Yeah---I thought about renting from myself..but wasn't legal
I knew a staffer in the late 90's...had a house they were still paying on..he kept TELLING the leadership at his root locale , and finally after a couple years they finally said...oh---I guess we have to let you go...
"Yeah---I thought about renting from myself..but wasn't legal"
Really?? Why would it be illegal?
What law would it be breaking?
Any one person can own any number of businesses, each dusiness can in turn own properties and lease those properties to other businesses. So long as you can keep the ledgers straight.
"I knew a staffer in the late 90's...had a house they were still paying on..he kept TELLING the leadership at his root locale , and finally after a couple years they finally said...oh---I guess we have to let you go..."
hmm, we never had any problems owning houses, but then we rented homes to beleivers. Used their rent payments for making the mortgage payments.
Aren't they so full of $hit. Good Lord if all those corps had owned homes they would have nice nest eggs now & nice downpayments if they had to sell and move. Where else can you pay yourself (rent, that's what a mtg. is), increase the value of your home over time and live in your investment at the same time. DUH.
quote: As I understand it, twi has a policy wherein their leadership -- way corps and/or fellowship coordinators -- CANNOT have a mortgage. According to twi's doctrine, a mortgage is synonymous with debt! If found out.....these "leadership" are relieved of these commitments and responsibilities.
It's all fine and good for them (twi) to mandate this since they bought the farm, and it is paid for. -->
Funny how this policy never came into being while *hdqtrs* had a mortgage on the farm, eh? Can't you just see them selling the farm (getting out from under *debt*), and renting some hall in dowtown NK to operate out of?
Only in my "cartoon bubble" would that ever happen! :D-->
I reacted to the legalism in an even more direct manner when leadership here began inquiring about my debt(s). I lied. :D--> It was my way of reataliating I suppose. How dare they ask questions regarding our finances? What does that have to do with The Way and bible fellowships.
When they began this absurd thinking pattern I had 5 houses at the time, all rented out. They never knew and I never told. I had them for years and all were profitable.
I just didn't have the energy to try and convince them of their insanity, and knew if I even tried I would have been released or put out of the household unless I sold those properties. (Galen, we are talking TWI II & III here. These problems did not exist in TWI I).
When pressed, I told them my only debt was my primary residence and that it was all but paid for. (another lie). Yet they still argued that I was being stubborn in not paying off my primary residence because they knew I had the means to do so. True. But I lied again and said the funds were "tied up in the stock market at this time." :D--> They did not like it at all. Bob Moneyhand even called us "foolish" in the context of that verse, "Oh foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you?"
I am sorry for those who were honest and had more integrity than I. They were better men and women than me, but indeed some have suffered consequences and financial losses that can not be regained! Some DID sell their American Dream home(s) to get out of debt, some moved, others to this day did not buy a house against their hearts true wishes. They have watched as that same house has doubled in value or MORE in some areas. They way I see it, untold financial losses have happened to the collective masses of believers who succumbed to the famous no debt policies in TWI.
After much analysis of this and having been exposed to it first hand, it is my personal opinion that the reason for the push to have all believers to be completely debt free is simple. Because they would then be able to give more money to TWI. End of story.
PS - It had a reverse effect...... those inexperienced dummies!
One couple we know here lied and said their house was a rental when in reality they had purchased it. They were busted and were kicked out.
Another friend of mine here and his wife bought a house, moved in and had her parents put the mortgage in their name. They worked out an elaborate "rent with option to buy" contract, wherin the "renters" paid 100% of the mortgage and that 100% of that payment was accounted for them towards the pay-down of the mortgage. The "renters" would own the house when it was paid for. The "renters also paid 100% of all upkeep.
My friends did all this to comply with TWI's mandates. It was acceptable with leadership because the mortgage was not technically in their name. Absurd! Of course the minute they left TWI they put the mortgage in their name and continued with their usual payments.
An older married couple here was in our fellowship. The wife attended fellowships faithfully. The husband did not come to anything in TWI but he did not mind her going. He was a grad but did not stick with it. She did. They bought a new car on credit and the wife was confronted about why did she accrue that debt. (She was hoping they would not ask but her daughter ratted her out.) She went home had her husband put the loan in his name only. Upon showing this to leadership it was acceptable because the debt was not in her name. She was in compliance. More absurdity!
These are only a FEW of the twisted stories. I am sure there are many others. I am sure there was also a lot of information which was hidden from the "inquisitors".
quote:After much analysis of this and having been exposed to it first hand, it is my personal opinion that the reason for the push to have all believers to be completely debt free is simple. Because they would then be able to give more money to TWI. End of story.
igotout......yeah, money is the bottom line.
Twi found it very difficult to conduct those yearly corps assignment meetings with hundreds of variables to consider......especially when the corps were homeowners. Just didn't work. They couldn't control them.....this infuriated lcm & co.
I sat in enough corps meetings to hear lcm's scathing remarks on corps thinking "worldly." Again, black-or-white concepts..........that's how CONTROL WORKS!!!
The domino effect takes over.....and soon, non-corps leaders are subject to the same-damn-standards. "Debt" policy is established.....and rosie can take a dip in HER swimming pool, in HER backyard, of HER home that is accruing HER investment and HER financial future.
And, many wonder why those aging corps "ABRUPTLY QUIT" their corps commitment?????
"We KNOW you're hiding something. It will go bettter for you if you come clean. Now, what is this business about seven dependants? Why can't they work?"
Cripe. Are they STILL doing this crap?? Don't they have anything better to do than to try to "smoke out" debt in the ranks? Full time "ministers"- ha.
I have recently heard that not only are they still teaching the no-debt crap - but they are enforcing it more openly.
Someone told me there were about 400 people who were not allowed to attend the Advanced Class Special in Dallas because of DEBT! This person suggested that the vast majority of these 400 people had only mortgage debt - not credit cards or car loans. Oh, and these were people who would have gone to this event if they were allowed to go!
TWI has been shooting itself in the foot regarding debt for over 10 years now. Why are they surprised they're losing people over this issue. I would bet that TWI has lost more people due to their unreasonable debt-policy more than any other doctrine (other than LCM's sexual misconduct, of course).
IMO, it would be so easy for them to change it - blame Craig - say he was wrong - that he was "off the word" at the time it was taught. Heck, they could do that for any doctrine he ever taught that they wanted to change.
hope, they could even say that times have changed....they've done it before.
It really doesn't make any sense for them to do that since they would be getting more money out of these people since paying a mortgage payment is cheaper than paying rent.... -->
As nice as it sounds, I don't think that twi wanted people to be debt free so they could milk them for more money.
For the simple fact that when you rent you loose money and when you buy you make money, almost all the time. They could demand that people ABS on any profits made by selling thier house. Once you sell you basically make back any money you have spent...you've lived for free. If this truly was thier motive, theyz wasin a to asmart. They really missed out on this most recent real estate boom.
of course it doen't work that way with the rest of that evil debt. Of course school loans to pay for higher education many times means that you can get a better job and make more money. Then again, that could also be solved by just believing really hard. ;)-->
As nice as it sounds, I don't think that twi wanted people to be debt free so they could milk them for more money.
When people sold their homes, they usually made a profit and might have been left with let's say ... a good 10,000 in their bank accounts or more. So, since this was considered 'increase' in TWI's eyes...the chances of them giving a one time lump sum donation was probably what happened more times than none.
When people sold their homes, they usually made a profit and might have been left with let's say ... a good 10,000 in their bank accounts or more. So, since this was considered 'increase' in TWI's eyes...the chances of them giving a one time lump sum donation was probably what happened more times than none.
A la......so true. I know of a few couples who gave a lump sum.
But.....I tend to think that twi was (and is) more interested in the long term. When corps and committed followers are renting......they can spend more time witnessing, more time running classes, more adaptable to move and take other assignments.
Homeowners are a different breed.....generally, they are more grounded, more time spent on home improvements, more time with hobbies or children & family, more involvement with community & schools, etc. With a whole set of different variables, homeowners rarily could pick up and move every 3 or 4 years.
Twi can only exist and thrive in a controlled environment of thought-control. Thus, the mortgage-equals-debt is just another controlled measure to rein in followers' thoughts TO CONTROL THEIR ACTIONS.
That's my story......and I'm sticking to it! :)-->
What these examples show me is that many who were in TWI did not believe what was being taught. If they were really convinced, this wouldn't go on.
JT, you are right on the money, but it's many who ARE in TWI don't believe what's being taught. :)--> Many that I know and a few who have been trying to figure out how to get around the legalism. Maybe they're lurking here and will see how to do it.
I wonder what the relatives of these people must think about TWI and their kids...."Hey, Dad, we'd like to buy a house but we can't buy a house because of TWI rules.....So could you maybe....?" I thought of asking my parents to do that but didn't have the guts to. I was too embarrassed to ask them to do something like that because of a stupid rule that everyone knows isn't right.
skyrider, you're absolutely right about homeowners having other obligations and focuses. If you buy your kids are in the same school, on the same little league teams, you shop at the same stores, etc. It's much easier to become rooted and grounded in your community and then those friends and obligations start competing with TWI. That's why they don't want people to have hobbies or do anything that might take time and focus away from your devotion to TWI. It's all bout control.
But.....I tend to think that twi was (and is) more interested in the long term. When corps and committed followers are renting......they can spend more time witnessing, more time running classes, more adaptable to move and take other assignments.
I've said it before and still believe it that much of what went on in twi was not motivated by any plan, logic, or reason - short term or long term. It was motivated by pure emotion, and then held onto with an insane committment.
I saw the debt thing evolve from what seemed like off-handed comments by vpw in the 70s. And he didn't really teach it hard. In fact he even took out a mortgage on the way HQ to buy Emporia.
Various leaders would kick around the idea and discuss what was really meant by debt etc. Of course they were trying to start "word in business" then and business people know how useful debt can be.
But over-all it wasn't that big a deal at that time.
After I left (mid-80's) probably Martindale jumped on it as something he had a hair up his butt about and just kept getting more and more adament. I don't think there was any thought or planning about the consequences. Isn't it wonderful how when you know the truth, you don't have to worry about the consequences of what you think, belive, say or do?
This is just another one of those rules that transformed into massive legalism in the 1990's. VPW once said that mortgages for homes were ok.
I never had a problem with twi employees not being allowed to getting mortgages. Sounds awful I know, but if you're a salaried employee, then twi is paying for your housing anyway, so why should you OWN a house on my dime?
But then they obviously took steps further as folks have attested to.
quote:
As I understand it, twi has a policy wherein their leadership -- way corps and/or fellowship coordinators -- CANNOT have a mortgage.
Is it really true that family coordinators can't have a mortgage? You mean to tell me that twi would rather not have a fellowship in that area, a solid family with a mortgage can't serve as twi coordinators? That sounds awfully strange, why would they mandate that on the FC level, won't they be cutting off their noses to spite their faces? As of 1991 (the last time I attended fellowship) this mandate wasn't true. If it exists today, it's really dumb.
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washingtonweather
Yeah---I thought about renting from myself..but wasn't legal
I knew a staffer in the late 90's...had a house they were still paying on..he kept TELLING the leadership at his root locale , and finally after a couple years they finally said...oh---I guess we have to let you go...
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Galen
washingtonweather:
"Yeah---I thought about renting from myself..but wasn't legal"
Really?? Why would it be illegal?
What law would it be breaking?
Any one person can own any number of businesses, each dusiness can in turn own properties and lease those properties to other businesses. So long as you can keep the ledgers straight.
"I knew a staffer in the late 90's...had a house they were still paying on..he kept TELLING the leadership at his root locale , and finally after a couple years they finally said...oh---I guess we have to let you go..."
hmm, we never had any problems owning houses, but then we rented homes to beleivers. Used their rent payments for making the mortgage payments.
:-)
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LornaDoone
Aren't they so full of $hit. Good Lord if all those corps had owned homes they would have nice nest eggs now & nice downpayments if they had to sell and move. Where else can you pay yourself (rent, that's what a mtg. is), increase the value of your home over time and live in your investment at the same time. DUH.
Will they never learn. Control freaks.
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dmiller
It's all fine and good for them (twi) to mandate this since they bought the farm, and it is paid for.
-->
Funny how this policy never came into being while *hdqtrs* had a mortgage on the farm, eh? Can't you just see them selling the farm (getting out from under *debt*), and renting some hall in dowtown NK to operate out of?
Only in my "cartoon bubble" would that ever happen!
:D-->
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igotout
Skyrider,
I reacted to the legalism in an even more direct manner when leadership here began inquiring about my debt(s). I lied.
:D--> It was my way of reataliating I suppose. How dare they ask questions regarding our finances? What does that have to do with The Way and bible fellowships.
When they began this absurd thinking pattern I had 5 houses at the time, all rented out. They never knew and I never told. I had them for years and all were profitable.
I just didn't have the energy to try and convince them of their insanity, and knew if I even tried I would have been released or put out of the household unless I sold those properties. (Galen, we are talking TWI II & III here. These problems did not exist in TWI I).
When pressed, I told them my only debt was my primary residence and that it was all but paid for. (another lie). Yet they still argued that I was being stubborn in not paying off my primary residence because they knew I had the means to do so. True. But I lied again and said the funds were "tied up in the stock market at this time."
:D--> They did not like it at all. Bob Moneyhand even called us "foolish" in the context of that verse, "Oh foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you?"
I am sorry for those who were honest and had more integrity than I. They were better men and women than me, but indeed some have suffered consequences and financial losses that can not be regained! Some DID sell their American Dream home(s) to get out of debt, some moved, others to this day did not buy a house against their hearts true wishes. They have watched as that same house has doubled in value or MORE in some areas. They way I see it, untold financial losses have happened to the collective masses of believers who succumbed to the famous no debt policies in TWI.
After much analysis of this and having been exposed to it first hand, it is my personal opinion that the reason for the push to have all believers to be completely debt free is simple. Because they would then be able to give more money to TWI. End of story.
PS - It had a reverse effect...... those inexperienced dummies!
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igotout
One couple we know here lied and said their house was a rental when in reality they had purchased it. They were busted and were kicked out.
Another friend of mine here and his wife bought a house, moved in and had her parents put the mortgage in their name. They worked out an elaborate "rent with option to buy" contract, wherin the "renters" paid 100% of the mortgage and that 100% of that payment was accounted for them towards the pay-down of the mortgage. The "renters" would own the house when it was paid for. The "renters also paid 100% of all upkeep.
My friends did all this to comply with TWI's mandates. It was acceptable with leadership because the mortgage was not technically in their name. Absurd! Of course the minute they left TWI they put the mortgage in their name and continued with their usual payments.
An older married couple here was in our fellowship. The wife attended fellowships faithfully. The husband did not come to anything in TWI but he did not mind her going. He was a grad but did not stick with it. She did. They bought a new car on credit and the wife was confronted about why did she accrue that debt. (She was hoping they would not ask but her daughter ratted her out.) She went home had her husband put the loan in his name only. Upon showing this to leadership it was acceptable because the debt was not in her name. She was in compliance. More absurdity!
These are only a FEW of the twisted stories. I am sure there are many others. I am sure there was also a lot of information which was hidden from the "inquisitors".
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skyrider
igotout......yeah, money is the bottom line.
Twi found it very difficult to conduct those yearly corps assignment meetings with hundreds of variables to consider......especially when the corps were homeowners. Just didn't work. They couldn't control them.....this infuriated lcm & co.
I sat in enough corps meetings to hear lcm's scathing remarks on corps thinking "worldly." Again, black-or-white concepts..........that's how CONTROL WORKS!!!
The domino effect takes over.....and soon, non-corps leaders are subject to the same-damn-standards. "Debt" policy is established.....and rosie can take a dip in HER swimming pool, in HER backyard, of HER home that is accruing HER investment and HER financial future.
And, many wonder why those aging corps "ABRUPTLY QUIT" their corps commitment?????
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Ham
Cripe. Are they STILL doing this crap?? Don't they have anything better to do than to try to "smoke out" debt in the ranks? Full time "ministers"- ha.
They would be more suited to a job at the IRS trying to "smoke out" bad deductions.
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Ham
Sheesh- worse than a friggin motivated tax collector.
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Ham
I really hope they don't pick up the idea.. they'd be tax collectors from hell.. audit? all they need would be genuine spiritual suspicion..
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Ham
"We KNOW you're hiding something. It will go bettter for you if you come clean. Now, what is this business about seven dependants? Why can't they work?"
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JustThinking
What these examples show me is that many who were in TWI did not believe what was being taught. If they were really convinced, this wouldn't go on.
JT
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Hope R.
I have recently heard that not only are they still teaching the no-debt crap - but they are enforcing it more openly.
Someone told me there were about 400 people who were not allowed to attend the Advanced Class Special in Dallas because of DEBT! This person suggested that the vast majority of these 400 people had only mortgage debt - not credit cards or car loans. Oh, and these were people who would have gone to this event if they were allowed to go!
TWI has been shooting itself in the foot regarding debt for over 10 years now. Why are they surprised they're losing people over this issue. I would bet that TWI has lost more people due to their unreasonable debt-policy more than any other doctrine (other than LCM's sexual misconduct, of course).
IMO, it would be so easy for them to change it - blame Craig - say he was wrong - that he was "off the word" at the time it was taught. Heck, they could do that for any doctrine he ever taught that they wanted to change.
Sometimes I still marvel at their stupidity.
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JustThinking
...cutting the class size in half.
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vickles
hope, they could even say that times have changed....they've done it before.
It really doesn't make any sense for them to do that since they would be getting more money out of these people since paying a mortgage payment is cheaper than paying rent....
-->
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lindyhopper
As nice as it sounds, I don't think that twi wanted people to be debt free so they could milk them for more money.
For the simple fact that when you rent you loose money and when you buy you make money, almost all the time. They could demand that people ABS on any profits made by selling thier house. Once you sell you basically make back any money you have spent...you've lived for free. If this truly was thier motive, theyz wasin a to asmart. They really missed out on this most recent real estate boom.
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lindyhopper
But then I remembered...
of course it doen't work that way with the rest of that evil debt. Of course school loans to pay for higher education many times means that you can get a better job and make more money. Then again, that could also be solved by just believing really hard.
;)-->
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lindyhopper
Just for the record, My door don't swing that way.
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A la prochaine
Lindy,
When people sold their homes, they usually made a profit and might have been left with let's say ... a good 10,000 in their bank accounts or more. So, since this was considered 'increase' in TWI's eyes...the chances of them giving a one time lump sum donation was probably what happened more times than none.
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skyrider
A la......so true. I know of a few couples who gave a lump sum.
But.....I tend to think that twi was (and is) more interested in the long term. When corps and committed followers are renting......they can spend more time witnessing, more time running classes, more adaptable to move and take other assignments.
Homeowners are a different breed.....generally, they are more grounded, more time spent on home improvements, more time with hobbies or children & family, more involvement with community & schools, etc. With a whole set of different variables, homeowners rarily could pick up and move every 3 or 4 years.
Twi can only exist and thrive in a controlled environment of thought-control. Thus, the mortgage-equals-debt is just another controlled measure to rein in followers' thoughts TO CONTROL THEIR ACTIONS.
That's my story......and I'm sticking to it!
:)-->
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Belle
JT, you are right on the money, but it's many who ARE in TWI don't believe what's being taught.
:)--> Many that I know and a few who have been trying to figure out how to get around the legalism. Maybe they're lurking here and will see how to do it.
I wonder what the relatives of these people must think about TWI and their kids...."Hey, Dad, we'd like to buy a house but we can't buy a house because of TWI rules.....So could you maybe....?" I thought of asking my parents to do that but didn't have the guts to. I was too embarrassed to ask them to do something like that because of a stupid rule that everyone knows isn't right.
skyrider, you're absolutely right about homeowners having other obligations and focuses. If you buy your kids are in the same school, on the same little league teams, you shop at the same stores, etc. It's much easier to become rooted and grounded in your community and then those friends and obligations start competing with TWI. That's why they don't want people to have hobbies or do anything that might take time and focus away from your devotion to TWI. It's all bout control.
You're story is right on.....stick to it!
:)-->
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My3Cents
I've said it before and still believe it that much of what went on in twi was not motivated by any plan, logic, or reason - short term or long term. It was motivated by pure emotion, and then held onto with an insane committment.
I saw the debt thing evolve from what seemed like off-handed comments by vpw in the 70s. And he didn't really teach it hard. In fact he even took out a mortgage on the way HQ to buy Emporia.
Various leaders would kick around the idea and discuss what was really meant by debt etc. Of course they were trying to start "word in business" then and business people know how useful debt can be.
But over-all it wasn't that big a deal at that time.
After I left (mid-80's) probably Martindale jumped on it as something he had a hair up his butt about and just kept getting more and more adament. I don't think there was any thought or planning about the consequences. Isn't it wonderful how when you know the truth, you don't have to worry about the consequences of what you think, belive, say or do?
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oldiesman
This is just another one of those rules that transformed into massive legalism in the 1990's. VPW once said that mortgages for homes were ok.
I never had a problem with twi employees not being allowed to getting mortgages. Sounds awful I know, but if you're a salaried employee, then twi is paying for your housing anyway, so why should you OWN a house on my dime?
But then they obviously took steps further as folks have attested to.
Is it really true that family coordinators can't have a mortgage? You mean to tell me that twi would rather not have a fellowship in that area, a solid family with a mortgage can't serve as twi coordinators? That sounds awfully strange, why would they mandate that on the FC level, won't they be cutting off their noses to spite their faces? As of 1991 (the last time I attended fellowship) this mandate wasn't true. If it exists today, it's really dumb.Link to comment
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Ham
Yep.. really dumb. And the dumbness is not going away. I think they huffed a few too many paint fumes..
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