I didn't have to provide pictures for my app. That must be someone else. But my app. corps coordinater required me to wear sexier type clothes, go to an x-rated movie and visit a gay bar before he would allow me to go in-residence. I'm finding out that while I was in, there was quite abit of this stuff going on and I was very young and naive at the time, so I was an easy target. A corps friend of mine has told me stories that would curl everyone's hair. I have told many people about Greasespot that has not ever heard of it or the info. about VP. I'm very thankful to Greasespot and posters like Exie who have had alot of courage to expose the garbage that was going on.
O&A, I totally missed that in your post! And we just went along for the ride not recognizing those red flags. I hate thinking back on all the red flags I didn't see.
Rascal, I think the fear of NOT finding someone TWI would approve of made people jump to get married to anyone half-way decent, figuring they could "renew their mind" to love the person. I'm glad you and your hubs were able to work it out and learn each other instead of continuing to have unrealistic expectations. :)-->
Me? I feel like I've lost 5,000 lbs. since getting out of TWI and getting divorced. The freedom to really be myself and to spend time learning more about me and who I am... It's really kewl!
I dated a college div guy on my interm year, but thank God that didn't work out. (actually I talked him into going into CD my last year in rez and he did).
anyway I remember once D Moy***an asking me if I was going to re-marry someday. "well its most difficult when you don't date" I told her.
she didn't realize how scared the 11th corpse boys were of us stable moms w/kids at IC, f7 corpse.
anyway my last year in rez one of my corpse brothers (divorced now but was married in rez)
went on and on about HOW I SHOULD MARRY corpse. I told him I didn't want to marry corpse guys. He politely reproved me, how could I NOT want to??? etc. he didn't realize we hardly dated, because like I said, the 11th corpse were not looking to be instant fathers, and their pool of available girls was much better I guess at Euphoria, not sure, but there wasn't much possibility of dating & considering marriage etc when you were in rez at IC, we were busy doing our own corpse program PLUS trying to be moms etc.
anyway I was in LaCrosse WI(upon graduation, 2 yrs there) and Geo (we were friends of 10+ years at that time) was in MN, we started dating and decided to get married.
He got invited to corpse week and we talked to 2 guys who might marry us.
Both refused, one suggested we live together (honest) and the other said no cause he wasn't corpse!!!
upon eloping on our way home I talked to my new leader in WA state, Ho*** Bied***** and he was sooooooooo offended I married non-corpse, was a total foot about us being in HIS area and treated us like total crap on a regular basis!
The only reason I survived ( I was ready to leave then and that was before Pop, etc) was that Ho***'s leader was a corpse bro of MINE WHO loved me, we were drinkin buds at IC, Ha ha dickhead. The limb leader also liked me so Bied***** had no bitch about me that got anywhere but himself. So he made life living hell for us. Once Geo got a looser in the area a job cause the guy couldn't keep a job for nuttin, and Geo got reproved cause the looser was late for a twig leaders meeting!!!
anyway, the arranged marriages was a scam.
I feel bad for those women who waited WAY to long and remained single.
and for those who married cause of someone suggesting it....
I BELIEVE, correct me if I am wrong, but craigers and donna was one of those marriages that was SUGGESTED and followed thru on?
From what I was told by DM herself, she had her sights set for LCM for a long time. He was in love with someone else. But, DM mentioned it to VP. I think it finally dawned on VP it would be a good match. So LCM and DM started spending time together. Theirs was not a marriage based on love I don't think, but expediency, power and getting to the "top" for DM. And for LCM, probably because VP suggested it.
It was DM who used to tell corps women that you didn't have to be in love to marry. As we renew our minds to each other, love will grow over time. I never believed that, but I think she needed to believe that.
I saw some of the most pathetic marriages in the corps weddings while I was a corps grad on staff at Emporia. As graduation time came, people started panicking and began asking people they barely knew to get married. I was on staff, one guy I really liked but didn't know well - I had admired him from afar, out of the blue asked me to get married a week before the corps weddings. I said, hey, lets spend some time for a year, get to know each other, then, if we work we can. He literally begged to do it now. I said no. Two days later, he asked this woman he barely knew to get married. She said yes. It did end in divorce, maybe he should have waited a year...
I would watch these couples and it was so obvious some of these matches weren't right. Then, a couple weeks later at corps week, I saw some of the new brides were absolutely miserable. One woman left her new hubby after two weeks - she never should have married. Looked miserable during the ceremony and after. Several women had their marriages annulled after a few days or weeks.
One woman married this man who was, everything she did not want in a man. She was a dear 8th corps friend who was graduated on staff at H.Q. Her greatest desire was to get married. I saw her in her hometown a year later. It was sad. I asked her, why did you marry him? She said DM thought it was a good match and you didn't have to be in love, that would come with time.
How many people's lives were ruined with this bull? After POP and the TWI exodus, so many people divorced over the years - most of them were, as my one friend puts it, a "minstry marriage."
Rascal (and any others among you who feel you were only proposed to becuase you were "the best available"),
Is it so bad to be "the best available"? I don't know how old the men in your corps were, but for some of us men, there is a logic to choosing a wife that may seem unromantic, but it makes perfect sense. I wouldn't buy a car or a house just because it looked good; I'd want to get the most value. Certainly, when I looked to make a lifetime commitment to someone, I had several criteria that were important, the most important being agreement with me on spiritual matters. I dated a lot of women in my single days. Some were better-looking than my wife; some were more intelligent; most had more money. But none of them loved God more than Lucy. (And Lucy IS beautiful and intelligent; and we do okay $-wise! :D-->) Was she my IDEAL woman? I don't know if such a person exists. But I know I'm very happy with the choice I (and she) made.
From your post, I infer that you and your husband HAVE made a good marriage of it. (And 'fess up -- didn't YOU have a mental "checklist" of what you wanted in a husband?)
I'm sad for those who felt pressured into marriage and suffered for it, but I congratulate those who HAVE grown to love their spouses more and more.
Yeah. EWWWWWWWW! There are @ssholes in the "real world" who might have pressured you for sex; but at least you wouldn't have his pimp to deal with the next day!
Sunesis' post reminds me of what it was like to be at Emporia last year in-rez. YES, there was kind of a "desperation rush" for some to get married. The pressure was most markedly on, for some who thought a married lifestyle was better than being single, to "find someone."
I don't wanna bore anyone with the details of my particular situation, but suffice it to say, I hung out with a group of women who got hit on alot, who were very young, who thought "what the hell? is this about?"
Fortunately, I found someone who I admired, respected, had fun with, had common interests, etc. who thought the same thing. We got married because we liked each other. :)-->
We happened to "find" each other at Emporia. We've had many conversations over the years about how fortunate we were to both land at the same place at the same time. I truly have found my soulmate, whom I probably wouldn't have met hadn't we both landed at Emporia at the same time.
I consider myself very lucky, and somehow, by the grace of God, it works for us. But I'd be lying if I didn't say that we haven't lasted 22 plus years without working a bunch of sheet out.
Bottom line is, we like to be with each other. We did in-rez, and we still do now. :D-->
George, not sure if you are talking to me in this,,,,but YOU KNOW MY GEORGE,
if he wasn't corpse does that make him less of a man>>???
maybe the 11th corpse men didn't see me LOVING GOD, like your LUCY, maybe my priorites were (and rightfully so) taking care of my two sons,
BUT!!!!>>>>>> the 11th corpse MEN were looking to the cutsie, single, non-mom, YOUNGER women and we did NOT have that to offer from IC.
we were women who were single with kids, older, more mature, not necessarly cutsie (not me anyway)and we had a mission in life that IF included men, well we wern't going to sit aside and say, "yes dear". Most of us were determined to KNOW what the hell we were getting into and we didn't want ANOTHER failed marriage or another failed father for our children. So maybe we emitted not, "loving God enough" but in my opinion we wern't subserviant enough. We could run a ship w/out the captian, we could do what was called upon w/out the need of a husband for advice. Scared the hell out of most of those boys that came thru.....scared them good!! No dissing you guys,,,but it seemed that way, I even had an 11th corpse bud who said, "you in a wife would be fine, but instant father is not what I want/need right now, to young for that" and I KNEW he was right.
so I never thought corpse was for me, EVER, and
I didn't choose corpse, BUT I choose a friend, a great guy who is a great provider, is a great father and most of all we laugh a lot.
Life is to short NOT to laugh.
just to short,
my thoughts on arranged marriages differ,
I just saw to many waythink marriages that were a disaster from moment one. The counseling was, "sex before marriage, if it works then it works" (had that counselling myself....... I say).
The point of my post is that one goes into marriage with a certain set of "prerequisites" in mind. They differ from person to person. I did NOT mean that I thought Corps should only marry Corps; AC and AC, etc. I certainly meant no offense. I like George a lot. :)-->
You're right, George, but I also think that because of the stringent rules on who one is supposed to (allowed to/expected to) marry in TWI encourages people to find someone who is "workable" in the "any two believers can marry" mindset and then they expect to MOLD that person into who they REALLY want them to be.
In my case, for example, I changed my hair color, gave up my hobbies, had to become more reserved (dignified seriousness), more scholarly, more matronly, less involved with my family.... I was expected to become a whole different person - by my spouse and by TWI. It worked....for a while. I did become a totally different person and then began suffering panic attacks, severe depression with medical and weight problems before breaking free. Now I feel like a totally different person, but more like the person I was before getting married and I'm so much happier, free-er and peaceful. I don't blame my ex. He was doing the best he could and probably didn't even realize he was trying to fit me into his ideal woman instead of learning the woman he married.
I think those kinds of things happened more frequently than people realize and I do blame TWI for those kinds of marriages.
Interesting, Belle. The standard joke about the tragedy/comedy of marriage is that the woman expects the man to change, and he doesn't; and the man expects the woman not to change, and she does. In your case, it sonds like the man expected you to change, and you did; and THAT was the tragedy. Please check your PT's.
It all makes so much sense, at least now. I think in general, religion, twi more so, and maybe less now- society, tries to put both parties in a box that just plain old does not fit.
The woman is supposed to be some kind of meek, subservient that relies on the man for any kind of final say for anything. That may be awful, but look what they do to the man. He is supposed to be some kind of superman, able to take on all problems without getting even out of breath.
For most, it is very dissapoining to find out that these kind of expectations in a relationship are impossible, or at the least, unworkable.
We held so tightly to GUIDELINES that we lost freedom, at least in my opinion.
Add to this all of the defensive mechanisms that most people have in place. It is almost guaranteed that you do not really know who or what you married, and that for a very long time.
My poor ex woke up one day to finally realize she was married to a 47 year old hippy- that was not really likely to change. I on the other hand, woke up to find approximately the same age of a redneck. I kind of thought it was "cool" though. I could live with it, she couldn't. And I don't blame her or have any hard feelings about it.
I think a lot of this "renewing of the mind" really was responsible for this kind of nonsense. Just covered up what people were really like. Sometimes I joke about sending the poor newlyweds a sympathy card, heh heh. But that's life I guess.. sometimes everything does not work out the way you wanted or planned. I guess sometimes it does.
Just a small addition to this convo. I do agree that this stuff happens alot.
I was told by a grad of their new class that they don't say anymore that any Way member can marry any other Way member. That you really have to get to know that person first. Take your time sort of thing.
Recommended Posts
gladtobeout
Jardinero
I didn't have to provide pictures for my app. That must be someone else. But my app. corps coordinater required me to wear sexier type clothes, go to an x-rated movie and visit a gay bar before he would allow me to go in-residence. I'm finding out that while I was in, there was quite abit of this stuff going on and I was very young and naive at the time, so I was an easy target. A corps friend of mine has told me stories that would curl everyone's hair. I have told many people about Greasespot that has not ever heard of it or the info. about VP. I'm very thankful to Greasespot and posters like Exie who have had alot of courage to expose the garbage that was going on.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Belle
O&A, I totally missed that in your post!
And we just went along for the ride not recognizing those red flags. I hate thinking back on all the red flags I didn't see.
Rascal, I think the fear of NOT finding someone TWI would approve of made people jump to get married to anyone half-way decent, figuring they could "renew their mind" to love the person. I'm glad you and your hubs were able to work it out and learn each other instead of continuing to have unrealistic expectations.
:)-->
Me? I feel like I've lost 5,000 lbs. since getting out of TWI and getting divorced. The freedom to really be myself and to spend time learning more about me and who I am... It's really kewl!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Ham
Well.. in most states, anyway.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
smurfette
OMG AMEN BELLE!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
suz
I dated a college div guy on my interm year, but thank God that didn't work out. (actually I talked him into going into CD my last year in rez and he did).
anyway I remember once D Moy***an asking me if I was going to re-marry someday. "well its most difficult when you don't date" I told her.
she didn't realize how scared the 11th corpse boys were of us stable moms w/kids at IC, f7 corpse.
anyway my last year in rez one of my corpse brothers (divorced now but was married in rez)
went on and on about HOW I SHOULD MARRY corpse. I told him I didn't want to marry corpse guys. He politely reproved me, how could I NOT want to??? etc. he didn't realize we hardly dated, because like I said, the 11th corpse were not looking to be instant fathers, and their pool of available girls was much better I guess at Euphoria, not sure, but there wasn't much possibility of dating & considering marriage etc when you were in rez at IC, we were busy doing our own corpse program PLUS trying to be moms etc.
anyway I was in LaCrosse WI(upon graduation, 2 yrs there) and Geo (we were friends of 10+ years at that time) was in MN, we started dating and decided to get married.
He got invited to corpse week and we talked to 2 guys who might marry us.
Both refused, one suggested we live together (honest) and the other said no cause he wasn't corpse!!!
upon eloping on our way home I talked to my new leader in WA state, Ho*** Bied***** and he was sooooooooo offended I married non-corpse, was a total foot about us being in HIS area and treated us like total crap on a regular basis!
The only reason I survived ( I was ready to leave then and that was before Pop, etc) was that Ho***'s leader was a corpse bro of MINE WHO loved me, we were drinkin buds at IC, Ha ha dickhead. The limb leader also liked me so Bied***** had no bitch about me that got anywhere but himself. So he made life living hell for us. Once Geo got a looser in the area a job cause the guy couldn't keep a job for nuttin, and Geo got reproved cause the looser was late for a twig leaders meeting!!!
anyway, the arranged marriages was a scam.
I feel bad for those women who waited WAY to long and remained single.
and for those who married cause of someone suggesting it....
I BELIEVE, correct me if I am wrong, but craigers and donna was one of those marriages that was SUGGESTED and followed thru on?
suz
Link to comment
Share on other sites
vickles
Suz, H Bie****n was an @@s. He made my life living hell also!!!!
Sorry for the derail...just had to add my two cents.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Sunesis
From what I was told by DM herself, she had her sights set for LCM for a long time. He was in love with someone else. But, DM mentioned it to VP. I think it finally dawned on VP it would be a good match. So LCM and DM started spending time together. Theirs was not a marriage based on love I don't think, but expediency, power and getting to the "top" for DM. And for LCM, probably because VP suggested it.
It was DM who used to tell corps women that you didn't have to be in love to marry. As we renew our minds to each other, love will grow over time. I never believed that, but I think she needed to believe that.
I saw some of the most pathetic marriages in the corps weddings while I was a corps grad on staff at Emporia. As graduation time came, people started panicking and began asking people they barely knew to get married. I was on staff, one guy I really liked but didn't know well - I had admired him from afar, out of the blue asked me to get married a week before the corps weddings. I said, hey, lets spend some time for a year, get to know each other, then, if we work we can. He literally begged to do it now. I said no. Two days later, he asked this woman he barely knew to get married. She said yes. It did end in divorce, maybe he should have waited a year...
I would watch these couples and it was so obvious some of these matches weren't right. Then, a couple weeks later at corps week, I saw some of the new brides were absolutely miserable. One woman left her new hubby after two weeks - she never should have married. Looked miserable during the ceremony and after. Several women had their marriages annulled after a few days or weeks.
One woman married this man who was, everything she did not want in a man. She was a dear 8th corps friend who was graduated on staff at H.Q. Her greatest desire was to get married. I saw her in her hometown a year later. It was sad. I asked her, why did you marry him? She said DM thought it was a good match and you didn't have to be in love, that would come with time.
How many people's lives were ruined with this bull? After POP and the TWI exodus, so many people divorced over the years - most of them were, as my one friend puts it, a "minstry marriage."
Very sad.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
GeorgeStGeorge
Rascal (and any others among you who feel you were only proposed to becuase you were "the best available"),
Is it so bad to be "the best available"? I don't know how old the men in your corps were, but for some of us men, there is a logic to choosing a wife that may seem unromantic, but it makes perfect sense. I wouldn't buy a car or a house just because it looked good; I'd want to get the most value. Certainly, when I looked to make a lifetime commitment to someone, I had several criteria that were important, the most important being agreement with me on spiritual matters. I dated a lot of women in my single days. Some were better-looking than my wife; some were more intelligent; most had more money. But none of them loved God more than Lucy. (And Lucy IS beautiful and intelligent; and we do okay $-wise!
:D-->) Was she my IDEAL woman? I don't know if such a person exists. But I know I'm very happy with the choice I (and she) made.
From your post, I infer that you and your husband HAVE made a good marriage of it. (And 'fess up -- didn't YOU have a mental "checklist" of what you wanted in a husband?)
I'm sad for those who felt pressured into marriage and suffered for it, but I congratulate those who HAVE grown to love their spouses more and more.
George
Link to comment
Share on other sites
GeorgeStGeorge
Oh, and Gladtobeout,
Yeah. EWWWWWWWW! There are @ssholes in the "real world" who might have pressured you for sex; but at least you wouldn't have his pimp to deal with the next day!
George
Link to comment
Share on other sites
ex10
Oh my gosh,
Sunesis' post reminds me of what it was like to be at Emporia last year in-rez. YES, there was kind of a "desperation rush" for some to get married. The pressure was most markedly on, for some who thought a married lifestyle was better than being single, to "find someone."
I don't wanna bore anyone with the details of my particular situation, but suffice it to say, I hung out with a group of women who got hit on alot, who were very young, who thought "what the hell? is this about?"
Fortunately, I found someone who I admired, respected, had fun with, had common interests, etc. who thought the same thing. We got married because we liked each other.
:)-->
We happened to "find" each other at Emporia. We've had many conversations over the years about how fortunate we were to both land at the same place at the same time. I truly have found my soulmate, whom I probably wouldn't have met hadn't we both landed at Emporia at the same time.
I consider myself very lucky, and somehow, by the grace of God, it works for us. But I'd be lying if I didn't say that we haven't lasted 22 plus years without working a bunch of sheet out.
Bottom line is, we like to be with each other. We did in-rez, and we still do now.
:D-->
Link to comment
Share on other sites
ex10
PS Suzi
I hear ya, too. Pick someone you like, and stay with them. Forget all the exteraneous bs.
Crudmudgeons are always best. They shoot from the hip, and always like to have fun! if need be, sigh............
:D-->
Link to comment
Share on other sites
suz
George, not sure if you are talking to me in this,,,,but YOU KNOW MY GEORGE,
if he wasn't corpse does that make him less of a man>>???
maybe the 11th corpse men didn't see me LOVING GOD, like your LUCY, maybe my priorites were (and rightfully so) taking care of my two sons,
BUT!!!!>>>>>> the 11th corpse MEN were looking to the cutsie, single, non-mom, YOUNGER women and we did NOT have that to offer from IC.
we were women who were single with kids, older, more mature, not necessarly cutsie (not me anyway)and we had a mission in life that IF included men, well we wern't going to sit aside and say, "yes dear". Most of us were determined to KNOW what the hell we were getting into and we didn't want ANOTHER failed marriage or another failed father for our children. So maybe we emitted not, "loving God enough" but in my opinion we wern't subserviant enough. We could run a ship w/out the captian, we could do what was called upon w/out the need of a husband for advice. Scared the hell out of most of those boys that came thru.....scared them good!! No dissing you guys,,,but it seemed that way, I even had an 11th corpse bud who said, "you in a wife would be fine, but instant father is not what I want/need right now, to young for that" and I KNEW he was right.
so I never thought corpse was for me, EVER, and
I didn't choose corpse, BUT I choose a friend, a great guy who is a great provider, is a great father and most of all we laugh a lot.
Life is to short NOT to laugh.
just to short,
my thoughts on arranged marriages differ,
I just saw to many waythink marriages that were a disaster from moment one. The counseling was, "sex before marriage, if it works then it works" (had that counselling myself....... I say).
but then I say that a lot....lol
flyin
Link to comment
Share on other sites
ex10
suzi,
I think your georgie is a total find. You did good, girlfriend.
;)-->
Link to comment
Share on other sites
GeorgeStGeorge
Suz,
The point of my post is that one goes into marriage with a certain set of "prerequisites" in mind. They differ from person to person. I did NOT mean that I thought Corps should only marry Corps; AC and AC, etc. I certainly meant no offense. I like George a lot.
:)-->
George
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Belle
You're right, George, but I also think that because of the stringent rules on who one is supposed to (allowed to/expected to) marry in TWI encourages people to find someone who is "workable" in the "any two believers can marry" mindset and then they expect to MOLD that person into who they REALLY want them to be.
In my case, for example, I changed my hair color, gave up my hobbies, had to become more reserved (dignified seriousness), more scholarly, more matronly, less involved with my family.... I was expected to become a whole different person - by my spouse and by TWI. It worked....for a while. I did become a totally different person and then began suffering panic attacks, severe depression with medical and weight problems before breaking free. Now I feel like a totally different person, but more like the person I was before getting married and I'm so much happier, free-er and peaceful. I don't blame my ex. He was doing the best he could and probably didn't even realize he was trying to fit me into his ideal woman instead of learning the woman he married.
I think those kinds of things happened more frequently than people realize and I do blame TWI for those kinds of marriages.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
GeorgeStGeorge
Interesting, Belle. The standard joke about the tragedy/comedy of marriage is that the woman expects the man to change, and he doesn't; and the man expects the woman not to change, and she does. In your case, it sonds like the man expected you to change, and you did; and THAT was the tragedy. Please check your PT's.
George
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Belle
Likewise, my friend.
:D-->
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Ham
It all makes so much sense, at least now. I think in general, religion, twi more so, and maybe less now- society, tries to put both parties in a box that just plain old does not fit.
The woman is supposed to be some kind of meek, subservient that relies on the man for any kind of final say for anything. That may be awful, but look what they do to the man. He is supposed to be some kind of superman, able to take on all problems without getting even out of breath.
For most, it is very dissapoining to find out that these kind of expectations in a relationship are impossible, or at the least, unworkable.
We held so tightly to GUIDELINES that we lost freedom, at least in my opinion.
Add to this all of the defensive mechanisms that most people have in place. It is almost guaranteed that you do not really know who or what you married, and that for a very long time.
My poor ex woke up one day to finally realize she was married to a 47 year old hippy- that was not really likely to change. I on the other hand, woke up to find approximately the same age of a redneck. I kind of thought it was "cool" though. I could live with it, she couldn't. And I don't blame her or have any hard feelings about it.
I think a lot of this "renewing of the mind" really was responsible for this kind of nonsense. Just covered up what people were really like. Sometimes I joke about sending the poor newlyweds a sympathy card, heh heh. But that's life I guess.. sometimes everything does not work out the way you wanted or planned. I guess sometimes it does.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
learning
Just a small addition to this convo. I do agree that this stuff happens alot.
I was told by a grad of their new class that they don't say anymore that any Way member can marry any other Way member. That you really have to get to know that person first. Take your time sort of thing.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Belle
Yeah, but you DO have to marry another TWIt, don't you, learning? And do they still require the marrying TWIts to both be advanced class grads?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Galen
And how many beleivers still have to go out and find a JP to marry them?
Any ministry that is not willing to perform all the services of clergy for their own members, needs to reconsider the topic.
:-)
Link to comment
Share on other sites
ex10
I must say that I think it's our "unrenewed minds" that makes our marriage work.
Real people in the real world have to work things out between each other.
:)-->
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.