21 years of reasonably abundant and at times exhilerating Way Life.
I'm qualified to speak on my own behalf regarding these, and many other important topics.
My tapes can be bought at socksrateez dot com Buy some, I have lots of heavy stuff on them, answers to questions nobody even knows they have yet. Really.
I mean, if someone has a seat in there to witness, or tape recorded teachings, then groovy. I guess they heard enough to form an opinion.
If not - then it's reasonalble to acknowledge lack of awareness about TWI doctrine and that you just disagree.
Is WayAP (The Way of Abudance & Power) still The Way's foundational class? If so, then I, and a few others here know what is being taught in TWI and can form an opinion.
Are Wierwille's Studies in Abundant Living, Christians Should Be Prosperous, Jesus Christ is NOT God, Are the Dead Alive Now?, Receiving the Holy Spirit Today, Jesus Christ Our Passover, Jesus Christ Our Promised Seed and Martindale's Rise & Expansion of the Christian Church in the First Century still being sold and taught from? If so, then I, and most others here know what is being taught in TWI and can form an opinion.
Have Rosalie and the other leaders acknowledged the abuses and errors of the past and repudiated them? If not, then I, and others here can discern their attitude and can form an opinion.
Several of us have been out of TWI a very short time and can attest to what is being taught. Some of us still have Way Magazine subscriptions or can see what is said about them on the Family Tables website.
We have a firm basis for our opinions, MD. A very firm basis. What we cannot address is your own personal experience or the atmosphere in your area.
Did you know that several of us were ejected from The Way because we were found to be posting here? Did you know that one of us, while still "in" sent a letter to an acquaintance at HQ, and the Way leadership tracked that person through the postage machine stamp on the envelope?
You're involved with The Way and are allowed to freely post your pro-TWI opinions here. Did you know that a website run by a TWI guy recently banned most of us from his website to prevent us from freely posting our opinions?
"People were hurt, people died by adherance to twi doctrine, and abuse from it`s top leaders.
By supporting/participating in twi, it could be argued that one is turning a blind eye to the suffering of our brothers and sisters in Christ."
Supporting and participating in the abuse of fellow beleivers, should be well considered as guilty.
Though it would appear that many did such.
I do beleive that I actively fought such, and tried my best to minister to people's needs. At the time, I thought that such was what EVERYONE was doing.
"That is where the parallell between twi and hitler is aplicable."
No need to end it with Hitler. What about when our nation enters a religous war, not just stepping into the middle to try and 'end' the violence, but rahter to take a side and to actively defend one side of a religous war. A war that has raged for centurys, in fact. Lets go one further and say that our government decides to side with the Muslims in this religous war, to pursue and kill Christians. For no more reason than because of their religous faith and the fact that they are fighting Muslims.
I have always spoken out for the rights of beleivers in the Way, and it got me grief, but I have never felt guilty of hurting fellow beleivers while fellowshiping with The Way. Rather I have hurt chirstians, but it was in the Kosovo theater.
My tapes can be bought at socksrateez dot com Buy some, I have lots of heavy stuff on them, answers to questions nobody even knows they have yet. Really.
I minister with laughter, I have a Laughing ministry, AKA a "Humor Gift" by the Braptists but they're always getting stuff wrong. :D--> :D--> I run services weekly where people laugh so hard they wet their pants. After releasing it's amazing the change that follows, everyone immediately changes. It's axiomatic, inherent and no one gets missed. Everyone has to change.
I see my link isn't working. Apparently I'm under attack. The best defense is a good offense.
"Three guys walk in to a bar - a priest, an engineer and a gardner...."
Anyone reading this...anyone...was there a point on staff at TWI or in the TWI fellowship structure that (when) you truly felt blessed? Was there a time when you felt nurtured? Loved? Encouraged?
Of course, especially in the beginning when they wanted to be sure I stood after taking the class or when they wanted me to go WOW. After that most of the time it was no.
You can't take small moments and make a whole story out of it. Ask the same question of a woman abused by an alcoholic who is afraid to leave him.
My point is that there were a few moments in twi that were fun, warm, or loving. Remember I said few. There are A LOT of moments that made me feel like I wasn't measuring up and had to explain myself. Many years of this turned me in to a person I no longer liked or with whom I felt comfortable. There is way more bad than good in my involvement in twi. The worst time was on Staff. I felt used and cheated. I tried to convince myself I was where God wanted me to be. I lied to myself a lot about what was really happening because I didn't want to blame the ministry.
"I took cookies to our new neighbors and introduced myself."
That sounds sweet
"I baked and brought yummy cheeseballs and hot coffee to a dog competition this week-end because many people were camping out and did not have access to these kinds of goodies. I also volunteered my time to help in quite a few ways because they were short-handed."
That sounds wonderful.
"I volunteer my database skills for free to a group that desperately needed my help. I’ve stopped on the side of the road to loan my cell phone or a ride to people who have been broken down several times in the past few months. I’ve met some really nice, neat people this way. I type my neighbor's chuch group agenda and other paperwork each week for her."
So socks, are ya hiring? Can I be your head groupie? Or if you already have a head groupie, can I at least say I'm part of your splinter group? :)--> and just pretend I'm an important somebody? :D-->
Of course! Your application is being given serious consideration. ;)--> Admissions is working on it! We have a few selected spots open for "MIBS". (Members in Best Standing!)
You've got many more than the two or three witnesses that the Word requires, and you just said flat out that you won't believe it anyway; thereby calling not only all the witnesses liars, but doing the opposite of what the Word says you should do - and quoting the Word as your authority for doing so.
Actually, I don't operate according to one verse only for a witness, verification or standard?
Do you?
Anyhow, there is more in the word, including the old testament reference for diligently inquiring.
That involves more than witnesses. The witnesses is one standard the word set forth. But "diligently inquired" will overlap with letting the "peace of God rule". And that's going to mean that each situation's diligent inquiry will be unique.
One thing it probably won't mean is believing anonymous witness over the internet.
Myself, I don't believe in "insulation" in any portion of service or fellowship...
FROM EZEKIEL 8
Ezekiel 8:7-17
And he brought me to the door of the court; and when I looked, behold a hole in the wall.
8 Then said he unto me, Son of man, dig now in the wall : and when I had digged in the wall , behold a door.
9 And he said unto me, Go in, and behold the wicked abominations that they do here.
10 So I went in and saw; and behold every form of creeping things, and abominable beasts, and all the idols of the house of Israel, pourtrayed upon the wall round about.
11 And there stood before them seventy men of the ancients of the house of Israel, and in the midst of them stood Jaazaniah the son of Shaphan, with every man his censer in his hand; and a thick cloud of incense went up.
12 Then said he unto me, Son of man, hast thou seen what the ancients of the house of Israel do in the dark, every man in the chambers of his imagery? for they say, The LORD seeth us not; the LORD hath forsaken the earth.
13 He said also unto me, Turn thee yet again, and thou shalt see greater abominations that they do.
14 Then he brought me to the door of the gate of the LORD's house which was toward the north; and, behold, there sat women weeping for Tammuz.
15 Then said he unto me, Hast thou seen this, O son of man? turn thee yet again, and thou shalt see greater abominations than these.
16 And he brought me into the inner court of the LORD's house, and, behold, at the door of the temple of the LORD, between the porch and the altar, were about five and twenty men, with their backs toward the temple of the LORD, and their faces toward the east; and they worshipped the sun toward the east.
17 Then he said unto me, Hast thou seen this, O son of man? Is it a light thing to the house of Judah that they commit the abominations which they commit here? for they have filled the land with violence, and have returned to provoke me to anger: and, lo, they put the branch to their nose.
Aww yes.....the ezekiel account taught in martindale's advanced class. The Lord showed ezekiel the abomination and idols of the house of Israel, etc........and the Lord was provoked to anger.
Yet, you remain associated with an abusive organization that "angers the Lord" with adulterous and idolatrous activity??? Yes........from your limited and insulated twi experiences, you haven't seen "behind the doors of twi's corruption." But then, as you continue to come to this open forum........YOU ARE STEPPING FORWARD TO SEE MORE. ;)-->
mdvaden, I commend you for coming to GS.....really I do. As you engage in open dialogue......and not just quoting OT records.....insight and understanding will fill your heart and life.
mdvaden....there are so many here who have seperate but astonishingly similar accounts of the abuse suffered at the hands of vpw and lcm. Some of it is even documented in a court of law.....
You will eventually come to the place that you will have to decide that
a) We who share our stories are all liars.
b) We might be telling the truth, but probably deserved what happened anyway.
c) We are telling the truth, but it doesn`t matter, as you personally recieved some good.
d) We were abused by leaders who betrayed the trust that God bestowed.
As you contemplate these points that we discuss, please consider that there might have been solid reasons that tens of thousands of us have been led away from twi.
That involves more than witnesses. The witnesses is one standard the word set forth. But "diligently inquired" will overlap with letting the "peace of God rule". And that's going to mean that each situation's diligent inquiry will be unique.
One thing it probably won't mean is believing anonymous witness over the internet.
Ahhhh, MDVaden, but we are NOT all anonymous! ;)--> In fact, MOST of the people on here have at one point in time posted who they are, some use their real name and others would tell you who they are if you are genuinely interested. I don't advertise who I am, but if you really want to know and want to know my qualifications for what I post here send me a PT and I'll gladly tell you.
There are many, many ordained ministers, limb and region coordinators as well as Way Corps grads on here. It's not a bunch of "nobodies" posting on here. They are REAL PEOPLE with REAL EXPERIENCES and REAL CREDIBILITY. Don't be so quick to dismiss what they have to say. :)--> You just might be surprised.
Yeah, what Belle said TOO! ...lol we truly ARE real people with REAL experiences, and Real credibility......people whom God cares every bit as much for as those *faithfull remnant* left in twi.
There are very few people who experience the blessings of a life out of twi that would opt for a return to the frustration of dealing with the unpleasant leaders and unreasonable demands made by the organization, no matter HOW sweet the fellowship is locally....once out ....one finds that there is meaningfull fellowship and growth oportunities out here, WITHOUT the trauma of trying to measure up to the ever changing standards required in order to associate one`s self with twi.
mdvaden, I commend you for coming to GS.....really I do. As you engage in open dialogue......and not just quoting OT records.....insight and understanding will fill your heart and life.
I do too, and on top of what Skyrider said -- you're polite as well :)-->
I am not *anonymous* -- dmiller is my real name, and anything I have said about twi comes from me -- not some screen-name out there in cyber space.
Sure - I had some good times in twi (see my post on page one of this thread), but like Belle said -- it was early on, and not towards the end of my tenure with twi.
In the beginning it was all about service to our fellow man (my take on it, anyway) -- and it deteriorated into service for twi. I was never a leader or anything, just a *leaf*, but the legalism soon over-rode the *giving* aspect of life, and robbed me of the joy of giving to some individual on the street, since he/she weren't in the *ministry*.
I didn't mind supporting twi (at the time), but when I was told I was *off the Word* for giving to someone in need, and not "abundantly sharing to twi", that is when I started having some serious doubts.
It's a treat to be able to give whatever I can to whomever needs it, whenever it is *available*, without worrying about what someone down in New Knoxville thinks about it.
Which gets us back to the original intent of this thread --- ministering to people is much more than just getting them to twig, signing them up for the class, or following *party doctrine*.
It's getting down in the gutter with them, so you can help them out (even if only briefly), to do what you can to make their life a little better -- one moment at a time. :)-->
Ps --- Socks -- Ya got room for a Fiddlepicker in yer Praizze and Wurship band? -->
Sure would admire to "pick along" with y'all. I guarantee that my picking will have your congregation laughing even harder, and you'll see more *change* than you thought possible!! :D-->
Contact me at Sour Strings if I have a shot at it. ;)-->
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socks
10 years of Roman Catholic education.
21 years of reasonably abundant and at times exhilerating Way Life.
I'm qualified to speak on my own behalf regarding these, and many other important topics.
My tapes can be bought at socksrateez dot com Buy some, I have lots of heavy stuff on them, answers to questions nobody even knows they have yet.
Really.
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Oakspear
Are Wierwille's Studies in Abundant Living, Christians Should Be Prosperous, Jesus Christ is NOT God, Are the Dead Alive Now?, Receiving the Holy Spirit Today, Jesus Christ Our Passover, Jesus Christ Our Promised Seed and Martindale's Rise & Expansion of the Christian Church in the First Century still being sold and taught from? If so, then I, and most others here know what is being taught in TWI and can form an opinion.
Have Rosalie and the other leaders acknowledged the abuses and errors of the past and repudiated them? If not, then I, and others here can discern their attitude and can form an opinion.
Several of us have been out of TWI a very short time and can attest to what is being taught. Some of us still have Way Magazine subscriptions or can see what is said about them on the Family Tables website.
We have a firm basis for our opinions, MD. A very firm basis. What we cannot address is your own personal experience or the atmosphere in your area.
Did you know that several of us were ejected from The Way because we were found to be posting here? Did you know that one of us, while still "in" sent a letter to an acquaintance at HQ, and the Way leadership tracked that person through the postage machine stamp on the envelope?
You're involved with The Way and are allowed to freely post your pro-TWI opinions here. Did you know that a website run by a TWI guy recently banned most of us from his website to prevent us from freely posting our opinions?
Oh yeah...we know what we're talking about
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Galen
rascal:
"People were hurt, people died by adherance to twi doctrine, and abuse from it`s top leaders.
By supporting/participating in twi, it could be argued that one is turning a blind eye to the suffering of our brothers and sisters in Christ."
Supporting and participating in the abuse of fellow beleivers, should be well considered as guilty.
Though it would appear that many did such.
I do beleive that I actively fought such, and tried my best to minister to people's needs. At the time, I thought that such was what EVERYONE was doing.
"That is where the parallell between twi and hitler is aplicable."
No need to end it with Hitler. What about when our nation enters a religous war, not just stepping into the middle to try and 'end' the violence, but rahter to take a side and to actively defend one side of a religous war. A war that has raged for centurys, in fact. Lets go one further and say that our government decides to side with the Muslims in this religous war, to pursue and kill Christians. For no more reason than because of their religous faith and the fact that they are fighting Muslims.
I have always spoken out for the rights of beleivers in the Way, and it got me grief, but I have never felt guilty of hurting fellow beleivers while fellowshiping with The Way. Rather I have hurt chirstians, but it was in the Kosovo theater.
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excathedra
laughing my socks off
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socks
I made Exie la-augh!
I minister with laughter, I have a Laughing ministry, AKA a "Humor Gift" by the Braptists but they're always getting stuff wrong.
:D--> 
:D--> I run services weekly where people laugh so hard they wet their pants. After releasing it's amazing the change that follows, everyone immediately changes. It's axiomatic, inherent and no one gets missed. Everyone has to change.
I see my link isn't working. Apparently I'm under attack. The best defense is a good offense.
"Three guys walk in to a bar - a priest, an engineer and a gardner...."
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excathedra
STOP i'm gonna have to change !!!!!!!
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Belle
Me too, ex! I just got my screen cleaned off and he starts up again......
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Nottawayfer
Of course, especially in the beginning when they wanted to be sure I stood after taking the class or when they wanted me to go WOW. After that most of the time it was no.
You can't take small moments and make a whole story out of it. Ask the same question of a woman abused by an alcoholic who is afraid to leave him.
My point is that there were a few moments in twi that were fun, warm, or loving. Remember I said few. There are A LOT of moments that made me feel like I wasn't measuring up and had to explain myself. Many years of this turned me in to a person I no longer liked or with whom I felt comfortable. There is way more bad than good in my involvement in twi. The worst time was on Staff. I felt used and cheated. I tried to convince myself I was where God wanted me to be. I lied to myself a lot about what was really happening because I didn't want to blame the ministry.
*****************************
MDV, did you ever go WOW?
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Galen
Belle-the-sweet-and-wonderful:
"I took cookies to our new neighbors and introduced myself."
That sounds sweet
"I baked and brought yummy cheeseballs and hot coffee to a dog competition this week-end because many people were camping out and did not have access to these kinds of goodies. I also volunteered my time to help in quite a few ways because they were short-handed."
That sounds wonderful.
"I volunteer my database skills for free to a group that desperately needed my help. I’ve stopped on the side of the road to loan my cell phone or a ride to people who have been broken down several times in the past few months. I’ve met some really nice, neat people this way. I type my neighbor's chuch group agenda and other paperwork each week for her."
Great ! ! !
"Do these count?"
I should hope so. :-)
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ex10
So socks, are ya hiring? Can I be your head groupie? Or if you already have a head groupie, can I at least say I'm part of your splinter group?
:)--> and just pretend I'm an important somebody? 
:D-->
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socks
Of course! Your application is being given serious consideration.
;)--> Admissions is working on it! We have a few selected spots open for "MIBS". (Members in Best Standing!) 
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mdvaden
This was off Thomas Heller's post...
Actually, I don't operate according to one verse only for a witness, verification or standard?
Do you?
Anyhow, there is more in the word, including the old testament reference for diligently inquiring.
That involves more than witnesses. The witnesses is one standard the word set forth. But "diligently inquired" will overlap with letting the "peace of God rule". And that's going to mean that each situation's diligent inquiry will be unique.
One thing it probably won't mean is believing anonymous witness over the internet.
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mdvaden
A Skyrider quote...
Myself, I don't believe in "insulation" in any portion of service or fellowship...
FROM EZEKIEL 8
Ezekiel 8:7-17
And he brought me to the door of the court; and when I looked, behold a hole in the wall.
8 Then said he unto me, Son of man, dig now in the wall : and when I had digged in the wall , behold a door.
9 And he said unto me, Go in, and behold the wicked abominations that they do here.
10 So I went in and saw; and behold every form of creeping things, and abominable beasts, and all the idols of the house of Israel, pourtrayed upon the wall round about.
11 And there stood before them seventy men of the ancients of the house of Israel, and in the midst of them stood Jaazaniah the son of Shaphan, with every man his censer in his hand; and a thick cloud of incense went up.
12 Then said he unto me, Son of man, hast thou seen what the ancients of the house of Israel do in the dark, every man in the chambers of his imagery? for they say, The LORD seeth us not; the LORD hath forsaken the earth.
13 He said also unto me, Turn thee yet again, and thou shalt see greater abominations that they do.
14 Then he brought me to the door of the gate of the LORD's house which was toward the north; and, behold, there sat women weeping for Tammuz.
15 Then said he unto me, Hast thou seen this, O son of man? turn thee yet again, and thou shalt see greater abominations than these.
16 And he brought me into the inner court of the LORD's house, and, behold, at the door of the temple of the LORD, between the porch and the altar, were about five and twenty men, with their backs toward the temple of the LORD, and their faces toward the east; and they worshipped the sun toward the east.
17 Then he said unto me, Hast thou seen this, O son of man? Is it a light thing to the house of Judah that they commit the abominations which they commit here? for they have filled the land with violence, and have returned to provoke me to anger: and, lo, they put the branch to their nose.
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skyrider
mdvaden,
Aww yes.....the ezekiel account taught in martindale's advanced class. The Lord showed ezekiel the abomination and idols of the house of Israel, etc........and the Lord was provoked to anger.
Yet, you remain associated with an abusive organization that "angers the Lord" with adulterous and idolatrous activity??? Yes........from your limited and insulated twi experiences, you haven't seen "behind the doors of twi's corruption." But then, as you continue to come to this open forum........YOU ARE STEPPING FORWARD TO SEE MORE.
;)-->
mdvaden, I commend you for coming to GS.....really I do. As you engage in open dialogue......and not just quoting OT records.....insight and understanding will fill your heart and life.
Peace and blessings.
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rascal
You bet ... what sky rider said!
mdvaden....there are so many here who have seperate but astonishingly similar accounts of the abuse suffered at the hands of vpw and lcm. Some of it is even documented in a court of law.....
You will eventually come to the place that you will have to decide that
a) We who share our stories are all liars.
b) We might be telling the truth, but probably deserved what happened anyway.
c) We are telling the truth, but it doesn`t matter, as you personally recieved some good.
d) We were abused by leaders who betrayed the trust that God bestowed.
As you contemplate these points that we discuss, please consider that there might have been solid reasons that tens of thousands of us have been led away from twi.
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Belle
Ahhhh, MDVaden, but we are NOT all anonymous!
;)--> In fact, MOST of the people on here have at one point in time posted who they are, some use their real name and others would tell you who they are if you are genuinely interested. I don't advertise who I am, but if you really want to know and want to know my qualifications for what I post here send me a PT and I'll gladly tell you.
There are many, many ordained ministers, limb and region coordinators as well as Way Corps grads on here. It's not a bunch of "nobodies" posting on here. They are REAL PEOPLE with REAL EXPERIENCES and REAL CREDIBILITY. Don't be so quick to dismiss what they have to say.
:)--> You just might be surprised.
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rascal
Yeah, what Belle said TOO! ...lol we truly ARE real people with REAL experiences, and Real credibility......people whom God cares every bit as much for as those *faithfull remnant* left in twi.
There are very few people who experience the blessings of a life out of twi that would opt for a return to the frustration of dealing with the unpleasant leaders and unreasonable demands made by the organization, no matter HOW sweet the fellowship is locally....once out ....one finds that there is meaningfull fellowship and growth oportunities out here, WITHOUT the trauma of trying to measure up to the ever changing standards required in order to associate one`s self with twi.
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dmiller
I do too, and on top of what Skyrider said -- you're polite as well
:)-->
I am not *anonymous* -- dmiller is my real name, and anything I have said about twi comes from me -- not some screen-name out there in cyber space.
Sure - I had some good times in twi (see my post on page one of this thread), but like Belle said -- it was early on, and not towards the end of my tenure with twi.
In the beginning it was all about service to our fellow man (my take on it, anyway) -- and it deteriorated into service for twi. I was never a leader or anything, just a *leaf*, but the legalism soon over-rode the *giving* aspect of life, and robbed me of the joy of giving to some individual on the street, since he/she weren't in the *ministry*.
I didn't mind supporting twi (at the time), but when I was told I was *off the Word* for giving to someone in need, and not "abundantly sharing to twi", that is when I started having some serious doubts.
It's a treat to be able to give whatever I can to whomever needs it, whenever it is *available*, without worrying about what someone down in New Knoxville thinks about it.
Which gets us back to the original intent of this thread --- ministering to people is much more than just getting them to twig, signing them up for the class, or following *party doctrine*.
It's getting down in the gutter with them, so you can help them out (even if only briefly), to do what you can to make their life a little better -- one moment at a time.
:)-->
David
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dmiller
Ps --- Socks -- Ya got room for a Fiddlepicker in yer Praizze and Wurship band?
-->
Sure would admire to "pick along" with y'all. I guarantee that my picking will have your congregation laughing even harder, and you'll see more *change* than you thought possible!!
:D-->
Contact me at Sour Strings if I have a shot at it.
;)-->
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