Just a thought, but I think alot of "ministering" to people has to do with recognizing need, and then freely giving of oneself or one's resources to satisfy that need in another, in a situation, whatever.
I think a big problem entered in when those who had "need" were viewed as somehow "not believing." Or when incredibly tragic events occured, and somehow it was the person's "fault," "unrenewed mind," "lack of believing," "spiritual weakness," ad infinitum. Somehow the mindset was one of codemnation, instead of mercy and kindness.
Somehow way doctrine bred that kind of poisonous subculture. I think it had to do with getting rid of the cross, myself. But, we've had this conversation at the cafe before. :D-->
Well...had to add this edit...I'm referring here to UncleHairy's post a bit ago. I keep forgetting a post can pop between. I'll need to use the quote things more.
Well, since TWI is not full to capacity - pletho - of false teachers, nor was pletho with false teachers, we can discount many people out of that equation.
TWI is different from The Way. The latter is described as followers of the Lord Jesus Christ for the more abundant life....
You identified the "TWI", which focuses on 3 individual members, the primary number of members at any time. Possibly inclusive are employees if we take that into account.
One primary member I was taught by was Dr. Wierwille. Another member I met with in person and exchanged correspondence with was Dr. Donald Wierwille. I never found contamination in that man's ministry that I think God would be ashamed of.
So, rather than focus on an entire group of members, I'd find it safer to specifically identify the exact one's that fit the mold.
Suppose a plane has 300 passengers. If 299 are terrorists, was that a flight of terrorists? I believe it's best to say the plane had 299 terrorists on it.
Suppose it had 1 terrorist. Was that a flight of terrorists. Not in my book. I'd say it was a flight with 1 terrorist on it.
So for me, I can't grasp the concept of a general one label fits all.
By chance, have you read any of the things shared by people who were hurt by many of the leaders of the way? I encourage you to read the following link of someone's life in the way.
Also, I left AFTER lcm was ousted (or whatever they call his leaving) because of micromanaging nazis. There is a problem in the structure of the way. Maybe it's not so apparent in your nick of the woods, but it is in a lot of other woods. I worked at HQ for 5 years (left in 2001), and my time there was not the "best". I felt like a used rag when I left that place.
In over 20 years, I, as others have probably heard every version of a calamity that could be described.
Just as some people fabricated myth about me, it could be done in reverse. So if I don't experience it, and can't sit with the mouths of 2 or 3 witnesses in person, I won't believe something for certain. That's the Words standard - at the mouth of two or three witnesses. And if it's true, but old news, it may be relevant or not.
But one thing you wrote has me curious...really curious. Okay, we can agree, that many people are gone from TWI. Many have had their reasons or made a choice to leave.
Anyone reading this...anyone...was there a point on staff at TWI or in the TWI fellowship structure that (when) you truly felt blessed? Was there a time when you felt nurtured? Loved? Encouraged?
Do you believe it was a "system" that changed it for you?
And, you don't have to answer this, but did you dish out the negatives that you think you were the recipient of?
Few problems ever permeate every crevice. Did you feel you noticed a difference where percieved problems ended as far as progression from one person to another? One department to another?
Of course some of the folks in twi had nobel intentions and caring hearts, other did not. The bottom line was that the foundation of twi was doctrinally flawed. Whoever taught the wrong doctrine, contributed nothing to my Christian education. The line of demarcation is that many of the top leaders became corrupt and INTENDED harmful deceptions on people. Those are the ones that I hold responsible. Who were they? Veepee Wierwille for one, lc Martindale for another. From these two, many "clones" were produced...how about evil associations corrupt good morals...or a little leaven, etc etc. I cannot name the name of every false teacher and abuser of God's people...the testamonies of those here at GS could easily name names of most of the top leaders of twi...but I think the point is, if anyone was truly following the Lord Jesus, they departed from twi.
It was a corrupt system. Built on wrong doctrine and run by dishonest and abusive men. I commend those who genuinely followed the Lord in their ministering to people...in spite of twi.
We are here mdvaden, we are real flesh and blood people *present* behind these screens sharing our experiences....honest...lol. Many of us actually knew each other in twi, many have met in person since departure. Liars are usually readily apparent.
No, not all involved in twi were evil........heck, just look at the wonderfull folks here..... even some former leaders!
It takes a lot of courage to take an honest look at the lives of your brothers and sisters devistated by evil men, and yes vpw and lcm were two of the biggest villains.
There are many of us here who have experienced the evil personally, there are those of us here who have had family members and loved ones damaged directly at the hands of these men.
M.D. Vaden, you strike me as an honorable person, I understand that you believe that you are defending the *truth* and the *teachers* of the *truth*.
What is hard is that you have to call so very many of us liars to do so.
One point to bear in mind that helps me being here is that some folks suffer from an incurable Personality Disorder disease called "I Can't Stop Thinking and Speaking Evil About TWI and the BOT"
Once you know who these folks are, it's easier to cope with being here.
I was at a Family Camp in 1974 near Rye, New York.
I had a pain in my abdomen and I asked someone to minister to me, and they prayed for what was going on. Then, just to be sure, I asked a second person to minister to me. They prayed for the same thing. Well, that wasn't enough so I asked a THIRD person. (Jan Jesse, I think)
When she ministered to me, she said that the cause was gone and what was left was only symptoms. It was like God said, "Cut it out, you're healed already!"
So, I do believe that we are capable of ministering healing to others and of receiving healing. I had other instances of people ministering to me and hitting the nail right on the head. I can think of at least five instances I experienced like that off the top of my head.
But I have given up trying to anyalyze why or when or if. I just know it can happen. And I still minister sometimes and receive the same.
When Belle said in a post farther above, that by the 90's people wouldn't and couldn't minister healing, to me that is one more example of how TWI got totally ripped off by the Devil.
That's the main reason I left, or more properly, refused to jump through any more hoops or conditions in order to be involved. No power left there. Everything seemed so carnal to me- the forever never ending scheduling, cleaning, going here, going there- meetings and more meetings- all with no profit. More and more "attention to details". No "ministering".
The larger meetings seemed artificial to me- like a stupid religious infomercial. Our function turned from sharing and/or caring to that of a carnival barker. My opinion- people more and more had to be conned into taking the classes, and they did not stick around da ministry after (or even if) they finished it.
And it got worse after I was gone. More scheduling, including approval from your overseers- more fleshly ordinances. No power or spirit anymore- gotta do something I guess.
A lot of the corps were sincere before- really wanted to help. They evolved into meddlers and troublers. Obviously, since you were not successfull in analyzing every fleshly detail in life, they were the answer.. oh well.
Toward the end of it all, I was not really impressed with Loy's "handling" of scripture. His teachings and material seemed to reek of legalism- at least to me. The rise and expansion book- way too much- too many details, too much stuff to "do" and not "believe". "Lets see, am I doing this, and that, and that..." Turned from grace and love into law. No wonder we couldn't minister any more.
....and SOME people can`t seem to make their own point without taking a swipe at other posters....it is generally regarded as R.M.F.P.A.W. TWI ...(residual meanness from past association with twi).
Once you know who THESE folks are lol, it is easier to cope with their unrelenting attacks on our veracity and understand their unreasonable need to defend evil at all cost....
MDVaden, I’d like to take a stab at some of your questions and comments, if I may. I’ll preface my comments by letting you know that I have been uninvolved with TWI for less than a year. I also have been divorced for less than a year. Much of this is due to the suggestion from the Region Coordinator and the local Way Corps to my ex-husband because I decided to no longer attend TWI functions. (BTW, the Region Coordinator’s wife is one of the leaders who counseled some of the women abused by Craig Martindale and did nothing to stop him.)
quote:
I think I see what your are trying to say. But may I add...for some of us, those were grand days of joy and hard work with great fruit.
The reason why, was that all those things were not ideal for "me" but they were awesome for "us".
were grand days of joy….with great fruit. Can you honestly say that today, MDVaden? I couldn’t have said anything like that honestly in the past ten years. Many things we did want to do for fun were squashed by local leadership because they would have violated some unspoken “rule†of TWI. I realize things are different in each area, but this is how it was in my area and it was not fun.
quote:
If I was confused in life, in or out of the Way, it was primarily because I chose to be confused. In most cases, I had the truth at my fingertips and the ability to know. But I chose to be confused, chose to "take on faith" what people said.
In addition, it was generally my choice to accept something off kilter and not go to the Word with people that had influence.
With all due respect, I am going to disagree with you and UH on this one. I did not CHOOSE to be confused. I was looking for answers which is how I ended up at TWI. I had gotten many answers from my church growing up, but I had moved away from home AND I had more questions. The people I met said they had answers.
I took those answers and the keys you mentioned on another thread and applied them. I found that some of the things TWI was teaching (from HQ down to the twig level) were incorrect according to what I found. I was given such a song and dance by the household fellowship coordinator up to the Way Corps over the area that it wasn’t even funny. I was told by some that I was right and others told me I was right, but that the problem was with me. TWI is still teaching incorrect doctrine despite my attempts and the attempts of others on this board, to show them a more accurate way.
So, no. I did not choose to be confused and I did not accept something off kilter. I did follow proper TWI protocol and saw nothing change despite my efforts.
quote:
Well, since TWI is not full to capacity - pletho - of false teachers, nor was pletho with false teachers, we can discount many people out of that equation.
TWI is different from The Way. The latter is described as followers of the Lord Jesus Christ for the more abundant life....
You identified the "TWI", which focuses on 3 individual members, the primary number of members at any time. Possibly inclusive are employees if we take that into account.
One primary member I was taught by was Dr. Wierwille. Another member I met with in person and exchanged correspondence with was Dr. Donald Wierwille. I never found contamination in that man's ministry that I think God would be ashamed of.
So, rather than focus on an entire group of members, I'd find it safer to specifically identify the exact one's that fit the mold.
Are the teachings of TWI at the Sunday services not approved of first by Rosalie and Donna anymore? Do they not have to conform to TWI doctrine? Is one free to teach something that is truly accurate but not in line with what TWI teaches?
The three individual members dictate what goes into the Way Magazine, into the verses of the songs, into the teachings that are allowed all throughout TWI. Therefore, a teacher in TWI teaching and adhering to TWI doctrine IS a false teacher. A leader in TWI who labeled some people as mark & avoid because they wouldn’t sell their homes in the 90’s is a false teacher. IMO, the people who ARE NOT false teachers have left TWI or are floundering desperately trying to affect change because they see the problems.
quote:
Just as some people fabricated myth about me, it could be done in reverse. So if I don't experience it, and can't sit with the mouths of 2 or 3 witnesses in person, I won't believe something for certain. That's the Words standard - at the mouth of two or three witnesses. And if it's true, but old news, it may be relevant or not.
LCM did sit with the mouths of more than two or three witnesses in person and do you know what happened to them? They were kicked out of TWI and had to file a lawsuit to get TWI to listen to them. Do you know who was there when he was confronted? Your president and her personal assistant as well as others who are still in charge and making command decisions for your ministry. I consider it very relevant that past behavior is a pretty darn good indication of present and future behavior, especially when those with bad past records refuse to apologize or even admit to having done some of the things court documents can prove by their own mouth.
quote:
Anyone reading this...anyone...was there a point on staff at TWI or in the TWI fellowship structure that (when) you truly felt blessed? Was there a time when you felt nurtured? Loved? Encouraged?
Do you believe it was a "system" that changed it for you?
And, you don't have to answer this, but did you dish out the negatives that you think you were the recipient of?
Honestly, MDVaden, the times I felt truly blessed, loved, nurtured and encouraged were few and far between. Looking back it was probably my first six months to year of being involved with TWI. After that time it became a constant struggle to be good enough and to attend every meeting or have a darn good excuse for not being there because “I didn’t feel like it†wouldn’t cut it. I took four years of begging to be removed from assistant fellowship coordinator status and a “confrontation†session for us to finally have relief from that time and pressure requirement.
An organization is only as good as it’s people. A chain is only as strong as its weakest link. It’s the Word, not the people. The Word, The Word and nothing but The Word (as long as it’s what TWI teaches that The Word is).
The people attending fellowships are sweet, kind lambs and they are being led and deceived by wolves in sheep’s clothing. Is it the people or is it The Word? If it’s The Word then it should be The Word correctly divided and the people should be willing to change when they find they have been teaching The Word incorrectly.
If 1/100 th of the things you read here on Gspot are true (and I believe much more than that is true) then the people leading TWI are worse than Eli and his sons and we aren’t limited in our choices of where to worship like the people in Eli’s area were. The wise and prudent thing to do, imo, is find where people speak, act, live and teach the rightly divided Word. Where it’s okay to ask questions. Where you can make your own choices and do not have to worry about how your actions may be construed. Where all leadership sets the example and is held accountable to the people of the congregation. Where the books and finances are an open book to the congregation since that is their money.
I respect you, MDVaden. Kudos to you! I hope you stick around and I hope you find what you’re looking for here.
GALEN:
quote:
So what have folks been doing to minister unto others lately?
I have recently began coaching my son's highschool fencing team, and I help out at the Vet center....
I took cookies to our new neighbors and introduced myself.
I baked and brought yummy cheeseballs and hot coffee to a dog competition this week-end because many people were camping out and did not have access to these kinds of goodies. I also volunteered my time to help in quite a few ways because they were short-handed.
I volunteer my database skills for free to a group that desperately needed my help.
I’ve stopped on the side of the road to loan my cell phone or a ride to people who have been broken down several times in the past few months. I’ve met some really nice, neat people this way.
I type my neighbor's chuch group agenda and other paperwork each week for her.
One point to bear in mind that helps me being here is that some folks suffer from an incurable Personality Disorder disease called "I Can't Stop Thinking and Speaking Evil About TWI and the BOT"
Once you know who these folks are, it's easier to cope with being here.
Thanks for sharing...please continue. :)-->
Don't forget it's closely related syndrome "I can't resist implying that those who had negative experiences are lying or delusional"
I'm breaking from estimates and arborist reports for a few moments...so I'll hit on one piece of the pie for now:
quote:
were grand days of joy….with great fruit. Can you honestly say that today, MDVaden?
In my sphere of exposure - Yes, for a fact. (meaning I can today say that about that point in time then).
There is TWI technically 3 members with hired staff, legally recognized. Anyone else associated is also referred to as TWI. The two are not identical Word and spiritually wise. There is overlap in a way of speaking, whether now or at one point in time.
It's available for sections of the body of Christ with or without a legal entity organization to walk the Word and manifest holy spirit.
So - aside from any good or bad that I did not know about in the administrative part of TWI - my sphere of recognition and influence was the west branch of Portland, Oregon.
Fellowship was sweet. We talked about the Word for hours. I was never told to study, if anything, me and others would have to be told to study less because we loved reading the Word so much. People regularly came to fellowship, parties and restaurants and had fun. No one was made to stay. Some people visited once. Many hung out with us. Usually - if outside criticism did not affect new people, they like having a good time.
I loved doing setup and helping with classes. It was a blast. And I'm not the only one.
One of the first fellowships I was in grew so fast, that I volunteered to break off and coordinate. Within a year or so, we split into three because of the new people that came. We were all friends and lived life together.
It was positive, refreshing and we had limited negative exposure to many things that may or may not have existed.
NOW...In the old testament...Psalms I recall, David makes a statement about recalling the greatness of good times and fellowship of believers in an earlier time.
So I know that'a at least one man of God that the Word displays as relishing in a known and preserved thought of past fruitful fellowship.
EDIT TO ADD: Now today, I don't think it's the same overall. But, what I realize, is that any group of likeminded believers (EVEN WITHIN TWI) can function as fruitfully and prosperously if they make the decision to do so.
I have no legal membership nor employment papers with the Way. So I, and any other person in our fellowship can function freely according to the written word, the manifestations and what we desre to do. No one is stopping me.
Right now, Portland at least, since that's my area of awareness, is far different from how some people paint TWI to be.
Now, if there is religion - that's that person's fault.
Take finances. I outwardly speak my mind on that. Guess who is still here? Me.
I talk about finances with other believers - maybe a bit different. It's not exactly being done in a closet. Guess who is still here? Us.
One key - if we believe different in an area, we are not antagonistic about it. Maybe some people will need several years to come around to a concept. So why do damage if it's avoidable. Look at healing. God can enable any healing. Yet some people may go for years without getting healed. Why? I don't know. But no sense to beat them over the head about what they have difficulty believing.
And like I said, if any decide to be religious, but don't persecute me, how can I spread bitter words?
My fellowship coordinator knows full well I work the word different in finances and a few other things, but we are likeminded on many, many things like:
a. when I teach, I don't press into an area that is different. and not because I'm pressured to. I guarantee you, if I wanted to teach something newly different this week, I'd go ahead and do it. the verses I pick are entirely my choice. and I am teaching this week, as several times this year.
b. what we agree on we enjoy.
c. what we differ on, we don't blackball or start a campaign against each other.
So, honestly, it's not the way "I" would like it, but it's a myriad of levels better than the picture painted by people that have no view of the scenery.
A blind man can't paint the grand canyon or blade of grass he can't see. Niether can someone evaluate and explain about people's lives of which they have no immediate knowledge; the behavior of which they cannot observe change or continuance.
Just a thought, but I think alot of "ministering" to people has to do with recognizing need, and then freely giving of oneself or one's resources to satisfy that need in another, in a situation, whatever
That's where it is, Ex. I think you nailed it; I think of the many times that it is written that Jesus had compassion on them and he healed them. First compassion, then healing.
mdvaden,
quote:
TWI is different from The Way. The latter is described as followers of the Lord Jesus Christ for the more abundant life....
"The latter," The Way "is described as followers of the Lord Jesus Christ for the more abundant life...." by whom?
By TWI?
Or by the Word? Isn't that supposed to be the standard of faith and practice for TWI any more - the only standard?
According to the Word, The Way IS the Lord Jesus Christ, not "followers of the Lord Jesus Christ for the more abundant life...."
"Followers of the Lord Jesus Christ" sounds nice, but you've just used the words of the Lord Jesus Christ that he used to define himself to render a definition of an organization in New Knoxville, OH - not a biblical definition.
Quite a difference! TWI replaced the Lord Jesus Christ. Recognize it or not.
quote:
Few problems ever permeate every crevice
1 Corinthians 5:6 Â Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?
Obviously not.
quote:
So if I don't experience it, and can't sit with the mouths of 2 or 3 witnesses in person, I won't believe something for certain. That's the Words standard - at the mouth of two or three witnesses.
I'm not usually so nitpicky, but "That's the Words standard - at the mouth of two or three witnesses?" "That's?" What's "that's" refer to?
Apparently, you think the Word's words, "at the mouth of two or three witnesses" are the same as your words, "if I don't experience it, and can't sit with the mouths of 2 or 3 witnesses in person."
The Word doesn't say that YOU have to experience it for it to be true. And the Word doesn't say that it has to be that you see it in person. You just added those requirements to the Word. Aww, heck, just a liiitle bit of leaven!
Result of this little bit of leaven?
You've got many more than the two or three witnesses that the Word requires, and you just said flat out that you won't believe it anyway; thereby calling not only all the witnesses liars, but doing the opposite of what the Word says you should do - and quoting the Word as your authority for doing so.
I'm afraid that people here have had just a liiitle bit too much of that already. Somehow, I don't think that will fly here.
That's okay; people here understand that there is a whole lot more to adjust to when it comes to considerations of "The Way" than first meets the eye of TWI associates or ex-associates.
mdvaden,
I think it is really cool that you had the experince that you did in Portland despite the fact that there are many super wonderful believers in Portland whose lives would be totally trashed today were it up to TWI and "The Way" [erroneously referred to as the followers of the Lord Jesus Christ - really meaning a "ministry" based in New Knoxville, Ohio box 45871]. Thankfully, their lives weren't up to "The Way" [erroneously referred to as the followers of the Lord Jesus Christ - really meaning a "ministry" based in New Knoxville, Ohio box 45871]; their lives were up to the Way, the Lord Jesus Christ.
But still, I really do think it is cool that you had the experience that you did. Apparently, there are some really pure hearted people still around that can still do godly things in certain areas.
But I seriously disagree that the money thing doesn't matter more than that you feel free to disagree with TWI policy.
Likewise, I disagree with your feeling that as long as the things that people are saying about TWI don't affect your life, you should continue as you are.
That's the same logic that allowed Hitler's doctrine and practice to effect the attrocities that it did. It's like a heroin addict saying that because he is a good hearted fellow, he really doesn't support the drug trade.
A little leaven does leaven the whole lump.
You can't put new wine into old wineskins. Before the wineskin bursts, you will be squeezed out. It's just umm, the truth, oh thou biblical student.
Galatians 4:30 Â Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
That's the same logic that allowed Hitler's doctrine and practice to effect the attrocities that it did.
The thing that allowed that was anyone that carried it out.
I wouldn't even compare the two - but even if it were so, Hiltler's ranks were infiltrated by people that were different.
Some tried to save Jews.
More than one tried to kill Hitler. Are you aware of the bomb that Hitler's officer brought into the meeting, then left it? Hitler lived, but was injured.
So Hilter and his henchmen were not identical to all the people in the ranks and what they individually carried out.
That's why an organization is less in measure than what the "ranks" choose to do.
The one thing that may affect that is if the organization causes a departure where the two have no association.
I don't think there is a comparison.
In the old testament and the new, there are verses where the religious organization - people that were organized, were confronted and changed their mode of operation and believing.
If the wineskin theory were slapped on that or TWI like a catch phrase to make a point, the we may as well toss out the Word of God that shows how entire organized groups can do a turnaround.
So, the wineskin theory, if misapplied is false doctrine.
That specific term is used with precision in a certain context in a point in history. It has uses, but limited with no margin for error.
An appropriate use of old wineskin terminology would be appropriate to trying to squeeze the ways of one Godly administration entirely into another. Like not speaking in tongues in this administration because the old testament Word and days lacked that manifestation on an individual basis.
So it's not TWI's doctrine that steals, kills and destroys.
It's the devil's doctrine that steals kills and destroys.
That's a good subject to view in light of the difference between a counterfiet and genuine. Not referring to TWI, you or the Catholics, etc..
The devil's doctrine kills.
People also died fighing in WW II. Was the command or job wrong?
So the results can't be used to justify or condemn the means.
Is it false because the Word says so? Or is it false because people got consequences? And who is to judge whether or not their complicated thoughts contributed something we cannot see.
That's why I like the level of the Word better than the level of judging denomination.
Have you seen the post I put in the thread about Jesus teaching with words that were not true nor backed by scripture?
Now I forget what thread it was in. Seems it was in a PFAL related one. But I was curious how people would have talked about or responded to Jesus teaching phrases that were false and unbiblical to get people to rise up in knowledge.
So about Jesus, he also maintained and protected and used the system he was in for a long time.
What's the response to Jesus Christ for operating that principle?
What's the response to Samuel, or even his mother for handing over to that particular spiritual household.
Bigger subject. And most people just nibble at what they think are the safe and useful parts of this kind of stuff.
I just never see them bring those verses and a lot more into the picture. There is no subject we see that is new. What's interesting is how far into the depths the discussions go. What verses get included? What verses get avoided?
I'm not going to say it's right or wrong, or how much I agree with or not.
For example, I can't criticize the Catholic church, because honestly, I have not stepped foot in their door. For all I know, they can be teaching the truth and changed. I doubt it, but yet, I would put myself in a very embarrassing situation to criticize them. Some one might ask me "M_ario, why do say that about them?" And I, would stutter and say, you're right. I don't like them, or go where they are at. But to be honest and real, I have no idea what they are teaching currently.
I mean, if someone has a seat in there to witness, or tape recorded teachings, then groovy. I guess they heard enough to form an opinion.
If not - then it's reasonalble to acknowledge lack of awareness about TWI doctrine and that you just disagree.
I'm with excy I could give a rat's patootie about what "they" think...I'll criticize any damn thing I have a mind to... vpw sure as hell did, didn't he?????????
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ex10
Just a thought, but I think alot of "ministering" to people has to do with recognizing need, and then freely giving of oneself or one's resources to satisfy that need in another, in a situation, whatever.
I think a big problem entered in when those who had "need" were viewed as somehow "not believing." Or when incredibly tragic events occured, and somehow it was the person's "fault," "unrenewed mind," "lack of believing," "spiritual weakness," ad infinitum. Somehow the mindset was one of codemnation, instead of mercy and kindness.
Somehow way doctrine bred that kind of poisonous subculture. I think it had to do with getting rid of the cross, myself. But, we've had this conversation at the cafe before.
:D-->
As always, just my opinion and experience.
;)-->
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mdvaden
Well...had to add this edit...I'm referring here to UncleHairy's post a bit ago. I keep forgetting a post can pop between. I'll need to use the quote things more.
Well, since TWI is not full to capacity - pletho - of false teachers, nor was pletho with false teachers, we can discount many people out of that equation.
TWI is different from The Way. The latter is described as followers of the Lord Jesus Christ for the more abundant life....
You identified the "TWI", which focuses on 3 individual members, the primary number of members at any time. Possibly inclusive are employees if we take that into account.
One primary member I was taught by was Dr. Wierwille. Another member I met with in person and exchanged correspondence with was Dr. Donald Wierwille. I never found contamination in that man's ministry that I think God would be ashamed of.
So, rather than focus on an entire group of members, I'd find it safer to specifically identify the exact one's that fit the mold.
Suppose a plane has 300 passengers. If 299 are terrorists, was that a flight of terrorists? I believe it's best to say the plane had 299 terrorists on it.
Suppose it had 1 terrorist. Was that a flight of terrorists. Not in my book. I'd say it was a flight with 1 terrorist on it.
So for me, I can't grasp the concept of a general one label fits all.
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Nottawayfer
MDV,
By chance, have you read any of the things shared by people who were hurt by many of the leaders of the way? I encourage you to read the following link of someone's life in the way.
http://gscafe.com/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/3...552/m/120100388
Also, I left AFTER lcm was ousted (or whatever they call his leaving) because of micromanaging nazis. There is a problem in the structure of the way. Maybe it's not so apparent in your nick of the woods, but it is in a lot of other woods. I worked at HQ for 5 years (left in 2001), and my time there was not the "best". I felt like a used rag when I left that place.
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mdvaden
Wafer Not...
In over 20 years, I, as others have probably heard every version of a calamity that could be described.
Just as some people fabricated myth about me, it could be done in reverse. So if I don't experience it, and can't sit with the mouths of 2 or 3 witnesses in person, I won't believe something for certain. That's the Words standard - at the mouth of two or three witnesses. And if it's true, but old news, it may be relevant or not.
But one thing you wrote has me curious...really curious. Okay, we can agree, that many people are gone from TWI. Many have had their reasons or made a choice to leave.
Anyone reading this...anyone...was there a point on staff at TWI or in the TWI fellowship structure that (when) you truly felt blessed? Was there a time when you felt nurtured? Loved? Encouraged?
Do you believe it was a "system" that changed it for you?
And, you don't have to answer this, but did you dish out the negatives that you think you were the recipient of?
Few problems ever permeate every crevice. Did you feel you noticed a difference where percieved problems ended as far as progression from one person to another? One department to another?
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GrouchoMarxJr
Of course some of the folks in twi had nobel intentions and caring hearts, other did not. The bottom line was that the foundation of twi was doctrinally flawed. Whoever taught the wrong doctrine, contributed nothing to my Christian education. The line of demarcation is that many of the top leaders became corrupt and INTENDED harmful deceptions on people. Those are the ones that I hold responsible. Who were they? Veepee Wierwille for one, lc Martindale for another. From these two, many "clones" were produced...how about evil associations corrupt good morals...or a little leaven, etc etc. I cannot name the name of every false teacher and abuser of God's people...the testamonies of those here at GS could easily name names of most of the top leaders of twi...but I think the point is, if anyone was truly following the Lord Jesus, they departed from twi.
It was a corrupt system. Built on wrong doctrine and run by dishonest and abusive men. I commend those who genuinely followed the Lord in their ministering to people...in spite of twi.
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rascal
We are here mdvaden, we are real flesh and blood people *present* behind these screens sharing our experiences....honest...lol. Many of us actually knew each other in twi, many have met in person since departure. Liars are usually readily apparent.
No, not all involved in twi were evil........heck, just look at the wonderfull folks here..... even some former leaders!
It takes a lot of courage to take an honest look at the lives of your brothers and sisters devistated by evil men, and yes vpw and lcm were two of the biggest villains.
There are many of us here who have experienced the evil personally, there are those of us here who have had family members and loved ones damaged directly at the hands of these men.
M.D. Vaden, you strike me as an honorable person, I understand that you believe that you are defending the *truth* and the *teachers* of the *truth*.
What is hard is that you have to call so very many of us liars to do so.
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oldiesman
M.D.V.:
One point to bear in mind that helps me being here is that some folks suffer from an incurable Personality Disorder disease called "I Can't Stop Thinking and Speaking Evil About TWI and the BOT"
Once you know who these folks are, it's easier to cope with being here.
Thanks for sharing...please continue.
:)-->
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outandabout
I was at a Family Camp in 1974 near Rye, New York.
I had a pain in my abdomen and I asked someone to minister to me, and they prayed for what was going on. Then, just to be sure, I asked a second person to minister to me. They prayed for the same thing. Well, that wasn't enough so I asked a THIRD person. (Jan Jesse, I think)
When she ministered to me, she said that the cause was gone and what was left was only symptoms. It was like God said, "Cut it out, you're healed already!"
So, I do believe that we are capable of ministering healing to others and of receiving healing. I had other instances of people ministering to me and hitting the nail right on the head. I can think of at least five instances I experienced like that off the top of my head.
But I have given up trying to anyalyze why or when or if. I just know it can happen. And I still minister sometimes and receive the same.
When Belle said in a post farther above, that by the 90's people wouldn't and couldn't minister healing, to me that is one more example of how TWI got totally ripped off by the Devil.
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Ham
That's the main reason I left, or more properly, refused to jump through any more hoops or conditions in order to be involved. No power left there. Everything seemed so carnal to me- the forever never ending scheduling, cleaning, going here, going there- meetings and more meetings- all with no profit. More and more "attention to details". No "ministering".
The larger meetings seemed artificial to me- like a stupid religious infomercial. Our function turned from sharing and/or caring to that of a carnival barker. My opinion- people more and more had to be conned into taking the classes, and they did not stick around da ministry after (or even if) they finished it.
And it got worse after I was gone. More scheduling, including approval from your overseers- more fleshly ordinances. No power or spirit anymore- gotta do something I guess.
A lot of the corps were sincere before- really wanted to help. They evolved into meddlers and troublers. Obviously, since you were not successfull in analyzing every fleshly detail in life, they were the answer.. oh well.
Toward the end of it all, I was not really impressed with Loy's "handling" of scripture. His teachings and material seemed to reek of legalism- at least to me. The rise and expansion book- way too much- too many details, too much stuff to "do" and not "believe". "Lets see, am I doing this, and that, and that..." Turned from grace and love into law. No wonder we couldn't minister any more.
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rascal
....and SOME people can`t seem to make their own point without taking a swipe at other posters....it is generally regarded as R.M.F.P.A.W. TWI ...(residual meanness from past association with twi).
Once you know who THESE folks are lol, it is easier to cope with their unrelenting attacks on our veracity and understand their unreasonable need to defend evil at all cost....
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Belle
MDVaden, I’d like to take a stab at some of your questions and comments, if I may. I’ll preface my comments by letting you know that I have been uninvolved with TWI for less than a year. I also have been divorced for less than a year. Much of this is due to the suggestion from the Region Coordinator and the local Way Corps to my ex-husband because I decided to no longer attend TWI functions. (BTW, the Region Coordinator’s wife is one of the leaders who counseled some of the women abused by Craig Martindale and did nothing to stop him.)
were grand days of joy….with great fruit. Can you honestly say that today, MDVaden? I couldn’t have said anything like that honestly in the past ten years. Many things we did want to do for fun were squashed by local leadership because they would have violated some unspoken “rule†of TWI. I realize things are different in each area, but this is how it was in my area and it was not fun.
With all due respect, I am going to disagree with you and UH on this one. I did not CHOOSE to be confused. I was looking for answers which is how I ended up at TWI. I had gotten many answers from my church growing up, but I had moved away from home AND I had more questions. The people I met said they had answers.
I took those answers and the keys you mentioned on another thread and applied them. I found that some of the things TWI was teaching (from HQ down to the twig level) were incorrect according to what I found. I was given such a song and dance by the household fellowship coordinator up to the Way Corps over the area that it wasn’t even funny. I was told by some that I was right and others told me I was right, but that the problem was with me. TWI is still teaching incorrect doctrine despite my attempts and the attempts of others on this board, to show them a more accurate way.
So, no. I did not choose to be confused and I did not accept something off kilter. I did follow proper TWI protocol and saw nothing change despite my efforts.
Are the teachings of TWI at the Sunday services not approved of first by Rosalie and Donna anymore? Do they not have to conform to TWI doctrine? Is one free to teach something that is truly accurate but not in line with what TWI teaches?
The three individual members dictate what goes into the Way Magazine, into the verses of the songs, into the teachings that are allowed all throughout TWI. Therefore, a teacher in TWI teaching and adhering to TWI doctrine IS a false teacher. A leader in TWI who labeled some people as mark & avoid because they wouldn’t sell their homes in the 90’s is a false teacher. IMO, the people who ARE NOT false teachers have left TWI or are floundering desperately trying to affect change because they see the problems.
LCM did sit with the mouths of more than two or three witnesses in person and do you know what happened to them? They were kicked out of TWI and had to file a lawsuit to get TWI to listen to them. Do you know who was there when he was confronted? Your president and her personal assistant as well as others who are still in charge and making command decisions for your ministry. I consider it very relevant that past behavior is a pretty darn good indication of present and future behavior, especially when those with bad past records refuse to apologize or even admit to having done some of the things court documents can prove by their own mouth.
Honestly, MDVaden, the times I felt truly blessed, loved, nurtured and encouraged were few and far between. Looking back it was probably my first six months to year of being involved with TWI. After that time it became a constant struggle to be good enough and to attend every meeting or have a darn good excuse for not being there because “I didn’t feel like it†wouldn’t cut it. I took four years of begging to be removed from assistant fellowship coordinator status and a “confrontation†session for us to finally have relief from that time and pressure requirement.
An organization is only as good as it’s people. A chain is only as strong as its weakest link. It’s the Word, not the people. The Word, The Word and nothing but The Word (as long as it’s what TWI teaches that The Word is).
The people attending fellowships are sweet, kind lambs and they are being led and deceived by wolves in sheep’s clothing. Is it the people or is it The Word? If it’s The Word then it should be The Word correctly divided and the people should be willing to change when they find they have been teaching The Word incorrectly.
If 1/100 th of the things you read here on Gspot are true (and I believe much more than that is true) then the people leading TWI are worse than Eli and his sons and we aren’t limited in our choices of where to worship like the people in Eli’s area were. The wise and prudent thing to do, imo, is find where people speak, act, live and teach the rightly divided Word. Where it’s okay to ask questions. Where you can make your own choices and do not have to worry about how your actions may be construed. Where all leadership sets the example and is held accountable to the people of the congregation. Where the books and finances are an open book to the congregation since that is their money.
I respect you, MDVaden. Kudos to you! I hope you stick around and I hope you find what you’re looking for here.
GALEN:
I took cookies to our new neighbors and introduced myself.
I baked and brought yummy cheeseballs and hot coffee to a dog competition this week-end because many people were camping out and did not have access to these kinds of goodies. I also volunteered my time to help in quite a few ways because they were short-handed.
I volunteer my database skills for free to a group that desperately needed my help.
I’ve stopped on the side of the road to loan my cell phone or a ride to people who have been broken down several times in the past few months. I’ve met some really nice, neat people this way.
I type my neighbor's chuch group agenda and other paperwork each week for her.
Do these count?
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Oakspear
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mdvaden
I'm breaking from estimates and arborist reports for a few moments...so I'll hit on one piece of the pie for now:
In my sphere of exposure - Yes, for a fact. (meaning I can today say that about that point in time then).
There is TWI technically 3 members with hired staff, legally recognized. Anyone else associated is also referred to as TWI. The two are not identical Word and spiritually wise. There is overlap in a way of speaking, whether now or at one point in time.
It's available for sections of the body of Christ with or without a legal entity organization to walk the Word and manifest holy spirit.
So - aside from any good or bad that I did not know about in the administrative part of TWI - my sphere of recognition and influence was the west branch of Portland, Oregon.
Fellowship was sweet. We talked about the Word for hours. I was never told to study, if anything, me and others would have to be told to study less because we loved reading the Word so much. People regularly came to fellowship, parties and restaurants and had fun. No one was made to stay. Some people visited once. Many hung out with us. Usually - if outside criticism did not affect new people, they like having a good time.
I loved doing setup and helping with classes. It was a blast. And I'm not the only one.
One of the first fellowships I was in grew so fast, that I volunteered to break off and coordinate. Within a year or so, we split into three because of the new people that came. We were all friends and lived life together.
It was positive, refreshing and we had limited negative exposure to many things that may or may not have existed.
NOW...In the old testament...Psalms I recall, David makes a statement about recalling the greatness of good times and fellowship of believers in an earlier time.
So I know that'a at least one man of God that the Word displays as relishing in a known and preserved thought of past fruitful fellowship.
EDIT TO ADD: Now today, I don't think it's the same overall. But, what I realize, is that any group of likeminded believers (EVEN WITHIN TWI) can function as fruitfully and prosperously if they make the decision to do so.
I have no legal membership nor employment papers with the Way. So I, and any other person in our fellowship can function freely according to the written word, the manifestations and what we desre to do. No one is stopping me.
Right now, Portland at least, since that's my area of awareness, is far different from how some people paint TWI to be.
Now, if there is religion - that's that person's fault.
Take finances. I outwardly speak my mind on that. Guess who is still here? Me.
I talk about finances with other believers - maybe a bit different. It's not exactly being done in a closet. Guess who is still here? Us.
One key - if we believe different in an area, we are not antagonistic about it. Maybe some people will need several years to come around to a concept. So why do damage if it's avoidable. Look at healing. God can enable any healing. Yet some people may go for years without getting healed. Why? I don't know. But no sense to beat them over the head about what they have difficulty believing.
And like I said, if any decide to be religious, but don't persecute me, how can I spread bitter words?
My fellowship coordinator knows full well I work the word different in finances and a few other things, but we are likeminded on many, many things like:
a. when I teach, I don't press into an area that is different. and not because I'm pressured to. I guarantee you, if I wanted to teach something newly different this week, I'd go ahead and do it. the verses I pick are entirely my choice. and I am teaching this week, as several times this year.
b. what we agree on we enjoy.
c. what we differ on, we don't blackball or start a campaign against each other.
So, honestly, it's not the way "I" would like it, but it's a myriad of levels better than the picture painted by people that have no view of the scenery.
A blind man can't paint the grand canyon or blade of grass he can't see. Niether can someone evaluate and explain about people's lives of which they have no immediate knowledge; the behavior of which they cannot observe change or continuance.
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Tom
Ex10,
That's where it is, Ex. I think you nailed it; I think of the many times that it is written that Jesus had compassion on them and he healed them. First compassion, then healing.
mdvaden,
"The latter," The Way "is described as followers of the Lord Jesus Christ for the more abundant life...." by whom?
By TWI?
Or by the Word? Isn't that supposed to be the standard of faith and practice for TWI any more - the only standard?
According to the Word, The Way IS the Lord Jesus Christ, not "followers of the Lord Jesus Christ for the more abundant life...."
"Followers of the Lord Jesus Christ" sounds nice, but you've just used the words of the Lord Jesus Christ that he used to define himself to render a definition of an organization in New Knoxville, OH - not a biblical definition.
Quite a difference! TWI replaced the Lord Jesus Christ. Recognize it or not.
1 Corinthians 5:6 Â Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?
Obviously not.
I'm not usually so nitpicky, but "That's the Words standard - at the mouth of two or three witnesses?" "That's?" What's "that's" refer to?
Apparently, you think the Word's words, "at the mouth of two or three witnesses" are the same as your words, "if I don't experience it, and can't sit with the mouths of 2 or 3 witnesses in person."
The Word doesn't say that YOU have to experience it for it to be true. And the Word doesn't say that it has to be that you see it in person. You just added those requirements to the Word. Aww, heck, just a liiitle bit of leaven!
Result of this little bit of leaven?
You've got many more than the two or three witnesses that the Word requires, and you just said flat out that you won't believe it anyway; thereby calling not only all the witnesses liars, but doing the opposite of what the Word says you should do - and quoting the Word as your authority for doing so.
I'm afraid that people here have had just a liiitle bit too much of that already. Somehow, I don't think that will fly here.
That's okay; people here understand that there is a whole lot more to adjust to when it comes to considerations of "The Way" than first meets the eye of TWI associates or ex-associates.
mdvaden,
I think it is really cool that you had the experince that you did in Portland despite the fact that there are many super wonderful believers in Portland whose lives would be totally trashed today were it up to TWI and "The Way" [erroneously referred to as the followers of the Lord Jesus Christ - really meaning a "ministry" based in New Knoxville, Ohio box 45871]. Thankfully, their lives weren't up to "The Way" [erroneously referred to as the followers of the Lord Jesus Christ - really meaning a "ministry" based in New Knoxville, Ohio box 45871]; their lives were up to the Way, the Lord Jesus Christ.
But still, I really do think it is cool that you had the experience that you did. Apparently, there are some really pure hearted people still around that can still do godly things in certain areas.
But I seriously disagree that the money thing doesn't matter more than that you feel free to disagree with TWI policy.
Likewise, I disagree with your feeling that as long as the things that people are saying about TWI don't affect your life, you should continue as you are.
That's the same logic that allowed Hitler's doctrine and practice to effect the attrocities that it did. It's like a heroin addict saying that because he is a good hearted fellow, he really doesn't support the drug trade.
A little leaven does leaven the whole lump.
You can't put new wine into old wineskins. Before the wineskin bursts, you will be squeezed out. It's just umm, the truth, oh thou biblical student.
Galatians 4:30 Â Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
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mdvaden
The thing that allowed that was anyone that carried it out.
I wouldn't even compare the two - but even if it were so, Hiltler's ranks were infiltrated by people that were different.
Some tried to save Jews.
More than one tried to kill Hitler. Are you aware of the bomb that Hitler's officer brought into the meeting, then left it? Hitler lived, but was injured.
So Hilter and his henchmen were not identical to all the people in the ranks and what they individually carried out.
That's why an organization is less in measure than what the "ranks" choose to do.
The one thing that may affect that is if the organization causes a departure where the two have no association.
I don't think there is a comparison.
In the old testament and the new, there are verses where the religious organization - people that were organized, were confronted and changed their mode of operation and believing.
If the wineskin theory were slapped on that or TWI like a catch phrase to make a point, the we may as well toss out the Word of God that shows how entire organized groups can do a turnaround.
So, the wineskin theory, if misapplied is false doctrine.
That specific term is used with precision in a certain context in a point in history. It has uses, but limited with no margin for error.
An appropriate use of old wineskin terminology would be appropriate to trying to squeeze the ways of one Godly administration entirely into another. Like not speaking in tongues in this administration because the old testament Word and days lacked that manifestation on an individual basis.
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rascal
People were hurt, people died by adherance to twi doctrine, and abuse from it`s top leaders.
By supporting/participating in twi, it could be argued that one is turning a blind eye to the suffering of our brothers and sisters in Christ.
That is where the parallell between twi and hitler is aplicable.
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mdvaden
Yes, rascal...
Good train of thought to progress on.
People died now, during and before anyone in TWI.
So it's not TWI's doctrine that steals, kills and destroys.
It's the devil's doctrine that steals kills and destroys.
That's a good subject to view in light of the difference between a counterfiet and genuine. Not referring to TWI, you or the Catholics, etc..
The devil's doctrine kills.
People also died fighing in WW II. Was the command or job wrong?
So the results can't be used to justify or condemn the means.
Is it false because the Word says so? Or is it false because people got consequences? And who is to judge whether or not their complicated thoughts contributed something we cannot see.
That's why I like the level of the Word better than the level of judging denomination.
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Tom
Those who allowed that were the righteous people who didn't speak out against it when they could have.
Evil people don't determine things.
Righteous people do.
Evil persists because righteous people punk out.
They don't do the one thing that they are called to do - speak the truth in love.
If enough people (many fewer than the evil - but enough)would speak the truth, evil would have to back up.
If people had made a stand against Hitler earlier, the atrocities never would have happened - Hitler or no Hitler.
The righteous hand it over. They lose by default. They don't open their mouths and speak the truth because...
Ah, yes, we must protect the system.
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mdvaden
Have you seen the post I put in the thread about Jesus teaching with words that were not true nor backed by scripture?
Now I forget what thread it was in. Seems it was in a PFAL related one. But I was curious how people would have talked about or responded to Jesus teaching phrases that were false and unbiblical to get people to rise up in knowledge.
So about Jesus, he also maintained and protected and used the system he was in for a long time.
What's the response to Jesus Christ for operating that principle?
What's the response to Samuel, or even his mother for handing over to that particular spiritual household.
Bigger subject. And most people just nibble at what they think are the safe and useful parts of this kind of stuff.
I just never see them bring those verses and a lot more into the picture. There is no subject we see that is new. What's interesting is how far into the depths the discussions go. What verses get included? What verses get avoided?
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excathedra
and what does WW II have to do with anything ?
and "their" complicated thoughts contributing to something we cannot see ?
you lost me there too
but you have a way with words, i'll give you that
:)-->
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mdvaden
You tell me.
Today, what is being taught in TWI?
I'm not going to say it's right or wrong, or how much I agree with or not.
For example, I can't criticize the Catholic church, because honestly, I have not stepped foot in their door. For all I know, they can be teaching the truth and changed. I doubt it, but yet, I would put myself in a very embarrassing situation to criticize them. Some one might ask me "M_ario, why do say that about them?" And I, would stutter and say, you're right. I don't like them, or go where they are at. But to be honest and real, I have no idea what they are teaching currently.
I mean, if someone has a seat in there to witness, or tape recorded teachings, then groovy. I guess they heard enough to form an opinion.
If not - then it's reasonalble to acknowledge lack of awareness about TWI doctrine and that you just disagree.
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excathedra
i'm not the least bit embarrassed to say before god and anyone that i'm finished with the TWI and the catholic church
and if and when i feel like it, i say why
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alfakat
I'm with excy I could give a rat's patootie about what "they" think...I'll criticize any damn thing I have a mind to... vpw sure as hell did, didn't he?????????
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ex10
And here we go again.....
:D-->
Somehow I feel like this thread might turn into a rerun.
I guess reruns are a necessary evil tho, if one happened to be out of the loop the first 100 times around.
-->
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