we seek peace as the controller, we manifest an honest faith.
Keep peace when there is peace.
Make peace when there is war.
The Prince of Peace says so.
Do this, and you’ll have your faith.
The terrified will not, cannot, understand this.
All they can see is the tick-tock of the pendulum (which is the eye of 3ness).
4)
to be trapped in 4ness is to be trapped in the cycles of birth and death. Those who see only this cycle will mourn and weep and cry for the circular nature of life. They see injustice well, though lack the solutions. The left versus the right is epitomized by the struggle between 3ness versus 4ness. I would say they are both blind, but they actually see their own worldview quite well (though the fish does not know it is wet). 4ness alone is blindly liberal in their sacrifices, though it does little good alone. They may even foolishly say “everything is equal, and no view is better than any other view, because we are all trapped in the same cycles.” The green flatland.
4ness is primarily a feminine force, and is represented by the arts which express the darknesses of life (quite vividly at times, which, of course, shocks the fundamental 3s and pleasure-seeking 2s, who are mostly blind and/or frightened to the mortal realities which 4 sees so well). But when 4 is alone, it sees only the grim reaper, and often spends its time in ashes with broken shards of clay, lamenting for themselves, mostly (David spent some time here, so did Job – we all do). “Woe is me,” is the mantra of a broken 4. Watches the wheels go round and round and does little but b!tch.
But a healthy fourness sees death as the crossroads, not the enemy. It is comfortable with inevitability. It sees the nature of the cycle, and so rejoices at the coming dawn. “Reincarnation” and “astrology” are two subjects closely associated with this, and actually help propel us beyond the fire of it. The clock and the cycles of rebirth and the shape of the cross represent this CROSSroads between 1 and 7.
Our 4ness is fulfilled and the pale horse overcome when we understand the nature of eternal life, and that we begin life in a cycle of carnal nature (thus, re-in-carnation). Death is the last enemy that must be destroyed to move beyond the cycle of 1234123412341234, as represented by Ezekial’s vision and the four beasts, etc… Though, this cycle is often seen more like 123212321232123 to the mind stuck in threeness. Or 121212121212121212 to the mind stuck in 2ness. Or 1111 to the mind stuck in 1ness.
4 is the flaming sword that keeps us from eden. It is the four corners of the altar. The four givens. The four inevitables. It is the point between heaven and earth (earth being represented by the lower 3, heaven being represented by the upper 3). It is “the yoga.” It is the divine yoke. Rightfully so, it leads us back to 1 (pain and need) if we do not eat the fruit of longsuffering (which is to actually seek and fulfill pain). Gifts of healing are all about timing. Knowing when and where to plant the seed. Understanding the nature of fate and how very few (if any) choices we have in life are dominant themes in the carnal cycle of the material world. To be able to comprehend and act upon fate and our “lucky stars” (4th day of Genesis, remember?) is to see how small we are in the earth (1 thru 3).
4 is where heaven and earth “get it on” and conceive offspring. Michael (3) and the dragon (5) spin round and round this centerpoint. It is the great “hinge” or axle. The point of conception. There is much healing in this, which is why gifts of healing are the manifestation of eating the fruit of longsuffering. To fulfill this fourth lamp is to “escape” the carnal cycles, which is not an escape, but an acceptance of all that is, which renders us unmoved by the great ping-pong ball machine of life. This is an “escape” without ever really leaving anything (which is the only escape there really is).
From here on “out” (5-7) things become more difficult to explain well. And by this, I mean, enter at your own risk. If you’ll notice, that there is woe associated with the 5th and latter spirits. This is because the heavenly realm is NOT bliss. It is not free of pain. It is not free of trouble. Those who flee such things and seek only 1,2,3 or 4 will hide in caves of dogma, or howl even louder at the thought.
Thus, hell is found in heaven, like a lake of fire. But those who can deal with this, will find a baptism of fire. For you, the sun moon and stars will change (for they are not what they seem). For you, the walls that hide the great mysteries of God will come crashing down, (thus, Babylon is really a wonderful place to feast once the “walls” come down.).
In the end, Christ prefers neither heaven nor hell. Alone and/or unfulfilled, each spiritual plane is a place of hell and torment. If we want to “serve God,” we should be able to dwell in each with courage and fearlessness. Touching lepers, ya know? Preferring neither heaven nor hell, willing to enter the deepest of deeps for the sake of all.
Here is where our divine black and white world begins to obliterate into a radiant spectrum of light. The complexity increases a bit.
5)
to be trapped in fiveness is to be trapped in a paranormal experience. Or, when a person learns some metaphysical trick and gets addicted to it. If the “knees are weak” (1 thru 4 are unhealthy and unprepared), this person may get greedy and use their one little trick to control, or seek pleasure, or serve just themselves, or even try to bitterly fulfill the cycle of fourness. This is sorcery. This is witchcraft. And scientists and businessmen and Christians and Buddhists and Islamics and Jews practice sorcery. If 2 is cultic, and 3 is the king of the cult, 5 is OCcultic. If 3 is physics, 5 is metaphysics.
Oddly enough, this realm of 5ness is also the rational mind. 5 is the randomizer. The theorist (3) at work (5). It is the great experimental mind. 3ness is heir to 5ness’s experiments. Evolution reaches out and tries something new, always. 5 is what moves the cutting edge along. It is bold and naked and willing to scrap everything mortal for spiritual experience. Thus, the serpent, the dragon, the pentagram. Willing and able to get those mortal kids in eden to die so they could spiritually evolve. Nice trick.
And so when someone whose lower self is not healthy tries to dabble in sorcery/paranormal (like VPW kinda did), they get bit and poisoned. Because they are messing with higher spiritual realities while still stuck in the cycle of the 4 creatures/horses. Agony, ecstasy, control and fear subvert the ability to minister.
A culture that will experiment on its own people (like the drug industry, or FDA, or many other such R&D tycoons) epitomizes the 5ness alone. Cruel animal experiments are probably the bottom of the bucket (considering the 5th day’s association with animals). 5ness alone, especially without compassion (from 4) is a cold nasty creature. “Humans are worth more than animals,” they might say.
The dark side of communism and/or socialism reminds me of fallen 5ness. An experiment in uber-rationale society (to the point of certain kinds of oblivion.) Like I said, its always Michael (3ness, like blindly patriotic USA) and the dragon (5ness) fighting over the girl’s egg (4ness).
But a healthy 5ness experiments with compassion, first. To the depth and degree you practice and experiment random acts of kindness (especially among strangers and enemies), the 5 gift ministries will blossom like fireworks. Workings of miracles will abound. Strange and sudden results will blow your mind. Because your 4ness is healthy, most of all.
A healthy 1 strengthens 2.
A healthy 2 strengthens 3.
A healthy 3 strengthens 4.
Etc…
We practice a diversity of gentleness (5th fruit), we are flexible and easy and adaptable to the vast diversity of miraculous encounters in life. We can literally feel subtle shifts in the air, in people’s eyes, in a rock or a tree. Especially if 4 is healthy (that thread I posted on the sending/receiving technique is like a wind on your embers in this matter. Take it to the street, and you’ll see what I mean). A five-pointed star represents 5ness better than anything I know. It’s a solid square of a 4 with a wild thing of a point to keep you on your toes.
6)
To be trapped in 6ness in to be trapped in your own subtle mental realm. It what happens if our 3rd eye opens, and so we can see spiritual things (whereas 5ness has more of a feeling nature), but if 6 is alone, we are haunted by our own visions. There is little understanding of them. If our ability to rationally explore them (via healthy 5ness) is diminished, we may believe our own vision (though we do not understand it).
Perhaps VP and LCM saw a few cool and groovy things, but if their compassion and rational thinking was diminished, they would worship their own visualizations like an idol. An unhealthy 6 is why men fall on their face when they have angelic encounters. False prophets are often those who see something once and spend the rest of their lives promoting it. They peak or spike in spiritual experience and vision, but never plateau (due to lack of stability, which is gained by a healthy 4ness). The vision or dream is quite real, but they “blow it” by applying it wrongly all their lives.
An example of a society addicted on 6ness is a religion that gets legit visions and does not understand them. Perhaps they lack the heart to do anything healing with them. Or they lack the experience to see how it applies. They might even hole up somewhere and stimulate their 3rd eye and just watch this spiritual TV all the time, and think they are actually in the show. Happens all over the world, in every age.
But a healthy 6ness (which means it is in harmony with and strengthened by other spiritual planes) sees things and does not “wig out.” A prophet sees the big clock and little clock (as opposed to the middle clock of the carnal mind). A prophet sees the trends and bigger cycles. A prophet sees the patterns and trajectories that cause miracles (which is why 5ness strengthens 6ness – cuz if you have a habit/plateau of stimulating miraculous encounter via gentleness, you will have enough subtle experiences to see to predict the patterns in the nature of creation in the first place.).
To see such spiritual things, is not to see a static reality, but to see the animate and reactionary nature of things. To see how things can always work out for goodness (6th fruit), regardless how they look now. To see trajectories. Like a spiritual weatherman. Predictions, but not guarantees. Predictions based on “if things continue…”. To truly see why everything happens for a reason. It just math, mostly.
And it is also to see ahead to 7, the finish line. A star of David represents 6ness better than anything I know. 6 lines used to make 2 overlapping triangles (masc. and fem), which makes a 7th space.
7)
to be trapped in 7ness is to have a messiah complex. You see the full spectrum of being within yourself, and you think you are the only one who has it. Or, when one has climbed this high, they think this is where you are supposed to stop, like you have attained the pinnacle. You see all and are all. But just because you can finally say, “I AM,” does not mean you have done anything at all. Because to reach this point IS to be born again. Its now that the great work begins. Everything up til now was gestation and development in the womb of the holy spirit.
In other words, if you reach this stage and think you have “finally arrived,” you are right, but all you have really arrived at is the tit. So smile baby, you have nothing to brag about. This is where a new Jerusalem comes down from heaven. But momma dove still has a lot of comforting to do.
This is a healthy 7ness. There is not much to it. The spectrum is always faithful, in light and sound. It is the alpha to omega of our Christness. When the 7th seal breaks in our lives, there is just a period of silence as we admire it. Nothing more, nothing less. And so its time to grow up.
The Caduceus is a good representation of 7ness and Christ.
The brass serpent lifted in the wilderness for healing and wholeness.
8)
to be trapped in 8ness is to be stuck in the great conversation. Talking talking talking about things, just for the sake of talking.
But, if we are healthy in sevenness, we actually have something to talk about. We can communicate of and along the spiritual planes, regardless of race, religion, creed, etc. This requires a meekness, or a flexibility to whomever we are talking to. I do it in sales all the time. We change ourselves for the sake of other, and we can talk, because the other may not always do it, or know to do it. Pentecost reminds me of this. What was new was that the apostles could finally do it (the spirit has been there from the beginning). And it took “some guy” to demonstrate the full spectrum to get them talking (after a 9-day mediation period, of course).
9)
to be trapped in 9 is to be trapped in integration and interpretation of all these things. To systematically systematize everything. Can be very confusing. A one-way mouthpiece, so to speak. Constant interpreting of every sign, miracle, wonder and healing that comes along. This means that which means this which means that, on and on and on.
But if we are healthy in 9ness, we know when and where to interpret. Which is why temperance is the 9th fruit. If we can truly interpret the spiritual planes of life, we must control ourselves, discipline ourselves. Consider carefully all things.
I can only hope this thread has done this (interpreting tongues) for some of you. It was hard work. I am holding back as much as I can. I intentionally try NOT to get too concrete, and this is to keep what I write from being taken too seriously. Sounds funny, but it is important to me. In other words, I am not gonna try to make bread from stone. I purposely keep it all a bit fluid (though I am working on a more synthesized version – see #10.)
10)
to be trapped in 10ness is to be trapped in some penultimate set of laws. Its like worshipping the works of our hands (5+5). All we can see is 10 10 10 10 10, with little understanding of why there are 10 in the first place (because it’s the easiest number for us dopes to remember, I suppose).
But a healthy 10ness is the ability to publish spiritual truths in lasting concretion. To provide a simple neutral framework that can be remembered by any child, simply because he can count them off on his fingers (like two tablets of stone). Kids never forget that thing that thrilled them, even into their elder years.
;)-->
Heerz a quick summation.
I’ll quickly pick one word each.
1) Our need
2) Our want
3) Our control
4) Our union
5) Our diversity
6) Our calculator
7) Our true name
8) Our conversations
9) Our explanations
10) Our frameworking
Of course, numbers go on forever, and there are important numbers like 12 and 24 (which are just extensions of 3ness and 4ness), but I already did enough damage here, it seems.
Hi Todd- I read through your post quickly- I'll come back and look at it again. Don't have any questions about it yet. One thing it reminds me of is the idea of the ennegram and personality types.
Are you familiar with it? In your context of unfolding growth, I think it would relate to how people are "stuck" because their personalities are "protecting" them from a basic fear.
The terminology is similar though and I know you are using it differently. I can't ask any inspiring questions until I have separated your terminology from ennegram terminology.
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krys
I seem to be speaking in a sealed room...and only kindred spirits hear.
I sit in such a comfortable chair thinking about it. Re-experiencing what I've learned and enjoying that experience again.
Some of what's been shared here I intuitively understand and accept already as truth...whether I knew if before this evening or not doesn't concern me, but I may have.
I must now go back and study in a book I've hardly ever opened before. It's not just that I want it, I need it. I really must have more.
I used to wonder if some of the experiences I've had I really had or if I was merely hallucinating. Now I know I wasn't hallucinating.
Post on - please - as time and energy allow.
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jezusfreaky
Ok...here's an expansion...
What does God/Jesus feel like???
When I am grieving I feel I can crawl up in His lap and cry on His shoulder...
When I am joyful I feel Him smiling and laughing at my goofiness
He feels like He has an incredible sense of humor...I mean look a the Platypus! That's one funny lookin' critter!
When I have hurt Him, He feels silent and distant to me...(that may be my own perception, however...)
When I'm alone and praying and worshipping Him, He feels warm and cozy...
How 'bout you guys???
C'mon in Krys...we're basking in Him and the water's jes fine!
:)-->
Peace and Love.
Love y'all,
-Colleen
GO VOLS!!
''...show a little faith, there's magic in the night, you ain't a beauty, but hey, you're alright, oh, and that's alright with me...''
-Bruce Springsteen
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excathedra
this thread loves me (smiley or wink just doesn't do it)
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Too Gray Now
SirGuess’s thread of An Interpretation of Tongues - seems to have spurred an inner dialogue... of tongues of the heart.
I like that it has become a thread of trying to say what we want to say… without explaining ourselves.
Having the chance to come and talk about these things at a heart/spiritual level is like… "It's like having a table off in the corner...” " only those who want to "go there", come over and sit for a while”.
Colleen: I would like to get back to you later on your question. You have opened a huge door for discussion…
:)--> to discuss the feelings that happen after (or during) a spiritual “Christ visit”. 
:)--> Huge! I mean really huge!!! (Ever noticed that the feelings are more unforgettable than the words or pictures spoken? Of course. sorry….)
And Ex… "Me, too". It is beyond the emotion icons we are given. Some time ago, (when I first started coming here to the GSC) you said you would love to hear about my beliefs… I declined your offer at that time. But, I can see how you and the GS folks are VERY considerate. Sorry I declined your offer at that time.
And..Krys... I hear ya... When I read your post, I wanted to sit - and - feel - and - think - and - see - what the "Christ-man inside" of me might contribute to the soup-du jour that is brewing… Some GREAT stuff in your post… pages and pages of things you inspired in my heart!! Memories. Visitations. My Mom. A generational history with spiritual things…
I am beginning to think that this thread may come out as if it were extruded, like 5 cloves of garlic through a garlic press... none the same – but all from the same head.
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jezusfreaky
You're right Ex...this thread and it's thread-ees love you!
:)-->
Too Gray...slide into the back booth with me...let's chat!
:D-->
Peace and Love.
Love y'all,
-Colleen
GO VOLS!!
''...show a little faith, there's magic in the night, you ain't a beauty, but hey, you're alright, oh, and that's alright with me...''
-Bruce Springsteen
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year2027
Hi All
What does Jesus Christ in us feel like it feels like a 1/1000000... times greater than a first kiss from yoir first love
It feels like a 1/1000000.... times more joyful than the joy of a new born child It feels like a 1/100000... times more peaceful than a good night sleep
Its feels like a 1/100000... more powerful than when your were two Its feels a 1/10000...
times more restful than the best bed you ever laid in
Yes word can not show is glory and gentless we have in Christ Nor can numbers ever measure of deeps of the love and truth
So all I know to do is be trankful
May God the Father, Holy Breath the Mother, and Jesus Christ the Brother give you the saints the brothers and sisters of Christ love, grace, joy and peace
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Too Gray Now
Roy: I heard every word!
JesusFreaky:
I would be honored to sit in a booth with you! Since you already asked… let me see – How does Jesus/God Feel to me? Like the “Real Deal”. Allow me to try and elaborate.
There was a time when I was past feeling anything that was truly “real” (about 12 years ago… just ask Mrs. Too Gray – she’ll tell ya!). I came back to God to get some answers after TWI.
And what did I get? Answers? Sort of. Most of the answers I got were mostly in the form of questions. But His questions and the results of listening to them fixed things in my chest that had been deeply broken during my Way days.
Christ in us – his spirit, knows what the reality of a “thing” - feels like… I had to learn to feel reality by watching how I felt in response to his questions. You can see this in the scriptures – this ability He has to feel-out the motives and give you a question designed to heal you.
Like when he said “Why callest thou me, good?”
What was the man’s motive in calling him “Good” Master? Just Sucking up? Earn a brownie point or two? Lay a trap for Jesus – while appearing to blend in with the other “followers”?
Jesus uncovered him, in an instant. And in that instant – the man was given a chance to feel. And what he felt, was the reality of his own heart laid open. Jesus drew him out with a question.
We all have motives. His questions filleted me like the heart of a head of a thistle blossom – without damaging the surface (because that stuff changes, naturally). At times I had nothing to say, just ponder what I saw. And that is where he does his best work.
Righteousness has a feeling… and so does self-righteousness. They often look very similar on the surface, but at the heart, they are entirely different. Motive is at the root - and so is the feeling that “fathered” the act.
Being brought back and numbered with the emotionally living has been like a re-birth. “All I know is - that I was once blind, but now I see.”
Feeling the real deal is like true love. You know it when it happens to you.
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sirguessalot
Hi, all.
Ironic.
I’ve found myself writing this as Enigma plays into the headphones.
“Back to Rivers of Belief” is the song playing now.
Not sure what I want to write tonight.
The subject of tongues, in the sense as I have chosen to interpret it, is a vast one.
So many birds in its branches.
So I just comb the posts, feeling for a spot to land.
And I am feeling a little feisty tonight.
Hi, Krysilis.
Nothing like finding a wonderful place you forgot that you had forgotten, eh?
Like from a time before we were born.
Being naked in Eden again, but moreso than the first time.
In what seems like wide open space is just a womb against our skin.
Heart and lungs above our head, just as it is in our own chest.
Pumping air and water and blood.
Like a baptism.
Blessed are they who see their birth before it comes.
Like babes, we leap in the womb.
The last enemy begins to be destroyed before we ever meet it.
Death itself begins to be transformed before the eyes of our understanding.
Heck, we might just even escape the pain of its tribulation.
I like how Too Gray said “I like that it has become a thread of trying to say what we want to say… without explaining ourselves.”
Cuz there are times when there is little hope of explaining yourself anyway.
Little hope of proving anything via words on a e-forum.
And that tree of life just won’t sit still long enough to become something we could call accurate, anyway.
Yet it is still eternal.
Grows and grows.
Diversifies even as we do.
Like dragons in the wilderness, sometimes.
And there are so many things about it all that will never change.
And nothing ever goes away.
Nothing.
Like us, it all justs moves.
And the pain of this will eventually pass.
All of it.
Sometimes its better to be dumb for a short while than blind for a lifetime.
Our tongues of men being limited to psalms and hymns and spiritual songs.
Ok, heer goes….
There is nothing that is not first spiritual and from God.
Everything has a spirit, that has a force or an intention or a purpose.
Spirit being both the underlying reason and result of what simply is.
“The spirit of a thing” means just like it sounds.
Even my car has a spirit to it.
No big deal.
A spirit originally given it by its maker.
I call it "Lazarus the Blue Cockroach."
:D-->
The spiritual and supernatural is just natural before it becomes understood in a natural sense.
All of creation exists on seven planes.
Together which, forms the archangel, Lucifer.
Which IS the form of God.
Wisdom and knowledge.
Light and sound.
Beginning with that single sonic note that vibrates constantly (like a father).
The 7 spirits of God unfold before the throne.
Which is also the form of a human being.
The entire created universe is shaped like a human being.
And like a dove in an egg in a nest.
And like a mother with an unborn child.
The Father God is where all things begin.
A pure point of white hot reality.
No ifs, ands or butts.
That is love. Everpresent.
But love is the beginning of all things.
And dare I say…just the beginning.
But I do dare.
Tis a pity that this might bother some.
Those who might say true love comes after all the “real” hard work is done.
Like blaming and attacking and proving and possessing things we think we somehow possess, but we don’t.
We are possessed by that which we think we possess.
So choose your possessions wisely.
We serve them whether we like it or not.
These 7 planes are the spirits of the divine.
They are the angels which express God.
The wisdom unfolds and wraps around us like a cloak.
Diverse.
Expansive.
Cooperative.
Adaptive.
Which is part of why the new Jerusalem is a she.
Descends from heaven above.
But from our beginning,
the microcosmic apparatus of “we” also consists of 7 angels.
No more…no less.
But all wound up inside like a point, at first.
Like a little naked snake (more subtle than any beast of the field).
Like a strand of DNA waiting to divide again.
Waiting to uncoil and learn to “speak” on each plane.
Like speaking in tongues of angels.
There are specific genos of tongues.
Genus. After its kind, and all that.
Each one doing that thing each of our divine parts were meant to do.
On each plane…in action, thought, intent, speech, whatever…
It gets so vast and diverse, the rules and 3D laws tend to crumble.
We are delivered from carnal laws.
Because Love is a better compass than any book.
An evil spirit is NOT an enemy.
It is NOT a secret agent of an evil conspiracy sent to ruin our lives.
It IS a disharmony.
A weakness.
A knot.
A muddy spot.
A loose snake in the garden where it simply does not belong.
Though of course we may hate it.
Because all knots and tangles suck while we have them.
But we can learn to laugh at small things.
(once we understand how small they truly are).
But to think a knot has no reason for being there, and so it must simply be cut off, is to cut your own hair. To lose wisdom. To trim the corner of your beard. To try to painfully yank it out often just causes more knots.
To cast out the evil (and I just cringe at the way those words sound), is to heal a living thing without damaging it (if you can – and we can – gentleness is a fruit of the spirit – so eat it – though it helps if you already have the patience).
Pergamos is the “worst” rung to stop on and look down.
It is the tip of the pyramid just before the center.
The moon still looks small and insignificant from here.
And a fool makes it this far and turns and looks down at “his” strictly 3d world
That is why it is the seat of Satan.
When your mind stops and sits here, Satan rules.
Not from some secret spiritual underground base, somewhere out there.
But Satan rules from within, in a natural stage of our consciousness.
Where mere threeness is supreme (be it a trinity or a trio of principle or methodology).
Science.
Logic.
Accuracy.
Control.
And the synagogue of Smyrna serves below Pergamos.
And poor Ephesus is just a baby at both of their feet.
“Get thee behind me, Satan,” is to advance beyond this little chair of Pergamos.
Or to challenge one (like Peter) to put down his sword and stop trying to save his "life" by taking that of another.
Its not that “aha! we can cuss people out and call them names if we feel “spiritually justified to do so.”
It would be better to die, seems the bigger lesson to me.
Especially if death has already been overcome.
The pain of it is all that has to be dealt with now.
The reality of it is old news.
Eternal life is realized (not merely "obtained" or "won" – because our eternal life already existed before we ever realized it – which is why it is called “eternal”).
In this regard, the business and politics of what we call the USA is a good example of that same ole whirlpool under an ocean of Satanic thought (especially where popular Christianity moves it). It just jumped the Atlantic a short while ago.
“Put the horse to work. Pay em just enough to eat for a day.”
“Pain of paying your dues and competition is the best motivator.”
“Eat eat eat eat. And poop poop poop poop.”
Yada yada yada...
And it doesn’t matter if the **** piles up and chokes us to death.
(Which is when Ephesus is knocked out of place).
But Satan IS to be transformed into an angel of light.
Not as some deception (though Satan is a paranoid one).
But as a reality.
We do not want to lose our 3rd star. Our 3rd lamp.
We simply want to continue beyond death, bringing it with us like a prodigal son.
We want it to serve in its rightful place under heaven.
Logic and law and science is a spiritual underling.
Because it cannot get around that Pale Horse.
So we just die, just like this Pergamos feared all along.
(though there is always hope beyond this too).
But Thyatira fulfills Pergamos if he’ll let it be so.
Thyatira is where the male (lower 3) and female (higher 3) meet.
We move from competition to cooperation with Christ (via union/yoga…whatever).
The enmity is removed.
We control mostly nothing at all.
Our fate must be realized before it can be escaped.
Paul told the Ephesians that we wrestle “against the prince of the power of the air.”
Because the carnal mind naturally resists the coming of Christ (who IS the prince of the power of the air – even as the heart and lungs are).
In ignorance, we might even consider it wickedness from high places.
But Paul was rooting for the Ephesians to learn this.
It is ok to resist the prince in this way.
This is a natural stage of life.
Like a drop in the bucket.
All babes resist entering the world of air, too.
That is why Mom has to force them out.
Cuz they don’t wanna come on their own.
And the nursemaid may have to help, too.
This reminds of the spiritual wrestling match of Jacob.
Trying to balance on the pinnacle of the temple.
He wrestled with a mirror image of himself (a less tangible and distorted version of himself).
And that this would be an intense mental struggle makes sense to me.
“Oh my God! I am less than half way there, and all along I thought I had already arrived at the peak of perfection.”).
And he saw angels climing up and down a ladder.
Angels like expressions like thoughts contemplating those rungs between heaven and earth.
And they revealed his shadow self via a mirror.
What he thought was his enemy.
Ok, twas just a few things before I go to bed, I guess.
Sorry if the language is too enigmatic for some.
But can ya imagine if I tried to explain all that in detail?
In “plain English,” whatever the heck that means anymore?
I would be here for a month or more.
But why, if you can fill in your own gaps anyway you see fit?
That is the fun part, anyway - reaching for the rungs on your own.
So I'll ask: should I keep my interpretations of tongues more vague?
Have I ruined anything for anyone?
Wouldn't want to take too much of the fun away.
[This message was edited by sirguessalot on March 11, 2004 at 12:16.]
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Ginger Tea
...how you perceive there are more words that describe what an experience can behold for others then what ones previously conceived vistas may have held.
Even if someone else shares your vision ~
I think it's lovely!
Ginger
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year2027
Hi Todd
Yes post on For I love food like that I eat what I can now and rest I put in the Frezer of my mind to think it out later
May God the Father, Holy Breath the Mother, and Jesus Christ the Brother give you the saints the brothers and sisters of Christ love, grace, joy and peace
Wecome sat a while take you shoes off enjoy the waters of truth here the water is cool
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year2027
Hi All
Some words of prophecy
May God the Father, Holy Breath the Mother, and Jesus Christ the Brother give you the saints the brothers and sisters of Christ love, grace, joy and peace
Wecome sat a while take you shoes off enjoy the waters of truth here the water is cool
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Too Gray Now
As has been my Modus Operandi, I read these posts, then a story is stirred in my memory, and a post pops out.
Like a toaster with a broken plunger…sometimes, it just does what it wants to do.
:)-->
As I was reading SirGuess’ post – I saw many glimmers. Here is one.
This is fascinating, to me – but possibly for a different reason. Had a discussion just a few days ago with a friend of mine. Let me tell you the story of “Spiritual Science”.
Years ago, there was a man who studied and experimented at one of our noted National Laboratories. Both curious and gifted in the abilities of critical thought, he was a fascinating individual, a noted scientist by training and profession. He reached into “fringe” areas (assuming there were things he could not see or measure that were affecting his experiments). He allowed his mind to entertain the great unknowns (or the “near-spiritual”) as a way to develop his postulates and experiments for unseen and unexplained forces.
As a result, his research probed the very limits of scientific perception in the 1970s – certainly beyond the plodding, incremental turtle-pace of those who refused to stray more than 1 step from the verifiable. His fellow researchers were chained to baby-step proofs, inspired by miniscule assumptions – always keeping their hand on the prior-proof - they reached, (reluctantly) in fear that IF they should have the boldness to “let go”, they would certainly forsake their altar of the “absolute”. But he was not so chained. He was a man of nearly infinite curiosity.
As a physicist, he explored such grand unexplainable notions as “love”. He observed through verifiable means, that sub-atomic particles responded – behaved, (“felt” if you will) human emotional energies. For his boldness to assert such a thing, and to demonstrate the results through the use of an electron microscope, he was ostracized.
But he was heard… by an Eclectic Christian who attended one of his lectures. This man was interested in the power of spoken words, spoken by spiritual inspiration. And this scientist’s statement about the power of love forever changed this man’s course.
I am friends with the Eclectic man of whom I write and echo his recent statement. “You know, science is more likely to reveal the evidence of the things of God than Theology. The Church had a great chance to discover spiritual realities – but instead went the route of trying to explain the very God, Himself – rather than the realities of the spiritual world.”
Science, is definitely an underling. Theology’s claim of explaining God rather than the things of God, is ill-founded. And people argue about theology, while many of the realties of the gifts from God lay waiting to be uncovered.
It is a wonderful world out there…if you want to see it that way.
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Kit Sober
fruit => nourishment
The concept of fruit providing nourishment was very impressive (as in impression on me).
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year2027
Hi All
I have been thinking about Eve some
When she and Adam were born I would think they had spiritual awareness
But did they have natural awareness or had they learn to use it yet
In the Book of Enoch I read that the devil talk with Eve every day for 2 years before she ate of that tree
Did the devil teach Eve to think by the five sences and learn that way
For God had taught her by the spiritual sences
Just thinking out loud
May God the Father, Holy Breath the Mother, and Jesus Christ the Brother give you the saints the brothers and sisters of Christ love, grace, joy and peace
Wecome sat a while take you shoes off enjoy the waters of truth here the water is cool
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def59
Roy,
A minor point here.
But do you know how to operate the spell checker mechanism on your computer?
Your arguments would come off oh so much better if your sentences made sense.
You sound like an intelligent guy. Your writing makes you come off as a simpleton.
I can help if you like.
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year2027
God
Hi Def59
Yes I use spell check must of the time but some times I write in the post but most of the times I use it
Yes I am trying to learn every day how to write and talk better
I do know the less one leaves out words when writing the easier it is to understand what was wrote
Thanks for calling me intelligent because that blesses me
I have all ways been a simple person One who did not care about worldly things
And yes I will take any help you give me but I tell you that I may not understand it as fast as some would
But I will give it a try but I most tell the thing that held me back that I ‘ am still getting over with God's help
When I was young a doctor said I had a mental block but my Mom and Dad did not believe them and send me to school any way
I went until the 11 grades than I got a GED and some Telephone and Electric classes
But never had a teacher that did not act like I was slow until I got bible classes and not just Way classes
But lets give it a try
with love Roy
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DrtyDzn
Once a seal has been broken the door opens and it wont be closed again. Cool. I forget a lot of things, but I don't UNlearn them. They seem to pop back just when I need them.
Having just read this entire thread, I would hope it hasn't gone dead.
Jerry
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sirguessalot
Hi all.
Just a quick hello to say a proper goodbye, I suppose.
My path is taking me far and wide.
And posting well takes a lot of time from other projects.
A quick thanks to all for participating on this thread.
This place (of peoples) has been wonderful.
The God is the weirdest freakin thing!
:P-->
Roy,
You just keep asking, my friend.
The questions lead you like a lamp of wisdom.
Answers are just dust under yer feet.
And let all the scriptures of the world be yer map,
but keep letting Love be yer compass. It'll take you farther, any day.
Beyond any devil. Any maps. Or any gaggle of Gods.
Def, you crack me up.
Not sure what else to say to you.
Peace. Good luck.
Kit,
It was really good to see ya.
Yeah. Fruit as "evidence in court" seems a common hang up in earthly Bibledum.
But all good food is medicine. Like a tree of life. Leaves for healing.
Starting with Love. Always. Which seed may become the root of wisdom.
Too Gray,
Hey! I've finally been able to get my feet on the road a lot more lately.
(Big smiles - and you know why.)
Thanks a ton for hanging out with me here.
Dirty12,
Thanks for the mouth-to-mouth attempt on this thread.
I'm glad yer memory was stirred.
Ginger,
Yes, even if....
Even if.
Again, thanks all. JFreaky, Krys, Square Peg, Danny, E, and anyone I might have missed.
My email is open again.
I hope to keep in touch with all the connections I've made here.
Namaste,
Todd
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def59
Well sir,
My motto always has been, if you can't laugh with me, at least laugh at me.
:D-->
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year2027
God
Hi All
This tread has alot of good imput that I like to talk more about
with love Roy
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ckeer
Roy- you are a blessing and inspirtion.
I am reading through this thread and digesting it slowly. There is so much.
Be happy to talk about it but I don't know what to say right now.
God's Peace
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sirguessalot
I'm glad you guys read and enjoyed.
I thought this thread was lost for good.
So I thought I'd copy some corresponding thoughts from another thread (~clik here~):
"Being saved" has changed a lot for me since PFAL. It has become more of an unfolding of layers of worldviews from a common center. And this unfolding is a heightening, broadening, lengthening, deepening experience. Quadralateral growth, if you will. Our tree has many branches.
If we want Christ to be born from within us, we must devote our lives to being born again. No, not just for our own sake, but for that of the world. Faith without works is lifeless, yada yada...
We already experience things during our own spiritual unfoldment before our rational mind even catches up and understands what is happening. And our spiritual state can spike, which is often confusing and more spasmodic, even causing certain levels of drunkeness and desperation (like TWI and the ilk).
(But the fish still does not know he is wet. Just as the babe in the womb does not know he is not yet born. And until we are born, all the direct "air" is out of reach, "trapped" beyond a luminous veil.)
And there are practices that elevate us to spiritual plateaus, which bring a continuity to our experience of peace and liberation. We begin to see that all the signs that we need to guide us in life are already in front of us, as always. We can become rationally spiritual, and not just religious, and not just rationally non-religious. Our actions and heart change, often in leaps, compared to the usual crawl.
Spiritual experience and practice are vital to climbing from plateau to plateau to any point of fulfillment. How spiritually afraid of the dark we are determines how much we learn and unfold in our own wisdom of our salvation. So with trust and love, we enter the deep with our candles held high. No, not to vanquish foes, but to see and learn.
To the depth and degree we learn and practice love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, etc..., we will experience an unfolding of the corresponding spiritual manifestations.
The sciences and understanding of dreams, visions, signs, prophecies, times, and healings and such are exercised and increase. Promoting further practice love, joy, peace, etc...
"Now" becomes good enough for all good things. Love, joy, peace, etc... always, regardless.
And that is some kind of salvation, imo.
If ever I meet someone like this (and there are people in this state of mind), I would be a fool not to consider them saved from something, or re-born in some sense of the word.
For now, I will be content with a grin in the womb.
---
btw - anyone interested in names of groups and links and books and practices and such I've mentioned can email me, I guess. It would take me months to compile any sort of comprehensive list of resources. Besides, so much depends on where we are in life, what we've already learned and experienced, etc...
peace,
Todd
---
For the benefit of us ex-way, I did a quick search and came up with some links to a few of "Judeo/Christianity's" more adventurous schools of thought.
Contemplative Outreach Ltd.
The Spiritual Eldering Institute
The Essenes
Resources for Gnosticism and Nag Hammadi
Jewish Roots of Eastern Christian Mysticism
Christian Mysticism
Christian Mysticism
Book List
Kabbalah FAQ
Hermetic Kabbalah
Kabbalah
Christian Counterpoint Forum
Enjoy
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sirguessalot
Hi, all.
Its been about a week on the road for me.
Me and a big truck, from Phoenix to Salt Lake City (for a big ballroom art show) and back.
Stranger after stranger makes for a real twilight zone experience.
And downtown SLC has a real strange vibe, anyway.
On the road, I was thinking about the GSC a lot, regarding spiritual things, so I thought I’d post a bit more on this thread in the best ex-way lingo I can muster. As usual, it’s a long, loose ramble, but its not like yer waiting for me to finish or something. Consider it an exercise to help me comb through some thoughts on my writing project. And responses do help.
Enjoy
---
Re: an unfolding of worldviews from a common center…
According to the Book of Revelation (which reveals Christ), there are only 7 “spirits” before the throne of God. In other words, everything in creation can be understood in light of these 7 planes/frequencies (of 1ness/singularity, of 2ness/duality, of 3ness/triunity, etc… and so forth to 7ness).
Our human form is represented by all 7 of these spirits, which reside in specific places called churches (also commonly called chakras). And each spirit of our overall arch-spirit (our Christness = all 7 elements together) is represented by a distinct state of mind, or worldview.
To the depth and degree we “get” this, we can recognize and speak in and interpret these “tongues” (which brings us into our 8ness and 9ness), and even engage in the publication of what may even be considered divine writ (via our 10ness – two hands).
Now, these “levels” are not like numbers on a flat surface, or linear rungs on a ladder to the sky. But nesting spheres within spheres within spheres (like in the opening line of Genesis – the dove and the egg). 1ness is within 2ness is within 3ness, etc… But, from within the nesting spheres, progression may appear as a linear chain or string connecting the innermost to the outermost (like a tree growing from the center of a ball).
Each view is meant to work with the other views. As our consciousness evolves, we do not destroy our earlier states of mind, but swallow them whole in a greater state of mind, which then is to include them as underling (and thus, fulfill and heal them and make them a part of the whole = salvation).
1ness is the core center at the bottom, which bottom is shared by all other spirits (like where the stem meets all the inner and outer leaves of the flower). As spiritual beings, we unfold from the bottom (this is not a figure of speech). I cannot say enough about being rooted and grounded in love.
To see with the “eye of Christ” is to open and align all lenses so we can see through them all at once. If we always look through one lens alone, we will stagnate there. Something clogs the flowing from heaven to earth to heaven again. Sometimes, we get stuck on a few lenses alone, and our mouth will always reveal our spiritual addictions. This is what can make that spirit (our spirit) an “evil” thing in our lives. The evilness of it must be cast out (or rather, combed out like a knot or tangle).
What I want to do is draw a brief picture of what each view might look like all alone, as well as what each looks like in a healthy state, in hopes your understanding of spiritual things will benefit.
1)
To be trapped in oneness is to be trapped in a state of pain and need and hunger. We see it when a person is primarily egocentric and self-centered. And such extreme selfishness breeds and inbreeds physical illness, which comes from things like eating garbage just to take away emotional pain (which never does). When a culture is trapped in oneness, it is rife with selfish acts, even unto violence and raping and pillaging. Oneness is primarily a masculine force.
We see a lot of this in the more barbaric tribal cultures, like in Africa where men think they can rape 10-year old virgins to rid themselves of aids, or a culture that breeds child-molesters (such as the U.S.). “Victory at all costs” is the mantra of those who see only themselves and their interests. The white horse always rides forth to conquer from afar.
But a healthy oneness will manifest in physical health. The lamp of Ephesus will simply need less because its needs are efficiently and effectively met. Wise fasting, wholeness that comes from a good diet and exercise, and a selflessness that includes self (just less) are signs that the wick of this lamp is trimmed and its oil is full. A newborn babe’s smile is the best representation of a healthy Ephesus I can think of at the moment. A tree of life is given, though it is a mere seed at this time. Love is the 1st fruit. The symbol is a spiral, like a seed waiting to unwind infinitely.
2)
to be trapped in twoness is to be trapped in a state of pleasure or otherness. It’s the dark side of sex-drugs and rock-n-roll. It is the orgy of the religious mob. It is democracy, alone and mindless. It’s the principle of massing-up. When we are addicted to otherness, we seek only the company of friends and like-mindedness, which manifests as cultic behavior (whether led or not led).
Twoness is primarily a feminine energy. If a culture or group is focused here, the girls will lead the men with their sexuality, and a lot of unwanted pregnancies will result. Though, because oneness is not the dominant, you won’t see as many young mothers dying, but rather, a lot of unwanted pregnancies and single moms (which leads to the baby sacrifices and such in ancient cultures). As well as a lot of men pairing off over their conquests (at least they are trying to impress, rather than just take what they want). “If it feels good do it” is the mantra of those who are consumed by lust, and they usually can’t get enough. Party-crashers and untouchables are booted out into the street.
But a healthy twoness manifests in true friends. And this is epitomized by the one who has the will to befriend anyone they meet. Or the one who could be shut in jail and have a friend, even while alone in the dark. One who can enjoy the company of all people is one whose second lamp is trimmed. A first date or a first kiss represents a healthy twoness. Shaking hands. Clapping hands in applause. Joy is the second fruit. One who can enjoy whatever is there, is one who has fulfilled this stage. The symbol: great Tao (the yin yang) represents this well. A healthy sexuality manifests.
3)
to be trapped in threeness is to be trapped in purely systematic thinking. The control freaks. The legalists. The rulemakers. Those who think the pinnacle of truth is justice, law, order and rule. Patriarchal agrarian militants. Fundamental theisms. Addicted to trinity-thinking, like a scale with 2 pans (=3). It seeks only functionality. Like industrialists. When this worldview dominates, it subjects 1 and 2 for “their own good.” It the seat of the kings of the earth, for the 3rd lamp is the highest point one can reach with the carnal mind. Organized violence, such as war (rather than the anarchy of sick 1ness, though, either way, neither 1 nor 3 likes being told what to do by others.). This one likes people to work for just enough to eat for the day (like the orders given to the black horse). It is the king at the top of a pyramid, leading the masses below as easily as a barking dog. Fear! Fear! Fear!
3 is primarily a masculine energy, and when such masculinity is the rule of law, you get 3 strictly-masculine faces on the trinity. This is the spiritual homosexuality that causes the downfall of the carnal world. Pergamos, when ill, is the man-only club. All feminine energy is put below (though it comes from above). “The stock market is the pinnacle of american freedom” or “property rights (i.e. control) is the epitome of freedom” are the mantras. Greed manifests when 3ness is broken and/or alone. 3ness alone is the most easily offended and frightened, it seems. Control control control control….or eeek!
But a healthy 3ness is represented by the family. Father (1ness), mother (2ness) and offspring (neutral 3ness, which leads back to father). It is epitomized by a balanced and easy system of control, not just control for desperate control’s sake. The Shire, of Tolkien’s work reminds me of a healthy 3ness. Industrious, but in more in harmony with 1-2 and 4-7. A good judge (like Solomon) really knows what to do when a 2 is wrestling over a 1. The eye at the top of a pyramid represents this well. A good, fair economy for all. Peace is the 3rd fruit. If we seek peace as the controller, we manifest an honest faith.
Keep peace when there is peace.
Make peace when there is war.
The Prince of Peace says so.
Do this, and you’ll have your faith.
The terrified will not, cannot, understand this.
All they can see is the tick-tock of the pendulum (which is the eye of 3ness).
4)
to be trapped in 4ness is to be trapped in the cycles of birth and death. Those who see only this cycle will mourn and weep and cry for the circular nature of life. They see injustice well, though lack the solutions. The left versus the right is epitomized by the struggle between 3ness versus 4ness. I would say they are both blind, but they actually see their own worldview quite well (though the fish does not know it is wet). 4ness alone is blindly liberal in their sacrifices, though it does little good alone. They may even foolishly say “everything is equal, and no view is better than any other view, because we are all trapped in the same cycles.” The green flatland.
4ness is primarily a feminine force, and is represented by the arts which express the darknesses of life (quite vividly at times, which, of course, shocks the fundamental 3s and pleasure-seeking 2s, who are mostly blind and/or frightened to the mortal realities which 4 sees so well). But when 4 is alone, it sees only the grim reaper, and often spends its time in ashes with broken shards of clay, lamenting for themselves, mostly (David spent some time here, so did Job – we all do). “Woe is me,” is the mantra of a broken 4. Watches the wheels go round and round and does little but b!tch.
But a healthy fourness sees death as the crossroads, not the enemy. It is comfortable with inevitability. It sees the nature of the cycle, and so rejoices at the coming dawn. “Reincarnation” and “astrology” are two subjects closely associated with this, and actually help propel us beyond the fire of it. The clock and the cycles of rebirth and the shape of the cross represent this CROSSroads between 1 and 7.
Our 4ness is fulfilled and the pale horse overcome when we understand the nature of eternal life, and that we begin life in a cycle of carnal nature (thus, re-in-carnation). Death is the last enemy that must be destroyed to move beyond the cycle of 1234123412341234, as represented by Ezekial’s vision and the four beasts, etc… Though, this cycle is often seen more like 123212321232123 to the mind stuck in threeness. Or 121212121212121212 to the mind stuck in 2ness. Or 1111 to the mind stuck in 1ness.
4 is the flaming sword that keeps us from eden. It is the four corners of the altar. The four givens. The four inevitables. It is the point between heaven and earth (earth being represented by the lower 3, heaven being represented by the upper 3). It is “the yoga.” It is the divine yoke. Rightfully so, it leads us back to 1 (pain and need) if we do not eat the fruit of longsuffering (which is to actually seek and fulfill pain). Gifts of healing are all about timing. Knowing when and where to plant the seed. Understanding the nature of fate and how very few (if any) choices we have in life are dominant themes in the carnal cycle of the material world. To be able to comprehend and act upon fate and our “lucky stars” (4th day of Genesis, remember?) is to see how small we are in the earth (1 thru 3).
4 is where heaven and earth “get it on” and conceive offspring. Michael (3) and the dragon (5) spin round and round this centerpoint. It is the great “hinge” or axle. The point of conception. There is much healing in this, which is why gifts of healing are the manifestation of eating the fruit of longsuffering. To fulfill this fourth lamp is to “escape” the carnal cycles, which is not an escape, but an acceptance of all that is, which renders us unmoved by the great ping-pong ball machine of life. This is an “escape” without ever really leaving anything (which is the only escape there really is).
From here on “out” (5-7) things become more difficult to explain well. And by this, I mean, enter at your own risk. If you’ll notice, that there is woe associated with the 5th and latter spirits. This is because the heavenly realm is NOT bliss. It is not free of pain. It is not free of trouble. Those who flee such things and seek only 1,2,3 or 4 will hide in caves of dogma, or howl even louder at the thought.
Thus, hell is found in heaven, like a lake of fire. But those who can deal with this, will find a baptism of fire. For you, the sun moon and stars will change (for they are not what they seem). For you, the walls that hide the great mysteries of God will come crashing down, (thus, Babylon is really a wonderful place to feast once the “walls” come down.).
In the end, Christ prefers neither heaven nor hell. Alone and/or unfulfilled, each spiritual plane is a place of hell and torment. If we want to “serve God,” we should be able to dwell in each with courage and fearlessness. Touching lepers, ya know? Preferring neither heaven nor hell, willing to enter the deepest of deeps for the sake of all.
Here is where our divine black and white world begins to obliterate into a radiant spectrum of light. The complexity increases a bit.
5)
to be trapped in fiveness is to be trapped in a paranormal experience. Or, when a person learns some metaphysical trick and gets addicted to it. If the “knees are weak” (1 thru 4 are unhealthy and unprepared), this person may get greedy and use their one little trick to control, or seek pleasure, or serve just themselves, or even try to bitterly fulfill the cycle of fourness. This is sorcery. This is witchcraft. And scientists and businessmen and Christians and Buddhists and Islamics and Jews practice sorcery. If 2 is cultic, and 3 is the king of the cult, 5 is OCcultic. If 3 is physics, 5 is metaphysics.
Oddly enough, this realm of 5ness is also the rational mind. 5 is the randomizer. The theorist (3) at work (5). It is the great experimental mind. 3ness is heir to 5ness’s experiments. Evolution reaches out and tries something new, always. 5 is what moves the cutting edge along. It is bold and naked and willing to scrap everything mortal for spiritual experience. Thus, the serpent, the dragon, the pentagram. Willing and able to get those mortal kids in eden to die so they could spiritually evolve. Nice trick.
And so when someone whose lower self is not healthy tries to dabble in sorcery/paranormal (like VPW kinda did), they get bit and poisoned. Because they are messing with higher spiritual realities while still stuck in the cycle of the 4 creatures/horses. Agony, ecstasy, control and fear subvert the ability to minister.
A culture that will experiment on its own people (like the drug industry, or FDA, or many other such R&D tycoons) epitomizes the 5ness alone. Cruel animal experiments are probably the bottom of the bucket (considering the 5th day’s association with animals). 5ness alone, especially without compassion (from 4) is a cold nasty creature. “Humans are worth more than animals,” they might say.
The dark side of communism and/or socialism reminds me of fallen 5ness. An experiment in uber-rationale society (to the point of certain kinds of oblivion.) Like I said, its always Michael (3ness, like blindly patriotic USA) and the dragon (5ness) fighting over the girl’s egg (4ness).
But a healthy 5ness experiments with compassion, first. To the depth and degree you practice and experiment random acts of kindness (especially among strangers and enemies), the 5 gift ministries will blossom like fireworks. Workings of miracles will abound. Strange and sudden results will blow your mind. Because your 4ness is healthy, most of all.
A healthy 1 strengthens 2.
A healthy 2 strengthens 3.
A healthy 3 strengthens 4.
Etc…
We practice a diversity of gentleness (5th fruit), we are flexible and easy and adaptable to the vast diversity of miraculous encounters in life. We can literally feel subtle shifts in the air, in people’s eyes, in a rock or a tree. Especially if 4 is healthy (that thread I posted on the sending/receiving technique is like a wind on your embers in this matter. Take it to the street, and you’ll see what I mean). A five-pointed star represents 5ness better than anything I know. It’s a solid square of a 4 with a wild thing of a point to keep you on your toes.
6)
To be trapped in 6ness in to be trapped in your own subtle mental realm. It what happens if our 3rd eye opens, and so we can see spiritual things (whereas 5ness has more of a feeling nature), but if 6 is alone, we are haunted by our own visions. There is little understanding of them. If our ability to rationally explore them (via healthy 5ness) is diminished, we may believe our own vision (though we do not understand it).
Perhaps VP and LCM saw a few cool and groovy things, but if their compassion and rational thinking was diminished, they would worship their own visualizations like an idol. An unhealthy 6 is why men fall on their face when they have angelic encounters. False prophets are often those who see something once and spend the rest of their lives promoting it. They peak or spike in spiritual experience and vision, but never plateau (due to lack of stability, which is gained by a healthy 4ness). The vision or dream is quite real, but they “blow it” by applying it wrongly all their lives.
An example of a society addicted on 6ness is a religion that gets legit visions and does not understand them. Perhaps they lack the heart to do anything healing with them. Or they lack the experience to see how it applies. They might even hole up somewhere and stimulate their 3rd eye and just watch this spiritual TV all the time, and think they are actually in the show. Happens all over the world, in every age.
But a healthy 6ness (which means it is in harmony with and strengthened by other spiritual planes) sees things and does not “wig out.” A prophet sees the big clock and little clock (as opposed to the middle clock of the carnal mind). A prophet sees the trends and bigger cycles. A prophet sees the patterns and trajectories that cause miracles (which is why 5ness strengthens 6ness – cuz if you have a habit/plateau of stimulating miraculous encounter via gentleness, you will have enough subtle experiences to see to predict the patterns in the nature of creation in the first place.).
To see such spiritual things, is not to see a static reality, but to see the animate and reactionary nature of things. To see how things can always work out for goodness (6th fruit), regardless how they look now. To see trajectories. Like a spiritual weatherman. Predictions, but not guarantees. Predictions based on “if things continue…”. To truly see why everything happens for a reason. It just math, mostly.
And it is also to see ahead to 7, the finish line. A star of David represents 6ness better than anything I know. 6 lines used to make 2 overlapping triangles (masc. and fem), which makes a 7th space.
7)
to be trapped in 7ness is to have a messiah complex. You see the full spectrum of being within yourself, and you think you are the only one who has it. Or, when one has climbed this high, they think this is where you are supposed to stop, like you have attained the pinnacle. You see all and are all. But just because you can finally say, “I AM,” does not mean you have done anything at all. Because to reach this point IS to be born again. Its now that the great work begins. Everything up til now was gestation and development in the womb of the holy spirit.
In other words, if you reach this stage and think you have “finally arrived,” you are right, but all you have really arrived at is the tit. So smile baby, you have nothing to brag about. This is where a new Jerusalem comes down from heaven. But momma dove still has a lot of comforting to do.
This is a healthy 7ness. There is not much to it. The spectrum is always faithful, in light and sound. It is the alpha to omega of our Christness. When the 7th seal breaks in our lives, there is just a period of silence as we admire it. Nothing more, nothing less. And so its time to grow up.
The Caduceus is a good representation of 7ness and Christ.
The brass serpent lifted in the wilderness for healing and wholeness.
8)
to be trapped in 8ness is to be stuck in the great conversation. Talking talking talking about things, just for the sake of talking.
But, if we are healthy in sevenness, we actually have something to talk about. We can communicate of and along the spiritual planes, regardless of race, religion, creed, etc. This requires a meekness, or a flexibility to whomever we are talking to. I do it in sales all the time. We change ourselves for the sake of other, and we can talk, because the other may not always do it, or know to do it. Pentecost reminds me of this. What was new was that the apostles could finally do it (the spirit has been there from the beginning). And it took “some guy” to demonstrate the full spectrum to get them talking (after a 9-day mediation period, of course).
9)
to be trapped in 9 is to be trapped in integration and interpretation of all these things. To systematically systematize everything. Can be very confusing. A one-way mouthpiece, so to speak. Constant interpreting of every sign, miracle, wonder and healing that comes along. This means that which means this which means that, on and on and on.
But if we are healthy in 9ness, we know when and where to interpret. Which is why temperance is the 9th fruit. If we can truly interpret the spiritual planes of life, we must control ourselves, discipline ourselves. Consider carefully all things.
I can only hope this thread has done this (interpreting tongues) for some of you. It was hard work. I am holding back as much as I can. I intentionally try NOT to get too concrete, and this is to keep what I write from being taken too seriously. Sounds funny, but it is important to me. In other words, I am not gonna try to make bread from stone. I purposely keep it all a bit fluid (though I am working on a more synthesized version – see #10.)
10)
to be trapped in 10ness is to be trapped in some penultimate set of laws. Its like worshipping the works of our hands (5+5). All we can see is 10 10 10 10 10, with little understanding of why there are 10 in the first place (because it’s the easiest number for us dopes to remember, I suppose).
But a healthy 10ness is the ability to publish spiritual truths in lasting concretion. To provide a simple neutral framework that can be remembered by any child, simply because he can count them off on his fingers (like two tablets of stone). Kids never forget that thing that thrilled them, even into their elder years.
Heerz a quick summation.
I’ll quickly pick one word each.
1) Our need
2) Our want
3) Our control
4) Our union
5) Our diversity
6) Our calculator
7) Our true name
8) Our conversations
9) Our explanations
10) Our frameworking
Of course, numbers go on forever, and there are important numbers like 12 and 24 (which are just extensions of 3ness and 4ness), but I already did enough damage here, it seems.
Anyway,
Thanks all, for just being.
I’m gonna go shave my head or something.
:D-->
Peace,
Todd
p.s.
I just realized I never mentioned 0.
What an idiot. Maybe some other day.
Cuz zero is huge (or anti-huge).
;)-->
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ckeer
Hi Todd- I read through your post quickly- I'll come back and look at it again. Don't have any questions about it yet. One thing it reminds me of is the idea of the ennegram and personality types.
Are you familiar with it? In your context of unfolding growth, I think it would relate to how people are "stuck" because their personalities are "protecting" them from a basic fear.
The terminology is similar though and I know you are using it differently. I can't ask any inspiring questions until I have separated your terminology from ennegram terminology.
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