Actually I experienced more interesting events from a spiritual point of view BEFORE I joined TWI. I readily acknowledge that in TWI I encountered some well-intentioned people who just wanted to help (I give them the credit for this NOT the TWI) but once they tied "ministering" to the Way infrastructure (That is join up or you are a corpse) then it became much less about helping people and more about helping TWI's bank account.
I once heard a dedicated Wayfer tell a neighbor ,who was a christian who believed in divine healings, that she would gladly minister to him for his chronic illness but only if he came to fellowship. How whacked is that ? She was actually proud of this approach and couldn't see anything wrong with it. I don't recall JC placing conditions on his healings like that.
In any case once TWI became more about egos and kissing a$$ to please the Way bosses the blessings stopped. People became visibily harsher and bitter in their attitudes towards those who weren't with TWI (copouts, "corpses") which ,for an organization that relied heavily upon new recruits, was most odd. Its my claim that the blessings and ministering that did occur in the so called "good ole days" (someting I claim is the product of nostalgia) were a function of good-hearted people trying to do good. I give those people the credit - NOT TWI.
there is a dangerous form of logic that some of the misty-eyed old timers use from time to time that basically holds that if you ever experienced any good thing while in TWI then you should give VPW full credit for making it possible for you to meet such great people. Very odd indeed. Those people were quality folks before they got into TWI.
You remember that book "The Way Living In Love" ? (I like to call it "The Way Living in La-La Land"). That book is one of my favorite works of fiction as I NEVER saw TWI that was described in that book and I was around during that time. It made it seem like people were routinely getting healed of diseases and personal problems disappeared when you joined TWI. (Actually those problems didn't disappear - people joined TWI to avoid dealing with them). While I think E. Whiteside was a good writer it doens't change the fact that that book was basically a sales tools. Lots of us young, energtic kids were really trying to make a difference so it was obvious that many of us were very optimistic and idealistic perhaps at the expense of reality (a problem associated with youth) so we didn't see the lies and problems that had already crept into TWI. The fact that many were worshipping VPW instead of God was not seen as a problem - at least by most.
Often ministering to people is just: listening to their problems, helping out when they need help, hosting a dinner, tuning a car, sharing a cookbook, babysitting a child, or maybe showing what you have been reading from the Scripture, maybe if someone has a question taking it first to the Lord in prayer and then showing them how to perform a word-study on the topic.
We have always been open to a meal with everyone in the fellowship, before we turn to the Word. Assuming that we dont go bowling instead.
To us such was how we have always ministered to those in our fellowship.
Of course, so many of the folks who got involved, really had good hearts and good intentions...at least at the beginning. Many did their best to help people because they actually DID care. Much of the actual help done for people was done in spite of twi, not because of them. Good hearted people who simply got involved...of course, these were the folks who eventually were either marked and avoided or left on their own.
Reminds me of an incident.......we were out WOW and going door-to-door witnessing (not my favorite thing to do, so I just changed my focus to helping people....not pushing anything). Anyways, me and this quiet guy were invited in by an older couple. Nice folks. The wife had a developing catarac (sp) in her left eye and her vision blurry.
She started crying when we talked about God's healing.....and softly, I told her that I'd pray with her if she wanted me to. She was very receptive to prayer and clasped my hands during my prayer.
Well, when she opened her eyes after the prayer.....no more blurred vision. She cried and her husband started crying and then, I cried tears of joy. It was one of those moments that you never forget.
Another five minutes passed as we talked about God's goodness, and then we made our way to the door. No, I never asked them to sign a green card.......it never crossed my mind.
It was one of my treasured moments on the WOW field
While listing is a big part of ministering, to me the big word is caring. When I care about a person everything else flows as it should and things happen.
Confronting the world with the accuracy of the verd doesn't really help anyone, does it?
skyrider, that's a great story! Those things happen, I believe, because of the great heart you and so many in the earlier years had to really love God and to really want to help people. TWI exploited that and took credit for all the good y'all did.
We had just moved so the hfc wanted our fellowship to go door to door and so we met at our house, split into groups and went. We went about knocking on doors and introducting ourselves as their new neighbors. No "sign the card" kind of witnessing. It was a great time and I could tell we were going to like the neighbors. When we got back we were heavily scolded for "not following direction". HELLO!! We WERE following direction. The ONE time my ex stood up for himself (and us) all of us knew he was right, but I was the only one to stand with him on the issue. Afterwards we were immediately and harshly reproved for arguing with the hfc in front of the whole fellowship. --> You just can't win for losing with them.
skyrider, that's a great story! Those things happen, I believe, because of the great heart you and so many in the earlier years had to really love God and to really want to help people. TWI exploited that and took credit for all the good y'all did.
Belle.....Thanks. The early days of twi1.....and the days BEFORE major-way-tree-structure..... were filled with unconditional love, caring, listening, helping, healing, etc. Giving and sharing and caring was an EVERYDAY occurrence.
To me.....ONE OF THE GREATEST DOWNFALLS OF TWI was vpw's corps training and agendas!!! With each passing year, the structure, and control, and language, and bondage was stifling the good-hearted and free-will giving of God's elect. IMO the corps program was the beginning of the end of God's blessing with twi. Legalism has prevailed!
Had I known this agenda, I never would have gone corps. Uuuuuugh.
I remember several times being prayed for when I was sick and having some blowhard get "revelation", close their eyes extra tight so they can visualize my ailments and say things like
"Lord I rebuke the excessive white blood cells from clogging Georgio's corpusles, I thank you for clearing the waves of nerve damage in his precious little head and for removing the clotting membranes in his lungs so he can breath freely and rejoice in your word. I pray that you heal the damaged arteries that are hindering oxogyn from flowing to his extremities and I thank you for restoring the damaged cells that are attacking his immune system and causing the pain that has been building behind his neck. I thank you for restoring the flow of calcium to his bones and for seperating the poison in his systen from his healthy blood. blah blah blah"
I would be thinking "I have a sprained ankle dude."
Meanwhile my mother would sit there crying at the amazing insight this guy had, seeing my illnesses and rebuking them. he was really "walking".
Freakin rediculous. I remember this happened once at a healing service at ROA where some total stranger wouldn't ask you what was wrong and would just launch into these irrelevent vision induced healing prayers. I remember thinking "when I am 18 I am SOOOOO out of here".
Of course, so many of the folks who got involved, really had good hearts and good intentions...at least at the beginning. Many did their best to help people because they actually DID care. Much of the actual help done for people was done in spite of twi, not because of them. Good hearted people who simply got involved...
Then Belle said:
quote:
skyrider, that's a great story! Those things happen, I believe, because of the great heart you and so many in the earlier years had to really love God and to really want to help people. TWI exploited that and took credit for all the good y'all did.
And skyrider replied:
quote:
Belle.....Thanks. The early days of twi1.....and the days BEFORE major-way-tree-structure..... were filled with unconditional love, caring, listening, helping, healing, etc. Giving and sharing and caring was an EVERYDAY occurrence.
To all of which I say AMEN. :)-->
In the mid to late 70's, there was a lot of care and love going on for those who were in hurt and *our* actions were done in spite of twi, not because of them. It doesn't take a class, or a set of books to learn about manifesting the Love of God to someone in need.
Once was a time when the Word did rule supreme (in the hearts of "grads"), but twi did an effective job of stifling that --- making sure they received the credit for deliverance's because of their teachings, rather than giving the glory to the Healer.
I had one similar incident happen to me (going door-to-door as a visiting wow in a different town), where a woman we prayed for received healing deliverance also. We mentioned a "local fellowship" (twig), and gave her the address. We forgot to get hers, or even her last name! :D-->
We told the local wow's about her, but with no last name, or any address, we couldn't tell them where she was. Never did find out if she showed up at the twig or not. We were (ahem! cough!) mildly castigated for not being *on top of it*, but that was about all that happened to us.
Her healing was real, whether or not she showed up at twig. It happened because of God, not twi.
I was on the Way International Marketing Dept. No big deal if no one remembers, but we were selling the Way books door to door.
I was going throughout an office bldg and I went throught the door of an office. Right in front of me was a man at a desk who looked awefully sick. I didn't introduce myself or anything. The first thing I said was, "Aww, you look awefully sick!"
He said, "I am."
The next thing I said was, "Do you believe in the power of prayer?"
Yes.
Do you believe that if I pray for you that you will be healed?
Yes.
Would you like me to pray for you right now?
Yes.
And I did.
And immediately I left.
I never did try to sell him anything or even tell him I WAS selling anything, invite him to fellowship or say anything about it. I never even did tell him my name.
I don't know what the heck he thought about what had just happened, but I bet he was healed.
Here is what I think. The good old days were good for those who were fortunate enough to be there. But consider this. They were good because you made a decision to walk out and believe God and see the things that he promised about healing come to pass.
Do it again. I don't care where you are; you have been placed in the body where it has pleased God - even if you feel totally displaced, you are surrounded by others who have been displaced - if not from TWI, from somewhere or not. It doesn't matter. As people have been saying, TWI is nothing, but God who gives the increase. Open your eyes. The fields might not appear ripe for harvest, but there is someone next to you who would like to grow and needs to be healed.
Heal them. If they don't know or believe, teach them - then heal them.
His yoke is really easy, and his burden really is light. Don't you remember? Ask him to remind you and open the door. All you have to do is walk through when it does. Remember?
Reminds me of an incident.......we were out WOW and going door-to-door witnessing (not my favorite thing to do, so I just changed my focus to helping people....not pushing anything). Anyways, me and this quiet guy were invited in by an older couple. Nice folks. The wife had a developing catarac (sp) in her left eye and her vision blurry.
She started crying when we talked about God's healing.....and softly, I told her that I'd pray with her if she wanted me to. She was very receptive to prayer and clasped my hands during my prayer.
Well, when she opened her eyes after the prayer.....no more blurred vision. She cried and her husband started crying and then, I cried tears of joy. It was one of those moments that you never forget.
Another five minutes passed as we talked about God's goodness, and then we made our way to the door. No, I never asked them to sign a green card.......it never crossed my mind.
If it's not about this Sky, it's not about anything!
look at georgio's post and thomas's post and i don't know what i think anymore
Well I think healing is available but is not "the norm". AFteer all, we are born to die. But I believe miracles can happen. What I don't believe is that TWI's borderline televangelist apporach was genuine. I had been "ministered to" by people who were trying to impress myself and way leaders. That kind of motivation won't impress God and in the end is totally dishonest. They were nothing more than long winded pseudo prayers laced with descriptive visions that were allegedly revelation. I was a kid and I knew it was crap.
Also remember that Thomas's post said "I don't know what the heck he thought about what had just happened, but I bet he was healed" So we don't even know what happened there.
I will say this: I was hit by a car on the WOW field and the entire Northeast WOW program had a prayer vigil (sp?) and my healing baffled the doctors. Prayer can work, healing can happen but not all prayers are answered and not all christians are healed of all maladies.
Don't let my incident of false prayer tell you anything more than: we were in a cult and weird things happened.
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diazbro
Actually I experienced more interesting events from a spiritual point of view BEFORE I joined TWI. I readily acknowledge that in TWI I encountered some well-intentioned people who just wanted to help (I give them the credit for this NOT the TWI) but once they tied "ministering" to the Way infrastructure (That is join up or you are a corpse) then it became much less about helping people and more about helping TWI's bank account.
I once heard a dedicated Wayfer tell a neighbor ,who was a christian who believed in divine healings, that she would gladly minister to him for his chronic illness but only if he came to fellowship. How whacked is that ? She was actually proud of this approach and couldn't see anything wrong with it. I don't recall JC placing conditions on his healings like that.
In any case once TWI became more about egos and kissing a$$ to please the Way bosses the blessings stopped. People became visibily harsher and bitter in their attitudes towards those who weren't with TWI (copouts, "corpses") which ,for an organization that relied heavily upon new recruits, was most odd. Its my claim that the blessings and ministering that did occur in the so called "good ole days" (someting I claim is the product of nostalgia) were a function of good-hearted people trying to do good. I give those people the credit - NOT TWI.
there is a dangerous form of logic that some of the misty-eyed old timers use from time to time that basically holds that if you ever experienced any good thing while in TWI then you should give VPW full credit for making it possible for you to meet such great people. Very odd indeed. Those people were quality folks before they got into TWI.
You remember that book "The Way Living In Love" ? (I like to call it "The Way Living in La-La Land"). That book is one of my favorite works of fiction as I NEVER saw TWI that was described in that book and I was around during that time. It made it seem like people were routinely getting healed of diseases and personal problems disappeared when you joined TWI. (Actually those problems didn't disappear - people joined TWI to avoid dealing with them). While I think E. Whiteside was a good writer it doens't change the fact that that book was basically a sales tools. Lots of us young, energtic kids were really trying to make a difference so it was obvious that many of us were very optimistic and idealistic perhaps at the expense of reality (a problem associated with youth) so we didn't see the lies and problems that had already crept into TWI. The fact that many were worshipping VPW instead of God was not seen as a problem - at least by most.
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Galen
Often ministering to people is just: listening to their problems, helping out when they need help, hosting a dinner, tuning a car, sharing a cookbook, babysitting a child, or maybe showing what you have been reading from the Scripture, maybe if someone has a question taking it first to the Lord in prayer and then showing them how to perform a word-study on the topic.
We have always been open to a meal with everyone in the fellowship, before we turn to the Word. Assuming that we dont go bowling instead.
To us such was how we have always ministered to those in our fellowship.
:-)
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Oakspear
Right on Galen!
If you can't listen to people, how are you going to minister to 'em?
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ex10
Gosh, what hairy said. Thank you for being a friend, when you didn't have to, when there was nothing in it for you. Thanks, hairy.
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skyrider
Reminds me of an incident.......we were out WOW and going door-to-door witnessing (not my favorite thing to do, so I just changed my focus to helping people....not pushing anything). Anyways, me and this quiet guy were invited in by an older couple. Nice folks. The wife had a developing catarac (sp) in her left eye and her vision blurry.
She started crying when we talked about God's healing.....and softly, I told her that I'd pray with her if she wanted me to. She was very receptive to prayer and clasped my hands during my prayer.
Well, when she opened her eyes after the prayer.....no more blurred vision. She cried and her husband started crying and then, I cried tears of joy. It was one of those moments that you never forget.
Another five minutes passed as we talked about God's goodness, and then we made our way to the door. No, I never asked them to sign a green card.......it never crossed my mind.
It was one of my treasured moments on the WOW field
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ex70sHouston
While listing is a big part of ministering, to me the big word is caring. When I care about a person everything else flows as it should and things happen.
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justloafing
Galen and Ex. Perfectly said. That is how it works today out in the real world. If you think reproof is ministering, that's nuts.
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Belle
Confronting the world with the accuracy of the verd doesn't really help anyone, does it?
skyrider, that's a great story! Those things happen, I believe, because of the great heart you and so many in the earlier years had to really love God and to really want to help people. TWI exploited that and took credit for all the good y'all did.
We had just moved so the hfc wanted our fellowship to go door to door and so we met at our house, split into groups and went. We went about knocking on doors and introducting ourselves as their new neighbors. No "sign the card" kind of witnessing. It was a great time and I could tell we were going to like the neighbors. When we got back we were heavily scolded for "not following direction". HELLO!! We WERE following direction. The ONE time my ex stood up for himself (and us) all of us knew he was right, but I was the only one to stand with him on the issue. Afterwards we were immediately and harshly reproved for arguing with the hfc in front of the whole fellowship.
--> You just can't win for losing with them.
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skyrider
Belle.....Thanks. The early days of twi1.....and the days BEFORE major-way-tree-structure..... were filled with unconditional love, caring, listening, helping, healing, etc. Giving and sharing and caring was an EVERYDAY occurrence.
To me.....ONE OF THE GREATEST DOWNFALLS OF TWI was vpw's corps training and agendas!!! With each passing year, the structure, and control, and language, and bondage was stifling the good-hearted and free-will giving of God's elect. IMO the corps program was the beginning of the end of God's blessing with twi. Legalism has prevailed!
Had I known this agenda, I never would have gone corps. Uuuuuugh.
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Georgio Jessio
I remember several times being prayed for when I was sick and having some blowhard get "revelation", close their eyes extra tight so they can visualize my ailments and say things like
"Lord I rebuke the excessive white blood cells from clogging Georgio's corpusles, I thank you for clearing the waves of nerve damage in his precious little head and for removing the clotting membranes in his lungs so he can breath freely and rejoice in your word. I pray that you heal the damaged arteries that are hindering oxogyn from flowing to his extremities and I thank you for restoring the damaged cells that are attacking his immune system and causing the pain that has been building behind his neck. I thank you for restoring the flow of calcium to his bones and for seperating the poison in his systen from his healthy blood. blah blah blah"
I would be thinking "I have a sprained ankle dude."
Meanwhile my mother would sit there crying at the amazing insight this guy had, seeing my illnesses and rebuking them. he was really "walking".
Freakin rediculous. I remember this happened once at a healing service at ROA where some total stranger wouldn't ask you what was wrong and would just launch into these irrelevent vision induced healing prayers. I remember thinking "when I am 18 I am SOOOOO out of here".
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dmiller
UncleHairy said:
Then Belle said:
And skyrider replied:
To all of which I say AMEN.
:)-->
In the mid to late 70's, there was a lot of care and love going on for those who were in hurt and *our* actions were done in spite of twi, not because of them. It doesn't take a class, or a set of books to learn about manifesting the Love of God to someone in need.
Once was a time when the Word did rule supreme (in the hearts of "grads"), but twi did an effective job of stifling that --- making sure they received the credit for deliverance's because of their teachings, rather than giving the glory to the Healer.
I had one similar incident happen to me (going door-to-door as a visiting wow in a different town), where a woman we prayed for received healing deliverance also. We mentioned a "local fellowship" (twig), and gave her the address. We forgot to get hers, or even her last name!
:D-->
We told the local wow's about her, but with no last name, or any address, we couldn't tell them where she was. Never did find out if she showed up at the twig or not. We were (ahem! cough!) mildly castigated for not being *on top of it*, but that was about all that happened to us.
Her healing was real, whether or not she showed up at twig. It happened because of God, not twi.
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dmiller
BTW --- UncleHairy. This is a great thread! You're taking me back to when the
*good old days* were really good. Thanks!
:)-->
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Tom
I was on the Way International Marketing Dept. No big deal if no one remembers, but we were selling the Way books door to door.
I was going throughout an office bldg and I went throught the door of an office. Right in front of me was a man at a desk who looked awefully sick. I didn't introduce myself or anything. The first thing I said was, "Aww, you look awefully sick!"
He said, "I am."
The next thing I said was, "Do you believe in the power of prayer?"
And I did.
And immediately I left.
I never did try to sell him anything or even tell him I WAS selling anything, invite him to fellowship or say anything about it. I never even did tell him my name.
I don't know what the heck he thought about what had just happened, but I bet he was healed.
Here is what I think. The good old days were good for those who were fortunate enough to be there. But consider this. They were good because you made a decision to walk out and believe God and see the things that he promised about healing come to pass.
Do it again. I don't care where you are; you have been placed in the body where it has pleased God - even if you feel totally displaced, you are surrounded by others who have been displaced - if not from TWI, from somewhere or not. It doesn't matter. As people have been saying, TWI is nothing, but God who gives the increase. Open your eyes. The fields might not appear ripe for harvest, but there is someone next to you who would like to grow and needs to be healed.
Heal them. If they don't know or believe, teach them - then heal them.
His yoke is really easy, and his burden really is light. Don't you remember? Ask him to remind you and open the door. All you have to do is walk through when it does. Remember?
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justloafing
Wow Thomas, That kind of talk (spirit) is what I remember. Fantastic post.
:)-->
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excathedra
haven't read this whole thread
i look at georgio's post and thomas's post and i don't know what i think anymore
(ps. i did way marketing too
:)-->)
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A la prochaine
If it's not about this Sky, it's not about anything!
thanks for your story. it healed me.
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excathedra
that's a beautiful story. i'm glad i saw it now.
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Georgio Jessio
Well I think healing is available but is not "the norm". AFteer all, we are born to die. But I believe miracles can happen. What I don't believe is that TWI's borderline televangelist apporach was genuine. I had been "ministered to" by people who were trying to impress myself and way leaders. That kind of motivation won't impress God and in the end is totally dishonest. They were nothing more than long winded pseudo prayers laced with descriptive visions that were allegedly revelation. I was a kid and I knew it was crap.
Also remember that Thomas's post said "I don't know what the heck he thought about what had just happened, but I bet he was healed" So we don't even know what happened there.
I will say this: I was hit by a car on the WOW field and the entire Northeast WOW program had a prayer vigil (sp?) and my healing baffled the doctors. Prayer can work, healing can happen but not all prayers are answered and not all christians are healed of all maladies.
Don't let my incident of false prayer tell you anything more than: we were in a cult and weird things happened.
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krys
"False prayer" isn't really prayer, now....is it?
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Georgio Jessio
But it can sound so pretty.
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excathedra
thank you georgio i see what you mean
i hope your white blood cells are well
;)-->
;)-->
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krys
That depends on who's listening!
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ex10
I think sometimes really "ministering" to someone could include finding a good therapist, or psychologist, or doctor.
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WhiteDove
ROTFLMAO Ex
Do you speak from your years of experience here in the nut capital of the world?
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