True, satori. Every mistake made seemed to point to some deep-seated spiritual flaw, our disrespect for God/the Bible/Wierwille. I am amused when someone (often a newbie) comes here and uses a verse to be the great, spiritual answer to a discussion that should stop all mouths. Uh huh.
I once had a poster jump in on a thread I'd started to inform me of what a blithering idiot I was. (Does that count as reproof? Thanks for sharing!) I just said something like, "I didn't know my ex-husband posted here." :D-->
That's it Shaz. TWI spiritualized everything. That allowed them to co-opt it, to own it, and eventually, they owned us too.
When someone says, "They didn't own me, I wasn't in no cult," it reminds me of the stage hypnotist's volunteer (victim) who swears the hypnotist has no ability, while he flaps his arms and his pants are around his knees. (Maybe the "volunteer's" a plant, and an actor, but the image still communicates.)
I think reproof requires a recognized authority to do the reproving. VP always said "the word does the reproving". But like Satori said, TWI owned the "word" and ultimately us. The only recognized authority here are the moderators. Anybody else who attempts reproof has to earn their authority.
If some people try to reprove me I'll not only blow it off, I'll be tempted to make a doctrine out of whatever they told me I was wrong about. Other people I respect more: I may not admit to being wrong right there on the spot, but I'll think about it and conclude that so and so just might have a point there.
Simple disagreement does not in itself constitute reproof, but it can be. You can also reprove people by humoring them. The biblical equivalent for humoring is answering a fool according to their folly. Jesus did that.
How about the Robert De Niro method of handling reproof: "You talkin' to ME?"
I think we share many cultural imperatives which may become "authorities." For instance, common courtesy is a kind of authority. Kindness, another.
Logic is a biggy, and would be even bigger if more than 5% of the population could think logically. Even so, the remainder (remnant?) seem to recognize logical thinking, if they can't also do it. A good case, logically stated, has inherent "authority."
Administrators are the authorities of last resort, as it should be I think.
Our common sense of right and wrong is a powerful authority. The "majority" can also be an authority too, just by asserting its preference.
The majority is not always right, of course, which is why there are some rules and some administrators, to protect the minority, and to keep the peace, when the villagers reach for their torches and pitchforks. The majority can be manipulated.
I've been reproved by my own sense of right and wrong, in somenone else's words, appealing to the authority of a higher principle. It's a variation of Samuel's talk with David, which concluded with "Thou art the man." A few are really good at it. (I'm probably not one of them.)
When you stop and think about it, isn't the whole GreaseSpot enterprise an exercise in reproof... of TWI and its followers (among whom some of us formerly were)?
"And Mr. Hammeroni when I said you would receive it well, that was what I meant. You seem workable when mentally provoked"
Yassem House, I obeys ya, heh heh.
Actually, I think the ordinary person trys to assess what kind of effect that his/her comments or actions have on others. Most people really care. I think TWI took advantage of this. Do not perform stupid unreasonable requests, or for that matter, you did not even have to know about some arcane protocol you apparently ignored. Your nose was rubbed in the fact that you were so unthoughtful, so uncaring. Don't you know how you "hurt" the poor mog by not sending a letter of appreciation, not doing this, not doing that.. and I ate some of that kind of crap. And don't dare disagree with them on a doctrinal level, for any reason.
I don't see that kind of "reproof" here. Even when it comes to blows at times (I usually jump behind the bar and wait for the cops to clear it up) it seems people really care. Those in da ministry do not have this amount of freedom.
The WayGB may get their chuckles, but what do they have to chuckle about? They have little freedom there. No freedom to disagree. No freedom to stick up for themselves. No freedom to BE themselves. They WILL carry out the mandates of their masters, right or wrong.
"And Mr. Hammeroni when I said you would receive it well, that was what I meant. You seem workable when mentally provoked"
Yassem House, I obeys ya, heh heh.
You could get yourself in trouble saying something like that you know. :P-->
Actually, I think the ordinary person trys to assess what kind of effect that his/her comments or actions have on others. Most people really care. I think TWI took advantage of this. Do not perform stupid unreasonable requests, or for that matter, you did not even have to know about some arcane protocol you apparently ignored. Your nose was rubbed in the fact that you were so unthoughtful, so uncaring. Don't you know how you "hurt" the poor mog by not sending a letter of appreciation, not doing this, not doing that.. and I ate some of that kind of crap. And don't dare disagree with them on a doctrinal level, for any reason.
I agree.
I don't see that kind of "reproof" here. Even when it comes to blows at times (I usually jump behind the bar and wait for the cops to clear it up) it seems people really care. Those in da ministry do not have this amount of freedom.
We get a little nippy now and then but then buds do. We should defend our words. That can take some energy for both parties. We don't get in each others faces like it was done and encouraged while with twi.
The WayGB may get their chuckles, but what do they have to chuckle about? They have little freedom there. No freedom to disagree. No freedom to stick up for themselves. No freedom to BE themselves. They WILL carry out the mandates of their masters, right or wrong.
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shazdancer
True, satori. Every mistake made seemed to point to some deep-seated spiritual flaw, our disrespect for God/the Bible/Wierwille. I am amused when someone (often a newbie) comes here and uses a verse to be the great, spiritual answer to a discussion that should stop all mouths. Uh huh.
I once had a poster jump in on a thread I'd started to inform me of what a blithering idiot I was. (Does that count as reproof? Thanks for sharing!) I just said something like, "I didn't know my ex-husband posted here."
:D-->
My bad,
Shaz
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satori001
That's it Shaz. TWI spiritualized everything. That allowed them to co-opt it, to own it, and eventually, they owned us too.
When someone says, "They didn't own me, I wasn't in no cult," it reminds me of the stage hypnotist's volunteer (victim) who swears the hypnotist has no ability, while he flaps his arms and his pants are around his knees. (Maybe the "volunteer's" a plant, and an actor, but the image still communicates.)
Good come back line, on the thread, by the way.
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A la prochaine
Reproof according to my dictionary means BLAME AND REBUKE.
I'm still not interested in either of those either while I was in TWI or here on GS.
I would think if we walked away from TWI because of such abuses, we'd try to not exercise any of those practices here on GS.
Let's be civil to each other.
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JustThinking
Lindy,
ROTFLMAO! I nominate you to be the (Anti-)Way Corp Coordinator!
JT
p.s. Gonna' be laughing about that one tomorrow...
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johniam
I think reproof requires a recognized authority to do the reproving. VP always said "the word does the reproving". But like Satori said, TWI owned the "word" and ultimately us. The only recognized authority here are the moderators. Anybody else who attempts reproof has to earn their authority.
If some people try to reprove me I'll not only blow it off, I'll be tempted to make a doctrine out of whatever they told me I was wrong about. Other people I respect more: I may not admit to being wrong right there on the spot, but I'll think about it and conclude that so and so just might have a point there.
Simple disagreement does not in itself constitute reproof, but it can be. You can also reprove people by humoring them. The biblical equivalent for humoring is answering a fool according to their folly. Jesus did that.
How about the Robert De Niro method of handling reproof: "You talkin' to ME?"
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satori001
I think we share many cultural imperatives which may become "authorities." For instance, common courtesy is a kind of authority. Kindness, another.
Logic is a biggy, and would be even bigger if more than 5% of the population could think logically. Even so, the remainder (remnant?) seem to recognize logical thinking, if they can't also do it. A good case, logically stated, has inherent "authority."
Administrators are the authorities of last resort, as it should be I think.
Our common sense of right and wrong is a powerful authority. The "majority" can also be an authority too, just by asserting its preference.
The majority is not always right, of course, which is why there are some rules and some administrators, to protect the minority, and to keep the peace, when the villagers reach for their torches and pitchforks. The majority can be manipulated.
I've been reproved by my own sense of right and wrong, in somenone else's words, appealing to the authority of a higher principle. It's a variation of Samuel's talk with David, which concluded with "Thou art the man." A few are really good at it. (I'm probably not one of them.)
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Steve Lortz
When you stop and think about it, isn't the whole GreaseSpot enterprise an exercise in reproof... of TWI and its followers (among whom some of us formerly were)?
Love,
Steve
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Ham
"And Mr. Hammeroni when I said you would receive it well, that was what I meant. You seem workable when mentally provoked"
Yassem House, I obeys ya, heh heh.
Actually, I think the ordinary person trys to assess what kind of effect that his/her comments or actions have on others. Most people really care. I think TWI took advantage of this. Do not perform stupid unreasonable requests, or for that matter, you did not even have to know about some arcane protocol you apparently ignored. Your nose was rubbed in the fact that you were so unthoughtful, so uncaring. Don't you know how you "hurt" the poor mog by not sending a letter of appreciation, not doing this, not doing that.. and I ate some of that kind of crap. And don't dare disagree with them on a doctrinal level, for any reason.
I don't see that kind of "reproof" here. Even when it comes to blows at times (I usually jump behind the bar and wait for the cops to clear it up) it seems people really care. Those in da ministry do not have this amount of freedom.
The WayGB may get their chuckles, but what do they have to chuckle about? They have little freedom there. No freedom to disagree. No freedom to stick up for themselves. No freedom to BE themselves. They WILL carry out the mandates of their masters, right or wrong.
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houseisarockin
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