I just stumbled upon this thread after putting CES in the search engine here.
I find it a bit deceitful for someone to act like they just kind of stumbled onto the site and are sharing their find.
The truth: BiblicalUnitarian.com started out as MY website. I registered the name in August of 2002, built the framework (including the logo design) and pretty much ran out of time to populate it due to business and personal issues. I was asked if the teens of CES could use it as a chat room of sorts and I said no, but it could be developed as a site that would give ALL Biblical Unitarians a point of reference so that they could learn how to talk to others and concentrate on the points of agreement and not the differences. It was never intended to be a CES front and I'm sorry that it turned out that way, but I can't force people to be honorable.
I foolishly sold the domain in December of 2003 to CES with the understanding (in writing) that I would have full editorial control over the content. That's pretty hard to do when I've been locked out of the backend of the site. Oh, but I'm sure there was a good reason to renege on a written agreement. -->
What I can do is start over and do what I intended to do to begin with.
I could be wrong, but I don't think Jeff was pretending to have just stumbled on this site. The way he posted that first post was just strange. Anyway, what do I know, right?
I'm disappointed in the way, er, the manner in which you were treated.
Why'd you sell the site name?
And what do you want to do that they won't let you do?
(FYI: I'm in CES' partnership plan, but I owe them no allegiances).
By the way, feel free to check out my site (hope Paw doesn't mind the ad) and let me know if I can help you. I like your idea.
quote: .... but it could be developed as a site that would give ALL Biblical Unitarians a point of reference so that they could learn how to talk to others and concentrate on the points of agreement and not the differences.
Isn't that what it turned out to be?? I know Jeff, and I also am a financial *partner* to CES -- specifically to help keep that site in the top listings when one types in "trinity", in hopes of finding answers.
Perhaps you feel badly for selling the domain, yet I see a lot of good coming from it. Perhaps you did not want it to be a CES site, but if your goals for it are realized --- then what you did should be construed as a success. :)-->
I used to be involved with CES. I withdrew all support from them back in '96. In the late-'80s and early-'90s, they were doing a lot to rethink the things we had been taught in TWI. But once they published something, that was it. No more rethinking, no matter how stupid the position was.
God CAN'T have fore-knowledge, otherwise we'd be able to blame God.
We CAN'T trust what Paul wrote in Romans, because he hadn't yet had the Momentus experience at Jerusalem that broke his "Jewish mindset".
Since the mid-'90s (and their own Momentus experiences), they have been trying to construct a new, improved version of TWI. They have lost sight of the truth, and are busy building another religious empire.
I'm going to try to respond to all of you. I sold BU because I needed the money and because I was assured in writing that I would remain the "mother".
I know Jeff, too. This is a man who claims to want to do the Lords' work yet refuses to pray with someone over a situation. Refuses to break bread and try to come to a win/win situation. Puts on a smile while he is working on shoving you out the door. And has varying standards. He cuts himself an amazing amount of slack while not doing so for others. And he has a tremendous need to be right. He seems to be caring and compassionate, but will not hesitate to use information against you. That is the Jeff I know. I love him, he is my brother in Christ, but I cannot say that I trust him with my life or with my heart. He has a lot of growing to do and there's no such thing as growth without pain.
The problems arose when he wanted a vendor at volunteer prices. What I mean by that is that I be called and expected to drop everything to fix or do something, but do it on my own dime. Since I do this for a living and only get paid when I'm billable, this presented a financial hardship on me. 75% of the work I did for them was on my dime/time and I resented the fact that they begrudged the other 25% that I did bill, particularly when I was told to bill. I would receive phone calls about coming in to do things and make hardware purchases, get yelled at for not doing them immediately, only to find out that the necessary approvals had not been given, so then I was reprimended for doing things that hadn't been approved.
Try dealing with that environment.
The solution for CES was not to work on the process, but to get rid of the person who challenged the lack of process or follow through on the process from their end, which was me.
The other problem I had was boundaries. They don't respect boundaries. Since I was a "friend", I was called any time anywhere. 6:30 in the morning. 9:30 at night. Sundays. We are talking non-emergency situations or emergencies caused by not following process.
My last major encounter with Jeff was when I was at O'Hare airport standing in line to go to Israel.
I received a call about a backup not working the night before. No amount of words could convince him that there are more to backups than slipping a tape in. It was pointless to tell him that when I did them, they worked and when he did them they didn't work because he couldn't grasp the concept of a backup rotation.
This man started on me knowing that I had just lost my sister to cancer that had only been diagnosed 2 weeks before she died and that I had been left with dealing with all the arrangements and her daughter who was alone and I needed to get away to sit in God's land for 10 days and sort through my life.
Even though there was no emergency, he felt entitled to intrude in my life because he was unhappy and wanted me to know it right then. Whatever he had to say could have waited until I returned, so instead of being able to get quiet with God, I ended up having a royal case of stress induced IBS.
Do I sound a little ticked?
Over the 4 years Jeff has worked at CES, I watched him bully a number of people; all of them women to the point where they left or were let go because they became rattled or they fought back. He was openly hostile to the access and influence I had with the Johns and Mark. Pay no attention to the fact that I had been doing what I had been doing for CES for almost nothing since 1993. Most of the time I worked for books, but he started complaining about that.
I had deluded myself into thinking there was some give and take, and yes, grace. When I saw that wasn't forthcoming, I became the vendor. Had I billed for all my time in August - September, They would have owed me $5000 even at a reduced billing rate. I only billed them for half of that and they complained that I was too expensive all the while demanding more time and complaining when I didn't respond immediately.
When I was told they had "outgrown" me, I had to laugh. I pulled them kicking and screaming into that growth. I kept saying that they needed to let go of The Way and the way to do that was through focusing on being Biblical Unitarians. When that didn't happen, I started the site and asked them if it would be OK to put some of their work out there. I also received permission from a number of other people to publish their work. Ryan offered to put the content on the site. I was fine with that. I focused on the structure, look and feel. But I wanted to focus on Biblical Unitarianism, not CES's books, tapes, and approved reading. That was the agreement that was broken by them.
I no longer have administrative access of the site, nor am I an administrative contact for the domain. I was misled about that, also. Jeff said that all the domains were being put into one place, but actually only the ones I administrated were put into a single account. The other ones were left alone.
You give your money where you believe it will serve God. We have contributed faithfully since before CES was incorporated. That support has stopped because I do know and do have firsthand knowledge of how money is spent and I believe a dispportionate amount of money goes towards "marketing" which I'm not convinced is what Jesus had in mind when he commissioned the apostles to go and make disciples.
I have stood with and given considerable time and ability to help CES find it's way out of The Way. I don't think they are headed in that direction, but The Way is like toilet paper stuck to their shoe.
Personally, I attend a Presbyterian church where several leaders, including pastors know we are not trinitarian, but that has not interfered with our ability or their willingness to let us serve. We respect each other's differences and focus on the commonality that Jesus is Lord of our lives. It is the first place that I haven't felt like an outsider. They are willing to meet me where I am and I'm willing to do the same.
I have not attended very many CES events, but the ones I have been to seem to focus more on being right rather than having the right heart. That's more Mark's area and he does focus on that, but by and large it's more about being right.
Jeff says "the proof is in the fruit". He measures fruit by numbers. I think God measures fruit by transformed lives.
We have parted company and I am going to focus on the goal of working to overcome Christian's persecuting Christians over doctrine and traditions.
I don't think you can love one another effectively when you work, socialize, and worship with only certain people. That is the mentality of CES and of orthodoxy and I don't think it's right or what Jesus had in mind.
I'm glad to hear from you all. I am not particularly bitter over the situation because CES is not my sufficiency. Neither was The Way. But I am disappointed. Thankfully I can lay it all at the feet of Jesus.
"We have parted company and I am going to focus on the goal of working to overcome Christian's persecuting Christians over doctrine and traditions. " Bravo!
"That is the mentality of CES and of orthodoxy and I don't think it's right or what Jesus had in mind." Aren't you painting othodoxy with too wide a brush? I hope it's not a chip on your shoulder. Those Presbyterians are the picture of orthodoxy, yet they are demonstrating Jesus' love with you by your account.
I've enjoyed what I like to call "my long slow slide into orthodoxy". I'm now nearly trinitarian, all but the name I guess. But the Godhead is, after all, unknowable in its fulness. I don't presume to explain God. And I don't have conflict over arguable points.
Tzaia -- Thank you for your detailed, well-thought through, and informative response. You just presented a side of CES that I have not seen, yet I will not doubt, or question what you have to say. It is obvious that you are heartfelt, and sincere -- and far be it from me to doubt such veracity.
I do not see the *ins and outs* of daily life there, as you do (or did). From a distance things look fine (much like my experience with twi), yet when a microscope is put to the issue/organization at hand, it is better wielded by one who is *on site*, as you have done.
You have given me a lot to *chew over* here. Thank you both for your honesty, and your willingness to see things in a *positive* light, despite the fact that it has meant loss to you. From all you have said -- I will be re-thinking my financial contributions to them as well.
Fyi -- I have seen CES go from an information based ministry, to what is now a full-fledged *church*, and though I do not doubt that they are doing good, I still have to wonder about the direction being taken.
God bless, and thank you again for your very excellent response.
I have gone to some Presbyterian functions myself. My experience is that they are less fundamentalist than other denominations. When I say fundamentalist I mean having set doctrinal views that a group holds to without compromise. I think the Presbyterians are perhaps less doctrinally dogmatic than other denominations. Hence, by their nature, they are more likely to see and consider differing views.
With regard to Orthodoxy, which is defined as conforming to the usual beliefs or established doctrines. This is a nice way of saying religious "group think". I made a mistake when I was in the Way denomination of accepting certain doctrines without checking them for myself through the lense of my bible, reason and gift of holy spirit. Why would I want to return to that with CES or with a fundamentalist denomination? I won't accept any religious groups word as doctrine unless I see if for myself. And I especially would not teach something as God's Word unless I saw it for myself and was willing to rework the subject material from time to time. But then my goals are different than those of a denomination. My goal is for my doctrinal understanding to be as pure as possible. If this means making major or minor changes and not blindly following the status quo then so be it.
And yes I am also a strong believer in fruit and by this I do not mean numbers in ones denomination. I mean fruit of the spirit love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control evident in ones life. I strongly believe in Jesus' words with regard to whether our doctrine will be truthful and Godly or corrupt and full of error. If one has good fruit like Jesus and Paul preached I will bet you that their doctrine will turn out good for the most part. I will also bet you that if a group or people evidence bad fruit that their doctrine will end up smelling like a garbage dump.
Matthew 7:15-20
15 "Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
quote: I made a mistake when I was in the Way denomination of accepting certain doctrines without checking them for myself through the lense of my bible, reason and gift of holy spirit. Why would I want to return to that with CES or with a fundamentalist denomination? I don't accept any religious groups word as doctrine unless I see if for myself.
Mark -- great point. I've been guity of the same. I was able to take books *recommended* by CES to see a new viewpoint, read them, and then try to make a decision -- but like twi -- I found myself starting to take their word for it, rather than actually checking it out for myself.
quote: I made a mistake when I was in the Way denomination of accepting certain doctrines without checking them for myself through the lense of my bible, reason and gift of holy spirit. Why would I want to return to that with CES or with a fundamentalist denomination? I don't accept any religious groups word as doctrine unless I see if for myself.
Mark -- great point. I've been guity of the same. I was able to take books *recommended* by CES to see a new viewpoint, read them, and then try to make a decision -- but like twi -- I found myself starting to take their word for it, rather than actually checking it out for myself.
Dittos guys.
I took twi at face value and bought into their line. My beliefs now are ones produced by study, observation and prayer. I don't take anyone's word for it on paper any more.
Mark, orthodoxy is not a bad word. Nor does it equate with dogmatism. Nor does it mean accepting a thing just because. It simply describes commonly accepted beliefs.
Where my beliefs have come into agreement with mainstream orthodoxy, it has been preceeded by a process of study, enlightenment, discovery, and finally, change of belief. That's why I described it as a long & slow process.
Hmm, Tanzania? Never heard of that country. I had to look it up on the Internet. It looks to be below Kenya in East Africa. What were you doing there Evan?
You guys are a hoot. Thanks for the coffee. I take mine with cream (the real stuff) sweet'n'low, 1 equal and 1 splenda in a real mug. Don't ask...
Perhaps you guys have been out on t or t where they have the picture of the staff. As Paul Harvey says: Now here's the rest of the story.
I was in the office when that picture was taken. I shared office space with Dan Gallager and he got up and offered me a ride to where the picture was going to be taken. I looked at him and said, "Dan, thanks for the offer, but apparently you don't realize that I don't work here." He got this really strange look on his face and went to get Schoenheit. Schoenheit said, "She's right. She is not a part of the staff and shouldn't be in that picture." Never mind that I have been there longer than all the rest of them put together and I am handed a 1099 every year. Oh yeah, it was real uncomfortable for them. I can't remember if that was the same day Karen Anne had brought in invitations to a staff Christmas party or not, but she had given mine to Jeff for him to give to me, but seeing as I was there, she went and retrieved it and gave it to me. I looked at her and thanked her and told her that apparently she didn't realize I wasn't staff. She said something about including friends. We didn't go as we had another party to go to that night. But what I'll never know is if Jeff would have passed that invitation along to me.
I go in there last week to pick up my final check, which they were dragging their feet about paying. Billy, bless his heart, introduces me as the mother of the BU website to some woman there. Apparently he has no idea that I've been shut out, but that's Billy.
But the kicker is that Mark hands me one of those usb thumb drives explaining that he can't get it to work in his computer or laptop. The restraint I showed was remarkable. What I wanted to say was, "Didn't you hire someone to do these kinds of things?" But what I did was test it and tell him to throw it away.
My goal is to get up on the top of the search engines without spending a dime. One of the ways that can happen is if people link to the site and vote for it using google's toolbar.
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
44
33
28
45
Popular Days
Feb 7
41
Feb 21
24
Feb 9
21
Feb 10
14
Top Posters In This Topic
Raf 44 posts
Tzaia 33 posts
Steve Lortz 28 posts
dmiller 45 posts
Popular Days
Feb 7 2005
41 posts
Feb 21 2005
24 posts
Feb 9 2005
21 posts
Feb 10 2005
14 posts
Tzaia
I just stumbled upon this thread after putting CES in the search engine here.
I find it a bit deceitful for someone to act like they just kind of stumbled onto the site and are sharing their find.
The truth: BiblicalUnitarian.com started out as MY website. I registered the name in August of 2002, built the framework (including the logo design) and pretty much ran out of time to populate it due to business and personal issues. I was asked if the teens of CES could use it as a chat room of sorts and I said no, but it could be developed as a site that would give ALL Biblical Unitarians a point of reference so that they could learn how to talk to others and concentrate on the points of agreement and not the differences. It was never intended to be a CES front and I'm sorry that it turned out that way, but I can't force people to be honorable.
I foolishly sold the domain in December of 2003 to CES with the understanding (in writing) that I would have full editorial control over the content. That's pretty hard to do when I've been locked out of the backend of the site. Oh, but I'm sure there was a good reason to renege on a written agreement.
-->
What I can do is start over and do what I intended to do to begin with.
Tzaia
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Raf
I could be wrong, but I don't think Jeff was pretending to have just stumbled on this site. The way he posted that first post was just strange. Anyway, what do I know, right?
I'm disappointed in the way, er, the manner in which you were treated.
Why'd you sell the site name?
And what do you want to do that they won't let you do?
(FYI: I'm in CES' partnership plan, but I owe them no allegiances).
By the way, feel free to check out my site (hope Paw doesn't mind the ad) and let me know if I can help you. I like your idea.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
dmiller
Isn't that what it turned out to be?? I know Jeff, and I also am a financial *partner* to CES -- specifically to help keep that site in the top listings when one types in "trinity", in hopes of finding answers.
Perhaps you feel badly for selling the domain, yet I see a lot of good coming from it. Perhaps you did not want it to be a CES site, but if your goals for it are realized --- then what you did should be construed as a success.
:)-->
Link to comment
Share on other sites
TheInvisibleDan
Tzia's goals have not been "realized" if CES has gone back on their original agreement to allow this person "full editorial control".
The good folks at CES apparently lied to this person.
Does this sound like the kind of group one would want to support?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Steve Lortz
I used to be involved with CES. I withdrew all support from them back in '96. In the late-'80s and early-'90s, they were doing a lot to rethink the things we had been taught in TWI. But once they published something, that was it. No more rethinking, no matter how stupid the position was.
God CAN'T have fore-knowledge, otherwise we'd be able to blame God.
We CAN'T trust what Paul wrote in Romans, because he hadn't yet had the Momentus experience at Jerusalem that broke his "Jewish mindset".
Since the mid-'90s (and their own Momentus experiences), they have been trying to construct a new, improved version of TWI. They have lost sight of the truth, and are busy building another religious empire.
Love,
Steve
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Tzaia
Hi,
I'm going to try to respond to all of you. I sold BU because I needed the money and because I was assured in writing that I would remain the "mother".
I know Jeff, too. This is a man who claims to want to do the Lords' work yet refuses to pray with someone over a situation. Refuses to break bread and try to come to a win/win situation. Puts on a smile while he is working on shoving you out the door. And has varying standards. He cuts himself an amazing amount of slack while not doing so for others. And he has a tremendous need to be right. He seems to be caring and compassionate, but will not hesitate to use information against you. That is the Jeff I know. I love him, he is my brother in Christ, but I cannot say that I trust him with my life or with my heart. He has a lot of growing to do and there's no such thing as growth without pain.
The problems arose when he wanted a vendor at volunteer prices. What I mean by that is that I be called and expected to drop everything to fix or do something, but do it on my own dime. Since I do this for a living and only get paid when I'm billable, this presented a financial hardship on me. 75% of the work I did for them was on my dime/time and I resented the fact that they begrudged the other 25% that I did bill, particularly when I was told to bill. I would receive phone calls about coming in to do things and make hardware purchases, get yelled at for not doing them immediately, only to find out that the necessary approvals had not been given, so then I was reprimended for doing things that hadn't been approved.
Try dealing with that environment.
The solution for CES was not to work on the process, but to get rid of the person who challenged the lack of process or follow through on the process from their end, which was me.
The other problem I had was boundaries. They don't respect boundaries. Since I was a "friend", I was called any time anywhere. 6:30 in the morning. 9:30 at night. Sundays. We are talking non-emergency situations or emergencies caused by not following process.
My last major encounter with Jeff was when I was at O'Hare airport standing in line to go to Israel.
I received a call about a backup not working the night before. No amount of words could convince him that there are more to backups than slipping a tape in. It was pointless to tell him that when I did them, they worked and when he did them they didn't work because he couldn't grasp the concept of a backup rotation.
This man started on me knowing that I had just lost my sister to cancer that had only been diagnosed 2 weeks before she died and that I had been left with dealing with all the arrangements and her daughter who was alone and I needed to get away to sit in God's land for 10 days and sort through my life.
Even though there was no emergency, he felt entitled to intrude in my life because he was unhappy and wanted me to know it right then. Whatever he had to say could have waited until I returned, so instead of being able to get quiet with God, I ended up having a royal case of stress induced IBS.
Do I sound a little ticked?
Over the 4 years Jeff has worked at CES, I watched him bully a number of people; all of them women to the point where they left or were let go because they became rattled or they fought back. He was openly hostile to the access and influence I had with the Johns and Mark. Pay no attention to the fact that I had been doing what I had been doing for CES for almost nothing since 1993. Most of the time I worked for books, but he started complaining about that.
I had deluded myself into thinking there was some give and take, and yes, grace. When I saw that wasn't forthcoming, I became the vendor. Had I billed for all my time in August - September, They would have owed me $5000 even at a reduced billing rate. I only billed them for half of that and they complained that I was too expensive all the while demanding more time and complaining when I didn't respond immediately.
When I was told they had "outgrown" me, I had to laugh. I pulled them kicking and screaming into that growth. I kept saying that they needed to let go of The Way and the way to do that was through focusing on being Biblical Unitarians. When that didn't happen, I started the site and asked them if it would be OK to put some of their work out there. I also received permission from a number of other people to publish their work. Ryan offered to put the content on the site. I was fine with that. I focused on the structure, look and feel. But I wanted to focus on Biblical Unitarianism, not CES's books, tapes, and approved reading. That was the agreement that was broken by them.
I no longer have administrative access of the site, nor am I an administrative contact for the domain. I was misled about that, also. Jeff said that all the domains were being put into one place, but actually only the ones I administrated were put into a single account. The other ones were left alone.
You give your money where you believe it will serve God. We have contributed faithfully since before CES was incorporated. That support has stopped because I do know and do have firsthand knowledge of how money is spent and I believe a dispportionate amount of money goes towards "marketing" which I'm not convinced is what Jesus had in mind when he commissioned the apostles to go and make disciples.
I have stood with and given considerable time and ability to help CES find it's way out of The Way. I don't think they are headed in that direction, but The Way is like toilet paper stuck to their shoe.
Personally, I attend a Presbyterian church where several leaders, including pastors know we are not trinitarian, but that has not interfered with our ability or their willingness to let us serve. We respect each other's differences and focus on the commonality that Jesus is Lord of our lives. It is the first place that I haven't felt like an outsider. They are willing to meet me where I am and I'm willing to do the same.
I have not attended very many CES events, but the ones I have been to seem to focus more on being right rather than having the right heart. That's more Mark's area and he does focus on that, but by and large it's more about being right.
Jeff says "the proof is in the fruit". He measures fruit by numbers. I think God measures fruit by transformed lives.
We have parted company and I am going to focus on the goal of working to overcome Christian's persecuting Christians over doctrine and traditions.
I don't think you can love one another effectively when you work, socialize, and worship with only certain people. That is the mentality of CES and of orthodoxy and I don't think it's right or what Jesus had in mind.
I'm glad to hear from you all. I am not particularly bitter over the situation because CES is not my sufficiency. Neither was The Way. But I am disappointed. Thankfully I can lay it all at the feet of Jesus.
Hope this made sense.
Now back to work!!
Tzaia
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Raf
Thank you for an eye opening account.
If CES/STFI people read this, I hope someone answers.
I don't like the way you were treated. Perhaps we can talk about joining forces?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
TheEvan
Eye-opening indeed. Thanks.
"We have parted company and I am going to focus on the goal of working to overcome Christian's persecuting Christians over doctrine and traditions. " Bravo!
"That is the mentality of CES and of orthodoxy and I don't think it's right or what Jesus had in mind." Aren't you painting othodoxy with too wide a brush? I hope it's not a chip on your shoulder. Those Presbyterians are the picture of orthodoxy, yet they are demonstrating Jesus' love with you by your account.
I've enjoyed what I like to call "my long slow slide into orthodoxy". I'm now nearly trinitarian, all but the name I guess. But the Godhead is, after all, unknowable in its fulness. I don't presume to explain God. And I don't have conflict over arguable points.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Tzaia
I'm not painting a wide brush on orthodoxy. I'm happy at my Presbyterian church.
It's not everybody. Just the noisy few that cause the problems.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
dmiller
Tzaia -- Thank you for your detailed, well-thought through, and informative response. You just presented a side of CES that I have not seen, yet I will not doubt, or question what you have to say. It is obvious that you are heartfelt, and sincere -- and far be it from me to doubt such veracity.
I do not see the *ins and outs* of daily life there, as you do (or did). From a distance things look fine (much like my experience with twi), yet when a microscope is put to the issue/organization at hand, it is better wielded by one who is *on site*, as you have done.
You have given me a lot to *chew over* here. Thank you both for your honesty, and your willingness to see things in a *positive* light, despite the fact that it has meant loss to you. From all you have said -- I will be re-thinking my financial contributions to them as well.
Fyi -- I have seen CES go from an information based ministry, to what is now a full-fledged *church*, and though I do not doubt that they are doing good, I still have to wonder about the direction being taken.
God bless, and thank you again for your very excellent response.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mark Sanguinetti
I have gone to some Presbyterian functions myself. My experience is that they are less fundamentalist than other denominations. When I say fundamentalist I mean having set doctrinal views that a group holds to without compromise. I think the Presbyterians are perhaps less doctrinally dogmatic than other denominations. Hence, by their nature, they are more likely to see and consider differing views.
With regard to Orthodoxy, which is defined as conforming to the usual beliefs or established doctrines. This is a nice way of saying religious "group think". I made a mistake when I was in the Way denomination of accepting certain doctrines without checking them for myself through the lense of my bible, reason and gift of holy spirit. Why would I want to return to that with CES or with a fundamentalist denomination? I won't accept any religious groups word as doctrine unless I see if for myself. And I especially would not teach something as God's Word unless I saw it for myself and was willing to rework the subject material from time to time. But then my goals are different than those of a denomination. My goal is for my doctrinal understanding to be as pure as possible. If this means making major or minor changes and not blindly following the status quo then so be it.
And yes I am also a strong believer in fruit and by this I do not mean numbers in ones denomination. I mean fruit of the spirit love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control evident in ones life. I strongly believe in Jesus' words with regard to whether our doctrine will be truthful and Godly or corrupt and full of error. If one has good fruit like Jesus and Paul preached I will bet you that their doctrine will turn out good for the most part. I will also bet you that if a group or people evidence bad fruit that their doctrine will end up smelling like a garbage dump.
Matthew 7:15-20
15 "Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
NIV
Thanks for your posts Tzaia.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Raf
Almost forgot...
Link to comment
Share on other sites
dmiller
Mark -- great point. I've been guity of the same. I was able to take books *recommended* by CES to see a new viewpoint, read them, and then try to make a decision -- but like twi -- I found myself starting to take their word for it, rather than actually checking it out for myself.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
dmiller
Raf -- You have coffee??
I'll take mine black, with some milk, please!!!
:D-->
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Raf
When you put milk in coffee, it is no longer black. Just like when you put pineapple on a pizza, it's no longer a pizza.
:)-->
Link to comment
Share on other sites
dmiller
I knew you would get it!!!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
def59
Dittos guys.
I took twi at face value and bought into their line. My beliefs now are ones produced by study, observation and prayer. I don't take anyone's word for it on paper any more.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
TheEvan
Mark, orthodoxy is not a bad word. Nor does it equate with dogmatism. Nor does it mean accepting a thing just because. It simply describes commonly accepted beliefs.
Where my beliefs have come into agreement with mainstream orthodoxy, it has been preceeded by a process of study, enlightenment, discovery, and finally, change of belief. That's why I described it as a long & slow process.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
TheEvan
Oh Tzaia, whence your handle, if you don't mind sharing it?
It makes me think of Tanzania, where I was in December.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mark Sanguinetti
Hmm, Tanzania? Never heard of that country. I had to look it up on the Internet. It looks to be below Kenya in East Africa. What were you doing there Evan?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Tzaia
You guys are a hoot. Thanks for the coffee. I take mine with cream (the real stuff) sweet'n'low, 1 equal and 1 splenda in a real mug. Don't ask...
Perhaps you guys have been out on t or t where they have the picture of the staff. As Paul Harvey says: Now here's the rest of the story.
I was in the office when that picture was taken. I shared office space with Dan Gallager and he got up and offered me a ride to where the picture was going to be taken. I looked at him and said, "Dan, thanks for the offer, but apparently you don't realize that I don't work here." He got this really strange look on his face and went to get Schoenheit. Schoenheit said, "She's right. She is not a part of the staff and shouldn't be in that picture." Never mind that I have been there longer than all the rest of them put together and I am handed a 1099 every year. Oh yeah, it was real uncomfortable for them. I can't remember if that was the same day Karen Anne had brought in invitations to a staff Christmas party or not, but she had given mine to Jeff for him to give to me, but seeing as I was there, she went and retrieved it and gave it to me. I looked at her and thanked her and told her that apparently she didn't realize I wasn't staff. She said something about including friends. We didn't go as we had another party to go to that night. But what I'll never know is if Jeff would have passed that invitation along to me.
I go in there last week to pick up my final check, which they were dragging their feet about paying. Billy, bless his heart, introduces me as the mother of the BU website to some woman there. Apparently he has no idea that I've been shut out, but that's Billy.
But the kicker is that Mark hands me one of those usb thumb drives explaining that he can't get it to work in his computer or laptop. The restraint I showed was remarkable. What I wanted to say was, "Didn't you hire someone to do these kinds of things?" But what I did was test it and tell him to throw it away.
I have a skeleton of a site up at http://www.christianunitarian.com/index.php I'll be interested in any input on the design as that's about as far as I've gotten so far.
My goal is to get up on the top of the search engines without spending a dime. One of the ways that can happen is if people link to the site and vote for it using google's toolbar.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mark Sanguinetti
Thanks again for posting Tzaia. Do you have any tips to share for web sites getting to the top of search engines?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Raf
Picky picky...
Link to comment
Share on other sites
TheSongRemainsTheSame
RAF
Hmmm, sounds like some of the finest weed in the Shire has been spoken~~~ watch them Hooters!!!
Song
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.