Tonto... their previous experience as LEAD staff is why they put the H****ys in charge at Gunnison. I shouldn't be surprised that she scared folks with her ways. She was kind-of a wild thing! I was thrilled that I didn't have to go LEAD (trained during the fog years) since I have a distinct dislike for high places with no railings.
Satori, your analysis is just excellent. Especially why, in the situation HCW was is, one wouldn't question the leader. See, leaders did and took, dumbsh#t risks like this all the time. It was nothing new.
Also, what kind of medical care did RW and others get? I knew RW was recuperating at Emporia and was so glad when I finally got to see her at H.Q. But the victims were kept kind of incommmunicado. I would imagine the leadership to their faces seemed kind and caring and concerned - why? So there would be no lawsuits. But I doubt any of them cared about these "losers" who screwed up their LEAD experience by their lack of believing.
By the way, HCW, did Donnie stay on there? Were there any repercussions for him?
quote: Maybe what I'm seeing here is that the way boldly made it known what they thought was God's specific will for our lives,then turned and ran when his "hedge of protection" failed us....
You're very right there, Simon. I'm sure most of us can tell their own stories of the number of times the "organization" failed to take on any responsibility when "our believing" (or lack thereof), "our spirituality" (or lack thereof), or just plain maturity levels didn't measure up.
God, of course, never lets us down. The organization wasn't to blame. It was "the fear in the heart of that mother!!!!" crap that caused it. Almighty God certainly can't protect us when we have all that BS going on in our minds!!!!
Not to derail this thread by getting into a side conversation with Oldies, but I do want to point out the following from my own business experience - - and I just share these as EXAMPLES of the type of responsibility (i.e., Oldies, ACCOUNTABILITY) a board member or manager of a corporation has.
1) As a board member of a nonprofit organization, I have a fiduciary oversight responsibility as a board member. Should I fail to excercise proper oversight and there is some sort of financial fraud or other mismanagement of funds and a lawsuit follows, I can be named in the lawsuit even though I've not necessarily been involved in the actual fraud or other wrong doing - - including being just plain stupid :)-->.
2) As a manager in a corporation, when an employee comes to me and complains of discrimination, sexual or other types of harrassment and I don't report it to Human Resources for his/her permanent employee file and see to it some action is taken (that's my accountability in the matter) - - I can be named in a lawsuit and held liable for damages.
Ditto with safety regulations (like OSHA) when I fail to enforce them with my employees and someone is injured or dies.
Legal or illegal, I think I knew back in the early 80's that riding in the back of a pickup is dangerous. And to throw 15 people back there, at 50 m.p.h., and add a homemade trailer...
Oldies, you don't think there was enough money to buy a couple of vans or buses or trailers for this work? THAT was the responsibility of the BOT. They knew how many people were being transported out to the highway.
Satori, thanks for the comparison with Wierwille's insistence on perfection and safety on his AIRPLANE!
quote:Oldies, you don't think there was enough money to buy a couple of vans or buses or trailers for this work? THAT was the responsibility of the BOT. They knew how many people were being transported out to the highway.
How many times did vpw LECTURE THE CORPS ON DETAILS.........citing how when howard allen was driving the coach that he had to be extra diligent to not swerve an inch.
ELSE......veepee would get thrown around at the back of the bus!!!!!!
in my humble opinion, hcw is going through something called grief. you can correct me if i'm wrong, hcw (i could be doing more "projecting" here)
i saw how he kept fighting "guilt" in his account
it's even harder when you tell something and armchair whatevers (like oldiesman) keep interjecting their "blame the trustees"
hopefully hcw is tougher than i am
oldiesman, why can't you just let him tell his story ?
i know, it's a discussion forum dah dah dah
the anguish of his story gets to me, the heart even more than the physical
he's dedicating this to rochelle for christ's sake
i just can't analyze something like this. can't explain it either....
and the part about these fine people being the rejects or losers. ohgod i can't even bear it. i was sent lead with my fiance. i remember craig saying, let's see if you two can make it as a couple. .... you
and hitching.... a car almost killed us. my bag went flying across the highway. it was so close to being me or us, i am sick by the memory
HCW is not responding for a while, I suppose, maybe reliving the grief over it. But how and when did Rochelle pass away? He said half her scalp was cut away to see her skull, but she was conscious and with that description, a lot of stitching and IV antibiotics and morphine would pull her through. Anyone know when she passed away and what the cause of death was?
quote:well, they were the BOT, om ---it was their f-ing job, no?? They wanted the accolades but not the responsibility. Everything run on a frickin shoe-string...home-made trailer, my a$$...surprised the truck wasn't home-made, too.
Too cheap and tight-a$$ed to do things right, like the world....
They still never changed even in the 2001. A friend I had who was in rez at that time told me the following: They were told that they could have a time to bring up everything they were questioning...(i.e. lcm's screwups, Donna still being kork, etc.).
Someone brought up a bus that was used to transport the kork and questioned the safety of it. The kork coord said it was fine, but then a guy in rez who worked in transportation piped up and said the safety of it was questionable also. This guy got a talking to and had to go back and recind his statement in front of the kork the next day. Twi sold the bus shortly thereafter.....Guilty!!!!
Of course they were given BS answers to the other things (i.e. Donna is still kork because it's a different administration)....whatever....
HCW, it is incredibly brave for you to write this stuff. Thanks for sharing it. I hope you are able to finish.
This is the FIRST time since the accident that I've shared the whole story with anyone. I actually never read the entire pieces from my journal either.
I was up all night posting that stuff. Once I got into the flow I felt I should go with it.
It was incredibly painful for me. I spent a good part of the day crying, connecting with the whole thing like that was hard.
Thank you for your support. I really appreciate it. Don't worry. My skin is as thick as the armor on an M1-A1 battle tank.
___________________________
I answer to some questions. I actually DID "speak up" against what we were doing concerning the evaluation. Donnie S. & I were acquaintences, I knew who he was, respected him & I think vice versa. Kevin & I became pretty close, pretty quickly during 104 (Grrrr...). He was my twig coordinator, so we kinda lived together in the wilderness for about 10 days. Under the circumstances it was pretty easy to bond.
It was our friendship that caused him/them to feel comfortable to ask me to go last in the evals. Kevin also said we needed to have some time to talk about "some things" about me, positive things. Our plan was to do the eval before leaving and have the conversation in the truck.
When we were driving and he was holding the paper across the steering wheel I asked him if I could hold it for him.
I conspicuously stared at the paper, he noticed me looking at the speedometer, then right in his eyes & kinda nodded at the seat. He shook his head, like "Yeah, this isn't smart." and put the paper on the seat. It was then that the accident happened.
The whole thing was a few seconds. It was so quick, swerving a little, bouncing, sliding, Crash! That quick.
Yes. I DID feel guilty. If I hadn't agreed to do the thing. If I had said, "This is crazy, we can't do this." If only I had...ANYTHING, maybe we wouldn't be trapped in a real life episode of the "Twilight Zone."
If that huge crack in the ground hadn't been right there we would have pulled safely off the side of the road. A slit second earlier or later, we'd have missed it.
HCW - thank you for your heartfelt and well written posts. I, for one am going to copy and paste it in to a Word Document to have on file.
I was on the very 1st LEAD group in the mountains near Gunnison. Ours was experimental, and we too, were exposed to some hazards. Being naturally adept at climbing, I was picked with a few others to do a 400' rock climb one morning. A few moves scared even me and I LOVE heights and climbing. One slip and cartain death would have been the result. Though there was a SINGLE safety lead line, there were some close calls while transitioning from point to point while unattached.
I feel we were put at risk, none of us having had any training in rock climbing, etc., including Steve our instructor. Afterwards they asked me to be on LEAD staff but I politely declined (I don't like camping :D-->)
Obviously the hitchiking was dangerous in many ways. I hitchiked a LOT, at least 8 times, in the Way Corps. It was tiring. Our 7th Corps brother, Ken and his wife were in one of the later groups. He was killed as he walked in the path of an oncoming semi truck one evening as Evelyn watched. We were all shocked and had sleepless nights of disbelief and pain.
In addition to your wonderful friend Rochelle, your sharing of this chilling incident helps me to remember and comemorate a great man, Ken, who was also a casualty while participating in TWI's LEAD program.
It also helps me feel compassion for his wonderful wife (who is still in TWI and that's OK in my opinion). She lived at the Wierwille home for a while after this incident. Personally, I would have preferred sleeping at an attorney's office for a few days but that's not the point of this thread.
In memory of our friends who have lost their lives or were seriously hurt while participating on TWI's LEAD program, thanks for this great sharing.
I feel privileged that you have decided to share this part of your life with us here.
Greasespot is a wonderful place and there are some wonderful souls here who have lived through some serious grief themselves.
I am oh so curious to see what TWI's take was on this whole thing. I'm sure it stinks.
Yes, the LEAD experience at times put people in serious peril. I went LEAD twice. The first time I didn't make it on time and was sent back. My partner and myself spent over 48 hrs without sleep by the time we got back to Emporia. We were allowed to get cleaned up but had to report to D*ve B*dard and explain why we didn't make it.
Both my partner and I said, "WE DON'T KNOW." He was disgusted and said we weren't allowed on campus (except for meals) 'til we earned the $10.00 each we were given before we left.
We spent 3 days on the streets of Emporia trying to make the money. Finally I had a brain wave (well...I guess not a real brain wave 'cause a real brain wave would have been...get the .... out of Kansas...NOW!)but, I decided to sell one of my sweaters to my partner for his fianc?nd he paid me $20.00 for it. God must have been rolling His eyes up in heaven -->
That was another thing...sending people on the road with a freghen sack lunch and $10.00 dollars that we weren't supposed to spend!
That brings back a memory of mine re LEAD. My hitching partner spent his $10 on the way back, and after we returned to Emporia, he went to his room, retrieved $10 and turned it in.
I didn't say a word. I felt guilty because I thought I should have turned him in because he "broke principal," "disobeyed the man of God" etc etc
Now that I look back on it, I'm glad I let it go, because, like said above, it was INSANE to give people $10 and tell them not to spend it.
Funny how these little memories pop up...
Anyway, HCW, like I said, thank you so much for sharing this.
Excathedra, some of your statements require a response.
quote:oldiesman, why can't you just let him tell his story ?
i know, it's a discussion forum dah dah dah
the anguish of his story gets to me, the heart even more than the physical
he's dedicating this to rochelle for christ's sake
i just can't analyze something like this. can't explain it either....
Ex, why do you reprove only me and not Satori and the others? And maybe there wouldn't even have been a response from me had you and Satori not responded with your finger-pointing blame game. But you seem to be just as good as some others with it. You call them "stupid ******* bastards".
A man doesn't have his hands on the wheel and his eyes on the road when driving the truck; the truck is being manipulated by a "gusting crosswind"; it struck a "huge crack in the road"; yet all you see and all you blame is twi and the trustees and call them "stupid ******* bastards"?
Why can't you just let him tell his story?
quote:why didn't they cancel LEAD or hitch hiking after ken died ?
How about also cancelling the production of trucks after Ken died? how about cancelling roads after Ken died?
Ken had nothing to do with the accident. It was all either LEAD, twi, the trustees, the truck, the road. And while you're at it, why not blame God for creating the earth because Ken died on it?
Put your fingerpointing blame on everything else, except individual responsibility.
It's the BOT and their negligence, and it's driving in a gusty wind and trying to read something at the same time. But why was he trying to read something at the same time as driving?
Because he was pressured to get it all done in a certain amount of time, because we were taught we were invulnerable, that we could do dangerous things and God would protect us. It surpassed common sense. It was a disaster waiting to happen and one happened.
I'm just waiting for HCW to come back with "the rest of the story."
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HCW
As far as standing up, talking back. People did that a lot, especially after POP. People got "mad as hell, and we're not gonna take it anymore!" Of my personal pet peeves was the whole money thing. T
HAPe4me
I never participated in it, but I always thought it sounded like "Outward Bound", which has been measurably more successful in achieving it's participant's goals.
So_crates
Yes, but then there's the counter teaching: If you obey the MOG, God will bless you. So what do you do when the MOG orders you to act recklessly? Rhetorical question. SoCrates
TheHighWay
Tonto... their previous experience as LEAD staff is why they put the H****ys in charge at Gunnison. I shouldn't be surprised that she scared folks with her ways. She was kind-of a wild thing! I was thrilled that I didn't have to go LEAD (trained during the fog years) since I have a distinct dislike for high places with no railings.
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Sunesis
Satori, your analysis is just excellent. Especially why, in the situation HCW was is, one wouldn't question the leader. See, leaders did and took, dumbsh#t risks like this all the time. It was nothing new.
Also, what kind of medical care did RW and others get? I knew RW was recuperating at Emporia and was so glad when I finally got to see her at H.Q. But the victims were kept kind of incommmunicado. I would imagine the leadership to their faces seemed kind and caring and concerned - why? So there would be no lawsuits. But I doubt any of them cared about these "losers" who screwed up their LEAD experience by their lack of believing.
By the way, HCW, did Donnie stay on there? Were there any repercussions for him?
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jardinero
Simon said:
You're very right there, Simon. I'm sure most of us can tell their own stories of the number of times the "organization" failed to take on any responsibility when "our believing" (or lack thereof), "our spirituality" (or lack thereof), or just plain maturity levels didn't measure up.
God, of course, never lets us down. The organization wasn't to blame. It was "the fear in the heart of that mother!!!!" crap that caused it. Almighty God certainly can't protect us when we have all that BS going on in our minds!!!!
Brother!
-->
J.
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jardinero
Tonto, yes he IS exhausting.
Not to derail this thread by getting into a side conversation with Oldies, but I do want to point out the following from my own business experience - - and I just share these as EXAMPLES of the type of responsibility (i.e., Oldies, ACCOUNTABILITY) a board member or manager of a corporation has.
1) As a board member of a nonprofit organization, I have a fiduciary oversight responsibility as a board member. Should I fail to excercise proper oversight and there is some sort of financial fraud or other mismanagement of funds and a lawsuit follows, I can be named in the lawsuit even though I've not necessarily been involved in the actual fraud or other wrong doing - - including being just plain stupid
:)-->.
2) As a manager in a corporation, when an employee comes to me and complains of discrimination, sexual or other types of harrassment and I don't report it to Human Resources for his/her permanent employee file and see to it some action is taken (that's my accountability in the matter) - - I can be named in a lawsuit and held liable for damages.
Ditto with safety regulations (like OSHA) when I fail to enforce them with my employees and someone is injured or dies.
Just wanted to bring that up.....
J.
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waterbuffalo
...edited by WB due to saying something that wasn't very ladylike...
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outandabout
Is HCW coming back with "the rest of the story?"
and thank you, HCW, for your honest accounting of what happened.
I heard about a Corps accident at LEAD involving Corps in the back of a truck, but that was about it.
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shazdancer
Legal or illegal, I think I knew back in the early 80's that riding in the back of a pickup is dangerous. And to throw 15 people back there, at 50 m.p.h., and add a homemade trailer...
Oldies, you don't think there was enough money to buy a couple of vans or buses or trailers for this work? THAT was the responsibility of the BOT. They knew how many people were being transported out to the highway.
Satori, thanks for the comparison with Wierwille's insistence on perfection and safety on his AIRPLANE!
Regards,
Shaz
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outandabout
It is really incredible to me when I recall how much into harm's way they put us.
How they toyed with our lives.
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skyrider
How many times did vpw LECTURE THE CORPS ON DETAILS.........citing how when howard allen was driving the coach that he had to be extra diligent to not swerve an inch.
ELSE......veepee would get thrown around at the back of the bus!!!!!!
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skyrider
VP could have his fancy plane and motorcoach.
BUT......corps rode in the back of a truck???
The twi hypocrisy stinks to high heaven!!!
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excathedra
((((((((((( hcw ))))))))))))
many hugs
in my humble opinion, hcw is going through something called grief. you can correct me if i'm wrong, hcw (i could be doing more "projecting" here)
i saw how he kept fighting "guilt" in his account
it's even harder when you tell something and armchair whatevers (like oldiesman) keep interjecting their "blame the trustees"
hopefully hcw is tougher than i am
oldiesman, why can't you just let him tell his story ?
i know, it's a discussion forum dah dah dah
the anguish of his story gets to me, the heart even more than the physical
he's dedicating this to rochelle for christ's sake
i just can't analyze something like this. can't explain it either....
and the part about these fine people being the rejects or losers. ohgod i can't even bear it. i was sent lead with my fiance. i remember craig saying, let's see if you two can make it as a couple. .... you
and hitching.... a car almost killed us. my bag went flying across the highway. it was so close to being me or us, i am sick by the memory
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excathedra
and yeah the plane the coach and all that. let's keep "the man of god" safe. forget the little peon punks
why didn't they cancel LEAD or hitch hiking after ken died ?
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alfakat
so refresh me on whose believing was at fault again when ole vp checked out......
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Eagle
HCW is not responding for a while, I suppose, maybe reliving the grief over it. But how and when did Rochelle pass away? He said half her scalp was cut away to see her skull, but she was conscious and with that description, a lot of stitching and IV antibiotics and morphine would pull her through. Anyone know when she passed away and what the cause of death was?
This sounds pretty horrendous.
{{{{{{{Rochelle}}}}}}}
Eagle
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Nottawayfer
They still never changed even in the 2001. A friend I had who was in rez at that time told me the following: They were told that they could have a time to bring up everything they were questioning...(i.e. lcm's screwups, Donna still being kork, etc.).
Someone brought up a bus that was used to transport the kork and questioned the safety of it. The kork coord said it was fine, but then a guy in rez who worked in transportation piped up and said the safety of it was questionable also. This guy got a talking to and had to go back and recind his statement in front of the kork the next day. Twi sold the bus shortly thereafter.....Guilty!!!!
Of course they were given BS answers to the other things (i.e. Donna is still kork because it's a different administration)....whatever....
HCW, it is incredibly brave for you to write this stuff. Thanks for sharing it. I hope you are able to finish.
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HCW
This is the FIRST time since the accident that I've shared the whole story with anyone. I actually never read the entire pieces from my journal either.
I was up all night posting that stuff. Once I got into the flow I felt I should go with it.
It was incredibly painful for me. I spent a good part of the day crying, connecting with the whole thing like that was hard.
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HCW
Rochelle survived her injuries from the accident and died in the summer of 83. If you think you're ....ed now....
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HCW
Before I continue.
Thank you for your support. I really appreciate it. Don't worry. My skin is as thick as the armor on an M1-A1 battle tank.
___________________________
I answer to some questions. I actually DID "speak up" against what we were doing concerning the evaluation. Donnie S. & I were acquaintences, I knew who he was, respected him & I think vice versa. Kevin & I became pretty close, pretty quickly during 104 (Grrrr...). He was my twig coordinator, so we kinda lived together in the wilderness for about 10 days. Under the circumstances it was pretty easy to bond.
It was our friendship that caused him/them to feel comfortable to ask me to go last in the evals. Kevin also said we needed to have some time to talk about "some things" about me, positive things. Our plan was to do the eval before leaving and have the conversation in the truck.
When we were driving and he was holding the paper across the steering wheel I asked him if I could hold it for him.
I conspicuously stared at the paper, he noticed me looking at the speedometer, then right in his eyes & kinda nodded at the seat. He shook his head, like "Yeah, this isn't smart." and put the paper on the seat. It was then that the accident happened.
The whole thing was a few seconds. It was so quick, swerving a little, bouncing, sliding, Crash! That quick.
Yes. I DID feel guilty. If I hadn't agreed to do the thing. If I had said, "This is crazy, we can't do this." If only I had...ANYTHING, maybe we wouldn't be trapped in a real life episode of the "Twilight Zone."
If that huge crack in the ground hadn't been right there we would have pulled safely off the side of the road. A slit second earlier or later, we'd have missed it.
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igotout
HCW - thank you for your heartfelt and well written posts. I, for one am going to copy and paste it in to a Word Document to have on file.
I was on the very 1st LEAD group in the mountains near Gunnison. Ours was experimental, and we too, were exposed to some hazards. Being naturally adept at climbing, I was picked with a few others to do a 400' rock climb one morning. A few moves scared even me and I LOVE heights and climbing. One slip and cartain death would have been the result. Though there was a SINGLE safety lead line, there were some close calls while transitioning from point to point while unattached.
I feel we were put at risk, none of us having had any training in rock climbing, etc., including Steve our instructor. Afterwards they asked me to be on LEAD staff but I politely declined (I don't like camping
:D-->)
Obviously the hitchiking was dangerous in many ways. I hitchiked a LOT, at least 8 times, in the Way Corps. It was tiring. Our 7th Corps brother, Ken and his wife were in one of the later groups. He was killed as he walked in the path of an oncoming semi truck one evening as Evelyn watched. We were all shocked and had sleepless nights of disbelief and pain.
In addition to your wonderful friend Rochelle, your sharing of this chilling incident helps me to remember and comemorate a great man, Ken, who was also a casualty while participating in TWI's LEAD program.
It also helps me feel compassion for his wonderful wife (who is still in TWI and that's OK in my opinion). She lived at the Wierwille home for a while after this incident. Personally, I would have preferred sleeping at an attorney's office for a few days but that's not the point of this thread.
In memory of our friends who have lost their lives or were seriously hurt while participating on TWI's LEAD program, thanks for this great sharing.
John R.
Tampa, FL
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A la prochaine
HCW,
Yes, like Igotout shared...please continue.
I feel privileged that you have decided to share this part of your life with us here.
Greasespot is a wonderful place and there are some wonderful souls here who have lived through some serious grief themselves.
I am oh so curious to see what TWI's take was on this whole thing. I'm sure it stinks.
Yes, the LEAD experience at times put people in serious peril. I went LEAD twice. The first time I didn't make it on time and was sent back. My partner and myself spent over 48 hrs without sleep by the time we got back to Emporia. We were allowed to get cleaned up but had to report to D*ve B*dard and explain why we didn't make it.
Both my partner and I said, "WE DON'T KNOW." He was disgusted and said we weren't allowed on campus (except for meals) 'til we earned the $10.00 each we were given before we left.
We spent 3 days on the streets of Emporia trying to make the money. Finally I had a brain wave (well...I guess not a real brain wave 'cause a real brain wave would have been...get the .... out of Kansas...NOW!)but, I decided to sell one of my sweaters to my partner for his fianc?nd he paid me $20.00 for it. God must have been rolling His eyes up in heaven
-->
That was another thing...sending people on the road with a freghen sack lunch and $10.00 dollars that we weren't supposed to spend!
MY GOD...HOW INSANE IS THAT!
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outandabout
Exactly, how INSANE is that!!!
That brings back a memory of mine re LEAD. My hitching partner spent his $10 on the way back, and after we returned to Emporia, he went to his room, retrieved $10 and turned it in.
I didn't say a word. I felt guilty because I thought I should have turned him in because he "broke principal," "disobeyed the man of God" etc etc
Now that I look back on it, I'm glad I let it go, because, like said above, it was INSANE to give people $10 and tell them not to spend it.
Funny how these little memories pop up...
Anyway, HCW, like I said, thank you so much for sharing this.
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oldiesman
Excathedra, some of your statements require a response.
Ex, why do you reprove only me and not Satori and the others? And maybe there wouldn't even have been a response from me had you and Satori not responded with your finger-pointing blame game. But you seem to be just as good as some others with it. You call them "stupid ******* bastards".A man doesn't have his hands on the wheel and his eyes on the road when driving the truck; the truck is being manipulated by a "gusting crosswind"; it struck a "huge crack in the road"; yet all you see and all you blame is twi and the trustees and call them "stupid ******* bastards"?
Why can't you just let him tell his story?
How about also cancelling the production of trucks after Ken died? how about cancelling roads after Ken died?Ken had nothing to do with the accident. It was all either LEAD, twi, the trustees, the truck, the road. And while you're at it, why not blame God for creating the earth because Ken died on it?
Put your fingerpointing blame on everything else, except individual responsibility.
It's as fraudulent as a 3-dollar bill.
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outandabout
There's a lot of blame to go around.
It's the BOT and their negligence, and it's driving in a gusty wind and trying to read something at the same time. But why was he trying to read something at the same time as driving?
Because he was pressured to get it all done in a certain amount of time, because we were taught we were invulnerable, that we could do dangerous things and God would protect us. It surpassed common sense. It was a disaster waiting to happen and one happened.
I'm just waiting for HCW to come back with "the rest of the story."
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excathedra
i don't know, oldies
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