Very interesting. I find the references to communism to be quite enlightening.. look at what kind of hierarchy they have. Two or three of them at the top, beyond recrimination. Can spend money like water if they want- no accountability. Executive "meetings" scheduled in much warmer parts of the world..
Then look at the "masses". The corpses are demanded to live "on a need basis". Their ALL is DEMANDED. And what do they get back? Not much.
That does put a slant on it that I did not think about. It is nothing more than a communist religion and economics. Each is expected to contribute, according to his ability (and more). Each can expect to receive according to his need (or less).
And they control your social atmosphere.. "let" you have a little fun once in a blue moon. I suupose even Stalin, when he was not otherwise busy during his purges, could be "pleasant".
I do remember the fascination that vpw had of hitler. It would be interesting to take a look at how hitler did with his own people and compare. I know more than once he stated that the holocaust never happened.
I also remember how we would say if we were having any doubts while in the corps, we would say that it was like throwing up. We were getting all the negatives out of our lives and throwing it up and out of our bodies.
Thanks for starting this up on another thread. I wanted to reply, but thought too much discussion would totally choo-choo that topic.
When I was in, I loved to look up those cult books, to see if we were in them! Then I would read about the tactics of cults, and reassure myself that TWI wasn't like that. But I was "on the field." I read books and newspapers, had non-TWI friends, disagreed with my branch leader, did what I wanted within and without TWI.
Funny how you mentioned the children's songs thing. (Yes, it wasn't every meal, but it was most of them.) When I was at Rome City, I thought they sang just for the sake of the children, and I thought that was cute to want to do something as a group for them. Sometimes, it was annoying. But it wasn't until Waydale that I read that all the campuses did this. How bizarre! And yeah, infantilizing.
Like LindaZ said, I don't think Wierwille sat down and read Cult Handbook 101 and decided how he would start a cult. But I think he learned over the years exactly what tactics would yield results.
Talk to people who have been abused by their spouses. The similarities in methods are so frequent, you'd think those spouses had a private club to learn how!
Wierwille had years to figure out how to control others, and how to surround himself with those he could control. He started in high school, perhaps before. He was a bully, according to those who knew him back then. Then he had a spouse to practice on, then a congregation. But the denomination was too confining, so he started his own gig, to run it the way he wanted. When it grew out of his control, he designed the Way Corps to be the group that was completely under his thumb.
The closer to the inner workings of the organization, the closer to Wierwille or Martindale or Rivenbark, the tighter the control. That is the way of abusers -- they must have control.
quote:I don't think Wierwille sat down and read Cult Handbook 101 and decided how he would start a cult. But I think he learned over the years exactly what tactics would yield results.
Shaz....yeah, he learned alright.
At times, I stop and think about twi's timeline......wierwille was 51 years old when his pfal class was filmed and on the field for public consumption. Add a couple of years or so, and the zero corps program got canned.
Heck, wierwille was around 55 years old......and had been around the block a few times when things started growing to anything substantial. By the time the 4th, 5th and 6th corps were pluggin away....certain patterns were set.
I don't know that Vic ever read Linda Z's imaginary "Cult 101," but he did read a lot. He did relate much of what he read to his management of TWI.
For one instance, he had a keen interest in hunting dogs. I remember very clearly Wierwille saying a particular manual on training dogs gave some excellent guidelines for training people, in particular, The Way Corps.
Permit me to try a little experiment here. Hey Linda! Roll over, girl!
Nothin'? Well, some are always gonna be more "trainable" than others.
And Wierwille had ways of finding out who those were. He had very little interest in the run-of-the-mill believer, except if they had money or pedigree. He reveled in their adulation, was all.
He concentrated his efforts on clergy, corps, and staff. The "From Birth to the Corps" papers were a fertile ground for locating vulnerable prey.
It's no hard to figure out that passing the plate makes a hell of a lot more $$$$ tax free then working for A.B. Dick as a CEO and a lot more sexual favors too!!! too ...Well, someone had to get those "crazy" hippies in San Francisco in line to be scoffed up by the Religious Right ... Ha Ha
Like LindaZ said, I don't think Wierwille sat down and read Cult Handbook 101 and decided how he would start a cult. But I think he learned over the years exactly what tactics would yield results.
Wierwille had years to figure out how to control others, and how to surround himself with those he could control. He started in high school, perhaps before. He was a bully, according to those who knew him back then. Then he had a spouse to practice on, then a congregation. But the denomination was too confining, so he started his own gig, to run it the way he wanted. When it grew out of his control, he designed the Way Corps to be the group that was completely under his thumb.
Regards,
Shaz
Yes, that's much closer to the way these things happen. There's no "recipe" for an aspiring cult leader to follow. If you have to ask how, you will fail.
It begins with a personality. That personality is "magnetic," or "charismatic." There is nothing wrong with those traits unless there is something wrong with the person possessing them. In Wierwille's case, there was. He learned insights over years through experience - and reading - on how to exert influence, command loyalty and require obedience. He cultivated an image to be idolized.
If he had a cookbook, it was the bible, but he twisted it to persuade the faithful that he was also an object for their faith. And, abra-cadabra-believing=receiving, it was so. Presto-change-o, Man o' God-o.
Yes, WW. I've never read that thread. I remember a couple of other dog-training books that were mentioned in passing over the years, but not that one.
Very different focus at RC with the dog training thing. He brought the dogs to hunt, but mostly it was entertainment for the kids. When we were there, I never saw the inference that our kids should be trained like the dogs, but I know there were some parents who individually treated their kids that way.
quote: If we are joint heirs with Christ, would this be "heir conditioning?"
JT, that's a groaner. :D-->
They talked to us like we were kids. I remember B*b M*ynihan pitching a fit for about 30 minutes about how disrespectful we were for "clicking" our syllabus while he was talking. --> He told us that he had had a lot of spiritual stuff to share with us, but that he went "spiritually cold" and wasn't going to do it now. Just picked up his toys and went home after giving us a good talking to.
quote:I always kind of thought that the word "conditioning" was well, sort of "unbiblical" at least as far as the mind is concerned. Body, perhaps..
Twi doesn't use the word "grooming" either....its language has to "sell the biblical product." Thus, "way corps training" is inserted.
In proverbs, Train up a child in the way he should go and when he is old, he will not depart from thee. (??) See, it's even got "train" and "the way" in the SAME verse.
--> -->
BUT.....the word "conditioning" is more suited to the process. :P-->
I am amazed at what and how people receive,what they received, how they received PFAL...one guy sat through PFAL and said, "Hey,I'd like to start cult like that!"... He had a German background and was in my brother's twig...he never fulfilled his mission, but it's funny what different people get out of it....some wanna know God, some wanna figure out the bible, some wamma make a lot of $$$ ... interesting!!!
Yeah, I was there for that "clicking" tirade of Bob's at Bradenton at WAP AC on the field, my 2nd (or 3rd) time taking that thing. It was as if he was wanting us to behave like trained dogs on command. Context - it was after a long session at the end of a long night of "heavy" teachings. We had been given a handout to add to our syllabus. After the session was over naturally everyone was clicking open their red syllabi to insert the handout. Big deal! How dare us click when not told to click! :D-->
Another case of a leader who mistook their own anger and tired frustrations as something God directed him to say (yell), justifying it in his mind as being correct behavior. It was not. What a big baby!
That was the same class where he insisted that each of us write LCM after each weekend to tell him how much we enjoyed the teachings and to share in detail what we learned from it. I'm really sorry I wasted those weekends. I would have rather been home cleaning my pool or watching a game or something constructive. :D-->
I remember that night so well. I just wanted to go to bed. I was so tired, we were so poor that I really didn't want to be spending the money on gas, food and hotel rooms but we would have been ostracized if we didn't go. The things we did to stay in good graces.... -->
Why did they feel the need to stand up and spend another hour telling us what we had just heard? I think it was just to hear themselves speak and to feel real spiritual. Didn't they make some people spend the night in the room sleeping on the floor to make sure nothing was stolen? I really felt sorry for those people! What happened to God protecting the room and the equipment? Was the crime rate that high in Bradenton? I didn't think it was.
To bring it back to topic: ( ;)--> Skyrider ) I think those corpse were conditioned to act like spiritual big shots and to command (not earn) respect. They had their heads so puffed up with knowledge that they felt they owed it to us lowly wayfers to share their great spiritual insights.
Yeah, Belle. I was one of the ones who spent the night in the room sleeping on a cot "guarding the room". Brooks and Giles idea for me to do so. They were "funny in the head", as was I for being there at all. I suppose I was conditioned.
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Ham
Very interesting. I find the references to communism to be quite enlightening.. look at what kind of hierarchy they have. Two or three of them at the top, beyond recrimination. Can spend money like water if they want- no accountability. Executive "meetings" scheduled in much warmer parts of the world..
Then look at the "masses". The corpses are demanded to live "on a need basis". Their ALL is DEMANDED. And what do they get back? Not much.
That does put a slant on it that I did not think about. It is nothing more than a communist religion and economics. Each is expected to contribute, according to his ability (and more). Each can expect to receive according to his need (or less).
And they control your social atmosphere.. "let" you have a little fun once in a blue moon. I suupose even Stalin, when he was not otherwise busy during his purges, could be "pleasant".
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vickles
I do remember the fascination that vpw had of hitler. It would be interesting to take a look at how hitler did with his own people and compare. I know more than once he stated that the holocaust never happened.
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vickles
I also remember how we would say if we were having any doubts while in the corps, we would say that it was like throwing up. We were getting all the negatives out of our lives and throwing it up and out of our bodies.
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shazdancer
Thanks for starting this up on another thread. I wanted to reply, but thought too much discussion would totally choo-choo that topic.
When I was in, I loved to look up those cult books, to see if we were in them! Then I would read about the tactics of cults, and reassure myself that TWI wasn't like that. But I was "on the field." I read books and newspapers, had non-TWI friends, disagreed with my branch leader, did what I wanted within and without TWI.
Funny how you mentioned the children's songs thing. (Yes, it wasn't every meal, but it was most of them.) When I was at Rome City, I thought they sang just for the sake of the children, and I thought that was cute to want to do something as a group for them. Sometimes, it was annoying. But it wasn't until Waydale that I read that all the campuses did this. How bizarre! And yeah, infantilizing.
Like LindaZ said, I don't think Wierwille sat down and read Cult Handbook 101 and decided how he would start a cult. But I think he learned over the years exactly what tactics would yield results.
Talk to people who have been abused by their spouses. The similarities in methods are so frequent, you'd think those spouses had a private club to learn how!
Wierwille had years to figure out how to control others, and how to surround himself with those he could control. He started in high school, perhaps before. He was a bully, according to those who knew him back then. Then he had a spouse to practice on, then a congregation. But the denomination was too confining, so he started his own gig, to run it the way he wanted. When it grew out of his control, he designed the Way Corps to be the group that was completely under his thumb.
The closer to the inner workings of the organization, the closer to Wierwille or Martindale or Rivenbark, the tighter the control. That is the way of abusers -- they must have control.
Regards,
Shaz
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skyrider
Shaz....yeah, he learned alright.
At times, I stop and think about twi's timeline......wierwille was 51 years old when his pfal class was filmed and on the field for public consumption. Add a couple of years or so, and the zero corps program got canned.
Heck, wierwille was around 55 years old......and had been around the block a few times when things started growing to anything substantial. By the time the 4th, 5th and 6th corps were pluggin away....certain patterns were set.
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skyrider
Even today......twi thrives on yearly themes of loaded language.
The Promised Land of the Prevailing Word: Building Spiritual Understanding......ambiguous? confusing? mumbo-jumbo?........you betcha.
Just the way they want it!
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satori001
I don't know that Vic ever read Linda Z's imaginary "Cult 101," but he did read a lot. He did relate much of what he read to his management of TWI.
For one instance, he had a keen interest in hunting dogs. I remember very clearly Wierwille saying a particular manual on training dogs gave some excellent guidelines for training people, in particular, The Way Corps.
Permit me to try a little experiment here. Hey Linda! Roll over, girl!
Nothin'? Well, some are always gonna be more "trainable" than others.
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shazdancer
Yes, some of us were more trainable.
And Wierwille had ways of finding out who those were. He had very little interest in the run-of-the-mill believer, except if they had money or pedigree. He reveled in their adulation, was all.
He concentrated his efforts on clergy, corps, and staff. The "From Birth to the Corps" papers were a fertile ground for locating vulnerable prey.
Shaz
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JustThinking
If we are joint heirs with Christ, would this be "heir conditioning?"
JT
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excathedra
oh i missed this thread
remember that time i told you all about the book, "hunt close" -- the way to train a baby or a dog
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Bramble
"Hunt Close" was still being recommended to parents in the nineties.
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mick
It's no hard to figure out that passing the plate makes a hell of a lot more $$$$ tax free then working for A.B. Dick as a CEO and a lot more sexual favors too!!! too ...Well, someone had to get those "crazy" hippies in San Francisco in line to be scoffed up by the Religious Right ... Ha Ha
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satori001
Yes, that's much closer to the way these things happen. There's no "recipe" for an aspiring cult leader to follow. If you have to ask how, you will fail.
It begins with a personality. That personality is "magnetic," or "charismatic." There is nothing wrong with those traits unless there is something wrong with the person possessing them. In Wierwille's case, there was. He learned insights over years through experience - and reading - on how to exert influence, command loyalty and require obedience. He cultivated an image to be idolized.
If he had a cookbook, it was the bible, but he twisted it to persuade the faithful that he was also an object for their faith. And, abra-cadabra-believing=receiving, it was so. Presto-change-o, Man o' God-o.
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satori001
skyrider, good discussion.
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WordWolf
Does anyone want me to bump up the old "Hunt Close" thread?
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skyrider
Did there NEED to be a Zero Corps to start the conditioning?
I mean....was the threat of "dumping the whole thing" something vpw used to leverage his policies and startup conditioning?
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jardinero
Yes, WW. I've never read that thread. I remember a couple of other dog-training books that were mentioned in passing over the years, but not that one.
Very different focus at RC with the dog training thing. He brought the dogs to hunt, but mostly it was entertainment for the kids. When we were there, I never saw the inference that our kids should be trained like the dogs, but I know there were some parents who individually treated their kids that way.
J.
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Belle
JT, that's a groaner.
:D-->
They talked to us like we were kids. I remember B*b M*ynihan pitching a fit for about 30 minutes about how disrespectful we were for "clicking" our syllabus while he was talking.
--> He told us that he had had a lot of spiritual stuff to share with us, but that he went "spiritually cold" and wasn't going to do it now. Just picked up his toys and went home after giving us a good talking to.
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Ham
I always kind of thought that the word "conditioning" was well, sort of "unbiblical" at least as far as the mind is concerned. Body, perhaps..
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skyrider
Twi doesn't use the word "grooming" either....its language has to "sell the biblical product." Thus, "way corps training" is inserted.
In proverbs, Train up a child in the way he should go and when he is old, he will not depart from thee. (??) See, it's even got "train" and "the way" in the SAME verse.
BUT.....the word "conditioning" is more suited to the process.
:P-->
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mick
I am amazed at what and how people receive,what they received, how they received PFAL...one guy sat through PFAL and said, "Hey,I'd like to start cult like that!"... He had a German background and was in my brother's twig...he never fulfilled his mission, but it's funny what different people get out of it....some wanna know God, some wanna figure out the bible, some wamma make a lot of $$$ ... interesting!!!
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igotout
Hi Belle! How are you. Come visit!
Yeah, I was there for that "clicking" tirade of Bob's at Bradenton at WAP AC on the field, my 2nd (or 3rd) time taking that thing. It was as if he was wanting us to behave like trained dogs on command. Context - it was after a long session at the end of a long night of "heavy" teachings. We had been given a handout to add to our syllabus. After the session was over naturally everyone was clicking open their red syllabi to insert the handout. Big deal! How dare us click when not told to click!
:D-->
Another case of a leader who mistook their own anger and tired frustrations as something God directed him to say (yell), justifying it in his mind as being correct behavior. It was not. What a big baby!
That was the same class where he insisted that each of us write LCM after each weekend to tell him how much we enjoyed the teachings and to share in detail what we learned from it. I'm really sorry I wasted those weekends. I would have rather been home cleaning my pool or watching a game or something constructive.
:D-->
Sorry for the derailment Skyrider.
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Belle
I plan to make my way there sometime, John.
:D-->
I remember that night so well. I just wanted to go to bed. I was so tired, we were so poor that I really didn't want to be spending the money on gas, food and hotel rooms but we would have been ostracized if we didn't go. The things we did to stay in good graces....
-->
Why did they feel the need to stand up and spend another hour telling us what we had just heard? I think it was just to hear themselves speak and to feel real spiritual. Didn't they make some people spend the night in the room sleeping on the floor to make sure nothing was stolen? I really felt sorry for those people! What happened to God protecting the room and the equipment? Was the crime rate that high in Bradenton? I didn't think it was.
To bring it back to topic: (
;)--> Skyrider ) I think those corpse were conditioned to act like spiritual big shots and to command (not earn) respect. They had their heads so puffed up with knowledge that they felt they owed it to us lowly wayfers to share their great spiritual insights.
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igotout
Yeah, Belle. I was one of the ones who spent the night in the room sleeping on a cot "guarding the room". Brooks and Giles idea for me to do so. They were "funny in the head", as was I for being there at all. I suppose I was conditioned.
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