I think it was 90's when you had to stop offering to minister to people--you could only offer to pray for them since you couldn't know ahead of time if you were going to get heavy revy
I think it was 90's when you had to stop offering to minister to people--you could only offer to pray for them since you couldn't know ahead of time if you were going to get heavy revy
The real reason being, no one in TWI in the 90's was getting revelation and if they did they would have had to run it by their leadership before even offering to minister. Not to mention the fact that they only taught us about devil spirits, terrible consequences of leaving "the household", abundant sharing and witnessing. There was no teaching about actually ministering to people that I can remember. Come to think of it, I don't think there was the whole time I was in TWI, which would have been in the 90's. I could be wrong and YMMV based on where you were located.
not every problem in life is solved by throwing bible verses at it.
In fact, my experience has been that very few problems in life are solved by reading the bible more, speaking in tongues more, following the "rules" more, as in going to church more, attending more meetings, whatever.
Yeah, white dove, I learned it first in Topeka.
Hello. life is way more complicated than pat answers. Being there, and doing whatever it takes to be there for someone includes a much greater repetoire than we were ever exposed to in the cult.
. life is way more complicated than pat answers. Being there, and doing whatever it takes to be there for someone includes a much greater repetoire than we were ever exposed to in the cult.
Your mileage may differ. :)-->
2nd morning in a row I woke up and read what you said in this thread ex10. IMO You are hitting the nail right on the head. :)-->
I know we can minister better since leaving that little cult. We can throw more than bible verses at them. If I said to a friend of mine today. "Just renew your mind" I would get some awfully strange looks. Since my friends around here are not bible thumpers. It takes a lot of thought and caring to help someone.
The bible is never a substitute for a real, flesh and blood relationship, with a living person.
Jesus was/is flesh and blood too.
Unfortunately, our former church replaced him with words, ie pat answers, pithy (or not so pithy) sayings with a particular spin at that. :)--> and rules and regs devoid of any kind of "apiriutality."
It's a wonderful world outside of the cacoon of Way doctrine and (warped) practice. :D-->
Here is something that I just posted somewhere else that seems to me to fit here also:
Thanks a lot for the scratch.
Quote:
How do I define Christian? How about anyone who considers Jesus as Lord/Savior/Son of God?
So, then am I right in assuming that since you don't consider yourself a Christian, that you don't consider Jesus to be Lord, Savior, or Son of God?
Just making sure.
Quote:
...who am I to set up standards to judge anyone's authenticity?
Of course, the classic TWI answer would be you ["who am I"] would not be doing the judging, the Word would be. Actually, this arguably would be Jesus' answer to the same question.
John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
Of course that brings us back to what is a Christian, but one would think that, of all people, Christ would know what a Christian is - and even his reasoning was I'm not judging, the Word is.
I agree with Jesus on that reasoning.
But, of course, so do the "Trintarians and Unitarians, those who believe that every syllable of the bible was put in place by God and those who believe that the bible is purely the work of men, and all opinions in between." So, while I completely agree with Jesus thinking on this, neither my agreement nor Jesus' thinking stated above help us mitigate the crossfire involved in the diverse field of play of "Trintarians and Unitarians, those who believe that every syllable of the bible was put in place by God and those who believe that the bible is purely the work of men, and all opinions in between."
So, let's step outside of the box and look at what's going on in the box from the outside.
A rose by any other name... But that doesn't mean that any other thing were it called a rose would be one. A rose is what it is regardless of what we call it.
And so is everything else.
To go beyond that is to make too big a deal about terminology to the loss of the realization of the nature of things, candor, and truth. Just as we can speak and write our language without knowing the names of the parts of speech, so we can love and react to our true natures without knowing the names of the states of our natures. Btw, so also we can use and respond to figurative language witout knowing the names of the figures.
Nomenclature, in any study, is a convenience for purposes of classification and discussion.
Here lies the pivitol point in our discussion and the reason, the necessity I believe, to consider the bible in a discussion of what a Christian is. I don't think it is a matter of whether the bible is literal or figurative as much as it is a matter of whether or not the bible has integrity.
For figurative language is a lot more precise than modern consideration gives it credit for, and literal language is a lot less precise than people suppose. Figurative language can shame literal language in its ability to communicate living truth, and literal language is as woefully deficient to communicate sound thinking as the mind behind the mouth that speaks it.
That's because all language interprets itself in its context - as does everything else in life.
Language is generally relatively (relative to a consideration that there is any kind of absolute truth concerning the nature of things) imprecise. Many words have multiple meanings. Even supposedly precise dictionary meanings will vary somewhat with each usage depending upon its context. Language is just a fluid thing over time and circumstances. Theoretically, the more we know about something - historically, socially - demographically - the more understanding we will have of a thing.
But "everything" is a big field to play in. Even people with a broad scope of knowledge will have their perspective skewed in one direction or another somewhat, and nobody knows it all.
The bible says that God has purified language.
Psalms 12:6 The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
In a furnace of earth - hymph, that's curious. I believe that earth element carries over in the analogy. I my life, God has done a remarkable job of purifying the meaning of his communications to me in the context of my life. IN MY LIFE, I can't get around his words to me.
I think God does that. Its a God thing, a thing God does in his communicating with people.
And likewise I think his word is like that. Actually, I think it IS that - just in other people's lives. That's God's integrity interacting with our lives.
I've been awed by word studies. I've been awed by going back to the first usage of things in the bible. I don't find that the bible always interpretes itself that way, the way that TWI taught it would, but I find that it does it too many times to be coincidence.
So what? I find the Word of God has integrity, but the bible is not THE WORD OF GOD with a capital blah, blah, blah. I believe there are other parts of the Word of God that are not in the bible.
Is everything in the bible the Word of God? I mean besides corruption over the years. I think so. The order of it? I'm not so sure. I'm sort of overwhelmed by the seven church epistles and their order.
I'd like to know more about the bible, the canon, & so forth.
But to tell you the truth, for the present time, there are other things I'm more into.
The sermon on the mount is just absolutely amazing me. I've been over it I don't know how many times in the last month or so. Every time I read it or listen to it or discuss its truths, it balances my life and centers it in God so that the issues of my life outward flow out from God.
There's this guy at work. Umm, his brother was murdered a couple of years ago. He got cancer and it - I don't know the word, starts with "M," spread through his body. He was given so many months. I ministered to him and healed him and his health immediately did a 180.
I know that for his healing to stick, he has to change the base of his life from the darkness that invaded his heart and family as a result of the murder to what it means to be a Christian. I don't pretend to comprehensive knowledge of Cancer and its cure, but these things I know.
So, I'm teaching him Galatians about freedom from the law and Ephesians about the beauty of the organism that is the body of Christ with our vital lives in the spirit together as members in particular.
Its coming alive with him and some others at work and their families. To me that's what it means to be a Christian. Does it have anything to do with how literally I take the bible or whether or not I believe the bible is "God-breathed?"
No.
Yes.
Somewhat - in certain regards.
But what really matters is getting God to speak to us - to get his Word to us - right here - what we need - right now - with power - to us - to be interpreted in the context of our lives.
The bible - figures in. Its always - well many times - there. But it is not the thing and no one thinks it is.
Its not an organized church thing. We've all gone outside the camp to where the lamb is - to where he was sacrificed.
Thank you, Tom. That is kind of where I am at right now. I know that I know -- that I know only in part but then...when we have all that He has now, then i will know in full. I am weary of the whole have to know everything in every detail approach...we CANNOT know it all, or even very much at all, at times, it seems. But I have come to Him and that is more than knowing the "ALL" of knowing it all....
You're quite welcome, alfakat. Isn't there something very freeing in not knowing it all - and not having to? Results don't depend on you and your knowledge.
I'm glad to see so many responses to this thread...Many times we read about the abuses of twi, but seldom is it discussed within the context of "ministering"...The contrast between the intentions to help vs. what actually happened. Had I been indifferent towards people, it would have been difficult enough to watch the abuses...but to watch the abuses when my heart was to do the exact opposite...was enough for me to walk away.
In twi, the focus was not really on the person who had a need...it was on the "mighty minister", who, while dancing around in tights, would grace us with his presence as he pontificated and spit upon us all.
Oooooh, Ahhhhh...went the crowds, as the athelete of the spirit, the mighty minister, the center of attention...would wave his over the crowd...
Of course the guy who quietly sat in the back...the guy who was sick and in need went home without being noticed or without being healed...taking with him, a new found guilt...he was now guilty of NOT BELIEVING for his own deliverance. The mighty minister had said so...
Twi had everything assbackwards. They promised a magic show but only came up with smoke and mirrors...and we all saw through it eventually...or at least most of us did...(sorry about that Bob Moneyhands)...When they failed to deliver the goods, they institutionalized and ritualized the process. When one considers the egos that were involved with the twi leadership, is it any wonder that Christ was absent?
when I raised my children they "thought as a child would" . As grown adults they have their own opinons ideals and life styles that belongs to them as individuals , (they no longer have a need to do and say as I the parent would) they "no longer think as a child", under my thoughts and control and responsibility. I was in a sense like God to them when they were children to grow up means to accept the real God as their Father and creator.
As christians we are to grow up into what christ set as His only begotten Son.... that means we no longer should be under a teacher or school of thought ( as a child still learning would). Our parent is God the Father, and our teacher is the Lord Jesus christ now, as adults each individual and seperate in the family of God.
folks in twi never grew as persons never grew to know Christ as their leader in life because I feel it is so much easier to deal with people when they have to obey and "be meek" , it is easier to say to a child here now you must put on your socks and pants go to school and do this and that because I am responsible for you and you have NO choice! Than to negotiate or feel the work of genuine relationships built on love and respect for one another.
Our Father God likes the grown up relationship He has with his creation , he has no need for co-dependacy or ego or power trips , He can meet our needs but frankly most human adults can meet their own needs christian or not , so it is all about trusting HIm and His plan for mankind and worshipping and loving HIM as God with His son Jesus christ.
When we minister is it truly about loving that person and the Lord directing the path we all walk in life? or is it some magic performed becasuse we "have the power" our own self and give God almighty the less than position ?
now I can truly see how many can be fooled, christians like to think they are special and more powerful than the devil or any mere human being alive, that they are called and "have ministries that enable them to perform special and unique tasks for God. Ego lives in a dream world of tasks completed.
But in the end it is God wh has performed from the very beginning to save His own dream of having a family and the ONLY one capable of completing a task well done is Jesus christ! If we are so able to defeat the devil HELLO what are we still doing here on earth then? we have zero pwoer against evil forces and that is why we can call on the HOLY name of Jesus christ to get the job done. But we are not children we are not told what to do by God as a dictator who takes responsibility and control for us we are to be adults and make our own choices no matter how much our Father may groan and cry over what we chose to do in life. He will always keep our home safe and a place to go to when we learn as Jesus guides our direction and we decide maybe He did do it right for all of us and truly thank God for it.
I see many into bible worship as well which is another issue all together.
that is pure power and control over another.
Can you ask a one year old child to drive the car to the store and pick up a gallon of milk for ya ?
no how stupid right? but how about if you said to that child of one year of age he was worthless and to be ashamed because he could not do it ? that he was doomed as a failure in His fathers eye. allowing quicker and more total control of a shattered person.
BUT that baby will one day also be able to drive and he will remember the shame and less than feelings you instilled in him when he was not yet grown enough to understand, he was not yet grown enough to fullfill YOUR needs. resentment builds within , and He turns to the real Authority in life that allows him to succeed without any conditions or control in his life, God almighty and the saving grace of the Lord Jesus Christ.
When they failed to deliver the goods, they institutionalized and ritualized the process
Hmm, I've been thinking for a long time now that it worked the other way around - that when they institutionalized and ritualized the process, that's when they failed to deliver the goods.
I figure that when VP didn't trust Jesus to be the head of the body, he used instruments of institution to centralize control in his own hands. The "joints and bands" through which the head, Jesus Christ, ministered [now that's true ministering] nourishment to the body were replaced by the "guidelines" of the Way Tree. These "guidelines," of course, were then presented as an aspect of doctrine, introducing legalistic requirements into the body.
Jesus taught his disciples to take heed and to be beware of this "leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees" which was "the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees," to beware of it.
We have to beware of this doctrine because, like leaven, it starts little, and, like leaven, it leavens the whole lump.
Likewise, legalistic requirements were introduced into the body as "guidelines," but "This persuasion doesn't come from him that called you [us]. A little leaven leavens the whole lump." Galatians 5:8&9
Over time, as the whole lump was leavened, these "guidelines" became more & more absolute control over our flesh.
The other side of this legalistic control was the sexual immorality which some gloried in. 1 Corinthians 5:6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven (talking about fornication) leaveneth the whole lump? The legalism and the lack of sexual restraint – this is the hypocrisy involved in the leavening process. Luke 12:1 … first of all, Beware ye of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy.
This process continued in TWI until the whole became like the "malice and wickedness" with which Egypt cruelly ruled over the children of Israel, slaves from which to extract every ounce of effort with less and less to work with.
So, what was the solution? 1 Corinthians 5:7 ¶Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us:
While they were purging us out, we were supposed to be purging them out. Sarah had the right idea when she said to get rid of the bondwoman for she wouldn't be heir with the freewoman, but would persecute her.
And we are directed to be new in the Passover sacrifice - the cross that Wierwille hated and Martindale hated even more.
Because in the sacrifice of Jesus with his blood on the doorway to our hearts, the evil one is made to pass over our families. The malice and wickedness of the oppressor has no access. There is no ego of man that can maintain face in the face of him who had to have his own face torn beyond recognition to make up for our inability to put on a face worth taking a picture of to put into a scrapbook. There is no class division beyond his suffering.
On the contrary, THAT's where the healing takes place. It is as entirely appropriate that Jesus' sacrifice as our Passover should be mentioned in a thread about Ministering to people??? and TWI as it is that it should be mentioned in 1 Corinthians in the context of oppression and wickedness.
There is another really cool thing about leaven. The kingdom of God is like leaven “which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.â€
The kingdom of God was hidden in us until our whole becomes leavened.
Hypocrisy shall end “for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; neither hid, that shall not be known.â€
The lump that was TWI is known.
The lump that is the body of Christ is still being leavened, becoming the bread of life.
Hmm, I've been thinking for a long time now that it worked the other way around - that when they institutionalized and ritualized the process, that's when they failed to deliver the goods.
Tom, that is one of the best posts I think I've read here. I agree wholeheartedly with your quote above!
They seem to have gotten greedy and egotistical enjoying bragging on the wonderful things that were taking place and instead of giving God the glory, they started taking the glory for themselves and, in their greed, set up rules that they thought would increase things to brag about.
Jesus taught his disciples to take heed and to be beware of this "leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees" which was "the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees," to beware of it....We have to beware of this doctrine because, like leaven, it starts little, and, like leaven, it leavens the whole lump.
Likewise, legalistic requirements were introduced into the body as "guidelines," but "This persuasion doesn't come from him that called you [us]. A little leaven leavens the whole lump." Galatians 5:8&9
Over time, as the whole lump was leavened, these "guidelines" became more & more absolute control over our flesh.
Hmmmmmmm.....could it be any clearer??
The foundational pfal class had lots of scripture and a little leaven...
The leavening of the intermediate class with definitions and more private interpretation...
Increased leavening in the advanced class with wierwillian doctrine and agendas...
The leavening of the corps program ....starting with the 5 corps objectives...
Yeah.....and the blood sacrifice of Jesus on the doorway of our hearts has brought many of us full circle to this day of forgiveness and remission of sins.
I have learned that "ministering" to other people doesn't mean running folks through classes, or selling them tapes or books, or being a "dynamic" teacher in front of crowds...or convincing them that MY group has all the answers...it's not about going WOW or taking corps assignments...it's not about "outreach"
I think I see what your are trying to say. But may I add...for some of us, those were grand days of joy and hard work with great fruit.
The reason why, was that all those things were not ideal for "me" but they were awesome for "us".
As you wrote though...those are not the only ways.
One part where I depart from your idea, is the last paragraph.
quote:
In fact, twi will confuse you as to what those things really mean.
If I was confused in life, in or out of the Way, it was primarily because I chose to be confused. In most cases, I had the truth at my fingertips and the ability to know. But I chose to be confused, chose to "take on faith" what people said.
In addition, it was generally my choice to accept something off kilter and not go to the Word with people that had influence.
It's nice to see you have an interest in helping people and listening. That's a fine quality to preserve.
Yeah.....and the blood sacrifice of Jesus on the doorway of our hearts has brought many of us full circle to this day of forgiveness and remission of sins.
A quote worth repeating over and over again, sky. ;)-->
"Often ministering to people is just: listening to their problems, helping out when they need help, hosting a dinner, tuning a car, sharing a cookbook, babysitting a child, or maybe showing what you have been reading from the Scripture, maybe if someone has a question taking it first to the Lord in prayer and then showing them how to perform a word-study on the topic."
So what have folks been doing to minister unto others lately?
I have recently began coaching my son's highschool fencing team, and I help out at the Vet center....
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justloafing
What ever it takes for some. You hit the nail on the head, ex10
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smurfette
I think it was 90's when you had to stop offering to minister to people--you could only offer to pray for them since you couldn't know ahead of time if you were going to get heavy revy
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Ham
So much for "all nine all da time". Apparently, results are not guaranteed.
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Belle
The real reason being, no one in TWI in the 90's was getting revelation and if they did they would have had to run it by their leadership before even offering to minister. Not to mention the fact that they only taught us about devil spirits, terrible consequences of leaving "the household", abundant sharing and witnessing. There was no teaching about actually ministering to people that I can remember. Come to think of it, I don't think there was the whole time I was in TWI, which would have been in the 90's. I could be wrong and YMMV based on where you were located.
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ex10
not every problem in life is solved by throwing bible verses at it.
In fact, my experience has been that very few problems in life are solved by reading the bible more, speaking in tongues more, following the "rules" more, as in going to church more, attending more meetings, whatever.
Yeah, white dove, I learned it first in Topeka.
Hello. life is way more complicated than pat answers. Being there, and doing whatever it takes to be there for someone includes a much greater repetoire than we were ever exposed to in the cult.
Your mileage may differ.
:)-->
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justloafing
2nd morning in a row I woke up and read what you said in this thread ex10. IMO You are hitting the nail right on the head.
:)-->
I know we can minister better since leaving that little cult. We can throw more than bible verses at them. If I said to a friend of mine today. "Just renew your mind" I would get some awfully strange looks. Since my friends around here are not bible thumpers. It takes a lot of thought and caring to help someone.
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Belle
smurfette, backatcha!
;)-->
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ex10
jl
Yeah, as if.
:)-->
The bible is never a substitute for a real, flesh and blood relationship, with a living person.
Jesus was/is flesh and blood too.
Unfortunately, our former church replaced him with words, ie pat answers, pithy (or not so pithy) sayings with a particular spin at that.
:)--> and rules and regs devoid of any kind of "apiriutality."
It's a wonderful world outside of the cacoon of Way doctrine and (warped) practice.
:D-->
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Tom
Here is something that I just posted somewhere else that seems to me to fit here also:
Thanks a lot for the scratch.
Quote:
How do I define Christian? How about anyone who considers Jesus as Lord/Savior/Son of God?
So, then am I right in assuming that since you don't consider yourself a Christian, that you don't consider Jesus to be Lord, Savior, or Son of God?
Just making sure.
Quote:
...who am I to set up standards to judge anyone's authenticity?
Of course, the classic TWI answer would be you ["who am I"] would not be doing the judging, the Word would be. Actually, this arguably would be Jesus' answer to the same question.
John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
Of course that brings us back to what is a Christian, but one would think that, of all people, Christ would know what a Christian is - and even his reasoning was I'm not judging, the Word is.
I agree with Jesus on that reasoning.
But, of course, so do the "Trintarians and Unitarians, those who believe that every syllable of the bible was put in place by God and those who believe that the bible is purely the work of men, and all opinions in between." So, while I completely agree with Jesus thinking on this, neither my agreement nor Jesus' thinking stated above help us mitigate the crossfire involved in the diverse field of play of "Trintarians and Unitarians, those who believe that every syllable of the bible was put in place by God and those who believe that the bible is purely the work of men, and all opinions in between."
So, let's step outside of the box and look at what's going on in the box from the outside.
A rose by any other name... But that doesn't mean that any other thing were it called a rose would be one. A rose is what it is regardless of what we call it.
And so is everything else.
To go beyond that is to make too big a deal about terminology to the loss of the realization of the nature of things, candor, and truth. Just as we can speak and write our language without knowing the names of the parts of speech, so we can love and react to our true natures without knowing the names of the states of our natures. Btw, so also we can use and respond to figurative language witout knowing the names of the figures.
Nomenclature, in any study, is a convenience for purposes of classification and discussion.
Here lies the pivitol point in our discussion and the reason, the necessity I believe, to consider the bible in a discussion of what a Christian is. I don't think it is a matter of whether the bible is literal or figurative as much as it is a matter of whether or not the bible has integrity.
For figurative language is a lot more precise than modern consideration gives it credit for, and literal language is a lot less precise than people suppose. Figurative language can shame literal language in its ability to communicate living truth, and literal language is as woefully deficient to communicate sound thinking as the mind behind the mouth that speaks it.
That's because all language interprets itself in its context - as does everything else in life.
Language is generally relatively (relative to a consideration that there is any kind of absolute truth concerning the nature of things) imprecise. Many words have multiple meanings. Even supposedly precise dictionary meanings will vary somewhat with each usage depending upon its context. Language is just a fluid thing over time and circumstances. Theoretically, the more we know about something - historically, socially - demographically - the more understanding we will have of a thing.
But "everything" is a big field to play in. Even people with a broad scope of knowledge will have their perspective skewed in one direction or another somewhat, and nobody knows it all.
The bible says that God has purified language.
Psalms 12:6 The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
In a furnace of earth - hymph, that's curious. I believe that earth element carries over in the analogy. I my life, God has done a remarkable job of purifying the meaning of his communications to me in the context of my life. IN MY LIFE, I can't get around his words to me.
I think God does that. Its a God thing, a thing God does in his communicating with people.
And likewise I think his word is like that. Actually, I think it IS that - just in other people's lives. That's God's integrity interacting with our lives.
I've been awed by word studies. I've been awed by going back to the first usage of things in the bible. I don't find that the bible always interpretes itself that way, the way that TWI taught it would, but I find that it does it too many times to be coincidence.
So what? I find the Word of God has integrity, but the bible is not THE WORD OF GOD with a capital blah, blah, blah. I believe there are other parts of the Word of God that are not in the bible.
Is everything in the bible the Word of God? I mean besides corruption over the years. I think so. The order of it? I'm not so sure. I'm sort of overwhelmed by the seven church epistles and their order.
I'd like to know more about the bible, the canon, & so forth.
But to tell you the truth, for the present time, there are other things I'm more into.
The sermon on the mount is just absolutely amazing me. I've been over it I don't know how many times in the last month or so. Every time I read it or listen to it or discuss its truths, it balances my life and centers it in God so that the issues of my life outward flow out from God.
There's this guy at work. Umm, his brother was murdered a couple of years ago. He got cancer and it - I don't know the word, starts with "M," spread through his body. He was given so many months. I ministered to him and healed him and his health immediately did a 180.
I know that for his healing to stick, he has to change the base of his life from the darkness that invaded his heart and family as a result of the murder to what it means to be a Christian. I don't pretend to comprehensive knowledge of Cancer and its cure, but these things I know.
So, I'm teaching him Galatians about freedom from the law and Ephesians about the beauty of the organism that is the body of Christ with our vital lives in the spirit together as members in particular.
Its coming alive with him and some others at work and their families. To me that's what it means to be a Christian. Does it have anything to do with how literally I take the bible or whether or not I believe the bible is "God-breathed?"
No.
Yes.
Somewhat - in certain regards.
But what really matters is getting God to speak to us - to get his Word to us - right here - what we need - right now - with power - to us - to be interpreted in the context of our lives.
The bible - figures in. Its always - well many times - there. But it is not the thing and no one thinks it is.
Its not an organized church thing. We've all gone outside the camp to where the lamb is - to where he was sacrificed.
It's where the healing is.
Can I say God's love be upon you?
Tom
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alfakat
Thank you, Tom. That is kind of where I am at right now. I know that I know -- that I know only in part but then...when we have all that He has now, then i will know in full. I am weary of the whole have to know everything in every detail approach...we CANNOT know it all, or even very much at all, at times, it seems. But I have come to Him and that is more than knowing the "ALL" of knowing it all....
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Tom
You're quite welcome, alfakat. Isn't there something very freeing in not knowing it all - and not having to? Results don't depend on you and your knowledge.
You get to trust.
And walk on water.
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ex10
tom
I guess the big question for me is, is it a "who" we trust, or a "what" we trust.
:)-->
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Tom
Indeed, good point, ex. What a dark place TWI was!
2 Corinthians 3:4 Â And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:
5 Â Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God.
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GrouchoMarxJr
I'm glad to see so many responses to this thread...Many times we read about the abuses of twi, but seldom is it discussed within the context of "ministering"...The contrast between the intentions to help vs. what actually happened. Had I been indifferent towards people, it would have been difficult enough to watch the abuses...but to watch the abuses when my heart was to do the exact opposite...was enough for me to walk away.
In twi, the focus was not really on the person who had a need...it was on the "mighty minister", who, while dancing around in tights, would grace us with his presence as he pontificated and spit upon us all.
Oooooh, Ahhhhh...went the crowds, as the athelete of the spirit, the mighty minister, the center of attention...would wave his over the crowd...
Of course the guy who quietly sat in the back...the guy who was sick and in need went home without being noticed or without being healed...taking with him, a new found guilt...he was now guilty of NOT BELIEVING for his own deliverance. The mighty minister had said so...
Twi had everything assbackwards. They promised a magic show but only came up with smoke and mirrors...and we all saw through it eventually...or at least most of us did...(sorry about that Bob Moneyhands)...When they failed to deliver the goods, they institutionalized and ritualized the process. When one considers the egos that were involved with the twi leadership, is it any wonder that Christ was absent?
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mj412
yes ego, and competittion for academics.
when I raised my children they "thought as a child would" . As grown adults they have their own opinons ideals and life styles that belongs to them as individuals , (they no longer have a need to do and say as I the parent would) they "no longer think as a child", under my thoughts and control and responsibility. I was in a sense like God to them when they were children to grow up means to accept the real God as their Father and creator.
As christians we are to grow up into what christ set as His only begotten Son.... that means we no longer should be under a teacher or school of thought ( as a child still learning would). Our parent is God the Father, and our teacher is the Lord Jesus christ now, as adults each individual and seperate in the family of God.
folks in twi never grew as persons never grew to know Christ as their leader in life because I feel it is so much easier to deal with people when they have to obey and "be meek" , it is easier to say to a child here now you must put on your socks and pants go to school and do this and that because I am responsible for you and you have NO choice! Than to negotiate or feel the work of genuine relationships built on love and respect for one another.
Our Father God likes the grown up relationship He has with his creation , he has no need for co-dependacy or ego or power trips , He can meet our needs but frankly most human adults can meet their own needs christian or not , so it is all about trusting HIm and His plan for mankind and worshipping and loving HIM as God with His son Jesus christ.
When we minister is it truly about loving that person and the Lord directing the path we all walk in life? or is it some magic performed becasuse we "have the power" our own self and give God almighty the less than position ?
now I can truly see how many can be fooled, christians like to think they are special and more powerful than the devil or any mere human being alive, that they are called and "have ministries that enable them to perform special and unique tasks for God. Ego lives in a dream world of tasks completed.
But in the end it is God wh has performed from the very beginning to save His own dream of having a family and the ONLY one capable of completing a task well done is Jesus christ! If we are so able to defeat the devil HELLO what are we still doing here on earth then? we have zero pwoer against evil forces and that is why we can call on the HOLY name of Jesus christ to get the job done. But we are not children we are not told what to do by God as a dictator who takes responsibility and control for us we are to be adults and make our own choices no matter how much our Father may groan and cry over what we chose to do in life. He will always keep our home safe and a place to go to when we learn as Jesus guides our direction and we decide maybe He did do it right for all of us and truly thank God for it.
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mj412
I see many into bible worship as well which is another issue all together.
that is pure power and control over another.
Can you ask a one year old child to drive the car to the store and pick up a gallon of milk for ya ?
no how stupid right? but how about if you said to that child of one year of age he was worthless and to be ashamed because he could not do it ? that he was doomed as a failure in His fathers eye. allowing quicker and more total control of a shattered person.
BUT that baby will one day also be able to drive and he will remember the shame and less than feelings you instilled in him when he was not yet grown enough to understand, he was not yet grown enough to fullfill YOUR needs. resentment builds within , and He turns to the real Authority in life that allows him to succeed without any conditions or control in his life, God almighty and the saving grace of the Lord Jesus Christ.
hence the fall of an empire.
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Tom
Hmm, I've been thinking for a long time now that it worked the other way around - that when they institutionalized and ritualized the process, that's when they failed to deliver the goods.
I figure that when VP didn't trust Jesus to be the head of the body, he used instruments of institution to centralize control in his own hands. The "joints and bands" through which the head, Jesus Christ, ministered [now that's true ministering] nourishment to the body were replaced by the "guidelines" of the Way Tree. These "guidelines," of course, were then presented as an aspect of doctrine, introducing legalistic requirements into the body.
Jesus taught his disciples to take heed and to be beware of this "leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees" which was "the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees," to beware of it.
We have to beware of this doctrine because, like leaven, it starts little, and, like leaven, it leavens the whole lump.
Likewise, legalistic requirements were introduced into the body as "guidelines," but "This persuasion doesn't come from him that called you [us]. A little leaven leavens the whole lump." Galatians 5:8&9
Over time, as the whole lump was leavened, these "guidelines" became more & more absolute control over our flesh.
The other side of this legalistic control was the sexual immorality which some gloried in. 1 Corinthians 5:6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven (talking about fornication) leaveneth the whole lump? The legalism and the lack of sexual restraint – this is the hypocrisy involved in the leavening process. Luke 12:1 … first of all, Beware ye of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy.
This process continued in TWI until the whole became like the "malice and wickedness" with which Egypt cruelly ruled over the children of Israel, slaves from which to extract every ounce of effort with less and less to work with.
So, what was the solution? 1 Corinthians 5:7 ¶Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us:
While they were purging us out, we were supposed to be purging them out. Sarah had the right idea when she said to get rid of the bondwoman for she wouldn't be heir with the freewoman, but would persecute her.
And we are directed to be new in the Passover sacrifice - the cross that Wierwille hated and Martindale hated even more.
Because in the sacrifice of Jesus with his blood on the doorway to our hearts, the evil one is made to pass over our families. The malice and wickedness of the oppressor has no access. There is no ego of man that can maintain face in the face of him who had to have his own face torn beyond recognition to make up for our inability to put on a face worth taking a picture of to put into a scrapbook. There is no class division beyond his suffering.
On the contrary, THAT's where the healing takes place. It is as entirely appropriate that Jesus' sacrifice as our Passover should be mentioned in a thread about Ministering to people??? and TWI as it is that it should be mentioned in 1 Corinthians in the context of oppression and wickedness.
There is another really cool thing about leaven. The kingdom of God is like leaven “which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.â€
The kingdom of God was hidden in us until our whole becomes leavened.
Hypocrisy shall end “for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; neither hid, that shall not be known.â€
The lump that was TWI is known.
The lump that is the body of Christ is still being leavened, becoming the bread of life.
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Belle
Tom, that is one of the best posts I think I've read here. I agree wholeheartedly with your quote above!
They seem to have gotten greedy and egotistical enjoying bragging on the wonderful things that were taking place and instead of giving God the glory, they started taking the glory for themselves and, in their greed, set up rules that they thought would increase things to brag about.
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skyrider
Hmmmmmmm.....could it be any clearer??
The foundational pfal class had lots of scripture and a little leaven...
The leavening of the intermediate class with definitions and more private interpretation...
Increased leavening in the advanced class with wierwillian doctrine and agendas...
The leavening of the corps program ....starting with the 5 corps objectives...
Yeah.....and the blood sacrifice of Jesus on the doorway of our hearts has brought many of us full circle to this day of forgiveness and remission of sins.
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mdvaden
I think I see what your are trying to say. But may I add...for some of us, those were grand days of joy and hard work with great fruit.
The reason why, was that all those things were not ideal for "me" but they were awesome for "us".
As you wrote though...those are not the only ways.
One part where I depart from your idea, is the last paragraph.
If I was confused in life, in or out of the Way, it was primarily because I chose to be confused. In most cases, I had the truth at my fingertips and the ability to know. But I chose to be confused, chose to "take on faith" what people said.
In addition, it was generally my choice to accept something off kilter and not go to the Word with people that had influence.
It's nice to see you have an interest in helping people and listening. That's a fine quality to preserve.
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Tom
Thank you very much for the high compliment, Belle.
Tom
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ex10
A quote worth repeating over and over again, sky.
;)-->
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Galen
"Often ministering to people is just: listening to their problems, helping out when they need help, hosting a dinner, tuning a car, sharing a cookbook, babysitting a child, or maybe showing what you have been reading from the Scripture, maybe if someone has a question taking it first to the Lord in prayer and then showing them how to perform a word-study on the topic."
So what have folks been doing to minister unto others lately?
I have recently began coaching my son's highschool fencing team, and I help out at the Vet center....
Next?
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