quote: Despite the advantage that you refer to, why could not a "pre-existant" man have the capacity to be tempted and therefore to sin?
Good question, but the answer there is obvious. If you, or I, or anyone were to "pre-exist" before we were actually born and living physically on planet earth, don't you think that we would have a rememberance of that existance?
Certainly a "pre-existant man" could have the ability to sin, however the advantage I mentioned would be that they (you, I, whoever), would be able to remember what it was like in our "previous state", and thus be able to refute the sin that tempted, more easily than one who has not "been around the block" in terms of existance.
Jehovah's Witnesses teach that Jesus is not God, yet they do teach He was pre-existant, and come up with some pretty lame excuses (imho) about how He convieniantly "forgot" who He was previously.
“In speaking of the God of the Bible it is, I believe, of the utmost importance that we speak of him first as he is in himself prior to his relation to the created world and man. Reformed theologians therefore distinguish between the ontological and the economical Trinity, the former referring to the three persons of the Godhead in their internal relations to one another, the latter referring to the works of this triune God with respect to the created universe. With respect to the ontological Trinity I try to follow Calvin in stressing that there is no subordination of essence as between the three persons. As Warfield points out when speaking of Calvin’s doctrine of the Trinity ‘ … the Father, the Son, the Spirit is each this one God, the entire divine essence being in each.’”
-- Cornelius Van Til. The Defense of the Faith-First Edition
*****
Both the Book of Genesis and John’s gospel begin their narratives speaking of internal and external relations of the triune God.
Genesis begins with what Van Til has called the “economical Trinity.” It begins with the triune God acting in creation. It attests that God created the heavens and the earth. It affirms that Spirit of God hovered over the surface of the waters. It reveals that God acted: creating light, an expanse, oceans, land, vegetation, heavenly bodies, fish, birds, animals. It then declares that God spoke within himself, to the plurality within himself, and proceeded to make man in his own image (Genesis 1:26-27).
John begins his gospel speaking of that which was prior to creation. John attests that the Word existed at the precipice of creation. He affirms that the Word was with God, thereby indicating the Word was correlative to God, and not at all correlative to creation. John proceeds to state that the Word was God, indicating the Word was in being the very being of God. Having spoken of the Word’s existence, the Word's correlativity to God and the Word's deity before and apart from creation, John continues. He speaks of the Word in the Word’s relation to all created things, asserting that the Word’s creative instrumentality extended to every particular of creation (John 1:3).
Rather than revealing the Word to have been some impersonal abstraction, John declares that the Word was the unique Son of God who became flesh (1:14).
John’s gospel continues resonating with Jesus Christ’s pre-Incarnate existence.
It reveals the Lord as having descended out of heaven (3:13), as having come down out of heaven (6:33,38,50,51,58).
It records John the Baptist contrasting himself to the Lord by indicating that wheras he is of the earth, the Lord came from heaven
It reveals Jesus Christ having cognizance of the prior existence he had with the Father, and speaking to the Father of the glory that he had with him before the creation of the world (17:5).
Jesus Christ's existence and relationship with God the Father was prior to creation. Jesus Christ had glory with his Father prior to anything existing outside of the ontological Trinity.
quote:Also, how would you address the argument by some trinitarians that only an incarnate God could have been the perfect, unblemished sacrifice?
Simple. The Bible doesn't say that.
Well, it does say that Jesus is our passover (lamb) and in Exodus 12:5 it says that the lamb shall be without blemish. Some trintarians view this as an indication that Jesus was God: no blemish.
I understand that some Trinitarians say that. The Bible doesn't. If a lamb can be unblemished, why not a man? Adam was unblemished before the fall. Why does the second Adam have to be God to be unblemished? The first Adam wasn't God. The passover lamb wasn't God.
While I understand what you're saying, the difference is that there is a religious belief called "Unitarianism" that is not Biblical. "Biblical Unitarianism" is a distinction that avoids confusion with the generic term "Unitarianism."
"Biblical Trinitarianism" is redundant, since the Trinitarian argument is recognized as being based on people's understanding of the Bible. "Unitarianism," without the "Biblical" prefix, is not recognized as being based on people's understanding of the Bible.
quote:Originally a scripturally oriented movement, in the mid-19th cent. Unitarianism became a religion of reason under the leadership of James Martineau in England and Ralph Waldo Emerson and Theodore Parker in the United States. Reason and conscience were considered the only guides to religious truth; complete religious toleration, innate human goodness, and universal salvation were preached...
The American Unitarian Association was formed in 1825, and in 1865 a national conference was organized. A congregational form of government prevails in the Unitarian churches, each congregation having control of its own affairs. Neither ministers nor members are required to make profession of any particular doctrine, and no creed has been adopted by the church. The covenant in general use is simply, “In the love of truth, and in the spirit of Jesus, we unite for worship of God and the service of man.” In 1961 the Universalist Church of America merged with the American Unitarian Association to form the Unitarian Universalist Association.
"Biblical Unitarianism" more specifically distinguishes between that belief and "Unitarian Universalism."
Trinitarians are afforded the privilege of referring to their belief as "Orthodox," which means "true doctrine." Biblical Unitarians don't enjoy the same privilege.
Trinitarians are also fond of saying that "Biblical Unitarianism" is an oxymoron.
Here is a response I saw in reference to biblical unitarianism I thought some might enjoy to take a whack at.
-DEf
"I had this on file in my computer and while the references can be multiplied (see for example "The Trinity" by Edward H Bickersteth -excellent short book, still in print and probably not bettered although written a century ago; or any orthodox systematic theology under Nature of God) the approach is very sound.
The Bible establishes the Trinity by declaring that there is only one God, that each of the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit is God, and that each of the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit are real persons. Hence -One God in Three Persons.
The Persons of the triune God.
How does one describe a person? A person has three qualities which set him aside from objects or forces. Firstly a person has a will, he is able to make decisions, secondly a person has emotions, he is able to love or be upset, and lastly a person is able to intelligently reason, he has an intellect. When some undefined object or item has these three abilities it is defined to be a person. Not necessarily a human being but possibly an angel, demon or even a member of the Godhead.
There are three important questions which must be asked concerning the persons of the Trinity: do they have these qualities?
Firstly, the Father:
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life. (John 3:16, NASB)
Obviously this is speaking of the Father, Jesus is His only begotten Son. The Father loves the world (emotions) and made a decision to send his Son (will) and did this to save those who choose to believe in Jesus (intellect). The Father is thus defined to have all three qualities.
Secondly, the Son:
When Jesus therefore saw her weeping, and the Jews who came with her, also weeping, He was deeply moved in spirit, and was troubled, and said, "Where have you laid him?" They said to Him, "Lord, come and see." Jesus wept. And so the Jews were saying, "Behold how He loved him!" (John 11:3 3?35, NASB)
In this passage Jesus is seen to love and be troubled (thus having emotions), making a decision to raise Lazarus from the dead (will) and ask for the directions to Lazarus grave (intellect). The Son is therefore shown to have all three attributes.
Thirdly, the Holy Spirit:
But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills. (1 Corinthians 12:11, NASB)
And while they were ministering to the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, "Set apart for Me Barnabas and Saul for the work which I have called them." (Acts 13:2 , NASB)
For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these essentials. (Acts 15:2 8, NASB)
And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. (Ephesians 4:3 2, NASB)
The Holy Spirit can be upset (emotions) and make decisions (will) and evaluate what He wants to do (intellect). Thus even the Holy Spirit is a person. For a more complete discussion of the personality see below in the section dealing with the Holy Spirit.
The last point to labour for proof of the Trinity is that of the deity of each of the persons.
Firstly, the Father:
For even if there are so?called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, yet for use there is but one God, the Father... (1 Corinthians 8:5/6a, NASB)
Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who reside as aliens... who are chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, that you may obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in fullest measure.(1 Peter 1:1/2,NASB)
The Son
The Father is called God. There is no doubt about that, but what about Christ?
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (John 1:1, NASB)
For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. (Isaiah 9:6, NASB)
The Son is called God. For a thorough discussion of John 1:1 see below in the chapter on the New World Translation. It suffices to say at this point that the clear teaching of the Bible, as cited above, is that there is only one true God. All other gods are false. These references must therefore
show that Jesus is the true God.
Lastly, the Holy Spirit:
But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thy heart to lie to the Holy Spirit... Thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God. (Acts 5:3 , 4, NASB)
The Holy Spirit is thus called God. A thorough treatment of the deity of the Holy Spirit also involves a careful examination of His names, works and attributes. This is done below in the section dealing with the Holy Spirit.
The Trinity is thus proven.
There is one God and three persons, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit; each person is called God. No more proof for the Trinity is necessary. There are a number of trinitarian passages which, when understood in the light of the above passages, shows the teaching of the triune God:
The angel answered, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God."(Luke 1:3 5, New International Version)
When all the people were being baptized, Jesus was baptized too, And as he was praying, heaven was opened and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven: "You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased."(Luke 3:2 1?22, New International Version)
May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.(2 Corinthians 13:14, New International Version)
And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever ? the Spirit of truth.(John 14:16?17a, New International Version)
Then the Lord Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit (Matthew 28:18?19, New International Version)
The resurrection of the Lord Jesus is the greatest historical occurrence ever and in which the whole Trinity was involved. Firstly the Lord Jesus prophesied about this that when he was killed he would raise up his own body within three days:
The Lord Jesus answered them, "Destroyed this temple, and I will raise it again in three days." The Jews replied, "It has taken forty?six years to build this temple, and you are going to raise it in three days?" But the temple he had spoken of was his body.(John 2:19?20, New International Version)
Secondly it was also the work of the Father:
They tell us how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead(1 Thessalonians 1:9b?10a, New International Version)
Thirdly the Holy Spirit raised Jesus from the dead:
He [the Lord Jesus] was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit.(1 Peter 3:18b, New International Version)
And yet God raised the Lord Jesus from the dead:
...but God raised him from the dead on the third day and caused him to be seen.(Acts 10:4 0, New International Version)
Conclusion
When all the biblical teachings are set side by side and compared openly the only conclusion is that there is one God, and that He is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit."
Here is a response I saw in reference to biblical unitarianism I thought some might enjoy to take a whack at.
-DEf
It's very "wackable", def! I've seen much better defenses or explanations of the trinity-->
The Bible establishes the Trinity by declaring that there is only one God,
can't argue with that!
that each of the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit is God, and that each of the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit are real persons. Hence -One God in Three Persons.
Well I would say that even the best arguments for the trinity show only that the bible implies these things without ever coming out clearly and saying it. Trinitarians infer the trinity from things that they feel are inconsistant with a purely human Jesus
The Persons of the triune God.
How does one describe a person? A person has three qualities which set him aside from objects or forces. Firstly a person has a will, he is able to make decisions, secondly a person has emotions, he is able to love or be upset, and lastly a person is able to intelligently reason, he has an intellect. When some undefined object or item has these three abilities it is defined to be a person. Not necessarily a human being but possibly an angel, demon or even a member of the Godhead.
There are three important questions which must be asked concerning the persons of the Trinity: do they have these qualities?
The writer is not arguing that Jesus Christ is God, that is assumed. What he is arguing is that each aspect of God is a "person". I didn't leave in the supporting scriptures, but jumped down to his next point, where he does argue about the deity of the three "persons"
The last point to labour for proof of the Trinity is that of the deity of each of the persons.
Firstly, the Father:
Well, yeah...who's gonna argue with that?
The Son
The Father is called God. There is no doubt about that, but what about Christ?
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (John 1:1, NASB)
Wierwille would have (and did) called this a "difficult verse". Although it doesn't say "the Word" was Jeus Christ, later it says that "the Word was made flesh". I think at least this biblical writer considered Jesus to be God.
For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. (Isaiah 9:6, NASB)
Not every translation renders it thus
The Son is called God. For a thorough discussion of John 1:1 see below in the chapter on the New World Translation. It suffices to say at this point that the clear teaching of the Bible, as cited above, is that there is only one true God. All other gods are false. These references must therefore
show that Jesus is the true God.
I doesn't appear to me that there is an absence of contradiction in bible verses about the nature of Jesus. The few verses cited here don't really settle anything
Lastly, the Holy Spirit:
But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thy heart to lie to the Holy Spirit... Thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God. (Acts 5:3 , 4, NASB)
The Holy Spirit is thus called God. A thorough treatment of the deity of the Holy Spirit also involves a careful examination of His names, works and attributes. This is done below in the section dealing with the Holy Spirit.
Nothing cited here shows that "the spirit", or "the holy spirit" has a "personhood" separate from "The Father". A trinity is assumed to make the argument.
The Trinity is thus proven.
It is argued, but certainly not proven
There is one God and three persons, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit; each person is called God. No more proof for the Trinity is necessary.
Yeah, I think there is more proof needed. The reasoning is somewhat circular.
In my opinion, one of the main strikes against trinitarianism is that, while it claims to treat all "three" "persons" equally, in practice it usually results in the Son being exalted over the Father. They're so involved in a Jesus-cult of personality that they HAVE to elevate him to godhood so they won't consider themselves idolaters. While I have no doubt that God entrusted Jesus with all of His power and authority, I also have no doubt that if Jesus had eaten the Eden fruit (so to speak) while he was here, he would have found himself taking the dirt nap next to Adam's. In other words, a strong case can be made that God could veto Jesus, if necessary. (cf. Gethsemane) Therefore, God > Jesus, and subsequently Jesus <> God.
The O.T. is full of symbolism. Look at Joseph, sold into slavery, yet becoming the highest person in the land -- second only to Pharoah.
Look at Isaac -- a son willing to do his father's will, even to death. He was the second "recorded" son of Abraham, yet the only one recognized by God as an heir. Any similarities to Adam, and Jesus here?? Hmmmm?
There are other "types" of Christ in the OT that show subservience on one hand by the son, and an "expectant" Father looking for such, on the other hand.
I find it hard to even imagine that Jesus is God (though that is what I was taught), given the many clear, explicit examples of a willing son fulfilling the desires of the father in the OT -- and anyone who wishes to look at this honestly -- will hopefully realize that a son may have the qualities of his father, but is NOT the one and same person.
How could Jesus have prayed --"Not my will, but Yours" if He was a part of the "The Godhead"?
Two distinct entities are involved here -- Jesus (man), and God (supreme). I, for one, do not care where vpw got this "theology" -- and others have expanded on the topic since I read his work -- but it is correct, and to question it, is to butt your head into a theological wall that will prove superior, and more formidable than that which your head (helmet included) will prevail against.
Jesus Christ is not God, but he is the closest thing to God we will ever see -- both now, and in the here-after. And that will be because of what He has done, as a man, tempted like us, yet refusing to sin -- and going thru the agony and death that He did as a completely guiltless person for the likes of you and I, the exact opposite.
The only "trinity" I believe in is -- God in Christ in Me.
quote: Any similarities to Adam, and Jesus here?? Hmmmm?
I did forget to metion the fact that Adam was created by God (but I guess you knew that).
If Jesus is the 2nd Adam, (also created as Adam was), how could He be a part of a "trinity"?? Not possible, nor viable if the salvation of mankind is in question.
Your comments, while striking some blows against some trinitarian ideas (I suppose), demonstrate more than anything ignorance of what orthodox trinitarians believe.
Saying Jesus is God without acknowledging his humanity would be easily debunked. I have no problem with calling Him God (NOT the Father you guys!) when his humanity is acknowledged.
Saying he is not Divine, requires some serious tiptoeing through the tulips.
THE MAIN REASON IT REMAINS SUCH A HUGE ISSUE IS BECAUSE WIERWILLE MADE IT A HUGE ISSUE. Remember him? You know, the plaigarist & sexual predator.
You'll find that, for most, it's not a huge issue. Most people understand that the Godhead is not explicitly described in the Bible and understand that it is essentially unknowable in its entirety. Therefore to argue its points becomes futile. I say, despite Wierwille's contant hammering to the contrary, your specific beliefs regarding the Godhead are not essential to the quality of your Christian walk.
Wierwille certainly did make it a big issue, he considered it consistent with his soteriology.
But I think he had the attitude that if he could'nt understand something then why should anybody else?
So he proceeded to try and "fit" his ideas into the Word.
I wish I still had my copy of JCING as his treatment of John 1 demonstrated the hoops and interpolations he made to try and explain the inconsistencies of the "clear verses" elsewhere against the clarity of expression one finds in John. The greek most certainly does not support his attempted translation "according to usage" and his deliberate attempts to mix in the logos as the Word (as in Bible). Throwing in phrases like "The Word of God is as much God as God is God" only served to mask his inability to carry it off.
John is so inconvenient - he states that the Word was God and that the word was made flesh and dwelt among us. I can attest that it actually says that in the Greek and is not a mistranslation. There are also greek texts which render huios (son) as theos (god).
Wierwille also ties to make the trinitarian understanding of God over simplistic and his ultimate weapon is too often mockery. Cartoons showing devil spirits lying on their backs and splitting their sides over the idea that "1+1+1=1" for example.
His final tack it to claim that if Jesus is God then man has not been redeemed. There is no chapter and verse for such a statement just his usual use of his own logic - he just cannot understand the trinitarian view of Jesus having a dual nature. Such a conclusion is a perfectly reasonable one for many people - a divine being takes flesh and as a man suffers and dies upon the cross.
My conclusion is that the subject is not as cut and dried as the Unitarian camp would have. Wierwille's work was at best sloppy and at worse dishonest. There are biblical verses that he does not even attempt to deal with - he steers well away from OT passages for example which you will be familiar with if you know Handel's
You guys make an assumption that we have based our conclusions solely on Wierwille, without any further study. It is a mistaken assumption. Many people, Christians, have come to the same conclusion as Wierwille. When discussing this issue (on those rare occasions that I do these days), I leave Wierwille out of the discussion. He is not an authority and his history/hermeneutics are laughable.
But even a broken clock is right twice a day, as they say.
quote: I say, despite Wierwille's constant hammering to the contrary, your specific beliefs regarding the Godhead are not essential to the quality of your Christian walk.
Absolutely. :)-->
And btw -- my apologies for making it sound like it was vpw who I was promoting. In no way do I promote, support, or extol him, or his works. The "wall" I mentioned was not vpw's take on the doctrine, but the doctine itself -- which became a big issue in 325 at the Council of Nicea.
You're right Raf, and I knew it. Don't know why I came in here with my elbows swinging like that.
But I must ask, how essential is a clear delineation of a doctrine of the Godhead. My thinking is that, as He is God and we are not, He is largely unknowable...except what He clearly reveals. As the revelation He has given us seems so inconclusive, why not leave it as what it is...a partial revelation? And then get on with business of BEING Christian? The cumpulsion to spell everything out in airtight packages of logic may, just may, be at the expense of dynamic Christian living.
Informed and orthodox Trinitarians do not maintain that the Father and the Son are the same person.
They generally maintain that the being or essence of God is singular and indivisible, and that the being or essence of God exists fully in the Father, in the Son and in the Holy Spirit. They equally maintain that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are personally distinct from one another.
What they maintain is made necessary by some propositions and indications of Scripture, and is consistent with all others.
There is one God -- one uncreated, self-sufficiently existing deity. There are three divine persons -- existing eternally on the Creator side of the Creator/creature distinction. Thus, informed and orthodox Trinitarianism recognizes a singleness of being or essence and a plurality of persons in God. What does all this mean? It means, as D. A. Reed and some others maintain, that in the triune God there are three who's and one what.
There is no adequate analogy concerning absolute singleness of undivided being (or essence) dwelling in and among a plurality of particulars that could be gleaned from any of the kinds of existents in this creation to which men's thoughts are bound.
*****
“But this God must be what he declares himself to be: the tri-personal, self-subsisting God. Any attenuation at the outset is fatal. ‘The Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost are each a personality and together constitute the exhaustively personal God. There is an eternal, internal, self-conscious interaction between the three persons of the Godhead....Each is as much God as are the other two....The diversity and the unity in the God-head are therefore equally ultimate; they are exhaustively correlative to one another and not correlative to anything else.’ This Trinity is called the ontological Trinity. By the use of the adjective Van Til, following Reformed theology in general, intends to set off the concept of God ad intra, or as he is in himself, from the concept of God ad extra, or as he produces effects outside of himself. When, therefore, we talk of the ontological Trinity, we contemplate God apart from the cosmos over which he presides.”
-- Cornelius Van Til (quoting John Vriend). The Defense of the Faith
Wierwille and others' charge that the doctrine of the Trinity entails some logical contradiction requiring that 1+1+1 = 1 is, of course, fallacious. The refutation would work if Trinitarians held that that there were both a singular and a plurality of essences in God, or held that God were both tri-personal and unipersonal. As indicated above, however, Trinitarians hold that God is singular in being (or essence) and tri-personal. Informed, orthodox and intellectually functioning Trinitarians do not assert that God is one and three in the same sense.
Such a charge of logical contradiction against the Trinity, therefore, impeaches neither the logical validity nor the soundness of the doctrine. The charge ostensibly involves incredible ignorance or a mere disguised brute denial of the ontological and personal categories that Trinitarians use to communicate a biblically necessary and warranted understanding of God.
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Raf
Simple. The Bible doesn't say that.
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Abigail
"Abi: I don't take that to mean Jesus suffered every single possible temptation, merely those that are universal among humankind. "
but doesn't the Bible say he was tempted in all things like we are?
And do you not think there are temptations which are unique to married couples and parents?
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dmiller
Good question, but the answer there is obvious. If you, or I, or anyone were to "pre-exist" before we were actually born and living physically on planet earth, don't you think that we would have a rememberance of that existance?
Certainly a "pre-existant man" could have the ability to sin, however the advantage I mentioned would be that they (you, I, whoever), would be able to remember what it was like in our "previous state", and thus be able to refute the sin that tempted, more easily than one who has not "been around the block" in terms of existance.
Jehovah's Witnesses teach that Jesus is not God, yet they do teach He was pre-existant, and come up with some pretty lame excuses (imho) about how He convieniantly "forgot" who He was previously.
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Cynic
“In speaking of the God of the Bible it is, I believe, of the utmost importance that we speak of him first as he is in himself prior to his relation to the created world and man. Reformed theologians therefore distinguish between the ontological and the economical Trinity, the former referring to the three persons of the Godhead in their internal relations to one another, the latter referring to the works of this triune God with respect to the created universe. With respect to the ontological Trinity I try to follow Calvin in stressing that there is no subordination of essence as between the three persons. As Warfield points out when speaking of Calvin’s doctrine of the Trinity ‘ … the Father, the Son, the Spirit is each this one God, the entire divine essence being in each.’”
-- Cornelius Van Til. The Defense of the Faith-First Edition
*****
Both the Book of Genesis and John’s gospel begin their narratives speaking of internal and external relations of the triune God.
Genesis begins with what Van Til has called the “economical Trinity.” It begins with the triune God acting in creation. It attests that God created the heavens and the earth. It affirms that Spirit of God hovered over the surface of the waters. It reveals that God acted: creating light, an expanse, oceans, land, vegetation, heavenly bodies, fish, birds, animals. It then declares that God spoke within himself, to the plurality within himself, and proceeded to make man in his own image (Genesis 1:26-27).
John begins his gospel speaking of that which was prior to creation. John attests that the Word existed at the precipice of creation. He affirms that the Word was with God, thereby indicating the Word was correlative to God, and not at all correlative to creation. John proceeds to state that the Word was God, indicating the Word was in being the very being of God. Having spoken of the Word’s existence, the Word's correlativity to God and the Word's deity before and apart from creation, John continues. He speaks of the Word in the Word’s relation to all created things, asserting that the Word’s creative instrumentality extended to every particular of creation (John 1:3).
Rather than revealing the Word to have been some impersonal abstraction, John declares that the Word was the unique Son of God who became flesh (1:14).
John’s gospel continues resonating with Jesus Christ’s pre-Incarnate existence.
It reveals the Lord as having descended out of heaven (3:13), as having come down out of heaven (6:33,38,50,51,58).
It records John the Baptist contrasting himself to the Lord by indicating that wheras he is of the earth, the Lord came from heaven
(3:31).
It reveals Jesus Christ having cognizance of the prior existence he had with the Father, and speaking to the Father of the glory that he had with him before the creation of the world (17:5).
Jesus Christ's existence and relationship with God the Father was prior to creation. Jesus Christ had glory with his Father prior to anything existing outside of the ontological Trinity.
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Oakspear
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Zixar
Then again, if sufficiently-blemishless baby sheep are abundant on this planet, an unblemished human would not be that far-fetched.
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Raf
Oaks,
I understand that some Trinitarians say that. The Bible doesn't. If a lamb can be unblemished, why not a man? Adam was unblemished before the fall. Why does the second Adam have to be God to be unblemished? The first Adam wasn't God. The passover lamb wasn't God.
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def59
To be fair we should call the dispute biblical trinitarianism vs. biblical unitarianism or tri vs. uni with the biblical as understood.
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Raf
Def,
While I understand what you're saying, the difference is that there is a religious belief called "Unitarianism" that is not Biblical. "Biblical Unitarianism" is a distinction that avoids confusion with the generic term "Unitarianism."
"Biblical Trinitarianism" is redundant, since the Trinitarian argument is recognized as being based on people's understanding of the Bible. "Unitarianism," without the "Biblical" prefix, is not recognized as being based on people's understanding of the Bible.
"Biblical Unitarianism" more specifically distinguishes between that belief and "Unitarian Universalism."
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def59
I know all that Raf. I just wanted to be clear in our understanding of the others belief that we both feel our points are biblical.
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Raf
Look at it this way:
Trinitarians are afforded the privilege of referring to their belief as "Orthodox," which means "true doctrine." Biblical Unitarians don't enjoy the same privilege.
Trinitarians are also fond of saying that "Biblical Unitarianism" is an oxymoron.
Anyway, like I said, I see your point.
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def59
Here is a response I saw in reference to biblical unitarianism I thought some might enjoy to take a whack at.
-DEf
"I had this on file in my computer and while the references can be multiplied (see for example "The Trinity" by Edward H Bickersteth -excellent short book, still in print and probably not bettered although written a century ago; or any orthodox systematic theology under Nature of God) the approach is very sound.
The Bible establishes the Trinity by declaring that there is only one God, that each of the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit is God, and that each of the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit are real persons. Hence -One God in Three Persons.
The Persons of the triune God.
How does one describe a person? A person has three qualities which set him aside from objects or forces. Firstly a person has a will, he is able to make decisions, secondly a person has emotions, he is able to love or be upset, and lastly a person is able to intelligently reason, he has an intellect. When some undefined object or item has these three abilities it is defined to be a person. Not necessarily a human being but possibly an angel, demon or even a member of the Godhead.
There are three important questions which must be asked concerning the persons of the Trinity: do they have these qualities?
Firstly, the Father:
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life. (John 3:16, NASB)
Obviously this is speaking of the Father, Jesus is His only begotten Son. The Father loves the world (emotions) and made a decision to send his Son (will) and did this to save those who choose to believe in Jesus (intellect). The Father is thus defined to have all three qualities.
Secondly, the Son:
When Jesus therefore saw her weeping, and the Jews who came with her, also weeping, He was deeply moved in spirit, and was troubled, and said, "Where have you laid him?" They said to Him, "Lord, come and see." Jesus wept. And so the Jews were saying, "Behold how He loved him!" (John 11:3 3?35, NASB)
In this passage Jesus is seen to love and be troubled (thus having emotions), making a decision to raise Lazarus from the dead (will) and ask for the directions to Lazarus grave (intellect). The Son is therefore shown to have all three attributes.
Thirdly, the Holy Spirit:
But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills. (1 Corinthians 12:11, NASB)
And while they were ministering to the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, "Set apart for Me Barnabas and Saul for the work which I have called them." (Acts 13:2 , NASB)
For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these essentials. (Acts 15:2 8, NASB)
And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. (Ephesians 4:3 2, NASB)
The Holy Spirit can be upset (emotions) and make decisions (will) and evaluate what He wants to do (intellect). Thus even the Holy Spirit is a person. For a more complete discussion of the personality see below in the section dealing with the Holy Spirit.
The last point to labour for proof of the Trinity is that of the deity of each of the persons.
Firstly, the Father:
For even if there are so?called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, yet for use there is but one God, the Father... (1 Corinthians 8:5/6a, NASB)
Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who reside as aliens... who are chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, that you may obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in fullest measure.(1 Peter 1:1/2,NASB)
The Son
The Father is called God. There is no doubt about that, but what about Christ?
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (John 1:1, NASB)
For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. (Isaiah 9:6, NASB)
The Son is called God. For a thorough discussion of John 1:1 see below in the chapter on the New World Translation. It suffices to say at this point that the clear teaching of the Bible, as cited above, is that there is only one true God. All other gods are false. These references must therefore
show that Jesus is the true God.
Lastly, the Holy Spirit:
But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thy heart to lie to the Holy Spirit... Thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God. (Acts 5:3 , 4, NASB)
The Holy Spirit is thus called God. A thorough treatment of the deity of the Holy Spirit also involves a careful examination of His names, works and attributes. This is done below in the section dealing with the Holy Spirit.
The Trinity is thus proven.
There is one God and three persons, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit; each person is called God. No more proof for the Trinity is necessary. There are a number of trinitarian passages which, when understood in the light of the above passages, shows the teaching of the triune God:
The angel answered, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God."(Luke 1:3 5, New International Version)
When all the people were being baptized, Jesus was baptized too, And as he was praying, heaven was opened and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven: "You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased."(Luke 3:2 1?22, New International Version)
May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.(2 Corinthians 13:14, New International Version)
And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever ? the Spirit of truth.(John 14:16?17a, New International Version)
Then the Lord Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit (Matthew 28:18?19, New International Version)
The resurrection of the Lord Jesus is the greatest historical occurrence ever and in which the whole Trinity was involved. Firstly the Lord Jesus prophesied about this that when he was killed he would raise up his own body within three days:
The Lord Jesus answered them, "Destroyed this temple, and I will raise it again in three days." The Jews replied, "It has taken forty?six years to build this temple, and you are going to raise it in three days?" But the temple he had spoken of was his body.(John 2:19?20, New International Version)
Secondly it was also the work of the Father:
They tell us how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead(1 Thessalonians 1:9b?10a, New International Version)
Thirdly the Holy Spirit raised Jesus from the dead:
He [the Lord Jesus] was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit.(1 Peter 3:18b, New International Version)
And yet God raised the Lord Jesus from the dead:
...but God raised him from the dead on the third day and caused him to be seen.(Acts 10:4 0, New International Version)
Conclusion
When all the biblical teachings are set side by side and compared openly the only conclusion is that there is one God, and that He is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit."
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Oakspear
Originally posted by def59:
Here is a response I saw in reference to biblical unitarianism I thought some might enjoy to take a whack at.
-DEf
It's very "wackable", def! I've seen much better defenses or explanations of the trinity
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The Bible establishes the Trinity by declaring that there is only one God,
can't argue with that!
that each of the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit is God, and that each of the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit are real persons. Hence -One God in Three Persons.
Well I would say that even the best arguments for the trinity show only that the bible implies these things without ever coming out clearly and saying it. Trinitarians infer the trinity from things that they feel are inconsistant with a purely human Jesus
The Persons of the triune God.
How does one describe a person? A person has three qualities which set him aside from objects or forces. Firstly a person has a will, he is able to make decisions, secondly a person has emotions, he is able to love or be upset, and lastly a person is able to intelligently reason, he has an intellect. When some undefined object or item has these three abilities it is defined to be a person. Not necessarily a human being but possibly an angel, demon or even a member of the Godhead.
There are three important questions which must be asked concerning the persons of the Trinity: do they have these qualities?
The writer is not arguing that Jesus Christ is God, that is assumed. What he is arguing is that each aspect of God is a "person". I didn't leave in the supporting scriptures, but jumped down to his next point, where he does argue about the deity of the three "persons"
The last point to labour for proof of the Trinity is that of the deity of each of the persons.
Firstly, the Father:
Well, yeah...who's gonna argue with that?
The Son
The Father is called God. There is no doubt about that, but what about Christ?
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (John 1:1, NASB)
Wierwille would have (and did) called this a "difficult verse". Although it doesn't say "the Word" was Jeus Christ, later it says that "the Word was made flesh". I think at least this biblical writer considered Jesus to be God.
For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. (Isaiah 9:6, NASB)
Not every translation renders it thus
The Son is called God. For a thorough discussion of John 1:1 see below in the chapter on the New World Translation. It suffices to say at this point that the clear teaching of the Bible, as cited above, is that there is only one true God. All other gods are false. These references must therefore
show that Jesus is the true God.
I doesn't appear to me that there is an absence of contradiction in bible verses about the nature of Jesus. The few verses cited here don't really settle anything
Lastly, the Holy Spirit:
But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thy heart to lie to the Holy Spirit... Thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God. (Acts 5:3 , 4, NASB)
The Holy Spirit is thus called God. A thorough treatment of the deity of the Holy Spirit also involves a careful examination of His names, works and attributes. This is done below in the section dealing with the Holy Spirit.
Nothing cited here shows that "the spirit", or "the holy spirit" has a "personhood" separate from "The Father". A trinity is assumed to make the argument.
The Trinity is thus proven.
It is argued, but certainly not proven
There is one God and three persons, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit; each person is called God. No more proof for the Trinity is necessary.
Yeah, I think there is more proof needed. The reasoning is somewhat circular.
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Zixar
In my opinion, one of the main strikes against trinitarianism is that, while it claims to treat all "three" "persons" equally, in practice it usually results in the Son being exalted over the Father. They're so involved in a Jesus-cult of personality that they HAVE to elevate him to godhood so they won't consider themselves idolaters. While I have no doubt that God entrusted Jesus with all of His power and authority, I also have no doubt that if Jesus had eaten the Eden fruit (so to speak) while he was here, he would have found himself taking the dirt nap next to Adam's. In other words, a strong case can be made that God could veto Jesus, if necessary. (cf. Gethsemane) Therefore, God > Jesus, and subsequently Jesus <> God.
But that's just my opinion.
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Raf
I just don't see how one Person in the Godhead can keep a secret from another Person in the Godhead.
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dmiller
The O.T. is full of symbolism. Look at Joseph, sold into slavery, yet becoming the highest person in the land -- second only to Pharoah.
Look at Isaac -- a son willing to do his father's will, even to death. He was the second "recorded" son of Abraham, yet the only one recognized by God as an heir. Any similarities to Adam, and Jesus here?? Hmmmm?
There are other "types" of Christ in the OT that show subservience on one hand by the son, and an "expectant" Father looking for such, on the other hand.
I find it hard to even imagine that Jesus is God (though that is what I was taught), given the many clear, explicit examples of a willing son fulfilling the desires of the father in the OT -- and anyone who wishes to look at this honestly -- will hopefully realize that a son may have the qualities of his father, but is NOT the one and same person.
How could Jesus have prayed --"Not my will, but Yours" if He was a part of the "The Godhead"?
Two distinct entities are involved here -- Jesus (man), and God (supreme). I, for one, do not care where vpw got this "theology" -- and others have expanded on the topic since I read his work -- but it is correct, and to question it, is to butt your head into a theological wall that will prove superior, and more formidable than that which your head (helmet included) will prevail against.
Jesus Christ is not God, but he is the closest thing to God we will ever see -- both now, and in the here-after. And that will be because of what He has done, as a man, tempted like us, yet refusing to sin -- and going thru the agony and death that He did as a completely guiltless person for the likes of you and I, the exact opposite.
The only "trinity" I believe in is -- God in Christ in Me.
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dmiller
I did forget to metion the fact that Adam was created by God (but I guess you knew that).
If Jesus is the 2nd Adam, (also created as Adam was), how could He be a part of a "trinity"?? Not possible, nor viable if the salvation of mankind is in question.
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TheEvan
Sigh.
Your comments, while striking some blows against some trinitarian ideas (I suppose), demonstrate more than anything ignorance of what orthodox trinitarians believe.
Saying Jesus is God without acknowledging his humanity would be easily debunked. I have no problem with calling Him God (NOT the Father you guys!) when his humanity is acknowledged.
Saying he is not Divine, requires some serious tiptoeing through the tulips.
THE MAIN REASON IT REMAINS SUCH A HUGE ISSUE IS BECAUSE WIERWILLE MADE IT A HUGE ISSUE. Remember him? You know, the plaigarist & sexual predator.
You'll find that, for most, it's not a huge issue. Most people understand that the Godhead is not explicitly described in the Bible and understand that it is essentially unknowable in its entirety. Therefore to argue its points becomes futile. I say, despite Wierwille's contant hammering to the contrary, your specific beliefs regarding the Godhead are not essential to the quality of your Christian walk.
I do not believe Wierwille, period.
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Trefor Heywood
Wierwille certainly did make it a big issue, he considered it consistent with his soteriology.
But I think he had the attitude that if he could'nt understand something then why should anybody else?
So he proceeded to try and "fit" his ideas into the Word.
I wish I still had my copy of JCING as his treatment of John 1 demonstrated the hoops and interpolations he made to try and explain the inconsistencies of the "clear verses" elsewhere against the clarity of expression one finds in John. The greek most certainly does not support his attempted translation "according to usage" and his deliberate attempts to mix in the logos as the Word (as in Bible). Throwing in phrases like "The Word of God is as much God as God is God" only served to mask his inability to carry it off.
John is so inconvenient - he states that the Word was God and that the word was made flesh and dwelt among us. I can attest that it actually says that in the Greek and is not a mistranslation. There are also greek texts which render huios (son) as theos (god).
Wierwille also ties to make the trinitarian understanding of God over simplistic and his ultimate weapon is too often mockery. Cartoons showing devil spirits lying on their backs and splitting their sides over the idea that "1+1+1=1" for example.
His final tack it to claim that if Jesus is God then man has not been redeemed. There is no chapter and verse for such a statement just his usual use of his own logic - he just cannot understand the trinitarian view of Jesus having a dual nature. Such a conclusion is a perfectly reasonable one for many people - a divine being takes flesh and as a man suffers and dies upon the cross.
My conclusion is that the subject is not as cut and dried as the Unitarian camp would have. Wierwille's work was at best sloppy and at worse dishonest. There are biblical verses that he does not even attempt to deal with - he steers well away from OT passages for example which you will be familiar with if you know Handel's
Messiah.
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Raf
You guys make an assumption that we have based our conclusions solely on Wierwille, without any further study. It is a mistaken assumption. Many people, Christians, have come to the same conclusion as Wierwille. When discussing this issue (on those rare occasions that I do these days), I leave Wierwille out of the discussion. He is not an authority and his history/hermeneutics are laughable.
But even a broken clock is right twice a day, as they say.
My opinion.
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dmiller
Absolutely.
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And btw -- my apologies for making it sound like it was vpw who I was promoting. In no way do I promote, support, or extol him, or his works. The "wall" I mentioned was not vpw's take on the doctrine, but the doctine itself -- which became a big issue in 325 at the Council of Nicea.
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TheEvan
You're right Raf, and I knew it. Don't know why I came in here with my elbows swinging like that.
But I must ask, how essential is a clear delineation of a doctrine of the Godhead. My thinking is that, as He is God and we are not, He is largely unknowable...except what He clearly reveals. As the revelation He has given us seems so inconclusive, why not leave it as what it is...a partial revelation? And then get on with business of BEING Christian? The cumpulsion to spell everything out in airtight packages of logic may, just may, be at the expense of dynamic Christian living.
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Cynic
DMiller,
Informed and orthodox Trinitarians do not maintain that the Father and the Son are the same person.
They generally maintain that the being or essence of God is singular and indivisible, and that the being or essence of God exists fully in the Father, in the Son and in the Holy Spirit. They equally maintain that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are personally distinct from one another.
What they maintain is made necessary by some propositions and indications of Scripture, and is consistent with all others.
There is one God -- one uncreated, self-sufficiently existing deity. There are three divine persons -- existing eternally on the Creator side of the Creator/creature distinction. Thus, informed and orthodox Trinitarianism recognizes a singleness of being or essence and a plurality of persons in God. What does all this mean? It means, as D. A. Reed and some others maintain, that in the triune God there are three who's and one what.
There is no adequate analogy concerning absolute singleness of undivided being (or essence) dwelling in and among a plurality of particulars that could be gleaned from any of the kinds of existents in this creation to which men's thoughts are bound.
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“But this God must be what he declares himself to be: the tri-personal, self-subsisting God. Any attenuation at the outset is fatal. ‘The Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost are each a personality and together constitute the exhaustively personal God. There is an eternal, internal, self-conscious interaction between the three persons of the Godhead....Each is as much God as are the other two....The diversity and the unity in the God-head are therefore equally ultimate; they are exhaustively correlative to one another and not correlative to anything else.’ This Trinity is called the ontological Trinity. By the use of the adjective Van Til, following Reformed theology in general, intends to set off the concept of God ad intra, or as he is in himself, from the concept of God ad extra, or as he produces effects outside of himself. When, therefore, we talk of the ontological Trinity, we contemplate God apart from the cosmos over which he presides.”
-- Cornelius Van Til (quoting John Vriend). The Defense of the Faith
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Cynic
Trefor,
Jolly good post!
Wierwille and others' charge that the doctrine of the Trinity entails some logical contradiction requiring that 1+1+1 = 1 is, of course, fallacious. The refutation would work if Trinitarians held that that there were both a singular and a plurality of essences in God, or held that God were both tri-personal and unipersonal. As indicated above, however, Trinitarians hold that God is singular in being (or essence) and tri-personal. Informed, orthodox and intellectually functioning Trinitarians do not assert that God is one and three in the same sense.
Such a charge of logical contradiction against the Trinity, therefore, impeaches neither the logical validity nor the soundness of the doctrine. The charge ostensibly involves incredible ignorance or a mere disguised brute denial of the ontological and personal categories that Trinitarians use to communicate a biblically necessary and warranted understanding of God.
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