I've never been accused of being interestingly wrong before.
:D-->
OK. You seem to believe the traditional doctrines of The Revelation.
And you also seem to be looking for the usual brawl for proving rightness.
But are you really prepared to debate all this stuff?
Cuz I'm not.
Although, I am quite familiar with the greek words, word studies, figures of speech, orientalisms, the history and culture of the seven cities, etc...
(and a bunch of other related and non-related stuff that you might not be willing to accept as "proof" anyway).
But I'd rather just save us both a lot of trouble and let you "win."
;)-->
btw - I believe sin carries its own judgement with it. God is not mocked. There is no escape from his judgement except via atonement. Its eye for an eye, right? Tooth for a tooth.
[This message was edited by sirguessalot on February 20, 2004 at 19:15.]
Ok, still sittin here wunderin where the heck to go next.
Hows this…
So as to distinguish what I write here from that of TWI and ex-way folks who claim to possess the safest and most sure route to Heaven, or the afterlife, or God’s presence, or Jesus/Jehovah's secret club, or whatever...I want everyone to know that I do NOT consider what I write to be safer than anything, or more sure. In fact, some of it seems outright dangerous and risky to believe, and not really necessary at all for living a peaceful life. So venture at your own risk, and please don’t take what I write more seriously than I take it myself. Toys are toys.
But even so, I still try to avoid writing about the freakier stuff in public. I try to stick to the language of us ex-way. And I’ll try to explain why somewhere (especially if I ever get to writing a little about the 5th trumpet).
Most of all, I just wanna share some deep stuff with people I care about. Stuff that has helped me a lot. And I honestly can’t think of a better place to write about it.
So…I hope you continue to enjoy.
:)-->
A few thoughts on tongues and Pentecost…
VPW taught that what happened with tongues on Pentecost was special phenomenon. The “miracle” of Pentecost, I think he called it, was how all the people of different backgrounds understood what the apostles were saying. The apostles just spoke without thinking about the words (like they were taught in PFAL)--and viola...they magically spoke the wonderful works of God in Libyan, without even knowing what they were saying in Libyan!?!?!
huh?
But I think those “phenomenal” results are standard for tongues.
And so much more than the way PFAL explained them.
The people of Pentecost were well-travelled and almost all spoke at least some form of the “english” of the day, including the apostles and disciples. And the apostles and disciples were NOT strictly Mosaic Jews. And their “old testament” reading material was NOT strictly canonized it is in the Bible. They were more like Jewish pagans. Like Jesus, they were Galilean “country folk” who hung out with (and so learned the beliefs of) philosophers, Egyptians, magi-types, mystics, gnostics, essenes, foreigners, etc…
All in all, I think the characters of the opening chapters of Acts were more well-equipped linguistically and intellectually than we often give them credit for. Not a bunch of geniuses, but not a bunch of cavemen either.
Tongues of Pentecost - Not a magical universal dialect translator, although words of many dialects were involved.
Languages are born from symbolisms, which are born from religious beliefs.
Our religion determines the shape of our language.
The meanings within and around our words.
The character of our mythos determines the symbology of our words.
To speak in tongues, is to speak via this symbology.
To speak via form, which is the communication of light.
It is making music with meanings.
Like the way Roy can whip up a list of numerical significances and associate it via words.
But we know what Corinthians 14 says about that, right?
People will think yer crazy.
And speaking in tongues of angels without a discerning of the 7 spirits of God will make even less sense, I suppose.
Maybe like putting the cart before the horse?
How can we interpret the tongues of angels if we do not discern the distinct spirits of the churches?
This is the ability of a spirit-willed soul.
The soul of a person who has lit the lamps of understanding.
Cloven tongues, like as of fire.
To see the universal nature of God’s Christ is to be able to speak of it.
To see and communicate via the spiritual forces that have been written on, yeah – have written--every man’s conscious since the beginning. For as Paul said, of one blood has every man come.
To see how God has spoken to all races the world over, is to unlock the mysteries of Babylon. To not see the connections, is for Babylon to have fallen. And so tongues are confused.
To speak the language of the heart and soul, is to speak in tongues.
So yes, I suppose it is a “magical” thing.
Out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaketh.
And also, if we listen, we can follow a person’s words straight to their heart.
Like a mouse following a trail of crumbs.
On Pentecost, the apostles were speaking in mysteries/riddles that people of other religious backgrounds could understand. Because the figurative language which they used transcended the current Jewish paradigms. It drew on the truths that live in the hearts of all races of men. Even though Peter’s epiphany of the spiritual non-jew was years off, the non-jew was already able to recognize the universal form of what Christ knew and demonstrated.
What a sight, for a gang of Galilean jews to be walking among the religious hanger-outers of the time (from all over the world) speaking things of Christ that rang true with their own religions. A lot like Paul on Mars Hill.
But they did not stop there. Even after the tongues really wowed them, Peter offered an interpretation of tongues. He offered his best explanation of what had just happened.
:)-->
When we speak in tongues well, it is meant to be understood by those who are listening. At least the form of it.
But misunderstood by those who do prefer to mock.
Tongues are like playing music with shapes and concepts of wisdom.
Sometimes, making parallels and lists of word associations.
Like singing psalms and spiritual songs in your heart.
Making assocations via the 7 angels of the 7 churches.
I bet most of it was oral and spontaneous.
Some of it was like doodling in the sand.
Not meant to be permanent, though some have been recorded as psalms and proverbs.
Like a Native American or Tibetan sand-painting.
Ephemeral wisdom...not afraid of fire and smoke.
Yes...poetry, at times. Of thought. of will. of word. of deed.
When we speak of the churches and angels, we are also thinking of them, most powerfully and directly via imagery.
Yes, our imagination (unless our "imagination is darkened.")
Thought is most directly via light.
And when we think of the tongues of fire, these are like the angels climbing up and down Jacob’s ladder.
And we can learn to lengthen and trim the wicks of the lamps---within.
And the smoke of them rises to God.
The divine forces of creation CANNOT NOT honor these 7 planes of prayer.
Meditation on the spirits of God is also speaking in tongues, to ourself.
And the wisdom from this is often more than words can express.
Also, giving a good foot massage is another powerful example of speaking in tongues of angels to the inner man.
:)-->
Ok, its early/late.
Someday I’d like to write about the specifics of each lamp and star.
And how breaking of the seven seals are like the stages of conception thru gestation thru birth of our mind of Christ. In other words, showing how the development of eternal life may be a lot longer than our itsy bitsy physical lifespans.
[This message was edited by sirguessalot on February 23, 2004 at 7:46.]
Just some random thoughts - hopefully not a derail.....
No, this thread is not a safe place at all. But it's where I want to be. I realized that I have been in a safe place. I realized I've spent my life trying to build my faith on someone else's experiences, someone else's doctrine, someone else's interpretation. It didn't work. And once I realized that, my faith collapsed like a house of cards.
If I'm going to have any faith at all, it has to be my faith.
So, to borrow TGN's analogy, I'm pulling apart all those Lego blocks, and starting over......
Just a pile of Legos sitting in front of me. Okay, Lord, what's it supposed to look like?
I even picked up a Bible the other day, because I was reminded of something. Pilate asked Jesus, "What is truth?" There is no reply recorded. All we have is Jesus' statement before the question. "Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice."
An interpretation of tongues?
Sirguess,
Post on! Your writings intrigue me. I may even pick up that Bible again someday to look at Rev. To see what I can find. :)-->
quote: And also, if we listen, we can follow a person’s words straight to their heart.
Like a mouse following a trail of crumbs.
I love that phrase!
Sort of like saying... "Keep GOING! Don't stop to stare at the "words" - go to the heart because that is where the reality is."
Reminds me of when Jesus told Peter to "Come." (Not a whole heck of a lot of explanation or instruction for someone who is about to step out of a boat onto a stormy sea!)
In former Way days, we explained things to death. And I mean that rather literally. Jesus said "come". If Peter would have been an Advanced Class Grad, he would have said - "WOAH! Wait a Min., STOP RIGHT THERE! Check your 16 keys to walking by the spirit. Analyze this thing. Don't be so quick to act… it COULD be a devil spirit”. So we were taught how to kill the “spiritual”. What Jesus spoke to Peter was…. Momentary Manna. So much Momentary Manna gets Shot in the Heart by the Head of man.
When Peter started to analyze the whole thing – that is what gave rise to his sinking. Add a little doubt to the moment and ... blub, blub, blub. (Of course his buddies never got out of the boat at all… supposing they had seen “a spirit.” A brief glimpse was the only thing that they ALL received. Peter at least went with that… and then the next thing he heard – so he went... etc.)
I dare say that for many of us, a simple bit of instruction from the Lord like, “Come” would require some other validation. Why do I say that? Because 95% of the Christian world is still wrapped up in “Was that the Lord, or just my own head?” “Gee, I had better pray about this for a few weeks and talk this over with my pastor and friends so that I don’t get deceived.”
Tragically, the deception has already occurred in many of those cases. Frozen by the “doubt of origin”, people fail to act... and if and when they finally do act – they find the bread has often spoiled. Then the NEXT time they hear the tongue of the spirit - they don’t even bother to respond. Their ability to respond (response/ability) has been diminished by trying to play it "safe".
How do we break this spiral? Not sure, to be honest. But I think we should start following those things He puts in our hearts – doubting nothing… and not pretending to know more than what we “have” at that moment, either. If we start to sink… He will pick us up. But if we never get out of the boat – we and the world around us loose a great moment.
A few quick questions, Def, since you mentioned it,
but not to get into a long wrestling match.
But to illustrate another point.
The wrestling match that matters is within, anyway, IMO.
Which is where our real enemy hunts for us.
Not in a forum.
The reason I ask is because I can assume that you are setting your view of yourself in contrast to your view of me. Stepping across the room and drawing a line between us?
You have found and focus on God. Whereas, I do not. I have a beam in my eye.
Right?
So...
How can you see Christ in you,
if you avoid looking in the mirror?
And how does one focus on God if one will not grow their wisdom of the inner man
(who was made in the form of God from the beginning)?
But all it takes is a spec to blind an eye.
And I don't think you have a beam.
So I'll accept your answers, def, whatever they are.
And I hope you don't think my questions are not as serious as they seem.
To me, they aren't.
There has got to be more important things than what we say to each other here, right?
And yes. I suppose you could say that "IT" is all about God.
Life, that is. Which is within God, moving and being.
....
Here is a quick something...
Often, when we think of lists, and linking chains of understanding, we perceive order like:
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
But this is the order a seed is planted.
The direction in which roots grow downward into the earth.
Or like how we write and read dead words on dead paper.
Just like Paul wrote.
But if we want to grow in understanding, maybe it might help to "see" things in the upward order of growth. Like a living tree reaching for the sun.
Like seeing ourselves in a reflection on the beach.
7 - Discerning of Spirits
6 - Prophecy
5 - The Workings of Miracles
4 - Gifts of Healing
3 - Faith
2 - Word of knowledge
1 - Word of Wisdom
"Which way is up?" seems like a basic word of wisdom, if we want to grow.
This is a reward of Ephesus...
Like a tree of life.
To know which was is up, and to know which way is down.
And so, to know where the midst of life is, as it grows upward and outward.
Kinda hard to grow at all, without having that one first, IMO.
Well... ya done tripped over one of 'ma hot buttons, there SirGuess.
So Here Goes:
Present Evil/ Current Darkness/ Acceptable Behaviour/
They are all linked... to Christ and who he is to us NOW.
Before I start... Just think of me like the Energizer Bunny.. just BEATIN' that Christ-Drum. There are about 40 pages of "stuff" I could post on these topics... but can't.
Evil is not the enemy. I have met the enemy, and we are the ones keeping it alive.
Evil, like beauty, is in the eyes of the beholder.
Now before anyone freaks out – kindly read on… then you can freak out :)-->
We don’t have to look very far to recognize this is a reality on the basis of human behavior.
For example: The twisted motives which inspired certain people to fly stolen airplanes full of terrified passengers into buildings full of innocent people and incinerate as many as they could – are quickly labeled “evil” in the eyes of the citizens in this country. Yet these very same acts of terror inspire others in the world to look at those responsible as if they were wonderful, brave, heroes and beautiful martyrs.
Why? ‘Tis the nature of the beast. And I think, we are feeding it and keeping it alive. If we kill the THING that made these guys do this.. we will be killing a whole lot of Christians, too... and Jews... and... and...
We may want to reconsider just what in the blue blazes happened and "attack the war on terror" with a whole new "weapon" - light.
Perceptions of Evil and Beauty are all about the perception, never the reality.
The reality is the “stuff” that is behind what is perceived… like an onion, several spiritual layers deep.
Many Americans say the hijackers were deceived by the lies imbedded in their religion - that they would go straight to heaven and be with lots of wonderful virgins.
On the whole, this version of their expected end is considered to be faulty by all Christians here. Yeah, yeah, yeah... But Why do most people think like that? HMMM?
Because our own works (making people behave like Christians) are "acceptable" to God and their works (killing people) are not acceptable.
Do your own Cain and Able tie-in here.
So it all comes down to works, then doesn’t it. By our works we are judged. So we judge others by theri works... This is a fundamental “truth” – or is it???
This should be of no surprise to anyone. Lucifer became full of pride, about his beauty, his eyes became puffed-shut with self importance and he deceived himself. He thought he WAS the light. (Again, a perception VS reality problem).
He thought he could be a creator; his light could sustain not only himself, but an entire universe. He convinced others to follow him. He deceived them as well. But with what did he deceive them – with his darkness????
Nope. With his light! His “Good” works!
His pride may be considered to be full of darkness - but it could not extinguish his light. So he used the light and his darkness together. (Oversimplified, I know… but just try and hang with me a bit longer) :)-->
There are many different lights in the world.
In Lucifer’s case, we can see that God’s light – if mixed with “self-light” or pride (good works, beauty, strength and honor) (which form the bricks and mortar of deception) - it can grow that sphere of deception in influence.
This “growth of deception” increases the power of darkness.
Gee.. do we REALLY want to push this works-version of Christianity Over the World?? :(-->
Mere angels became an extension of his own darkness – So how did Lucifer enlist so many? He deceived them with light and he hid his darkness under a cloak of self-light.
Consider this in terms of our great cry of “We know we are Christians because WE do… such and such”. This is not the light of Christ... this is the same self-light of deception.
In vain the fowler’s net is spread in view of the bird’s eye.
Without darkness, all deceptions would be ended. Total absence of light does not “create” darkness – NOTHING lives without light.
Darkness collapses under its own weight, so as to speak.
But in the hearts of the captives, darkness can be driven out.
Deception is one of the first vestiges that must be rooted out by THE light.
One of the greatest deceptions of all time is that we are justified and acceptable to God by our works. This deception alone caused the first born son of Adam to become a murder of his brother.
The “thing” that inspired Cain in the Garden, is with us today. It lives not only in the terrorists; it lives in many Christians, as well. And we are the ones giving it life and honor... we honor this evil with our very works! Ironic... yes?
Well, if God ALREADY reconciled the world unto Himself by Jesus Christ… then this is the reality. There remains no work to do to be acceptable to God. None. Zippo. Notta.
Our “light” is not in and of ourselves… (like Lucifer thought), and our acceptance does not come because of our works… (like Cain thought).
Christ is the light of life – not works. He is the light of the world. This is reality.
The Christians say “YOU have to believe it… and then YOU have to act like it, or else… you GO TO HELL. Repent!!” For them, it is a perception VS reality problem.
In God’s eyes, evil looks a little different… ya know…?
Nothing is as it appears. The physical world is but an appearance... it is not the stuff that is behind it.
So evil, light, behavior... all of it... is not as it appears. These parallel present "worlds" are intertwined. 9-11 was just another Brother killing his brother...
Christ is the light that we need to see. People should quit blaming the unbelievers... or the devil... they whould look within... and see if the light of their life is the light of Christ.
...Ok... My batteries have run down... I will stop now :D-->
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sirguessalot
Thanks for reading, JF-C from TN!
You've got me pondering where to go next.
And thanks, as well, Danny.
I'm sure an invisible man like yourself isn't easily fascinated.
;)-->
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def59
guess
Your views on Revelations are interesting, I will give you that. I think you are wrong, but interestinly so, not as boring as smikeol.
When you talk of angels, remember the word is translated as messenger, so it could be referring to pastors as well.
And the seals and bowls are acts of God's judgment on a wicked planet. Or do you think we have an indulget God who just winks at our sins?
Revelations starts off listing seven churches, which really existed and each fought their own battles, some compromised the truth for the flesh.
How tongues gets in there is a mystery to me.
The focus is on the believer and his call to stand against sin and persecution.
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sirguessalot
Hi, def59.
Thanks for the feedback.
I've never been accused of being interestingly wrong before.
OK. You seem to believe the traditional doctrines of The Revelation.
And you also seem to be looking for the usual brawl for proving rightness.
But are you really prepared to debate all this stuff?
Cuz I'm not.
Although, I am quite familiar with the greek words, word studies, figures of speech, orientalisms, the history and culture of the seven cities, etc...
(and a bunch of other related and non-related stuff that you might not be willing to accept as "proof" anyway).
But I'd rather just save us both a lot of trouble and let you "win."
btw - I believe sin carries its own judgement with it. God is not mocked. There is no escape from his judgement except via atonement. Its eye for an eye, right? Tooth for a tooth.
[This message was edited by sirguessalot on February 20, 2004 at 19:15.]
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excathedra
def, are there any other threads you like ? because i really want this one to go on.....
please
?
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year2027
Hi All
Since Excarthedra wants this post to live and I do too I add some notes I have on Revelations
Since Revelations was talk about
Now these are just notes and no way done but as we talk about things I learn more how to complete things more perfect
But right now there may be parts I have not right
Now the parts my mind is still working out is each crown the how to receive
Now I have notes put this will give them something to thing about
With love and peace Roy
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sirguessalot
Nice stuff, Roy.
Doesn’t hurt to test your faith, does it?
Bounce it off the wall a bit?
See what breaks and what won’t?
And thanks again, E.
I do, too.
Ok, still sittin here wunderin where the heck to go next.
Hows this…
So as to distinguish what I write here from that of TWI and ex-way folks who claim to possess the safest and most sure route to Heaven, or the afterlife, or God’s presence, or Jesus/Jehovah's secret club, or whatever...I want everyone to know that I do NOT consider what I write to be safer than anything, or more sure. In fact, some of it seems outright dangerous and risky to believe, and not really necessary at all for living a peaceful life. So venture at your own risk, and please don’t take what I write more seriously than I take it myself. Toys are toys.
But even so, I still try to avoid writing about the freakier stuff in public. I try to stick to the language of us ex-way. And I’ll try to explain why somewhere (especially if I ever get to writing a little about the 5th trumpet).
Most of all, I just wanna share some deep stuff with people I care about. Stuff that has helped me a lot. And I honestly can’t think of a better place to write about it.
So…I hope you continue to enjoy.
A few thoughts on tongues and Pentecost…
VPW taught that what happened with tongues on Pentecost was special phenomenon. The “miracle” of Pentecost, I think he called it, was how all the people of different backgrounds understood what the apostles were saying. The apostles just spoke without thinking about the words (like they were taught in PFAL)--and viola...they magically spoke the wonderful works of God in Libyan, without even knowing what they were saying in Libyan!?!?!
huh?
But I think those “phenomenal” results are standard for tongues.
And so much more than the way PFAL explained them.
The people of Pentecost were well-travelled and almost all spoke at least some form of the “english” of the day, including the apostles and disciples. And the apostles and disciples were NOT strictly Mosaic Jews. And their “old testament” reading material was NOT strictly canonized it is in the Bible. They were more like Jewish pagans. Like Jesus, they were Galilean “country folk” who hung out with (and so learned the beliefs of) philosophers, Egyptians, magi-types, mystics, gnostics, essenes, foreigners, etc…
All in all, I think the characters of the opening chapters of Acts were more well-equipped linguistically and intellectually than we often give them credit for. Not a bunch of geniuses, but not a bunch of cavemen either.
Tongues of Pentecost - Not a magical universal dialect translator, although words of many dialects were involved.
Languages are born from symbolisms, which are born from religious beliefs.
Our religion determines the shape of our language.
The meanings within and around our words.
The character of our mythos determines the symbology of our words.
To speak in tongues, is to speak via this symbology.
To speak via form, which is the communication of light.
It is making music with meanings.
Like the way Roy can whip up a list of numerical significances and associate it via words.
But we know what Corinthians 14 says about that, right?
People will think yer crazy.
And speaking in tongues of angels without a discerning of the 7 spirits of God will make even less sense, I suppose.
Maybe like putting the cart before the horse?
How can we interpret the tongues of angels if we do not discern the distinct spirits of the churches?
This is the ability of a spirit-willed soul.
The soul of a person who has lit the lamps of understanding.
Cloven tongues, like as of fire.
To see the universal nature of God’s Christ is to be able to speak of it.
To see and communicate via the spiritual forces that have been written on, yeah – have written--every man’s conscious since the beginning. For as Paul said, of one blood has every man come.
To see how God has spoken to all races the world over, is to unlock the mysteries of Babylon. To not see the connections, is for Babylon to have fallen. And so tongues are confused.
To speak the language of the heart and soul, is to speak in tongues.
So yes, I suppose it is a “magical” thing.
Out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaketh.
And also, if we listen, we can follow a person’s words straight to their heart.
Like a mouse following a trail of crumbs.
On Pentecost, the apostles were speaking in mysteries/riddles that people of other religious backgrounds could understand. Because the figurative language which they used transcended the current Jewish paradigms. It drew on the truths that live in the hearts of all races of men. Even though Peter’s epiphany of the spiritual non-jew was years off, the non-jew was already able to recognize the universal form of what Christ knew and demonstrated.
What a sight, for a gang of Galilean jews to be walking among the religious hanger-outers of the time (from all over the world) speaking things of Christ that rang true with their own religions. A lot like Paul on Mars Hill.
But they did not stop there. Even after the tongues really wowed them, Peter offered an interpretation of tongues. He offered his best explanation of what had just happened.
When we speak in tongues well, it is meant to be understood by those who are listening. At least the form of it.
But misunderstood by those who do prefer to mock.
Tongues are like playing music with shapes and concepts of wisdom.
Sometimes, making parallels and lists of word associations.
Like singing psalms and spiritual songs in your heart.
Making assocations via the 7 angels of the 7 churches.
I bet most of it was oral and spontaneous.
Some of it was like doodling in the sand.
Not meant to be permanent, though some have been recorded as psalms and proverbs.
Like a Native American or Tibetan sand-painting.
Ephemeral wisdom...not afraid of fire and smoke.
Yes...poetry, at times. Of thought. of will. of word. of deed.
When we speak of the churches and angels, we are also thinking of them, most powerfully and directly via imagery.
Yes, our imagination (unless our "imagination is darkened.")
Thought is most directly via light.
And when we think of the tongues of fire, these are like the angels climbing up and down Jacob’s ladder.
And we can learn to lengthen and trim the wicks of the lamps---within.
And the smoke of them rises to God.
The divine forces of creation CANNOT NOT honor these 7 planes of prayer.
Meditation on the spirits of God is also speaking in tongues, to ourself.
And the wisdom from this is often more than words can express.
Also, giving a good foot massage is another powerful example of speaking in tongues of angels to the inner man.
Ok, its early/late.
Someday I’d like to write about the specifics of each lamp and star.
And how breaking of the seven seals are like the stages of conception thru gestation thru birth of our mind of Christ. In other words, showing how the development of eternal life may be a lot longer than our itsy bitsy physical lifespans.
[This message was edited by sirguessalot on February 23, 2004 at 7:46.]
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Square Peg
Just some random thoughts - hopefully not a derail.....
No, this thread is not a safe place at all. But it's where I want to be. I realized that I have been in a safe place. I realized I've spent my life trying to build my faith on someone else's experiences, someone else's doctrine, someone else's interpretation. It didn't work. And once I realized that, my faith collapsed like a house of cards.
If I'm going to have any faith at all, it has to be my faith.
So, to borrow TGN's analogy, I'm pulling apart all those Lego blocks, and starting over......
Just a pile of Legos sitting in front of me. Okay, Lord, what's it supposed to look like?
I even picked up a Bible the other day, because I was reminded of something. Pilate asked Jesus, "What is truth?" There is no reply recorded. All we have is Jesus' statement before the question. "Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice."
An interpretation of tongues?
Sirguess,
Post on! Your writings intrigue me. I may even pick up that Bible again someday to look at Rev. To see what I can find.
:)-->
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def59
I am just throwing my views out there. If they stick with someone fine. If not, no hurt here. I would like to see all threads go on, OK?
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Too Gray Now
I love that phrase!
Sort of like saying... "Keep GOING! Don't stop to stare at the "words" - go to the heart because that is where the reality is."
Reminds me of when Jesus told Peter to "Come." (Not a whole heck of a lot of explanation or instruction for someone who is about to step out of a boat onto a stormy sea!)
In former Way days, we explained things to death. And I mean that rather literally. Jesus said "come". If Peter would have been an Advanced Class Grad, he would have said - "WOAH! Wait a Min., STOP RIGHT THERE! Check your 16 keys to walking by the spirit. Analyze this thing. Don't be so quick to act… it COULD be a devil spirit”. So we were taught how to kill the “spiritual”. What Jesus spoke to Peter was…. Momentary Manna. So much Momentary Manna gets Shot in the Heart by the Head of man.
When Peter started to analyze the whole thing – that is what gave rise to his sinking. Add a little doubt to the moment and ... blub, blub, blub. (Of course his buddies never got out of the boat at all… supposing they had seen “a spirit.” A brief glimpse was the only thing that they ALL received. Peter at least went with that… and then the next thing he heard – so he went... etc.)
I dare say that for many of us, a simple bit of instruction from the Lord like, “Come” would require some other validation. Why do I say that? Because 95% of the Christian world is still wrapped up in “Was that the Lord, or just my own head?” “Gee, I had better pray about this for a few weeks and talk this over with my pastor and friends so that I don’t get deceived.”
Tragically, the deception has already occurred in many of those cases. Frozen by the “doubt of origin”, people fail to act... and if and when they finally do act – they find the bread has often spoiled. Then the NEXT time they hear the tongue of the spirit - they don’t even bother to respond. Their ability to respond (response/ability) has been diminished by trying to play it "safe".
How do we break this spiral? Not sure, to be honest. But I think we should start following those things He puts in our hearts – doubting nothing… and not pretending to know more than what we “have” at that moment, either. If we start to sink… He will pick us up. But if we never get out of the boat – we and the world around us loose a great moment.
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jezusfreaky
''...stepping out on faith...''
Kinda like one of my favorite scenes from an Indiana Jones movie...you know, the one where he has to cross the ''invisible bridge''?
No safety nets...just believe...even with just a mustard seed sized amount of faith...He'll be there to catch ya!
;)-->
Yes, Todd...I'm growing in faith...especially lately!
:)--> 
;)-->
Thanks yous guys!
Peace and Love.
Love y'all,
-Colleen
GO VOLS!!
''...show a little faith, there's magic in the night, you ain't a beauty, but hey, you're alright, oh, and that's alright with me...''
-Bruce Springsteen
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year2027
Hi All
Too Gray Now I like that those words got me thinking
God by way of Jesus Christ has taught me things before and I believe some of them to be truth but could not teach them
But he allways taught me how to teach them more and more as I learn to listen
I still at times forget to listen but I am getting better each day
May God the Father, Holy Breath the Mother, and Jesus Christ the Brother give you love, grace, joy and peace
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sirguessalot
Thanks, def59.
Good to hear yer not hurt.
:)-->
Feel free to amuse yourself here.
We all just trying to figure out to become babes again, right?
Peace
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def59
Well, in my spiritual path right now, I am focusing on God, because after all, it is all about Him.
Too long I focused on me and wondered why I never "got it."
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sirguessalot
A few quick questions, Def, since you mentioned it,
but not to get into a long wrestling match.
But to illustrate another point.
The wrestling match that matters is within, anyway, IMO.
Which is where our real enemy hunts for us.
Not in a forum.
The reason I ask is because I can assume that you are setting your view of yourself in contrast to your view of me. Stepping across the room and drawing a line between us?
You have found and focus on God. Whereas, I do not. I have a beam in my eye.
Right?
So...
How can you see Christ in you,
if you avoid looking in the mirror?
And how does one focus on God if one will not grow their wisdom of the inner man
(who was made in the form of God from the beginning)?
But all it takes is a spec to blind an eye.
And I don't think you have a beam.
So I'll accept your answers, def, whatever they are.
And I hope you don't think my questions are not as serious as they seem.
To me, they aren't.
There has got to be more important things than what we say to each other here, right?
And yes. I suppose you could say that "IT" is all about God.
Life, that is. Which is within God, moving and being.
....
Here is a quick something...
Often, when we think of lists, and linking chains of understanding, we perceive order like:
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
But this is the order a seed is planted.
The direction in which roots grow downward into the earth.
Or like how we write and read dead words on dead paper.
Just like Paul wrote.
But if we want to grow in understanding, maybe it might help to "see" things in the upward order of growth. Like a living tree reaching for the sun.
Like seeing ourselves in a reflection on the beach.
7 - Discerning of Spirits
6 - Prophecy
5 - The Workings of Miracles
4 - Gifts of Healing
3 - Faith
2 - Word of knowledge
1 - Word of Wisdom
"Which way is up?" seems like a basic word of wisdom, if we want to grow.
This is a reward of Ephesus...
Like a tree of life.
To know which was is up, and to know which way is down.
And so, to know where the midst of life is, as it grows upward and outward.
Kinda hard to grow at all, without having that one first, IMO.
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sirguessalot
We read and write stuff around here about evil spirits and such.
And it figures. Cuz we’ve inherited quite a few heeby jeebies from you know who
(and the good folks who founded Salem).
So I’ve gotta ask – what makes a spirit of God evil?
When Ephesus eats without questioning, it is an evil spirit.
The wrath of this inflicts us with boils and sores.
Our health suffers. Cuz we eat garbage. And know not when to stop.
When Smyrna bows to false social pressures and addictions, it is an evil spirit.
The wrath of this inflicts us with enemies who we think are our friends.
We are lonely and cowardly, even while in the midst of a mob.
When Pergamos condemns and judges based on proofs and evidence, it is an evil spirit.
The wrath of this inflicts us with enemies who seek an eye for an eye.
Satan is in control, and is covered in blood and ever ready for war.
When Thyatira can see only harlots and is ignorant of death, it is an evil spirit.
The wrath of this inflicts us with unquenchable lust for what we cannot grasp.
We die before our birth.
If we are lost here, the other three are better left alone.
For to engage them first, is to invite a woe for each one.
The lower three are of earth.
The other three are of heaven.
Thyatira is the crossroads.
The yoke.
The union.
The flaming sword which turns every way.
The heartbeat of eternal life, which beats whether we like it or not.
The birth of the gryphon (to plug my sleeping thread)
:D-->
I pity those who would condemn an evil spirit without understanding which hell it came from.
Christ does not quench a smoking flaxen or a break a bruised reed.
And all 7 stars are in his hand.
Though the seat of Satan thrives on such things.
For he knows he is weak.
And he knows he is the carnal mind.
And he can rule over no other, except those who are below him.
He shows no mercy, even up until his own Smeagol accidentally destroys him.
God loves to hide His left hand among the weak and worthless things.
And so we should seek to fulfill the spirits of God. To end their suffering.
Like trimming wicks in the temple cuz they cry in pain to heaven with prayers of smoke.
Or like combing tangled knots out of a woman's hair.
:)-->
And you can't blame a knot out of a woman's hair.
[This message was edited by sirguessalot on February 26, 2004 at 0:43.]
I know, I know.
That was a kindy heavy.
It even came out a bit heavier than I expected to, too.
Must be something in the air.
(shrugs)
[This message was edited by sirguessalot on February 26, 2004 at 16:57.]
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Too Gray Now
Well... ya done tripped over one of 'ma hot buttons, there SirGuess.
So Here Goes:
Present Evil/ Current Darkness/ Acceptable Behaviour/
They are all linked... to Christ and who he is to us NOW.
Before I start... Just think of me like the Energizer Bunny.. just BEATIN' that Christ-Drum. There are about 40 pages of "stuff" I could post on these topics... but can't.
So here are a few things...
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Too Gray Now
Part 1:
Evil is not the enemy. I have met the enemy, and we are the ones keeping it alive.
Evil, like beauty, is in the eyes of the beholder.
Now before anyone freaks out – kindly read on… then you can freak out
:)-->
We don’t have to look very far to recognize this is a reality on the basis of human behavior.
For example: The twisted motives which inspired certain people to fly stolen airplanes full of terrified passengers into buildings full of innocent people and incinerate as many as they could – are quickly labeled “evil” in the eyes of the citizens in this country. Yet these very same acts of terror inspire others in the world to look at those responsible as if they were wonderful, brave, heroes and beautiful martyrs.
Why? ‘Tis the nature of the beast. And I think, we are feeding it and keeping it alive. If we kill the THING that made these guys do this.. we will be killing a whole lot of Christians, too... and Jews... and... and...
We may want to reconsider just what in the blue blazes happened and "attack the war on terror" with a whole new "weapon" - light.
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Too Gray Now
Part 2:
Perceptions of Evil and Beauty are all about the perception, never the reality.
The reality is the “stuff” that is behind what is perceived… like an onion, several spiritual layers deep.
Many Americans say the hijackers were deceived by the lies imbedded in their religion - that they would go straight to heaven and be with lots of wonderful virgins.
On the whole, this version of their expected end is considered to be faulty by all Christians here. Yeah, yeah, yeah... But Why do most people think like that? HMMM?
Because our own works (making people behave like Christians) are "acceptable" to God and their works (killing people) are not acceptable.
Do your own Cain and Able tie-in here.
So it all comes down to works, then doesn’t it. By our works we are judged. So we judge others by theri works... This is a fundamental “truth” – or is it???
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Too Gray Now
Part 3:
Deception can be traced to a faulty perception.
This should be of no surprise to anyone. Lucifer became full of pride, about his beauty, his eyes became puffed-shut with self importance and he deceived himself. He thought he WAS the light. (Again, a perception VS reality problem).
He thought he could be a creator; his light could sustain not only himself, but an entire universe. He convinced others to follow him. He deceived them as well. But with what did he deceive them – with his darkness????
Nope. With his light! His “Good” works!
His pride may be considered to be full of darkness - but it could not extinguish his light. So he used the light and his darkness together. (Oversimplified, I know… but just try and hang with me a bit longer)
:)-->
There are many different lights in the world.
In Lucifer’s case, we can see that God’s light – if mixed with “self-light” or pride (good works, beauty, strength and honor) (which form the bricks and mortar of deception) - it can grow that sphere of deception in influence.
This “growth of deception” increases the power of darkness.
Gee.. do we REALLY want to push this works-version of Christianity Over the World??
:(-->
Mere angels became an extension of his own darkness – So how did Lucifer enlist so many? He deceived them with light and he hid his darkness under a cloak of self-light.
Consider this in terms of our great cry of “We know we are Christians because WE do… such and such”. This is not the light of Christ... this is the same self-light of deception.
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year2027
Hi All
Yes they the one of other countries see the rich of people of USA making money off there lifes
They see the power hungry leaders of the USA
But thanks to God some see the love of USA by wanting to help them
Yes we need to clean up USA before we try to clean up other countries
There is dirt in our eyes as a whole country
That all I know to say
May God the Father, Holy Breath the Mother, and Jesus Christ the Brother give you love, grace, joy and peace
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Too Gray Now
Part 4:
In vain the fowler’s net is spread in view of the bird’s eye.
Without darkness, all deceptions would be ended. Total absence of light does not “create” darkness – NOTHING lives without light.
Darkness collapses under its own weight, so as to speak.
But in the hearts of the captives, darkness can be driven out.
Deception is one of the first vestiges that must be rooted out by THE light.
One of the greatest deceptions of all time is that we are justified and acceptable to God by our works. This deception alone caused the first born son of Adam to become a murder of his brother.
The “thing” that inspired Cain in the Garden, is with us today. It lives not only in the terrorists; it lives in many Christians, as well. And we are the ones giving it life and honor... we honor this evil with our very works! Ironic... yes?
Well, if God ALREADY reconciled the world unto Himself by Jesus Christ… then this is the reality. There remains no work to do to be acceptable to God. None. Zippo. Notta.
Our “light” is not in and of ourselves… (like Lucifer thought), and our acceptance does not come because of our works… (like Cain thought).
Christ is the light of life – not works. He is the light of the world. This is reality.
The Christians say “YOU have to believe it… and then YOU have to act like it, or else… you GO TO HELL. Repent!!” For them, it is a perception VS reality problem.
In God’s eyes, evil looks a little different… ya know…?
Nothing is as it appears. The physical world is but an appearance... it is not the stuff that is behind it.
So evil, light, behavior... all of it... is not as it appears. These parallel present "worlds" are intertwined. 9-11 was just another Brother killing his brother...
Christ is the light that we need to see. People should quit blaming the unbelievers... or the devil... they whould look within... and see if the light of their life is the light of Christ.
...Ok... My batteries have run down... I will stop now
:D-->
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Too Gray Now
Roy...
Sorry about posting on top of you.. I was just cutting and pasting...
So here's to Mud in your Eye
;)-->
I hope my 9-11 thing is seen for what it is supposed to be... an illustration of brother killing brother.
This is an understandable problem. There is no line between THEM and US. There is evil that happens when we draw lines that God do not draw.
We (Christians) cut them off from Christ.... in the 4th century... We called them UNBELIEVERS because they refused to accept that Jesus was God.
So they split. Now they are back.
We had NO Right to cut them off from the gift of Christ. Christ was NOT our gift to give.
Christ was God's gift to the world!
I tell ya, Roy... we (as "the church") really screwed that one up...
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year2027
Hi Too Gray Now
I had feel that I post to fast because I read your first two and it got me thinking
I would like to read all 40 pages
either here or another place my Email is rp2027@bbtel.com some time
We as a Church and we as a goverment too have really screwed things up YES we have
For we as a Church have let the church of money and power win since before Chirst
For we have for power and greater wisdom and more perfect understanding
And God backing us up
We gave some countries weapons when they needed love and truth
May God the Father, Holy Breath the Mother, and Jesus Christ the Brother give you love, grace, joy and peace
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excathedra
i don't know what to say. i just don't know what to say
please keep talking
i need light and my hair untangled
love you
?
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