I went to Rome City IC and I hated it. If the F-corps (1983) wasn't hitting their kids with wooden spoons the leadership (BM) there was making insufferable edicts, i.e.
"If you are too sick to come to class you are too sick to eat and he did not let anyone come to meals if they missed class."
I did LOVE the couple that was my twig leaders
but I forget their names. She was a hairdresser, I think from California. And the assistant corps leadership -- the woman -- I forget her name but she seemed grounded. One woman who worked as a hairdresser there was dear and I forget her name as well. I think I forget because the over-all experience was not a good one.
To me, there were nasty legalistic people everywhere and with few exceptions I found no enjoyment there. Ugh! Many of us 11th would get together and discuss how we thought we were in he!!.
I am sure Suz from meeting you here, I probably would have loved you if I had gotten to know you. I wish I was in twig with you for those nice times eating cookies and drinking coffee sound GREAT!!!!
But that campus was one of the WORSE parts of my corps experience. Sorry, I truly am.
Nothing personal to you, I bet you had trouble with some of the same people. And I am glad you made some of the 11th's visit sweet.
If you liked Eric then we would have enjoyed each other. Eric and I were LEAD together. He chased me around with a torantula (spelling).
And was a laid back fun guy!
Dot Matrix
[This message was edited by Dot Matrix on August 26, 2003 at 22:05.]
JL with all his faults was better as a leader IMO then BM or that jerk out there at the ranch or LCM.
I think what appealed to me about John was he was not a frightening person. As the years went on he,IMO, became an egotistical weird duck. But our first year he was decent.
The corps became a ball of confusion to me as the first year in VPW tried to get me when he asked me to his coach and I declined his advances. My biggest fear was to be talked about behind my back and set up as a terrible person because I declined the MOG.
I cried a lot.
When I was not worried about being disgraced by those lunatics we all admired, I quietly found some great people. But I lived with the fear of having to be with those that were into the sex stuff and having them slam me because I would not partake.
Now, I am proud of my stand. Back then I felt like I had a sign on my head.
How many of you knew in res. about the "sexual freedom, bless the MOG" kind of thinking?
Not trying to stiffle your humor TGN, but I just wondered how many folks had no clue and were able to carry on.
One day at a lunch table it was all 11th corps women and we began to gingerly (checking each other out for saftey) speak of the things going on in the leadership. I got the impression we all knew and all hated what we knew at that table.
Did you guys know? Because I think not knowing would have been a much more "fun corps" then those of us who "knew" corps.
Just always wanted to know...
Then we can go back to TGN's fun and Vickles giggles.
I guess the men who I knew from the 11th corpse were the ones who loved RC. I guess you single women just didn't understand us moms. It wasn't an easy road, having to leave our children on a regular basis, come home and take control again, and again. You can't imagine the heartache of having to ask a stranger to take care of our kids, possibly even someone who we NEVER would ask, but we HAD to do it. It was tough on all of us.
Once my 2 yr old was running down the isle (6am morning teaching) in the chapel and BM yelled, "Daniel Wickler you get back there to your mom NOW!"
he got the idea and skedaddled back to my lap. Now I have to laugh. You guys that are moms now think about having to live as a corpse person AND try raising kids, deprive them of their extended families and having to keep them under subjection a zillion times more than your own selves. Leagalistic group f7?? funny, the time I was skinny dipping in the pool out back I never though of myself as legalistic.
BTW the family I believe you were refering to was Bo and Joanne Marples.
BUT I was also one of the hairdressers, much to the dismay of Sue Peterson, who was from NY and also one of the hairdressers. My license was expired and she really didn't like me working there. But I loved it. When I didn't have anyone's hair to cut I would walk the campus and find staff or someone who had time and have them come up, just to stay busy.
There were some pretty haughty f7 but then I always found them in every corpse, NOT just f7 thats for sure, and if you would have met any f5 you would have known what f7 were imitating themselves after, talk about leagalistic!.
Funny you see JL different than me. I always felt he was just a little bit better than the others, IN HIS OWN MIND. (not mine)
Interesting the viewpoints of campus's. I hated Emporia, hated the feel of it, hated all the rules and the policing of the campus, hated the narcs (11th corpse that would "remind" me of what I was doing wrong) Mind you I only "got" to go there a little, since my darlings kept me at RC....
One of my own corpse sisters years after graduation told me she commended me for being in the corpse with a 2 yr old and an 8 yr old. She only had a teen when she was in, and after she got out-decided I must have been superwoman to be in the corpse with little kids. (she was Jenkensen's sister even). So perspective is everything. I was a rebel IN the coprse, still maintaining that standard in life.
[This message was edited by suz on August 27, 2003 at 11:42.]
So I tried to go to sleep and couldn't. Bear with me I just need to add one thing, or maybe two. I meant you 11th corpse women didn't understand us SINGLE moms.
That WC program you were in--we were also. I got up at 4am to run, so I could do laundry at 5am (against the rules) so that I could get ready for whatever the day held. You got up in the morning and got your own a$$ ready for the day, I did it for 3. You ate breakfast and went to your class or job, I had to take one kid to the school bus and one to the West Wing for childrens activities, THEN get my butt to wherever. Lunch I picked up a kid to eat with us THEN get him to take his little nap so I could either go to job or work. Dinner I had 3 at the table, once again little expexted waybots that were supposed to be perfect. I went LEAD and LIGHTBEARERS, HQ for a week, Surrounding area gigs, I moved whenever they called to change our ROOMS, usually 2 rooms subjecting myself to room mates not of my choice and sometimes my children got the same thing. I had to write a research paper, while juggling whoever would take my little ones so I could. My kids spent more time with strangers than their own mother!! So while we were with them to ENJOY them was most difficult. I had to get my tuition just like you singles, PLUS pay for 2 kids, intrim year-expenses for 3 of us. Lucky I was with Nancy Kegle. She loved my boys and we had a ball together in NJ. But otherwise I guess the guys of the 11th corpse liked my boys so I was lucky. Maybe they saw us single women struggle as single moms, which brings me to my 2nd point.
Single women with kids. Most of us didn't date either. Not just cause we were exausted...It was the 11th corpse guys-99% of them were afraid of us. Why?? In Dave Hanson's words, "You are to strong and being an instant Dad scares me". Dave was a doll, much to young for me anyway, but a sweety and I appreciated his honesty about us women with children. We didn't date cause also when we got a night off usually it was to spend with our kids! If we wern't running off to save the world somewhere we tried our best to be moms. Our expextations from leadership was absolutely stupid to be perfect little waycorpse and to have these perfect little children whom we had to subject to the wierdest conditions a mother would ever give a kid. I had to apologize to my children when they got older. Some of it was good, some really really bad.
So once again your perspective was from a woman who dropped in on a situation (RC) and only saw one little part of it. I wish you could have seen my kids when I came home. It took sometimes weeks before they didn't re-act to me even leaving for class!! The little guy just didnt' understand! Hell I didn't either! I think most of our kids were scared for life!
Dillard always got a kick out of my youngest cause he ate lunch at my table. He was always understanding of the woes of single women with their little ones. The Mosers also seemed to like the little kids, but not having any themselves at that time was different for them. I bet they have changed now!. The guy who married Alison Heaney watched my kids once for a week, he got my room all to himself and loved taking care of my kids. I never remember any 11th corpse women ever offering to help with the kids. I'm sure someone tackled you for help, depending where you lived, but I never had any offers from women.
Anyway somehow I too graduated. Even paid my tuition for the 3 of us! God forgive me for ever being there and putting my kids thru the living hell they must have gone thru at times.
My hindsite is a different perspective for sure.
Those of you with kids NOW think about going in the corpse with twi's expectations and YOURs. We were good little waybots wern't we??
As I said from seeing you here I probably would have enjoyed you. My dislike of the campus had nothing to do with you personally or the children. I had to watch kids often at HQS.
Perhaps I am wrong, but I feel I have hurt you and I wanted to apologize for it.
The kids, the fact that there were single Mom's there was not my bad experience.
Here are some of them:
We had a guy who was in the LEAD accident in the truck that went over the cliff. His back was a mess and he was in pain and when he bent over to do certain things he had nerve pain shoot up his back.
He was praying quietly outside for healing. He got a thought and acted on it, thinking God had healed him. He did a cartwheel, like the man in PFAL raised his arm.
Immediately, he KNEW he was not healed as he had severe pain. He no sooner did the cartwheel when some FC ran to BM and said he had been faking his injuries. BM called him into the office and went off on him. The 11th C guy kept trying to explain but BM would not let him speak. They were ready to toss him out of the corps over it. The gossip went around the FC and people were all making comments to him.
Another 11th corps guy got very ill. I asked what happened to S, have not seen him for 3 days ? I was told he was VERY sick.
I went up to see him and he looked terrible. I asked if anyone had been to see him or bring him soup or anything. And he said no. (The problem was BM made the edict that you could not eat if you were too sick to come to class.)
He was so ill by then and feeling guilty of his illness. He was in rough shape. I asked him if he had been drinking water and he handed me his empty bottle and I filled it.
He wanted some fruit. I went to the kitchen and was going to get him some fruit but an FC was there. She snapped, "you can't just come in anytime you want and expect to get food!"
I told her someone was sick and only wanted a little fruit. She quoted BM and snapped how I should not defy the MOG.
Well, I got him some fruit after she left.
I tried to get him some medical help but none of the leadership would listen. So, I called Mrs. Weirwille. She had a car sent over to pick him up and let him recover in her home. Turned out it was SERIOUS what he had. His legs had swollen to two or three times their size. If it had been let go it would have been bad for him.
Another night, I had to clean the bathroom. My work person TOLD me to not let anyone in the bathroom. No matter what even if they beg.
She told me NO EXCUSES. She had been a never ending thorn. My review had that I did not listen to leadership on it.
So, a person gets up and comes into the bathroom. I tell them I am sorry but you need to use the one down the hall. She flipped out on me. I explained I did not really care if she went or not but I was told to NOT let anyone use it. I was sorry but I was trying to follow my orders. Person continued to yell, I told her look by the time you are finished yelling you could have walked to the other end of the hall, it is not my fault you cannot use it. She said, "Well, I am using it." And she did.
Now, I didn't REPORT her. I let it go. She reported me. I was called in because I told someone they could not use the bathroom.
I said, "What do you want from me? When I listen; you yell. When I use common sense; you yell. I have no idea how to win here.
Then one day, one of the woman there had put some of her freshly washed sweaters outside to get the nice breeze smell. I thought it was a good idea so I put a few of mine out there. I was pulled out of a meeting and told I made the place look like a New York slum house. I told her I was sorry I had seen someone else do it and thought ot looked like a good idea. I am sorry I wouldn't do it again. She followed me outside yelling, back inside yelling and down the hall. I told her if you have a problem go tell leadership because I am not going to have you continuing to yell at me.
So you see nothing was personal against you. And nothing against kids, but I was offended and still am over how many kids I saw hit by them. Again, this has nothing to do with you. You may have NEVER struck your children.
I am sure having kids in the corps was difficult. I respect the difficulties. But this was not about that. It was about the things I described and more like them. I think I do recall you, there was another hairdresser in the "shop" who was easy going and kind.
When I went in for Sue I met her and she was warm and inviting.
Joanne and Bo! That is them. They were not legalistic but very cool and easy to get along with. When I told them some of my experiences they were understanding and He said something like, "Some people are a$$ holes."
I am unclear why you made it so personal, or perhaps I misunderstand the tone of your post. I never meant to hurt you. If you told me there were some babies in the 11th and some rat finks I would have agreed with you.
Perhaps, you were fortunate to be around "cool" people at RC. Thank God! Because all you had to do would have been exhausting had you have had to deal with the legalistic situations I ran into.
As I said in my post:
quote: I am sure Suz from meeting you here, I probably would have loved you if I had gotten to know you. I wish I was in twig with you for those nice times eating cookies and drinking coffee sound GREAT!!!!
But that campus was one of the WORSE parts of my corps experience. Sorry, I truly am.
Nothing personal to you, I bet you had trouble with some of the same people. And I am glad you made some of the 11th's visit sweet
But even though I sympathize with you on how hard it was to do all you did, my experience there was still a bad one.
I could tell you all the stuff we did at Emporia, and it would not alter your experience. I wan't real fond of Emporia, truth be told I liked my time at HQS the best. A lot of leadership there or staffers were folks I grew up with in the word. Make no mistake there were a$$ holes there as well.
You did not like Emporia, and you did not like JL. I accept that and it really does not matter to me. Because your dislike of Emporia has nothing to do with me.
I hope you can see my dislike of RC has nothing to do with you. I seem to have pushed a button that makes you feel as though you need to defend RC or the F-corps. I did not mean too and I hope you have recovered from feeling it was a personal attack, if I am hearing the tone correctly, I seem to have hurt and angered you. PLEASE accept my apology, I never meant to hurt YOU.
Again, you are probably a wonderful person. But I still hated the RC campus. These statements are independant of each other. Somehow I think you heard I hated my time at RC and met legalist people = I dislike and do not respect YOU. Let me assure you one has nothing to do with the other.
Again, I am sorry my words were not written better so I didn't hurt you. Sorry.
BTW, We were all in a cult.
I hate that too ;)-->.
Dot Matrix
[This message was edited by Dot Matrix on August 27, 2003 at 20:33.]
No I never thought you even came close to making it personal against me, I honestly don't now or never did care who did/does/doesn't like or dislike me.
As for hitting our kids, once again it was expected for us to make sure our kids were, "in subjection" and it was something we were taught to do! (God forgive me once again)
I was just trying to show you the climate there at RC. Women (single)(and married) were expected to leave their kids and when they came home the kids just didn't get it. Many women were under a lot of stress. ( I know that is the same same as any campus)
I understand about being sick too. When I was sick I was still supossed to get my kids to meals, when they were sick, once I even had to miss a class cause my kids temp was 105. When the tc came to visit he was his tigger bouncy self and he thought I was looking for an excuse to stay out of the riviting class I was missing. When I went on lightbearers I came home to find out my oldest had blood poisining, and God forbid if he could get any help until my babysitter came up with the $50 to pay the doc. Twi wasn't going to dish out any money!!! I think the way the "leadership" at RC was no different than any twi people. It ran downhill, they did what they were taught, they were who they imitated.(BM, JL, CM, vpw) none of them were any different in my opinion.
Hey on lead Billy Grahme got in a car wreck and had to come home cause she broke her leg. They made a special lead for her....(and they were the original people who owned Tinny NM) We also had a girl, on lead, who got her eye poked and had to wear a patch on it...she still had to belay down the mtn... my back pack on lead was much to heavy hiking in, I fell over numerous times,(turtle effect face down) then I got dry heaves and had hypothermia type symptoms, they (mighty big of them) decided that maybe a back pack that weighed 180# was a bit to heavy for a girl of 120#. Once again, mighty big of them to relieve some of it. And lead were no different than any of the leaders. So it just didnt' matter where we were, they were groomed to make life hell for most.
The only fun I had at Emporia was pretending I didn't know the rules and breaking them...lol
gotta love that, but then I did it also at RC and HQ whenever I could.
Anyway I will not take up any more time on this tread, its sposed to be fun, not a big whine.
But if you find Dave Hanson tell him I love him dearly.
I am so relieved that I did not hurt you! (Whew, wipes away a bead of sweat)
You can whine, I certainly do and did. Somehow I feel safer speaking with some of the people that lived through the corps. I feel they understand better the HE LL we lived through.
WHY were they so weird about illness there?
I got a virus and was very sick. I never had this happen before or since but it seemed to settle in my knee for a day and my leg was jerking hard snapping my knee. To this day my knee is weakened.
The assistant corps leader woman saw me corps night as I ran out to vomit and said ,"Why are you out of bed." I told her I was told to believe and go to corps night.
She said illness is illness. If you are down for a few days that is just normal, you go back to bed. I loved her! She was the only reasonable "Big" leader I saw there.
It just seemed like people were unreasonable and delighted in getting others in trouble. ( I saw it in other places) but my experience there it seemed to be a dominant theme.
DOT, I was married in residence. That was a whole different experience, at least the part about getting invited to the coach. It never happened to me, my wife or any of our married friends. I think, the married people at Emporia or HQ had a "different" experience when it comes to sexual related issues. Less blatant.
I NEVER suspected that VP was a predator. If I had known it, I would have dropped out on my own or never gone in to start with. I came from an abusive family and I know it is not something that just “pops up†and has no repercussions.
I knew very few people that were “close†to VP. Allison He_ _ _ y used to work closely with VP and she was one of the nicest humans I ever met in my life. I guess, I am saying that people like her tended to make me think that he was probably on the level. I mean a nice girl like her would never…. I mean never…. (and, I am not saying that she ever did… by the way I liked her husband; we were in the corps together… a good man, I think.)
For reasons like Allison (nice and sweet), contrasted by sketchy sexual allegations from people that had dropped out, I categorized the sex stuff as not credible. Like interviewing the former spouse of a recent divorce, not a very good place to get an “objective†view of what the other person is really like. I am sorry to say that all the junk that went on was way below my radar. So much for “To acquire an in-depth spiritual perception and awareness.â€
Personally, our married experience was sheltered from your experiences probably for the very reason that we were married… Except in our final year when invitations from leaders to get involved in awkward situations started to happen. This happened to both of us. I started to wonder if ALL the "leaders" had some sort of inner weakness that caused them to be needy and weak of character, male or female… married or single... I didn't like it AT ALL… the notion that some “leader†has needs, and that justifies sex so that his needs are fulfilled so he can fulfill the needs of his ministry. What an absolute truckload of ****!!
Nonetheless, this sort of sexual behavior crosses way over the line when applied to people that are “under†a person’s authority. I think that sort of behavior is pathetic, weak, and (even in cases of consent) is loaded with destructive ripples that carry on for years and years.
Had we known this sort of thing was happening regularly, we (the wife and I) would have left and not graduated. We knew about the premarital sex, and some about the lives of our “single†brethren, and we turned a blind eye to it… because we did the same things before we got married.
But extramarital sex was OBVOIUSLY wrong BUT was not obvious to us until after we graduated. These problems manifested AFTER graduation.
Dot, Ex, Ginger,… to any of the women on these boards that were involved in a sexual way, there is nothing that I can say except… I think what you experienced probably forever changed you. I think such an atmosphere is a horrible tragedy for a young woman to be placed in.
What you ladies have shared has taught me that there is a cost to turning a blind eye on evil once you know it is there; and there is a higher cost of delayed disclosure. It is just all so damned ugly. The selfish, conniving, deflowering or a woman is just So God Damned Ugly!! (And yes, I think, that is a good use of the phrase). These men behaved not like loving leaders, they behaved like heathen conquerors!!
And when it comes to the perpetrators, just let me say, I have two beautiful teenage daughters… and if some nut like LCM or VP ever messed with them, I would have a difficult time not shooting the bastard right in the balls, so he would live, but never forget what a weak and pathetic POS he was…. and then I would cry…. cry for years…. and weep for my girls… because I missed the opportunity to stop the hurt in my daughters lives. No manner of revenge or “justice†can ever be considered a restoration. And that, ladies, and gentlemen, … is a tragedy.
Dot, you are right, I joke about things in residence; this was the superficial world I saw. Most of it WAS a joke, to me. But when I think about what went on under the surface, it makes me want to weep and mourn.
Yes, much of what happened appears to be actionable in courts of law, but even if more action were taken, no suit could ever bring restoration. There will be no restoration in the lives of people involved in the tragedy called the Way by any court.
I have to believe that restoration is possible through God. And I do.
But until that happens, there is only one way to categorize what many experienced – evil at what they thought was the hand of good. TWI was just a controversial ministry on the surface to SOME… but to OTHERS, it was Satanic.
Thanks for expressing yourself!!! It was very evil.
I once confronted a bc and went to the lc. There was four of us living together in a group home with the bc. I couldn't figure out what was the problem with the other girl and one night we went out for a drink and I asked her what the problem was. She told me the bc told her that she needed to meet the 'needs' of the mog (which was him). It was eating away at her and she just couldn't take it anymore. I believe she was on the verge of a mental breakdown. I called the lc and they had her move into the lc's home for 'healing'. Nothing happened to the bc and he continued with the next girl that moved in. His fiance at the time was in rez. She came for a visit and told me it was ok with her whatever he did because he was mog and he needed to have his needs met. They ended up getting married and he ended up being a lc. So he got a promotion. Here he was ruining beautiful women for his own selfish needs and got a promotion out of it. It stinks!!!!!
Ok!! I will not try to be a nice person...ok? I will not!!
and that, ladies and gentlemen, is/was the way in a nutshell--flaunt the truth of God and His only Son to take care of your own lusts--followed by a bump-up in responsibility!!!
...But I got the Word--so it's all good...
man, how fricking disgusting--and who started it all and approved of it all and was el presidente over it all...hmmm, could it be.....
quote:and that, ladies and gentlemen, is/was the way in a nutshell--flaunt the truth of God and His only Son to take care of your own lusts--followed by a bump-up in responsibility!!!
I looked at the link you had up there and read Marsha's story. Never read it before, until now.
It gave me nightmares. I am not kidding. Last night, in particular.
If someone can read her story and brush it off like dandruff, then they have no sense of proportion or decency and are probably themselves, predators. This type of abuse was WAY OUT OVER ANY LINE!!!
TWI - behind closed doors - trained many "leaders" to be wolves. I guess that is why I never fit in with the headquarters crowd. They triggered anxiety attacks in me; I just didn’t know that was what these attacks were called. I never witnessed what I read from Marsha… but my guts were heaving in the presence of such great “leadersâ€.
I am sickened in the pit of my stomach at what I read. Gruesome acts of using people. It was like reading about rape between a father and daughter. No one can should underestimate the power of phrases like “THE Man of God for The Whole World†and “Father in the Word†and then, on the other hand, MINIMIZE or Excuse such heinous acts of psychological and sexual abuse. The grandiose catch phrases AMPLIFIED the authority of VP and others…. which MAGNIFIED their offences.
I am speechless. I am ashamed that I was ever associated with such a raunchy system!
And as far as what I learned from TWI… I have re-learned almost every single doctrinal tittle and jot. And when it comes to Truth, they FAILED to offer us Christ… and in His stead they offered convoluted doctrines and empty promises and limp principles and pathetic word studies; all as DIVERSIONS from the man of Galilee. Without Christ, the PERSON, there is NO TRUTH! CES and others say they wanted to add Christ back in to what we learned, and then we would be whole. What a crock.
So what did I get for my 17 years of involvement… ??? It appears I was spared from the worst, but others were far less fortunate.
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Too Gray Now
Hey there you guys - - - I know that some of you have been praying for my Cancer situation - and I just got my latest results back last week - (just in time for my 30 anniversary with Mrs. Too Gray.
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vickles
aaaawwww suz wish I could have been there it sounded like fun. Of course anywhere you go it would be fun!!!!
Ok!! I will not try to be a nice person...ok? I will not!!
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Dot Matrix
I went to Rome City IC and I hated it. If the F-corps (1983) wasn't hitting their kids with wooden spoons the leadership (BM) there was making insufferable edicts, i.e.
"If you are too sick to come to class you are too sick to eat and he did not let anyone come to meals if they missed class."
I did LOVE the couple that was my twig leaders
but I forget their names. She was a hairdresser, I think from California. And the assistant corps leadership -- the woman -- I forget her name but she seemed grounded. One woman who worked as a hairdresser there was dear and I forget her name as well. I think I forget because the over-all experience was not a good one.
To me, there were nasty legalistic people everywhere and with few exceptions I found no enjoyment there. Ugh! Many of us 11th would get together and discuss how we thought we were in he!!.
I am sure Suz from meeting you here, I probably would have loved you if I had gotten to know you. I wish I was in twig with you for those nice times eating cookies and drinking coffee sound GREAT!!!!
But that campus was one of the WORSE parts of my corps experience. Sorry, I truly am.
Nothing personal to you, I bet you had trouble with some of the same people. And I am glad you made some of the 11th's visit sweet.
If you liked Eric then we would have enjoyed each other. Eric and I were LEAD together. He chased me around with a torantula (spelling).
And was a laid back fun guy!
Dot Matrix
[This message was edited by Dot Matrix on August 26, 2003 at 22:05.]
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Dot Matrix
JL with all his faults was better as a leader IMO then BM or that jerk out there at the ranch or LCM.
I think what appealed to me about John was he was not a frightening person. As the years went on he,IMO, became an egotistical weird duck. But our first year he was decent.
The corps became a ball of confusion to me as the first year in VPW tried to get me when he asked me to his coach and I declined his advances. My biggest fear was to be talked about behind my back and set up as a terrible person because I declined the MOG.
I cried a lot.
When I was not worried about being disgraced by those lunatics we all admired, I quietly found some great people. But I lived with the fear of having to be with those that were into the sex stuff and having them slam me because I would not partake.
Now, I am proud of my stand. Back then I felt like I had a sign on my head.
How many of you knew in res. about the "sexual freedom, bless the MOG" kind of thinking?
Not trying to stiffle your humor TGN, but I just wondered how many folks had no clue and were able to carry on.
One day at a lunch table it was all 11th corps women and we began to gingerly (checking each other out for saftey) speak of the things going on in the leadership. I got the impression we all knew and all hated what we knew at that table.
Did you guys know? Because I think not knowing would have been a much more "fun corps" then those of us who "knew" corps.
Just always wanted to know...
Then we can go back to TGN's fun and Vickles giggles.
Dot Matrix
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vickles
Dot,
I knew, that was the start of my downfall with twi. Couldn't keep quiet about certain subjects.
Ok!! I will not try to be a nice person...ok? I will not!!
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suz
I guess the men who I knew from the 11th corpse were the ones who loved RC. I guess you single women just didn't understand us moms. It wasn't an easy road, having to leave our children on a regular basis, come home and take control again, and again. You can't imagine the heartache of having to ask a stranger to take care of our kids, possibly even someone who we NEVER would ask, but we HAD to do it. It was tough on all of us.
Once my 2 yr old was running down the isle (6am morning teaching) in the chapel and BM yelled, "Daniel Wickler you get back there to your mom NOW!"
he got the idea and skedaddled back to my lap. Now I have to laugh. You guys that are moms now think about having to live as a corpse person AND try raising kids, deprive them of their extended families and having to keep them under subjection a zillion times more than your own selves. Leagalistic group f7?? funny, the time I was skinny dipping in the pool out back I never though of myself as legalistic.
BTW the family I believe you were refering to was Bo and Joanne Marples.
BUT I was also one of the hairdressers, much to the dismay of Sue Peterson, who was from NY and also one of the hairdressers. My license was expired and she really didn't like me working there. But I loved it. When I didn't have anyone's hair to cut I would walk the campus and find staff or someone who had time and have them come up, just to stay busy.
There were some pretty haughty f7 but then I always found them in every corpse, NOT just f7 thats for sure, and if you would have met any f5 you would have known what f7 were imitating themselves after, talk about leagalistic!.
Funny you see JL different than me. I always felt he was just a little bit better than the others, IN HIS OWN MIND. (not mine)
Interesting the viewpoints of campus's. I hated Emporia, hated the feel of it, hated all the rules and the policing of the campus, hated the narcs (11th corpse that would "remind" me of what I was doing wrong) Mind you I only "got" to go there a little, since my darlings kept me at RC....
One of my own corpse sisters years after graduation told me she commended me for being in the corpse with a 2 yr old and an 8 yr old. She only had a teen when she was in, and after she got out-decided I must have been superwoman to be in the corpse with little kids. (she was Jenkensen's sister even). So perspective is everything. I was a rebel IN the coprse, still maintaining that standard in life.
[This message was edited by suz on August 27, 2003 at 11:42.]
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Tom Strange
Dot... please get to work on your memory pegs and report back to us with all of the names... thank you, now... gotta go back to our thread...
... big hitter, the lama...
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suz
So I tried to go to sleep and couldn't. Bear with me I just need to add one thing, or maybe two. I meant you 11th corpse women didn't understand us SINGLE moms.
That WC program you were in--we were also. I got up at 4am to run, so I could do laundry at 5am (against the rules) so that I could get ready for whatever the day held. You got up in the morning and got your own a$$ ready for the day, I did it for 3. You ate breakfast and went to your class or job, I had to take one kid to the school bus and one to the West Wing for childrens activities, THEN get my butt to wherever. Lunch I picked up a kid to eat with us THEN get him to take his little nap so I could either go to job or work. Dinner I had 3 at the table, once again little expexted waybots that were supposed to be perfect. I went LEAD and LIGHTBEARERS, HQ for a week, Surrounding area gigs, I moved whenever they called to change our ROOMS, usually 2 rooms subjecting myself to room mates not of my choice and sometimes my children got the same thing. I had to write a research paper, while juggling whoever would take my little ones so I could. My kids spent more time with strangers than their own mother!! So while we were with them to ENJOY them was most difficult. I had to get my tuition just like you singles, PLUS pay for 2 kids, intrim year-expenses for 3 of us. Lucky I was with Nancy Kegle. She loved my boys and we had a ball together in NJ. But otherwise I guess the guys of the 11th corpse liked my boys so I was lucky. Maybe they saw us single women struggle as single moms, which brings me to my 2nd point.
Single women with kids. Most of us didn't date either. Not just cause we were exausted...It was the 11th corpse guys-99% of them were afraid of us. Why?? In Dave Hanson's words, "You are to strong and being an instant Dad scares me". Dave was a doll, much to young for me anyway, but a sweety and I appreciated his honesty about us women with children. We didn't date cause also when we got a night off usually it was to spend with our kids! If we wern't running off to save the world somewhere we tried our best to be moms. Our expextations from leadership was absolutely stupid to be perfect little waycorpse and to have these perfect little children whom we had to subject to the wierdest conditions a mother would ever give a kid. I had to apologize to my children when they got older. Some of it was good, some really really bad.
So once again your perspective was from a woman who dropped in on a situation (RC) and only saw one little part of it. I wish you could have seen my kids when I came home. It took sometimes weeks before they didn't re-act to me even leaving for class!! The little guy just didnt' understand! Hell I didn't either! I think most of our kids were scared for life!
Dillard always got a kick out of my youngest cause he ate lunch at my table. He was always understanding of the woes of single women with their little ones. The Mosers also seemed to like the little kids, but not having any themselves at that time was different for them. I bet they have changed now!. The guy who married Alison Heaney watched my kids once for a week, he got my room all to himself and loved taking care of my kids. I never remember any 11th corpse women ever offering to help with the kids. I'm sure someone tackled you for help, depending where you lived, but I never had any offers from women.
Anyway somehow I too graduated. Even paid my tuition for the 3 of us! God forgive me for ever being there and putting my kids thru the living hell they must have gone thru at times.
My hindsite is a different perspective for sure.
Those of you with kids NOW think about going in the corpse with twi's expectations and YOURs. We were good little waybots wern't we??
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Tom Strange
(((Suz)))
(((Suz's kids)))
It is amazing just what we did when we were brainwashed isn't it!
te quero mucho
... big hitter, the lama...
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Dot Matrix
As I said from seeing you here I probably would have enjoyed you. My dislike of the campus had nothing to do with you personally or the children. I had to watch kids often at HQS.
Perhaps I am wrong, but I feel I have hurt you and I wanted to apologize for it.
The kids, the fact that there were single Mom's there was not my bad experience.
Here are some of them:
We had a guy who was in the LEAD accident in the truck that went over the cliff. His back was a mess and he was in pain and when he bent over to do certain things he had nerve pain shoot up his back.
He was praying quietly outside for healing. He got a thought and acted on it, thinking God had healed him. He did a cartwheel, like the man in PFAL raised his arm.
Immediately, he KNEW he was not healed as he had severe pain. He no sooner did the cartwheel when some FC ran to BM and said he had been faking his injuries. BM called him into the office and went off on him. The 11th C guy kept trying to explain but BM would not let him speak. They were ready to toss him out of the corps over it. The gossip went around the FC and people were all making comments to him.
Another 11th corps guy got very ill. I asked what happened to S, have not seen him for 3 days ? I was told he was VERY sick.
I went up to see him and he looked terrible. I asked if anyone had been to see him or bring him soup or anything. And he said no. (The problem was BM made the edict that you could not eat if you were too sick to come to class.)
He was so ill by then and feeling guilty of his illness. He was in rough shape. I asked him if he had been drinking water and he handed me his empty bottle and I filled it.
He wanted some fruit. I went to the kitchen and was going to get him some fruit but an FC was there. She snapped, "you can't just come in anytime you want and expect to get food!"
I told her someone was sick and only wanted a little fruit. She quoted BM and snapped how I should not defy the MOG.
Well, I got him some fruit after she left.
I tried to get him some medical help but none of the leadership would listen. So, I called Mrs. Weirwille. She had a car sent over to pick him up and let him recover in her home. Turned out it was SERIOUS what he had. His legs had swollen to two or three times their size. If it had been let go it would have been bad for him.
Another night, I had to clean the bathroom. My work person TOLD me to not let anyone in the bathroom. No matter what even if they beg.
She told me NO EXCUSES. She had been a never ending thorn. My review had that I did not listen to leadership on it.
So, a person gets up and comes into the bathroom. I tell them I am sorry but you need to use the one down the hall. She flipped out on me. I explained I did not really care if she went or not but I was told to NOT let anyone use it. I was sorry but I was trying to follow my orders. Person continued to yell, I told her look by the time you are finished yelling you could have walked to the other end of the hall, it is not my fault you cannot use it. She said, "Well, I am using it." And she did.
Now, I didn't REPORT her. I let it go. She reported me. I was called in because I told someone they could not use the bathroom.
I said, "What do you want from me? When I listen; you yell. When I use common sense; you yell. I have no idea how to win here.
Then one day, one of the woman there had put some of her freshly washed sweaters outside to get the nice breeze smell. I thought it was a good idea so I put a few of mine out there. I was pulled out of a meeting and told I made the place look like a New York slum house. I told her I was sorry I had seen someone else do it and thought ot looked like a good idea. I am sorry I wouldn't do it again. She followed me outside yelling, back inside yelling and down the hall. I told her if you have a problem go tell leadership because I am not going to have you continuing to yell at me.
So you see nothing was personal against you. And nothing against kids, but I was offended and still am over how many kids I saw hit by them. Again, this has nothing to do with you. You may have NEVER struck your children.
I am sure having kids in the corps was difficult. I respect the difficulties. But this was not about that. It was about the things I described and more like them. I think I do recall you, there was another hairdresser in the "shop" who was easy going and kind.
When I went in for Sue I met her and she was warm and inviting.
Joanne and Bo! That is them. They were not legalistic but very cool and easy to get along with. When I told them some of my experiences they were understanding and He said something like, "Some people are a$$ holes."
I am unclear why you made it so personal, or perhaps I misunderstand the tone of your post. I never meant to hurt you. If you told me there were some babies in the 11th and some rat finks I would have agreed with you.
Perhaps, you were fortunate to be around "cool" people at RC. Thank God! Because all you had to do would have been exhausting had you have had to deal with the legalistic situations I ran into.
As I said in my post:
But even though I sympathize with you on how hard it was to do all you did, my experience there was still a bad one.
I could tell you all the stuff we did at Emporia, and it would not alter your experience. I wan't real fond of Emporia, truth be told I liked my time at HQS the best. A lot of leadership there or staffers were folks I grew up with in the word. Make no mistake there were a$$ holes there as well.
You did not like Emporia, and you did not like JL. I accept that and it really does not matter to me. Because your dislike of Emporia has nothing to do with me.
I hope you can see my dislike of RC has nothing to do with you. I seem to have pushed a button that makes you feel as though you need to defend RC or the F-corps. I did not mean too and I hope you have recovered from feeling it was a personal attack, if I am hearing the tone correctly, I seem to have hurt and angered you. PLEASE accept my apology, I never meant to hurt YOU.
Again, you are probably a wonderful person. But I still hated the RC campus. These statements are independant of each other. Somehow I think you heard I hated my time at RC and met legalist people = I dislike and do not respect YOU. Let me assure you one has nothing to do with the other.
Again, I am sorry my words were not written better so I didn't hurt you. Sorry.
BTW, We were all in a cult.
I hate that too
;)-->.
Dot Matrix
[This message was edited by Dot Matrix on August 27, 2003 at 20:33.]
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Dot Matrix
Vickles
Do you think all the women knew?
I had a dear 9th corps friend named ST. She told me NOT to ever go to the coach alone. She said take someone even if he sends for you.
SHE KNEW.
She was doing her research paper on adultery and was told NOT to do it by VPW.
Dot Matrix
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suz
No I never thought you even came close to making it personal against me, I honestly don't now or never did care who did/does/doesn't like or dislike me.
As for hitting our kids, once again it was expected for us to make sure our kids were, "in subjection" and it was something we were taught to do! (God forgive me once again)
I was just trying to show you the climate there at RC. Women (single)(and married) were expected to leave their kids and when they came home the kids just didn't get it. Many women were under a lot of stress. ( I know that is the same same as any campus)
I understand about being sick too. When I was sick I was still supossed to get my kids to meals, when they were sick, once I even had to miss a class cause my kids temp was 105. When the tc came to visit he was his tigger bouncy self and he thought I was looking for an excuse to stay out of the riviting class I was missing. When I went on lightbearers I came home to find out my oldest had blood poisining, and God forbid if he could get any help until my babysitter came up with the $50 to pay the doc. Twi wasn't going to dish out any money!!! I think the way the "leadership" at RC was no different than any twi people. It ran downhill, they did what they were taught, they were who they imitated.(BM, JL, CM, vpw) none of them were any different in my opinion.
Hey on lead Billy Grahme got in a car wreck and had to come home cause she broke her leg. They made a special lead for her....(and they were the original people who owned Tinny NM) We also had a girl, on lead, who got her eye poked and had to wear a patch on it...she still had to belay down the mtn... my back pack on lead was much to heavy hiking in, I fell over numerous times,(turtle effect face down) then I got dry heaves and had hypothermia type symptoms, they (mighty big of them) decided that maybe a back pack that weighed 180# was a bit to heavy for a girl of 120#. Once again, mighty big of them to relieve some of it. And lead were no different than any of the leaders. So it just didnt' matter where we were, they were groomed to make life hell for most.
The only fun I had at Emporia was pretending I didn't know the rules and breaking them...lol
gotta love that, but then I did it also at RC and HQ whenever I could.
Anyway I will not take up any more time on this tread, its sposed to be fun, not a big whine.
But if you find Dave Hanson tell him I love him dearly.
suz
:D-->
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Dot Matrix
I am so relieved that I did not hurt you! (Whew, wipes away a bead of sweat)
You can whine, I certainly do and did. Somehow I feel safer speaking with some of the people that lived through the corps. I feel they understand better the HE LL we lived through.
WHY were they so weird about illness there?
I got a virus and was very sick. I never had this happen before or since but it seemed to settle in my knee for a day and my leg was jerking hard snapping my knee. To this day my knee is weakened.
The assistant corps leader woman saw me corps night as I ran out to vomit and said ,"Why are you out of bed." I told her I was told to believe and go to corps night.
She said illness is illness. If you are down for a few days that is just normal, you go back to bed. I loved her! She was the only reasonable "Big" leader I saw there.
It just seemed like people were unreasonable and delighted in getting others in trouble. ( I saw it in other places) but my experience there it seemed to be a dominant theme.
TWI was crazy period. I am glad we survived!
Dot Matrix
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excathedra
i thank god i never went in the corps program with my baby
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vickles
Dot, I'm not sure if most women knew. I think maybe but didn't want to accept it. And I think I am more observant than most.
Ok!! I will not try to be a nice person...ok? I will not!!
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Dot Matrix
Ex
You know how hard it is to go to work and leave your kid, can you imagine going LEAD and leaving them? Too difficult!
Vickles
You do observe things. I just think be our last year many had been approached and were then "aware". I dunno if that is true.
Dot Matrix
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alfakat
scuse me, ladies, the planets are ALMOST aligned...
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Too Gray Now
Dot...
DOT, I was married in residence. That was a whole different experience, at least the part about getting invited to the coach. It never happened to me, my wife or any of our married friends. I think, the married people at Emporia or HQ had a "different" experience when it comes to sexual related issues. Less blatant.
I NEVER suspected that VP was a predator. If I had known it, I would have dropped out on my own or never gone in to start with. I came from an abusive family and I know it is not something that just “pops up†and has no repercussions.
I knew very few people that were “close†to VP. Allison He_ _ _ y used to work closely with VP and she was one of the nicest humans I ever met in my life. I guess, I am saying that people like her tended to make me think that he was probably on the level. I mean a nice girl like her would never…. I mean never…. (and, I am not saying that she ever did… by the way I liked her husband; we were in the corps together… a good man, I think.)
For reasons like Allison (nice and sweet), contrasted by sketchy sexual allegations from people that had dropped out, I categorized the sex stuff as not credible. Like interviewing the former spouse of a recent divorce, not a very good place to get an “objective†view of what the other person is really like. I am sorry to say that all the junk that went on was way below my radar. So much for “To acquire an in-depth spiritual perception and awareness.â€
Personally, our married experience was sheltered from your experiences probably for the very reason that we were married… Except in our final year when invitations from leaders to get involved in awkward situations started to happen. This happened to both of us. I started to wonder if ALL the "leaders" had some sort of inner weakness that caused them to be needy and weak of character, male or female… married or single... I didn't like it AT ALL… the notion that some “leader†has needs, and that justifies sex so that his needs are fulfilled so he can fulfill the needs of his ministry. What an absolute truckload of ****!!
Nonetheless, this sort of sexual behavior crosses way over the line when applied to people that are “under†a person’s authority. I think that sort of behavior is pathetic, weak, and (even in cases of consent) is loaded with destructive ripples that carry on for years and years.
Had we known this sort of thing was happening regularly, we (the wife and I) would have left and not graduated. We knew about the premarital sex, and some about the lives of our “single†brethren, and we turned a blind eye to it… because we did the same things before we got married.
But extramarital sex was OBVOIUSLY wrong BUT was not obvious to us until after we graduated. These problems manifested AFTER graduation.
Dot, Ex, Ginger,… to any of the women on these boards that were involved in a sexual way, there is nothing that I can say except… I think what you experienced probably forever changed you. I think such an atmosphere is a horrible tragedy for a young woman to be placed in.
What you ladies have shared has taught me that there is a cost to turning a blind eye on evil once you know it is there; and there is a higher cost of delayed disclosure. It is just all so damned ugly. The selfish, conniving, deflowering or a woman is just So God Damned Ugly!! (And yes, I think, that is a good use of the phrase). These men behaved not like loving leaders, they behaved like heathen conquerors!!
And when it comes to the perpetrators, just let me say, I have two beautiful teenage daughters… and if some nut like LCM or VP ever messed with them, I would have a difficult time not shooting the bastard right in the balls, so he would live, but never forget what a weak and pathetic POS he was…. and then I would cry…. cry for years…. and weep for my girls… because I missed the opportunity to stop the hurt in my daughters lives. No manner of revenge or “justice†can ever be considered a restoration. And that, ladies, and gentlemen, … is a tragedy.
Dot, you are right, I joke about things in residence; this was the superficial world I saw. Most of it WAS a joke, to me. But when I think about what went on under the surface, it makes me want to weep and mourn.
Yes, much of what happened appears to be actionable in courts of law, but even if more action were taken, no suit could ever bring restoration. There will be no restoration in the lives of people involved in the tragedy called the Way by any court.
I have to believe that restoration is possible through God. And I do.
But until that happens, there is only one way to categorize what many experienced – evil at what they thought was the hand of good. TWI was just a controversial ministry on the surface to SOME… but to OTHERS, it was Satanic.
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Too Gray Now
Sory for the long post... I am a passionate about spiritual things. And, DOT, and others, you should NEVER have had to face those things... ever.
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vickles
Thanks Too Gray Now,
Thanks for expressing yourself!!! It was very evil.
I once confronted a bc and went to the lc. There was four of us living together in a group home with the bc. I couldn't figure out what was the problem with the other girl and one night we went out for a drink and I asked her what the problem was. She told me the bc told her that she needed to meet the 'needs' of the mog (which was him). It was eating away at her and she just couldn't take it anymore. I believe she was on the verge of a mental breakdown. I called the lc and they had her move into the lc's home for 'healing'. Nothing happened to the bc and he continued with the next girl that moved in. His fiance at the time was in rez. She came for a visit and told me it was ok with her whatever he did because he was mog and he needed to have his needs met. They ended up getting married and he ended up being a lc. So he got a promotion. Here he was ruining beautiful women for his own selfish needs and got a promotion out of it. It stinks!!!!!
Ok!! I will not try to be a nice person...ok? I will not!!
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alfakat
and that, ladies and gentlemen, is/was the way in a nutshell--flaunt the truth of God and His only Son to take care of your own lusts--followed by a bump-up in responsibility!!!
...But I got the Word--so it's all good...
man, how fricking disgusting--and who started it all and approved of it all and was el presidente over it all...hmmm, could it be.....
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Dot Matrix
Too Gray Now
Why apologize?
I LOVED your post! As Alfakat said
Dot Matrix
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Dot Matrix
Vickles have you ever read Marsha's story (of the 6th corps)?
http://www.empirenet.com/~messiah7/ltr_marsha.htm
It is like a b-rated horror film instead of a church.
Dot Matrix
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Dot Matrix
I am posting this so that we are ahead of the 9th corps thread, because it seems to bug them...
he he he he
Dot Matrix
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Too Gray Now
Dot:
I looked at the link you had up there and read Marsha's story. Never read it before, until now.
It gave me nightmares. I am not kidding. Last night, in particular.
If someone can read her story and brush it off like dandruff, then they have no sense of proportion or decency and are probably themselves, predators. This type of abuse was WAY OUT OVER ANY LINE!!!
TWI - behind closed doors - trained many "leaders" to be wolves. I guess that is why I never fit in with the headquarters crowd. They triggered anxiety attacks in me; I just didn’t know that was what these attacks were called. I never witnessed what I read from Marsha… but my guts were heaving in the presence of such great “leadersâ€.
I am sickened in the pit of my stomach at what I read. Gruesome acts of using people. It was like reading about rape between a father and daughter. No one can should underestimate the power of phrases like “THE Man of God for The Whole World†and “Father in the Word†and then, on the other hand, MINIMIZE or Excuse such heinous acts of psychological and sexual abuse. The grandiose catch phrases AMPLIFIED the authority of VP and others…. which MAGNIFIED their offences.
I am speechless. I am ashamed that I was ever associated with such a raunchy system!
And as far as what I learned from TWI… I have re-learned almost every single doctrinal tittle and jot. And when it comes to Truth, they FAILED to offer us Christ… and in His stead they offered convoluted doctrines and empty promises and limp principles and pathetic word studies; all as DIVERSIONS from the man of Galilee. Without Christ, the PERSON, there is NO TRUTH! CES and others say they wanted to add Christ back in to what we learned, and then we would be whole. What a crock.
So what did I get for my 17 years of involvement… ??? It appears I was spared from the worst, but others were far less fortunate.
I grieve.
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