Well, I for one was not terribly hurt by TWI. Other than wasting a lot of my money and screwing my religious beliefs up on a messed up system (delaying my involvement within a normal Christian setting for YEARS until I finally realized that maybe, just maybe, they had taught me some incorrect stuff), I can't think where I'd been hurt very much by it.
I met some great people along the way. In fact, the vast majority of folks I met were wonderful folks. I also met a few a$$holes as well.
I was far enough out of the center of the storm that I really didn't have my mind sucked far enough into it to become so totally mentally dependent upon the "Way Tree," though. I was in the military at the time: going WOW was not a possibility for me, going in the Corpse was likewise just not possible. Had I been in different circumstances, I likely would have done both. (Thank God I was in the military)
So does that make TWI OK? Hell no. Thanks to the stories that you all have told, I can see the full scope of the harm that it did to so many who were within that system...and the likely harm they would have done to me had I been able to devote my full life and strength to them (as I really wanted to but couldn't, due to my military commitment).
I remember having the thought, for years, that TWI was alright, but when the Loy took over, he really messed it up and started making it more cult-like. I hung on to those beliefs for years and years and years. I thought that the ministry (gawd I called it that for so long after I left) was undergoing a lot of turmoil and that maybe it would come back. For years I clung to that belief.
But the key was that I knew that the basic TWI doctrine was OK. Any time I went to any kind of a church, I judged that church based upon the standard of Vic's doctrine. Of course, no church would ever measure up to that high standard, so I went basically churchless for a long time.
I realized that I had a NEED for the fellowship that was around in a church. I realized that TWI wasn't it. I realized that the offshoots weren't it. And I had to go back and re-examine a lot of the basic church doctrines that VP threw out and ask myself if those doctrines should have been thrown out? Are they justifiable? (Those beliefs that Vic taught us to deny)
You know what I figure about TWI in the final analysis (at least for this week)? I figure that the vast majority of people were a lot of good folks that wanted to love God and each other and serve the living God. TWI advertised a mechanism to accomplish just that. Little did we know how messed up they were. Little did we know how some really bad people would use the hearts of some good people to accomplish some really bad things. As I said, I used to think that twi was something good that had gone bad. I now think that there was something rotten at its very core. The good that happened to anybody there was likely more a result of good people who were able to walk in God's grace, in spite of all that was messed up.
Again, one of the best things from this site (along with its predecessors) is that it has provided an opportunity for us to see the harm that twi had done others. I don't know what it has accomplished for others here, but for me its provided me an opportunity to really see HOW bad it was. Doctrinally, practically, everything. And that has been incredibly satisfying to me...
just trying to figure some stuff out. may i think out loud ?
Of course.
if you, in the way, did not encounter bad things, does that mean twi was okay ? i don't know what i think
If someone doesn't encounter something bad it doesn't change the fact it happened to others while in twi. It only removes that person from experiences we have. For them to say it never happened would be wrong.
if i use the bible as my premise (sp?), would you be hurt if part of your body was hurt ? and would i rejoice at the miracles you experienced ?
Spiritually I believe all have suffered from the day Adam and Eve made their choice. Do I literally suffer when you have a bad day? I only know you are if you tell me so in post. As well I know of your rejoicing by the same. Do I then cry and laugh with you, yes.
do you look at these things secularly, spiritually, logically, what ?
All three. We have logic and secular (or senses) to use. But spiritual is something that you cannot separate. That is IMHO of course.
if we chalk it all up to youthful searching / stupidity, i am reminded that board of trustees were not youthful...
Youthful searching may have gotten us somewhere but it was deceitful use of the scriptures that GOT us. The directors/trustees account for themselves. Youthful is not part of their equation.
and if we blame the adversary for the whole deal, what about people ? no responsibility ?
If we blame the adversary without recognition of who played out the dirty deeds then we are subject to be duped again. People do the will of their Father. Whoever that may be. Even if they don't realize how useful a tool for the adversary they are, it still takes people to play it out with. ***I'm not saying your born of the adversary to do dirty deeds okay.***
As for responsibility, if we don't accept our portion we will stay in neutral.
more later when i can figure out what i'm trying to ask
Sure, I was hurt by people in TWI - but not as badly as others who have posted here. My hurt involved my self-worth and I still feel the effects of some of the opinions that "leadership" had about me.
But now, even more than that, I think what hurts me the most is finding out about the people I love who have been abused and demeaned more than I can imagine. My heart just breaks when I hear some of the things they were put through in TWI. Compared to many of them, my "bad things" were a mere picnic.
Let me add that just because you think that bad things didn't happen to you in TWI, doesn't mean that bad things didn't happen to you in TWI.
I find that I, and others who post here as well, rationalized away some of the crap that happened. Maybe the bad didn't seem so bad in comparison to what we thought we were learning, or was worth enduring because we were "moving the Word". To a certain extent we were conditioned to accept the abnormal as normal.
I'm one of those people who would say nothing singularly bad happened to me, except that I gave several years of my youth to a group that ultimately didn't care for me personally. The thing that I regret most is that I treated my family like idiots and infidels for a while. Thank God they were wise enough and loved me enough to put up with me until I extracted my "puffed up with knowledge" head out of my rear end. We still have theological differences, but we love and respect each other very much.
just trying to figure some stuff out. may i think out loud ?
if you, in the way, did not encounter bad things, does that mean twi was okay ? i don't know what i think
if i use the bible as my premise (sp?), would you be hurt if part of your body was hurt ? and would i rejoice at the miracles you experienced ?
do you look at these things secularly, spiritually, logically, what ?
if we chalk it all up to youthful searching / stupidity, i am reminded that board of trustees were not youthful...
and if we blame the adversary for the whole deal, what about people ? no responsibility ?
more later when i can figure out what i'm trying to ask
tanks
Its hard for me to answer the first question since I did encounter bad things. But from what I think is that even if they didn't encounter the really bad things they were affected in other ways, just different from ours. And sometimes the ones that said they didn't encounter some things are in denial because we believed that this was the one true ministry. Its hard for them to realize that they were deceived like the rest of us.
If I used the bible as my premise, I would hurt with you, cry with you, and rejoice with you.
I try to look at things logically. My spiritual side sometimes can be lacking because sometimes I don't trust my instincts sometimes on that side. My thinking is if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck and acts like a duck then chances are it is a duck....if you get my drift.
I was a teen when I got into twi. I was vulnerable and looking for answers and love. The trustees, yes they were much older and they used our vulnerabiltiy to woo us in. I don't believe they were innocent in what they were doing. They knew.
I blame the people that knew what they were doing. Maybe the adversary had something to do with it, but the people were the hands and feet. They are the ones that were doing it. It was their decision for whatever reason.
In my opinion ....if bad things DID NOT HAPPEN TO YOU when you were in _TWI_.....THEN YOU WEREN'T IN _THE WAY INTERNATIONAL_.
radar
Radar -- what is meant by *bad*?? I personally distanced myself far enough away from *leadership* and hdqtrs that whatever they did, had little (if any) effect on me. I was a part of twi, yet kept myself *insulated* from them at the same time.
I moved to the beat of my own drum. I listened to what they said, and concurred with a lot of the rhetoric, but not the rules.
Sure -- I was tossed out, M & A'd, and other believers were told not to associate, or talk to me. I was beginning to think that *heretic* was my first name, since that was how I was referred to -- but regardless -- I don't see that as *bad*, just saw it as the way things were.
I guess your experience was different than mine, but I for one, wouldn't make a *blanket statement* saying that if something *bad* did not happen, you weren't involved with twi. My times with the outfit were *sorry*, but not *bad*, as I read the way you mean it.
quote: more later when i can figure out what i'm trying to ask
It's not what you're trying to ask, it's what you're trying not to ask: namely..."If bad things DID happen to you in twi, does that mean twi WASN'T OK?" Good question either way.
quote: do you look at these things secularly, spiritually, logically, what ?
There has to be logic in there somewhere even if it's just implied. I ask myself, "Would things that happened in twi apply the same way to things that happened in ... schools, jobs, athletic groups, music groups, basically anything I've ever been involved in." The answer is sometimes yes, sometimes no, but one relevant factor is that NONE of the other things ever demanded near as much unconditional loyalty from me as twi. This changes everything!
TWI wanted to be the most important thing in my life. That's a violation of my personal space, regardless of their reasons for it. They don't have the right to assume that role for anybody IMO. As long as I was a good unquestioning believer they didn't hassle me much, but they went and attacked my marriage, which I believe IS the most important thing in my life, both in the eyes of society and God, and despite 18 yrs of hearing that 'commitment to family is not as important as commitment to God', I immediately left when they did that. Not without worrying a little, but never to return.
I've been out 10 yrs and I'm still reevaluating everything.
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Radar OReilly
Exxie,
In my opinion ....if bad things DID NOT HAPPEN TO YOU when you were in TWI.....THEN YOU WEREN'T IN THE WAY INTERNATIONAL.
radar
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markomalley
Well, I for one was not terribly hurt by TWI. Other than wasting a lot of my money and screwing my religious beliefs up on a messed up system (delaying my involvement within a normal Christian setting for YEARS until I finally realized that maybe, just maybe, they had taught me some incorrect stuff), I can't think where I'd been hurt very much by it.
I met some great people along the way. In fact, the vast majority of folks I met were wonderful folks. I also met a few a$$holes as well.
I was far enough out of the center of the storm that I really didn't have my mind sucked far enough into it to become so totally mentally dependent upon the "Way Tree," though. I was in the military at the time: going WOW was not a possibility for me, going in the Corpse was likewise just not possible. Had I been in different circumstances, I likely would have done both. (Thank God I was in the military)
So does that make TWI OK? Hell no. Thanks to the stories that you all have told, I can see the full scope of the harm that it did to so many who were within that system...and the likely harm they would have done to me had I been able to devote my full life and strength to them (as I really wanted to but couldn't, due to my military commitment).
I remember having the thought, for years, that TWI was alright, but when the Loy took over, he really messed it up and started making it more cult-like. I hung on to those beliefs for years and years and years. I thought that the ministry (gawd I called it that for so long after I left) was undergoing a lot of turmoil and that maybe it would come back. For years I clung to that belief.
But the key was that I knew that the basic TWI doctrine was OK. Any time I went to any kind of a church, I judged that church based upon the standard of Vic's doctrine. Of course, no church would ever measure up to that high standard, so I went basically churchless for a long time.
I realized that I had a NEED for the fellowship that was around in a church. I realized that TWI wasn't it. I realized that the offshoots weren't it. And I had to go back and re-examine a lot of the basic church doctrines that VP threw out and ask myself if those doctrines should have been thrown out? Are they justifiable? (Those beliefs that Vic taught us to deny)
You know what I figure about TWI in the final analysis (at least for this week)? I figure that the vast majority of people were a lot of good folks that wanted to love God and each other and serve the living God. TWI advertised a mechanism to accomplish just that. Little did we know how messed up they were. Little did we know how some really bad people would use the hearts of some good people to accomplish some really bad things. As I said, I used to think that twi was something good that had gone bad. I now think that there was something rotten at its very core. The good that happened to anybody there was likely more a result of good people who were able to walk in God's grace, in spite of all that was messed up.
Again, one of the best things from this site (along with its predecessors) is that it has provided an opportunity for us to see the harm that twi had done others. I don't know what it has accomplished for others here, but for me its provided me an opportunity to really see HOW bad it was. Doctrinally, practically, everything. And that has been incredibly satisfying to me...
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houseisarockin
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Hope R.
Sure, I was hurt by people in TWI - but not as badly as others who have posted here. My hurt involved my self-worth and I still feel the effects of some of the opinions that "leadership" had about me.
But now, even more than that, I think what hurts me the most is finding out about the people I love who have been abused and demeaned more than I can imagine. My heart just breaks when I hear some of the things they were put through in TWI. Compared to many of them, my "bad things" were a mere picnic.
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Oakspear
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Oakspear
Let me add that just because you think that bad things didn't happen to you in TWI, doesn't mean that bad things didn't happen to you in TWI.
I find that I, and others who post here as well, rationalized away some of the crap that happened. Maybe the bad didn't seem so bad in comparison to what we thought we were learning, or was worth enduring because we were "moving the Word". To a certain extent we were conditioned to accept the abnormal as normal.
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wwjesuslaughat
I'm one of those people who would say nothing singularly bad happened to me, except that I gave several years of my youth to a group that ultimately didn't care for me personally. The thing that I regret most is that I treated my family like idiots and infidels for a while. Thank God they were wise enough and loved me enough to put up with me until I extracted my "puffed up with knowledge" head out of my rear end. We still have theological differences, but we love and respect each other very much.
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vickles
Its hard for me to answer the first question since I did encounter bad things. But from what I think is that even if they didn't encounter the really bad things they were affected in other ways, just different from ours. And sometimes the ones that said they didn't encounter some things are in denial because we believed that this was the one true ministry. Its hard for them to realize that they were deceived like the rest of us.
If I used the bible as my premise, I would hurt with you, cry with you, and rejoice with you.
I try to look at things logically. My spiritual side sometimes can be lacking because sometimes I don't trust my instincts sometimes on that side. My thinking is if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck and acts like a duck then chances are it is a duck....if you get my drift.
I was a teen when I got into twi. I was vulnerable and looking for answers and love. The trustees, yes they were much older and they used our vulnerabiltiy to woo us in. I don't believe they were innocent in what they were doing. They knew.
I blame the people that knew what they were doing. Maybe the adversary had something to do with it, but the people were the hands and feet. They are the ones that were doing it. It was their decision for whatever reason.
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dmiller
Radar -- what is meant by *bad*?? I personally distanced myself far enough away from *leadership* and hdqtrs that whatever they did, had little (if any) effect on me. I was a part of twi, yet kept myself *insulated* from them at the same time.
I moved to the beat of my own drum. I listened to what they said, and concurred with a lot of the rhetoric, but not the rules.
Sure -- I was tossed out, M & A'd, and other believers were told not to associate, or talk to me. I was beginning to think that *heretic* was my first name, since that was how I was referred to -- but regardless -- I don't see that as *bad*, just saw it as the way things were.
I guess your experience was different than mine, but I for one, wouldn't make a *blanket statement* saying that if something *bad* did not happen, you weren't involved with twi. My times with the outfit were *sorry*, but not *bad*, as I read the way you mean it.
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dmiller
Excie -- in a word -- NO!
:)-->
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johniam
quote: more later when i can figure out what i'm trying to ask
It's not what you're trying to ask, it's what you're trying not to ask: namely..."If bad things DID happen to you in twi, does that mean twi WASN'T OK?" Good question either way.
quote: do you look at these things secularly, spiritually, logically, what ?
There has to be logic in there somewhere even if it's just implied. I ask myself, "Would things that happened in twi apply the same way to things that happened in ... schools, jobs, athletic groups, music groups, basically anything I've ever been involved in." The answer is sometimes yes, sometimes no, but one relevant factor is that NONE of the other things ever demanded near as much unconditional loyalty from me as twi. This changes everything!
TWI wanted to be the most important thing in my life. That's a violation of my personal space, regardless of their reasons for it. They don't have the right to assume that role for anybody IMO. As long as I was a good unquestioning believer they didn't hassle me much, but they went and attacked my marriage, which I believe IS the most important thing in my life, both in the eyes of society and God, and despite 18 yrs of hearing that 'commitment to family is not as important as commitment to God', I immediately left when they did that. Not without worrying a little, but never to return.
I've been out 10 yrs and I'm still reevaluating everything.
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