Most of us are only too aware of our own shortcomings, so when reproof came, we felt guilty, were guilty, by virtue of being human, and imperfect.
For leadership, "whispering," "backbiting," and hearsay often passed for revelation (right John Lynn?), since they got little or no true "revelation," if their lives were any measure. No matter if the facts were wrong. If the reproof missed the mark on specifics, it was still about being imperfect, falling short. I didn't screw up here, but I did screw up something else, that nobody knew about. So it was God's payback. The reprover was merely the messenger.
But why didn't I apply the same rule to the errant reprovers? Don't know. Partly, I believed the BS, that their revelation, even if imperfect, was better than my own certainty.
This is why I believe in the power of "cults." This could not happen now, and I would love to go back in time, to a few "special" moments where the reproof was clearly inappropriate, or dead wrong, and to stop it cold. But at the time, I had no voice with which to respond. Where had it gone? I guess I had traded it for TWI's pottage, in a moment of hunger and weakness.
First of all, you don't treat God's people that way. Second of all, you don't treat God's people that way. Finally, where does one get off treating anybody that way? Well, I must have given them permission at some point. My conscience, my personal sense of inadequacy and guilt, I had signed over to TWI, to use against me at their discretion.
I really don't recall when I "signed it over." I don't think I ever took it back, fully, until Waydale came along and I got a good, clear look at the "emporor," without his clothes, and realized he never did wear any.
This is one reason I may have not lasted that long (4yrs). I would take a little correction when I was wrong.
I had enough confidence in myself that everyone soon learned that direct confrontation with me didn't work. It helped that almost everyone had to look up at me.
I WISH I had taken a ball bat to the venomous, lying, destructiv, cruel pieces of sh!t who so thoroughly enjoyed destroying peoples self worth.
Instead, sigh....I meekly accepted the face melting....assuming that it was Godly reproof that I was just to stupid and unspiritual to understand.....didn1t ever want to be declare *stiff necked* along with all of my ither failings.
I accepted stupid reproof that wasn't even based on reality.
One evening I took a shower, put on some make-up, and brand new sweater and a pair of slacks that weren't blue jeans. Off I go to twig and there's our beloved branch leader's wife blessing us with her presence.
After twig was over, I told her I wanted to go home for Christmas (my Dad had sent $ for a plane ticket) Blows my mind to even think at this point that here I was in my early 30's, granduated from the Corps already, and asking freakin permission to go somewhere for Christmas??
Well, anyway, after hearing this long litany of how I'm not doing this, or that, and how bad I am, she ends it with "And I can see by looking at you that you're not taking care of yourself."
Urggggh, *shudder*, that term "melt your face" brings back horrible memories of loyboy stinkendale, gack. I'd pay to stand in line to see him get a dose of his own damn medicine.
Yes, Steve!, I did go home for Christmas, and then I sure as he11 didn't want to go back, even after the Branch leader had said, "Why don't you just stay there?"
I came back for more, after all it was my "assignment." If I stayed home I'd be breaking my "assignment" but my BL says to stay home. (???!!!)
When he suggested I leave and not come back, I thought "Don't throw me in the briar patch."
When I was younger in the 70's and in the "programs", I took reproof very personally. It went right to my heart. I accepted the judgements and instructions and did my best to change. It didn't matter how I felt about the situation - I must be wrong!
Later in the 80's... as I got older and wiser - I tried to give my point of view, as rationally and calmly as possible. That usually didn't work either. But I'd nod my head in agreement, and make some behavior modifications - enough to show I was trying to change. But I did not take it to heart as much as I did when I was younger.
So, fast foward to the 90's. Craig is spitting and screaming about everything from Angels to Y2K. There isn't much to agree with and when John or I were reproved (mostly by Bub Moneyhands), we would nod in agreement and do whatever we wanted to anyway. I used to consider myself a "Stepford" believer. Smiling sweetly and saying all the right ministry lines - while inside I was seething and anxious to get the hell outta Dodge!
Generally, I melted pretty easily. It really didn't take much more than a cross look in my direction for me to start questioning what I had done wrong. However, as time went on there were occasions when a mog-or-mogette wannabe would bring forth spew and I would seeth and question or go over their heads. I used to struggle with how these people could ascend to power, knowing they were placed there ultimately with VPW's blessing.
I got to the point where I didn't share much about my life so it made it tough for them to say anything. They would try to dig once in a while but I kept it pretty generic. If it got sticky, I would thank them. Sort of took the steam out of the situation.
If the person seemed to genuinely have my best interest at heart and approached me like a human being, I'd listen all day. Even two years ago, there were still some kind people around my area. Purposely ignoring reality but not harsh at all. In fact, I miss them very much. :(-->
When I first went on Staff, it was during the worst part of Puke Martinfail's reign. Just a stroll down the hallway was sure to get you reproof of some kind. It was like people were hiding in the hall to find some way to reprove you.
My favorite one was when I was the coordinator of a table one day at lunch. We finished eating and I sent people out to take the leftovers, serving dishes, plates, etc. to the assigned areas to receive these items.
I had a guy left to clean chairs and the table. One guy who took other items up left his magazine on one of the chairs. The guy cleaning the chairs lifted it up, wiped the chair and put the magazine back down. The owner of the magazine came back ....ed off! His magazine got damp from being on the chair. He asked me who cleaned the chairs. I actually didn't know because I was new. He proceeded to reprove me and make sure that the next time I coordinated a table, I would instuct the people to put personal items under the chair. I told him that kids didn't bring toys in the dining room, so why did he think it was OK to bring his magazine??
Like everybody else, I put up with the spittle as they spewed their warped "reproof" at me. Instead of whipping him like corn bread batter, I stood there with glassy eyed remorse...believing that I was a loathsome failure and that this God chosen leader was trying to help my sorry arse...
If I could go back in time...I'd punch him in the mouth so hard that he would have to drop his pants to chew his food...no more church with you boy....
I never really had anybody try to "melt my face" until 1993 or 94. I wasn't in the Way Corps, and when I was a WOW our coordinator, who was interim Way Corps, was so far from doing the program himself that he never really roads our butts about much.
The first time or two somebody got in my face I was so stunned that anybody would talk to me like that I froze.
Mostly I just shut up and took the crap because my then-wife interpreted any resistance to the abuse on my part as disobeying "leadership", being "out of fellowship", et cetera. Since we already had problems in our marriage I wasn't willing to strain it any further by having her think that I was possesed or something :D-->
Add me to the list of those who took it for far too long, believing that what they said MUST be right, and what I thought MUST be wrong. Even if I didn't agree with what they were saying I would squelch my own thoughts because I just must not be meek enough to see the rightness in what they were saying, making me wrong-er still.
That started changing in the 90s when I saw leadership making bad judgements, butt-covering decisions, and not apologizing when I knew first-hand they were dead wrong. (goes back to what I've said before about putting down roots... you just start seeing more details when the scenery isn't always changing)
But still, I took it for years. Hanging my head. Saying all the right things. Knowing in my heart I was right and they were wrong. Not saying anything about it to my spouse because I knew he wouldn't back me up.
The only good thing I can say is that during my final two confrontations I was totally in control and it ticked them off royally. I just sat there, looked them in the eye, remained composed, confronted them back, smiled when they said rude things to me or about me... wish I had done that a lot more often. It felt really good!
This only happened once while I was a wow in Bossier City, LA...
The LC (St*ve H@rr!s*n, i think) came up to "check up" on us. He started to try to get in my face about me not haveing a job at the time... I just gave him the "are you nucking futs" looks, and when he finished, I asked him he he could tell something that I didn't allready know? He looked like he wanted to smack me, but thought better of it (I am 6'5" tall and was in the army reserves at the time).
My "wow family's" jaws dropped, and they said nothing... When the LC left, I said, 'what a f'n @$$h*le'. They all agreed with me, even the FC.
(the following day, I said to myself... f*** the rules... I applied for and got a full time job doing apartment maint. and painting.)
After my wow year I decided to go active duty in the Army. I didn't know (or cared), who was who in the twi leaderdang zoo...
While on active duty, the only twi clergy that I was in contact with were Paul N*rcro$$ and W*lfgang Schne!der. I never had a problem with either of them. I actually enjoyed the times I got to hangout with Paul.
Zshot/JustPondering: Yes, that same lewd fellow of the baser sort was legion leader for the mid-atlantic area in the mid 80's. That's when I finally had enough. His loving confrontation with me inspired and started the Godly action of my leaving. After his ego-boosting spew about how f'ed up I was, I just looked blankly at him with a wonderful little smirk on my face, like saying "bless you my hero". Then I turned around and walked away. He didn't like that & demanded my return. I didn't and just kept on going ...
Yes, he was an effin ahole, with a capital 'A' and all the rest ...
quote:Most of us are only too aware of our own shortcomings, so when reproof came, we felt guilty, were guilty, by virtue of being human, and imperfect.
Partly, I believed the BS, that their revelation, even if imperfect, was better than my own certainty.
But at the time, I had no voice with which to respond. Where had it gone? I guess I had traded it for TWI's pottage, in a moment of hunger and weakness.
Very introspective statements. They were really good at breaking down our self-esteem to the point that we trusted their word more than our own.
quote:First of all, you don't treat God's people that way. Second of all, you don't treat God's people that way. Finally, where does one get off treating anybody that way? Well, I must have given them permission at some point. My conscience, my personal sense of inadequacy and guilt, I had signed over to TWI, to use against me at their discretion.
AMEN! My little brother would tell my mom not to worry. He said they would tell me one too many times what to do and I would rebel. He was partly right, the other part was that I was tired of feeling like crap and letting others determine my self worth.
ex70'shouston – you must have had a great upbringing and had your self-esteem planted in concrete. Kudos to you! You also got out early, didn’t you? People who stood against correction were kicked out or picked on until they were submissive or left on their own.
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satori001
I did the same, generally.
Most of us are only too aware of our own shortcomings, so when reproof came, we felt guilty, were guilty, by virtue of being human, and imperfect.
For leadership, "whispering," "backbiting," and hearsay often passed for revelation (right John Lynn?), since they got little or no true "revelation," if their lives were any measure. No matter if the facts were wrong. If the reproof missed the mark on specifics, it was still about being imperfect, falling short. I didn't screw up here, but I did screw up something else, that nobody knew about. So it was God's payback. The reprover was merely the messenger.
But why didn't I apply the same rule to the errant reprovers? Don't know. Partly, I believed the BS, that their revelation, even if imperfect, was better than my own certainty.
This is why I believe in the power of "cults." This could not happen now, and I would love to go back in time, to a few "special" moments where the reproof was clearly inappropriate, or dead wrong, and to stop it cold. But at the time, I had no voice with which to respond. Where had it gone? I guess I had traded it for TWI's pottage, in a moment of hunger and weakness.
First of all, you don't treat God's people that way. Second of all, you don't treat God's people that way. Finally, where does one get off treating anybody that way? Well, I must have given them permission at some point. My conscience, my personal sense of inadequacy and guilt, I had signed over to TWI, to use against me at their discretion.
I really don't recall when I "signed it over." I don't think I ever took it back, fully, until Waydale came along and I got a good, clear look at the "emporor," without his clothes, and realized he never did wear any.
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ex70sHouston
This is one reason I may have not lasted that long (4yrs). I would take a little correction when I was wrong.
I had enough confidence in myself that everyone soon learned that direct confrontation with me didn't work. It helped that almost everyone had to look up at me.
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rascal
Not like I wish I would have....
I WISH I had taken a ball bat to the venomous, lying, destructiv, cruel pieces of sh!t who so thoroughly enjoyed destroying peoples self worth.
Instead, sigh....I meekly accepted the face melting....assuming that it was Godly reproof that I was just to stupid and unspiritual to understand.....didn1t ever want to be declare *stiff necked* along with all of my ither failings.
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outandabout
I accepted stupid reproof that wasn't even based on reality.
One evening I took a shower, put on some make-up, and brand new sweater and a pair of slacks that weren't blue jeans. Off I go to twig and there's our beloved branch leader's wife blessing us with her presence.
After twig was over, I told her I wanted to go home for Christmas (my Dad had sent $ for a plane ticket) Blows my mind to even think at this point that here I was in my early 30's, granduated from the Corps already, and asking freakin permission to go somewhere for Christmas??
Well, anyway, after hearing this long litany of how I'm not doing this, or that, and how bad I am, she ends it with "And I can see by looking at you that you're not taking care of yourself."
Huh? What did she want, a ball gown?
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Steve!
So did you end up going home for Christmas?
Urggggh, *shudder*, that term "melt your face" brings back horrible memories of loyboy stinkendale, gack. I'd pay to stand in line to see him get a dose of his own damn medicine.
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GeorgeStGeorge
So, how do you really feel?
;)-->
George
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outandabout
Yes, Steve!, I did go home for Christmas, and then I sure as he11 didn't want to go back, even after the Branch leader had said, "Why don't you just stay there?"
I came back for more, after all it was my "assignment." If I stayed home I'd be breaking my "assignment" but my BL says to stay home. (???!!!)
When he suggested I leave and not come back, I thought "Don't throw me in the briar patch."
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Hope R.
When I was younger in the 70's and in the "programs", I took reproof very personally. It went right to my heart. I accepted the judgements and instructions and did my best to change. It didn't matter how I felt about the situation - I must be wrong!
Later in the 80's... as I got older and wiser - I tried to give my point of view, as rationally and calmly as possible. That usually didn't work either. But I'd nod my head in agreement, and make some behavior modifications - enough to show I was trying to change. But I did not take it to heart as much as I did when I was younger.
So, fast foward to the 90's. Craig is spitting and screaming about everything from Angels to Y2K. There isn't much to agree with and when John or I were reproved (mostly by Bub Moneyhands), we would nod in agreement and do whatever we wanted to anyway. I used to consider myself a "Stepford" believer. Smiling sweetly and saying all the right ministry lines - while inside I was seething and anxious to get the hell outta Dodge!
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tonto
Generally, I melted pretty easily. It really didn't take much more than a cross look in my direction for me to start questioning what I had done wrong. However, as time went on there were occasions when a mog-or-mogette wannabe would bring forth spew and I would seeth and question or go over their heads. I used to struggle with how these people could ascend to power, knowing they were placed there ultimately with VPW's blessing.
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Stayed Too Long
Like a good little wayfer was I
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JustThinking
I got to the point where I didn't share much about my life so it made it tough for them to say anything. They would try to dig once in a while but I kept it pretty generic. If it got sticky, I would thank them. Sort of took the steam out of the situation.
If the person seemed to genuinely have my best interest at heart and approached me like a human being, I'd listen all day. Even two years ago, there were still some kind people around my area. Purposely ignoring reality but not harsh at all. In fact, I miss them very much.
:(-->
JT
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Nottawayfer
When I first went on Staff, it was during the worst part of Puke Martinfail's reign. Just a stroll down the hallway was sure to get you reproof of some kind. It was like people were hiding in the hall to find some way to reprove you.
My favorite one was when I was the coordinator of a table one day at lunch. We finished eating and I sent people out to take the leftovers, serving dishes, plates, etc. to the assigned areas to receive these items.
I had a guy left to clean chairs and the table. One guy who took other items up left his magazine on one of the chairs. The guy cleaning the chairs lifted it up, wiped the chair and put the magazine back down. The owner of the magazine came back ....ed off! His magazine got damp from being on the chair. He asked me who cleaned the chairs. I actually didn't know because I was new. He proceeded to reprove me and make sure that the next time I coordinated a table, I would instuct the people to put personal items under the chair. I told him that kids didn't bring toys in the dining room, so why did he think it was OK to bring his magazine??
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GrouchoMarxJr
Like everybody else, I put up with the spittle as they spewed their warped "reproof" at me. Instead of whipping him like corn bread batter, I stood there with glassy eyed remorse...believing that I was a loathsome failure and that this God chosen leader was trying to help my sorry arse...
If I could go back in time...I'd punch him in the mouth so hard that he would have to drop his pants to chew his food...no more church with you boy....
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Oakspear
I never really had anybody try to "melt my face" until 1993 or 94. I wasn't in the Way Corps, and when I was a WOW our coordinator, who was interim Way Corps, was so far from doing the program himself that he never really roads our butts about much.
The first time or two somebody got in my face I was so stunned that anybody would talk to me like that I froze.
Mostly I just shut up and took the crap because my then-wife interpreted any resistance to the abuse on my part as disobeying "leadership", being "out of fellowship", et cetera. Since we already had problems in our marriage I wasn't willing to strain it any further by having her think that I was possesed or something
:D-->
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WordWolf
Most of the people who tried to reprove me were at least partly correct in
doing so, and none of them tried to shout at me.
(This was a smart idea. Perhaps they thought I'd pull a knife or something.
Like I'd need a knife...)
So, I listened, and found merit where it was.
Where it wasn't, I listened, then did my own thing again.
=====
The one exception was a guy in the corpse when I visited hq.
I said something which was true but he didn't want to hear.
(It wasn't ministry-related.)
He went into one of those filibuster diatribes they learned from experience
in the corpse.
I waited for him to finish,
then said, coolly,
"You've been waiting all day to give that speech, haven't you?"
I forget what else we said, but the conversation relaxed a bit after that.
Part of it was because he didn't NEED to put on the mask for me,
part of it because it wouldn't work if he DID.
It's funny-looking back, I can see he probably felt a little more at-ease
not having to read from his script....
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JustThinking
WW,
Nicely done.
:)-->
JT
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TheHighWay
Add me to the list of those who took it for far too long, believing that what they said MUST be right, and what I thought MUST be wrong. Even if I didn't agree with what they were saying I would squelch my own thoughts because I just must not be meek enough to see the rightness in what they were saying, making me wrong-er still.
That started changing in the 90s when I saw leadership making bad judgements, butt-covering decisions, and not apologizing when I knew first-hand they were dead wrong. (goes back to what I've said before about putting down roots... you just start seeing more details when the scenery isn't always changing)
But still, I took it for years. Hanging my head. Saying all the right things. Knowing in my heart I was right and they were wrong. Not saying anything about it to my spouse because I knew he wouldn't back me up.
The only good thing I can say is that during my final two confrontations I was totally in control and it ticked them off royally. I just sat there, looked them in the eye, remained composed, confronted them back, smiled when they said rude things to me or about me... wish I had done that a lot more often. It felt really good!
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Zshot
This only happened once while I was a wow in Bossier City, LA...
The LC (St*ve H@rr!s*n, i think) came up to "check up" on us. He started to try to get in my face about me not haveing a job at the time... I just gave him the "are you nucking futs" looks, and when he finished, I asked him he he could tell something that I didn't allready know? He looked like he wanted to smack me, but thought better of it (I am 6'5" tall and was in the army reserves at the time).
My "wow family's" jaws dropped, and they said nothing... When the LC left, I said, 'what a f'n @$$h*le'. They all agreed with me, even the FC.
(the following day, I said to myself... f*** the rules... I applied for and got a full time job doing apartment maint. and painting.)
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JustThinking
Zshot,
Was that the same guy who used to be a RC in the mid-80s? Southeast US maybe?
JT
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Zshot
JT,
After my wow year I decided to go active duty in the Army. I didn't know (or cared), who was who in the twi leaderdang zoo...
While on active duty, the only twi clergy that I was in contact with were Paul N*rcro$$ and W*lfgang Schne!der. I never had a problem with either of them. I actually enjoyed the times I got to hangout with Paul.
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JustThinking
Zshot,
I met Paul through a military guy I knew. Same impression as you. Nice guy. Wonder if he's still in?
Did being in the military change your perspective about how TWI was run? Just curious.
JT
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tomtuttle
Zshot/JustPondering: Yes, that same lewd fellow of the baser sort was legion leader for the mid-atlantic area in the mid 80's. That's when I finally had enough. His loving confrontation with me inspired and started the Godly action of my leaving. After his ego-boosting spew about how f'ed up I was, I just looked blankly at him with a wonderful little smirk on my face, like saying "bless you my hero". Then I turned around and walked away. He didn't like that & demanded my return. I didn't and just kept on going ...
Yes, he was an effin ahole, with a capital 'A' and all the rest ...
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Belle
satori001
Very introspective statements. They were really good at breaking down our self-esteem to the point that we trusted their word more than our own.
AMEN! My little brother would tell my mom not to worry. He said they would tell me one too many times what to do and I would rebel. He was partly right, the other part was that I was tired of feeling like crap and letting others determine my self worth.
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Belle
ex70'shouston – you must have had a great upbringing and had your self-esteem planted in concrete. Kudos to you! You also got out early, didn’t you? People who stood against correction were kicked out or picked on until they were submissive or left on their own.
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