ps, I'm glad Rochelle had someone like you as a friend, and I'm sorry for the hurt you've had. Thank you for telling us more about her. She was a beautiful young woman, and I trust all will be made right for her in the end. God doesn't "kick us out" or send us away.
GS is a great way to rediscover old friends. I hope you'll stay and find some. Welcome.
Thanks for letting us know about NK, the truth about the people, I mean. Sounds like a BEAUTIFUL place to live. Gosh, who wouldn't want to live in a place like that?
Also, I sat here crying that you chose to stay for your daughter. You are a good man! I tend to get choked up about things like that--the genuine love thing and sacrifices that have to be made always impress me.
I'm mew to GS myself. Even as a 'newbie' I think most everyone would agree that posts like yours are PRECISELY the RIGHT thing, hitting the PIN on its point as to what these forums are about.
Yes. This thread, I'm finding is a very healing thing for me. Healing in ways I didn't forsee. Excathedra and Ala and a couple of others can tell you I was really not that gung ho about sharing it. We were chatting & they gently yet firmly encouraged to to tell the story. (I knew they wouldn't leave me alone til I did. :)--> ) I didn't imagine it would be going strong 35 pages later.
Your post pulls out even more that I wasn't able to communicate, in that is was buried under the pain of her loss.
quote: I had never been loved so verbally might I say. She was a diamond in the rough. She was a great woman and worth the effort to know and couldn't help but love once you did know her. She was honest and caring and appreciated LOVE. She was a sponge for it.
Rochelle was fortunate to have a friend like you. BTW I know exactly who you are. We had lots of fun back there, gettin' in trouble makin' noise, with your laughing & giggling. Please accept my tearful THANK YOU for your fantastic contribution to Rochelle's memory.
I still consider myself to be 11th Way Corps. As you said, "We did a lot of growing up together."
When I think of the 11th Way Corps:
quote:
I will keep good thoughts, energy, prayers what ever positives I can send your way to your healing in this. Hopefully this has been a very healing experience in sharing this.
THAT is what I think about. I have absolutely NO doubt in my mind that you'd feel that way, because that is what WE were about. Regardless of what was or wasn't wrong with the ministry there was a moment in time when that wild foot crazy group became "WE."
I'll never forget that. I'll never forget all of the "we" times WE shared... Rochelle was a part of WE, a part of US. WE all grieve her loss.
All that was WRONG with TWI should NOT be allowed to squelch all that was RIGHT in each and every ONE of US, ALL of us, beyond US 11th through to every person who ever got involved. Nobody can take friendships like you had w/Rochelle away from you, NOBODY. I think TWI telling people, YOU are NOT WC or a "deciple" or whatever THEY say we're NOT anymore is just another piece of the BULL SH%Tthey "promulgate" that "prevails" through the organization.
I don't think see my designation as 11th Way Corps as tying me to TWI, my being ELEVENTH WAY CORPS, ties me to YOU, ps, and all of the rest of us. Hey if THEY can change MY designation to whatever THEY want I can chge THEIR designation to whatever WE want.
I feel like my changing the way I refer to myself because THEY said so is yet another way that I give THEM power over me. Its another, middle-finger-intensive, way of them CONTROLLING me. I feel that every time I say "I used to be WC" I am doing it because THEY say so.
I'm upset with them for what they did. I believe what they did was WRONG, so should I now say they are RIGHT to tell me what I'm NOT.
Hell no. They will say NOTHING to define ME in any WAY. When I went into The Way Corps, it was irrelevant to me that MY 'Lifetime of Christian Service' was associated w/TWI. The term "Way Corps," to me, was associated with my serving God's people. The "WAY" part of Way Corps was supposed to refer to Jesus Christ, who IS THE WAY, the truth, the life.
WC was SUPPOSED to be about Jesus; JC, NOT VP. The only way I consider my saying, "Yes. I'm 11th Corps" connects me to TWI at this point in life is that I'M being a little "middle-finger-intensive" to THEM.
That's how I see it. I'll always see you as my little 11th Corps sister as well.
Fantastic post. Welcome to GreaseSpot....
"P@##$ cake P@##$ cake bak-ers man, Make me a cake as fast as you can" ;)-->
quote: quote:Yes Linda. Our entire society is set up so that men leave their children in favor of bucks.
Now you've lost me... What do you mean?
Our society assumes that men will be the hunter-gatherer and win the bread, and bring home the bacon when there is wife and children involved.
We fathers, in general, buy into that and LEAVE our children while we go to work. The more "successful" we are professionally, the more we are GONE, putting in hours at work.
Society tell us we are successful. We "provide for" our families while fathers are largely absent from them. Statistically, fathers in two parent home spend about 12 minutes (is it per day or week, I forget) with the individual child in his family.
That's GONE, as in left, as in not there.
The whole divorce arena, which 42% of marriages end up in (24% of "Christian marriages) is set with a presumption that the mother will keep the children while Dad works and pays child support to the MOM.
Dad is EXPECTED to be GONE. In my first divorce, the majistrate, partially in effort to ease my dismay in losing custody of my daughter, said,
"...Besides, not living with your daughter will free you to have time to work and earn a better living for her and all of you." In other words, GO, be gone, send back money, become a VISITOR in your childs life.
That's what I'm talking about Jim.
Now that I have custody of my son's people who work in and are familiar with the divorce industry consistently commend me, saying how few fathers there are who even TRY to get custody.
In essence. Fathers are gone. Society is now defininf that the single best key to stop abuses of females in our society, such as have been discussed as rampant in TWI, is a strong realtionship with their fathers.
If we're gone? How can we "be there" for our children.
Yeah, my older brother was very much against me staying in NK. We discussed it at short length, if that makes any sense. We talked for a long time about the short topic, "my daughter needs ME."
My big brother (of a whole 2 1/2yrs) loves me dearly. I can count on him to be in my face about any stupid thing I do. We discussed all of the pro's and cons. He said something like, "What if you make enough $$$$$$$$ to BUY a nice town." I said something like;
"What if my daughter hates me, silently, for leaving her AND her mother? What if she understands, which she does, the "Mom" piece, how can she understand me leaving HER?"
He had no comeback for that.
BTW excie, Its my brother who's the actor, his wife is a documentary film writer. They don't have any kids. My bro made his choice career first then family, I chose family then career.
My brother Leland has worked in film, television, radio, broadway , off-broadway, regional and local theatre. His wife Michelle does mostly film & TV.
I'm presuming you were curious as to whether you've seen 'em. You've probably seen my brother as he's had significant roles in a few pretty big flicks. He has an HBO movie that plays pretty regularly. Michelle's stuff is pretty heady, Like an HBO ducumentary called "Blue Vynil." I love my sis & all but I fell asleep watchin it. Click the links, their bodies of work is pretty impressive. They've worked w/folks like Gwynneth Paltro, Whoopi Goldberg, Harrison Ford, Joe Peschi, Denzel Washington, to name a few.
I'll tell you. Its pretty wierd doing a google search on yer brother & seeing a bunch of links pop up.
They kicked your (now ex) husband off staff for drinking??? What a crock.
I'll never forget the first time I saw VPW get drunk.
+++++++++++++
I've had a few chicks "plant one" on me too. They were usually cute & I was a little flattered, or thought the same kinda thing that maybe they only knew how to kiss like that. Evidently they were "fishing' or "recruiting."
How gross. Immorality aside, its not like any of those guys were actually like, HOT, or attractive.
Ugh. How gross. I never even kissed any older women on the mouth. I was uncomfortable with the notion of kissing ANY married woman on the mouth, at all. I felt like it "wasn't my mouth" to kiss and that a kiss on the cheek was a perfectly fine way to show Godly affection for someone.
I remember talking about people taking advantage of the kissing. People would name then , like did you ever do a "sidewinder?" Or the "air" kiss? I don't mean to make light fo it, but it got pretty rediculous how folks would "try stuff." I've actually yanked guys off of women who were obviously shocked & grossed out by guys "taking liberties." Lingering kisses, sliding hands, etc. I almost thre a guy on the floor once. He put a "hammerlock" kiss on my WOW sister at twig one night.
HCW, I've been reading and rereading your posts in regards to fathers and their kids but I don't entirely understand or agree with what you are saying, so here goes..............you mentioned you have been "slogging through months on unemployment compensation" because you were overqualified at jobs you applied for. Would that not of been in your eyes a "benefit" to you so you could stay home and raise your daughter in light of what you have just shared about fathers spending more time with their kids?
Now correct me if I am wrong but you come across to me as though the fathers that have to go to work and earn a living are the ones in the wrong cause they don't stay at home to raise the kids. If there is a spouse involved maybe that is the arrangement they have made, Dad goes off to work and mom raises the kids, and perhaps that is what works best for them in that situation. Who are you to judge fathers that go off and earn money to support their families. Maybe that is what it takes to keep them out of the welfare situation.
What about if they are a single father or a single mom and the only income is that one parent, are you going to condemn them too because they can't stay at home and raise their kid because they need to put a roof over their kid's head and food on the table. And one more thing, there are a lot of fathers out there who would prefer not to be the primary care giver and still love their kids just as much as the one who stays home and does it.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you are trying to get across but for what it's worth I'd let people make their own decisions when it involves their own kids and not be pointing a finger at anyone else just because they don't do it your way.
quote:Our society assumes that men will be the hunter-gatherer and win the bread, and bring home the bacon when there is wife and children involved.
We fathers, in general, buy into that and LEAVE our children while we go to work. The more "successful" we are professionally, the more we are GONE, putting in hours at work.
Society tell us we are successful. We "provide for" our families while fathers are largely absent from them. Statistically, fathers in two parent home spend about 12 minutes (is it per day or week, I forget) with the individual child in his family.
That's GONE, as in left, as in not there.
The whole divorce arena, which 42% of marriages end up in (24% of "Christian marriages) is set with a presumption that the mother will keep the children while Dad works and pays child support to the MOM.
Dad is EXPECTED to be GONE. In my first divorce, the majistrate, partially in effort to ease my dismay in losing custody of my daughter, said,
"...Besides, not living with your daughter will free you to have time to work and earn a better living for her and all of you." In other words, GO, be gone, send back money, become a VISITOR in your childs life.
That's what I'm talking about Jim.
I hear what you're saying, but it does not have to be that way.
I'm a self-taught computer engineer. Hardware and software. I'm pretty good at what I do. That said, I avoided silicon valley jobs like the plague. I've always worked 40 hours a week, with flexable hours to accomodate my wife and daughter.
I turned down $90k/year jobs to have time for my family. I commuted on a motorcycle and worked close to home so I could get home early.
When my daughter was 8, I started my own business. My wife worked 8 hours a day as a technician and a software tester, I stayed at home, developed a product and picked up my daughter from school. I also made time to help coach and referee her soccer team. It happens that raising a child came a little easier to me than to my wife so we went with the flow. We also made a conscience decision to only have one child. Why? Because we were getting old, 35+ and we knew our limitations as parents.
Things were hard and there wasn't a lot of money for a few years. Not being in TWI helped as we were able to buy a cheap house and accumulate equity.
Now, the daughter is 18 and has moved out. She's made me very proud, graduating 4.0 and being student director of the auditioned girl's chorus in high school. So I have no cause to complain about the system or culture. Sometimes I am a little sad, not having raised a son, but I hire a lot of 18-20 year old males and it's fun to work with and teach them.
I heard what you said, HCW and I understand. Nonetheless, I made a committment to actively raise my girl and I think I did a pretty good job. From your earlier posts, you must have done a pretty good job raising your kids as well.
You know I read the first 15 pages of this thread and then had to wait to get in to add my two cents and in the process you all just kept on talking and added another 15+ pages for me to read and when I finally realized I could post I just blurted it all out with out looking at what all you all talked about...
Sorry, I am sure all of that was unnecessary to tell you but anyway, I just saw the photos…OH MY what a treasure to see my Rochelle again. What were the rest of their names. Jim _____ is in front of Rochelle, right? The girl to your right ALWAYS had that million-dollar smile. To her right looks like Al Chase but I think he had already dropped. Is it Paul Goldberg (who in the 11th WC thread I miss stated his man as Al)? Is that Jim (I can’t remember his last name, good friends with Darrell Hampton and he dated Kathleen _______ she had lots of money and from CA I am pretty sure). I guess some of these might have been 13th WC but they all look like 11th to me.
Thank you so much for these pictures.
The 11th WC really loved each other and I know we had nothing else to compare it to maybe all the Corps were as close as us I hope so. We were a tenacious and VERY funny group. I always felt like a part of me left the Corps when anyone was “released” from the WC. We worked hard and VERY efficiently with so much laughter. I loved it.
Thank you for your beautiful post. You gave to me a picture of Rochelle I hadn't gotten yet.
You really made her human for me somehow.
Now, you mentioned that she did spend a considerable amount of time on the coach with vp.
I would think if he was such a MOG he could have certainly helped her with her inner anguish. Obviously, it didn't seem to work. I guess we will never really know what did go on behind those closed doors.
So sad.
My heart does go out to you and all of Rochelle's friends. What a loss.
Its very nice that yall are great parents. Guess what it doesn't mean sheet. Your kids have their own brains and will be their own persons regaurdless of what you did. I have a older daughter who is wonderful does every thing right. I have a son that is a drug addict and has been in jail a few times and i'm the same parent.
Cowgirl of course its my fault i work and my kids suffered for it. They had shoes and a roof over there head and food to eat. The more needy child even went to a top private school that cost more that college. See its all my fault.
quote: Now correct me if I am wrong but you come across to me as though the fathers that have to go to work and earn a living are the ones in the wrong cause they don't stay at home to raise the kids.
If you insist on putting it in terms of right & wrong, I'd have to say, "You're wrong."
I'm not "coming across" as though fathers who work to support their families are wrong. How CRAZY is that?
quote: What about if they are a single father or a single mom and the only income is that one parent, are you going to condemn them too because they can't stay at home and raise their kid because they need to put a roof over their kid's head and food on the table
Are YOU a single parent? I am. Condemn them TOO!??? I'm not condemning ANYbody.
quote: Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you are trying to get across
You certainly are misunderstanding what I said. I'm not pointing fingers at anybody. I didn't say jack about anybody who should do it "my way." Evidently you think I said "my way" is to say at home & "slog around on unemployment compensation."
I didn't say I AM slogging around. I said I WAS at the time I was referring to. I said absolutely NOTHING about anyone making a decision to work outside their home.
I'm not gonna defend things I didn't say. I didn't say squat about "my" way. I don't even have a "my way."
I will say: Jim. You're precisely the kind of Dad I'm talking about. I'm not, nor would I ever question your decisions in your life. Nor am I "complaining" about the system or our culture.
You "made a committment to actively raise (your) girl" CONGRATULATIONS on her accomplishments. I know how you must feel. My 18yr old daughter has a list of accomplishments herself. I'll tell you something my older brother recently told me... your daughters accomplishments reflect positively on you.
It is obvious that you are not part of the statistical norm.
Did YOU :)--> have to buy any new shirts? Buttons poppin' off & all? I wear a lot of sweaters. ;)-->
In closing cowgirl. I aint mad at you girl! I was talking about what "Our society assumes..." As Jim pointed out AND illustrated, It doesn't HAVE to be that way. I wasn't saying I think Fathers shouldn't work. That's rediculous.
Nonetheless society STILL believes it IS not only OK but the preferred "way" that the father chase "success" at the expense of his children. SOCIETY believes that the "car" or whatever trapping a $90+ THOUSand DOOLLars job can provide joy that would replace the loss of DAD's PRESENCE for the EXTRA hours Dad would have to be GONE to earn the $90k.
Jim said he "turned down $90k/year jobs to have time for my family. I commuted on a motorcycle and worked close to home so I could get home" ... because the job would keep him away.
I've been a highly paid slave for some of the largest companies in the world. I wasn't getting at "to work or not to work" that was NOT the question.
Point blank. I believe that more fathers should be like Jim and make a conscious decision to "be there" for their children.
I've worked with and seen globetrotting executives. The work generally consumes them and permeates their life. As a general rule a job will "require" 10 hrs/wk for every $10K/yr you make.
I believe that the biggest word missing from our society today is ENOUGH. In this context a Father MUST find a way to be there ENOUGH for his children, as well as his chosen profession regardless of what he does.
Do you have a problem with that? Geeze we sure argue enough here on GSpot. :)--> :)--> ;)--> -->
You seem to be awfully angry Danny. I certainly didn't say anything that should be connected with your situation that I didn't know anything about. Please do not connect dots that don't apply.
I was no more involved in your life than you, mine.
IF you are struggling with responsibility concerning your son and how much you did or did not work outside your home; please hear THIS.
Having a child with problems, does NOT make you a "bad" parent. It only classifies you as parent of a child who has problems. IF you feel you made mistakes, you can certainly alter your path.
If your parenting didn't "mean sheet" then HOW can YOU be at fault for your son choosing to be his own person that is a drug addict?
Seems to me like the "blame" is coming FROM you TOWARDS you.
Blame IS the problem. A separate problem that connects itself to situations and profits nobody more than a little.
Thanks for the kind words. The longer I thought about this subject, the more clear it became that my path might not be an option for some men. If you worked in an advertising related field, which seems likely given your talents, nearly all jobs require a "work on it until it's done" attitude.
I've been lucky most of the time. I was able to pick and choose jobs that were not bleeding edge-work you until you drop types. I've also defied all odds by building a successful business while only working 40-45 hours a week I give my wife/business partner much of credit for that.
And finally, the success of our kids, and for that matter ourselves, also speaks highly of our parents.
"Her life's dream was dashed. The 11th Corps, for as much as anyone may (with good reason)hate TWI or the WC, was a special group of people. We bonded and became a "family," which Rochelle really longed for. Our Way Productions bands were really decent, TWI produced an album by "Called Out" titled "We're in This Thing Together" from a song of the same name that became our theme song for our Corps.
It was so very important to Rochelle to graduate with us. I'm sure JAL was just as callous w/her in telling, not asking, not accepting or considering her feedback about her leaving the Corps, as he was with me. Devastating."
You captured Rochelle perfectly in that assessment of her. She was very strong, self-sufficient, determined to do it all right, to make people proud of her (especially her brother). She was hard on herself. She had a very hard time forgiving herself. She could forgive others of the world but had trouble doing that for herself.
It has been mentioned about Rochelle never being the same after the accident. A year after Rochelle’s death, my first year as a “Corps Grad” I was in the Detroit area (still am) and I had witnessed to some neighbors of mine (a husband and wife and the one of the brother’s of the husband). The husband’s other brother had been in a bad motorcycle accident and had severe head trauma and was never the same after the accident. A horrible dark cloud was over his life. They always told me that I needed to talk to him too. I kept just missing him though. One night after Twig I drove by their house and saw his motorcycle there and I thought, “I should go over there.” Instead I stayed at one of the other neighbor’s houses that had gone to twig with me that night. When I went home the brother’s motorcycle was gone. The next morning I got the call that he had committed suicide after leaving their place that night. He had left and went to a park and blew his brains out. We were all so devastated. They asked me to do the funeral home service the night before the “funeral”. There was about 100 people at the funeral home. It was an amazing experience. I was so thankful for my Corps Training about doing memorial services. I was also thankful to have already lived through the death of Rochelle and realizing the dead end paths of “IF ONLY I HAD…” and how those endless questions will slowly kill you too if you don’t stop it and just except it. It also was established to me the agony Rochelle lived with and how almost impossible it was for her to control her mind that was in severe pain constantly.
All I can say is WOW! About 10 days later, 36 pages, over 700 posts and nearly 17500 views on this thread alone. What if only 10% of those views were single readers, like me, what's the word? Trolls? Moles? Microbes? No, that's not it. But, whatever ... checking in from time to time to catch up, rarely (if ever) posting. That's over 1700 folks who still care to know about "the rest of the story" about TWI.
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HCW
As far as standing up, talking back. People did that a lot, especially after POP. People got "mad as hell, and we're not gonna take it anymore!" Of my personal pet peeves was the whole money thing. T
HAPe4me
I never participated in it, but I always thought it sounded like "Outward Bound", which has been measurably more successful in achieving it's participant's goals.
So_crates
Yes, but then there's the counter teaching: If you obey the MOG, God will bless you. So what do you do when the MOG orders you to act recklessly? Rhetorical question. SoCrates
Linda Z
ps, I'm glad Rochelle had someone like you as a friend, and I'm sorry for the hurt you've had. Thank you for telling us more about her. She was a beautiful young woman, and I trust all will be made right for her in the end. God doesn't "kick us out" or send us away.
GS is a great way to rediscover old friends. I hope you'll stay and find some. Welcome.
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waterbuffalo
Howard,
Thanks for letting us know about NK, the truth about the people, I mean. Sounds like a BEAUTIFUL place to live. Gosh, who wouldn't want to live in a place like that?
Also, I sat here crying that you chose to stay for your daughter. You are a good man! I tend to get choked up about things like that--the genuine love thing and sacrifices that have to be made always impress me.
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HCW
(((((((((((((PS))))))))))))))
I'm mew to GS myself. Even as a 'newbie' I think most everyone would agree that posts like yours are PRECISELY the RIGHT thing, hitting the PIN on its point as to what these forums are about.
Yes. This thread, I'm finding is a very healing thing for me. Healing in ways I didn't forsee. Excathedra and Ala and a couple of others can tell you I was really not that gung ho about sharing it. We were chatting & they gently yet firmly encouraged to to tell the story. (I knew they wouldn't leave me alone til I did.
:)--> 
) I didn't imagine it would be going strong 35 pages later.
Your post pulls out even more that I wasn't able to communicate, in that is was buried under the pain of her loss.
Rochelle was fortunate to have a friend like you. BTW I know exactly who you are. We had lots of fun back there, gettin' in trouble makin' noise, with your laughing & giggling. Please accept my tearful THANK YOU for your fantastic contribution to Rochelle's memory.
I still consider myself to be 11th Way Corps. As you said, "We did a lot of growing up together."
When I think of the 11th Way Corps:
THAT is what I think about. I have absolutely NO doubt in my mind that you'd feel that way, because that is what WE were about. Regardless of what was or wasn't wrong with the ministry there was a moment in time when that wild foot crazy group became "WE."
I'll never forget that. I'll never forget all of the "we" times WE shared... Rochelle was a part of WE, a part of US. WE all grieve her loss.
All that was WRONG with TWI should NOT be allowed to squelch all that was RIGHT in each and every ONE of US, ALL of us, beyond US 11th through to every person who ever got involved. Nobody can take friendships like you had w/Rochelle away from you, NOBODY. I think TWI telling people, YOU are NOT WC or a "deciple" or whatever THEY say we're NOT anymore is just another piece of the BULL SH%Tthey "promulgate" that "prevails" through the organization.
I don't think see my designation as 11th Way Corps as tying me to TWI, my being ELEVENTH WAY CORPS, ties me to YOU, ps, and all of the rest of us. Hey if THEY can change MY designation to whatever THEY want I can chge THEIR designation to whatever WE want.
I feel like my changing the way I refer to myself because THEY said so is yet another way that I give THEM power over me. Its another, middle-finger-intensive, way of them CONTROLLING me. I feel that every time I say "I used to be WC" I am doing it because THEY say so.
I'm upset with them for what they did. I believe what they did was WRONG, so should I now say they are RIGHT to tell me what I'm NOT.
Hell no. They will say NOTHING to define ME in any WAY. When I went into The Way Corps, it was irrelevant to me that MY 'Lifetime of Christian Service' was associated w/TWI. The term "Way Corps," to me, was associated with my serving God's people. The "WAY" part of Way Corps was supposed to refer to Jesus Christ, who IS THE WAY, the truth, the life.
WC was SUPPOSED to be about Jesus; JC, NOT VP. The only way I consider my saying, "Yes. I'm 11th Corps" connects me to TWI at this point in life is that I'M being a little "middle-finger-intensive" to THEM.
That's how I see it. I'll always see you as my little 11th Corps sister as well.
Fantastic post. Welcome to GreaseSpot....
"P@##$ cake P@##$ cake bak-ers man, Make me a cake as fast as you can"
;)-->
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vickles
Ok, now that some of the 11th corps are coming out I would like to invite all of you to the 11th corps thread.
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HCW
Jim;
Our society assumes that men will be the hunter-gatherer and win the bread, and bring home the bacon when there is wife and children involved.
We fathers, in general, buy into that and LEAVE our children while we go to work. The more "successful" we are professionally, the more we are GONE, putting in hours at work.
Society tell us we are successful. We "provide for" our families while fathers are largely absent from them. Statistically, fathers in two parent home spend about 12 minutes (is it per day or week, I forget) with the individual child in his family.
That's GONE, as in left, as in not there.
The whole divorce arena, which 42% of marriages end up in (24% of "Christian marriages) is set with a presumption that the mother will keep the children while Dad works and pays child support to the MOM.
Dad is EXPECTED to be GONE. In my first divorce, the majistrate, partially in effort to ease my dismay in losing custody of my daughter, said,
"...Besides, not living with your daughter will free you to have time to work and earn a better living for her and all of you." In other words, GO, be gone, send back money, become a VISITOR in your childs life.
That's what I'm talking about Jim.
Now that I have custody of my son's people who work in and are familiar with the divorce industry consistently commend me, saying how few fathers there are who even TRY to get custody.
In essence. Fathers are gone. Society is now defininf that the single best key to stop abuses of females in our society, such as have been discussed as rampant in TWI, is a strong realtionship with their fathers.
If we're gone? How can we "be there" for our children.
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HCW
excathedra
Weren't you 9th?
Still eldering me, my "mom in the (cuss) words."
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HCW
W-buffalo;
Yeah, my older brother was very much against me staying in NK. We discussed it at short length, if that makes any sense. We talked for a long time about the short topic, "my daughter needs ME."
My big brother (of a whole 2 1/2yrs) loves me dearly. I can count on him to be in my face about any stupid thing I do. We discussed all of the pro's and cons. He said something like, "What if you make enough $$$$$$$$ to BUY a nice town." I said something like;
"What if my daughter hates me, silently, for leaving her AND her mother? What if she understands, which she does, the "Mom" piece, how can she understand me leaving HER?"
He had no comeback for that.
BTW excie, Its my brother who's the actor, his wife is a documentary film writer. They don't have any kids. My bro made his choice career first then family, I chose family then career.
My brother Leland has worked in film, television, radio, broadway , off-broadway, regional and local theatre. His wife Michelle does mostly film & TV.
I'm presuming you were curious as to whether you've seen 'em. You've probably seen my brother as he's had significant roles in a few pretty big flicks. He has an HBO movie that plays pretty regularly. Michelle's stuff is pretty heady, Like an HBO ducumentary called "Blue Vynil." I love my sis & all but I fell asleep watchin it. Click the links, their bodies of work is pretty impressive. They've worked w/folks like Gwynneth Paltro, Whoopi Goldberg, Harrison Ford, Joe Peschi, Denzel Washington, to name a few.
I'll tell you. Its pretty wierd doing a google search on yer brother & seeing a bunch of links pop up.
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HCW
Shaz;
They kicked your (now ex) husband off staff for drinking??? What a crock.
I'll never forget the first time I saw VPW get drunk.
+++++++++++++
I've had a few chicks "plant one" on me too. They were usually cute & I was a little flattered, or thought the same kinda thing that maybe they only knew how to kiss like that. Evidently they were "fishing' or "recruiting."
How gross. Immorality aside, its not like any of those guys were actually like, HOT, or attractive.
Ugh. How gross. I never even kissed any older women on the mouth. I was uncomfortable with the notion of kissing ANY married woman on the mouth, at all. I felt like it "wasn't my mouth" to kiss and that a kiss on the cheek was a perfectly fine way to show Godly affection for someone.
I remember talking about people taking advantage of the kissing. People would name then , like did you ever do a "sidewinder?" Or the "air" kiss? I don't mean to make light fo it, but it got pretty rediculous how folks would "try stuff." I've actually yanked guys off of women who were obviously shocked & grossed out by guys "taking liberties." Lingering kisses, sliding hands, etc. I almost thre a guy on the floor once. He put a "hammerlock" kiss on my WOW sister at twig one night.
He was no longer "welcome at the way"....
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Cowgirl
HCW, I've been reading and rereading your posts in regards to fathers and their kids but I don't entirely understand or agree with what you are saying, so here goes..............you mentioned you have been "slogging through months on unemployment compensation" because you were overqualified at jobs you applied for. Would that not of been in your eyes a "benefit" to you so you could stay home and raise your daughter in light of what you have just shared about fathers spending more time with their kids?
Now correct me if I am wrong but you come across to me as though the fathers that have to go to work and earn a living are the ones in the wrong cause they don't stay at home to raise the kids. If there is a spouse involved maybe that is the arrangement they have made, Dad goes off to work and mom raises the kids, and perhaps that is what works best for them in that situation. Who are you to judge fathers that go off and earn money to support their families. Maybe that is what it takes to keep them out of the welfare situation.
What about if they are a single father or a single mom and the only income is that one parent, are you going to condemn them too because they can't stay at home and raise their kid because they need to put a roof over their kid's head and food on the table. And one more thing, there are a lot of fathers out there who would prefer not to be the primary care giver and still love their kids just as much as the one who stays home and does it.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you are trying to get across but for what it's worth I'd let people make their own decisions when it involves their own kids and not be pointing a finger at anyone else just because they don't do it your way.
Cowgirl
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Jim
I hear what you're saying, but it does not have to be that way.
I'm a self-taught computer engineer. Hardware and software. I'm pretty good at what I do. That said, I avoided silicon valley jobs like the plague. I've always worked 40 hours a week, with flexable hours to accomodate my wife and daughter.
I turned down $90k/year jobs to have time for my family. I commuted on a motorcycle and worked close to home so I could get home early.
When my daughter was 8, I started my own business. My wife worked 8 hours a day as a technician and a software tester, I stayed at home, developed a product and picked up my daughter from school. I also made time to help coach and referee her soccer team. It happens that raising a child came a little easier to me than to my wife so we went with the flow. We also made a conscience decision to only have one child. Why? Because we were getting old, 35+ and we knew our limitations as parents.
Things were hard and there wasn't a lot of money for a few years. Not being in TWI helped as we were able to buy a cheap house and accumulate equity.
Now, the daughter is 18 and has moved out. She's made me very proud, graduating 4.0 and being student director of the auditioned girl's chorus in high school. So I have no cause to complain about the system or culture. Sometimes I am a little sad, not having raised a son, but I hire a lot of 18-20 year old males and it's fun to work with and teach them.
I heard what you said, HCW and I understand. Nonetheless, I made a committment to actively raise my girl and I think I did a pretty good job. From your earlier posts, you must have done a pretty good job raising your kids as well.
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houseisarockin
Thank you for your story ps, and welcome to you.
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excathedra
ditto on the thanks, ps
howard, that is SO COOL about your brother and sister in law !!!!!!!!
and
;)--> 
;)--> you must move to the new york area where i can properly undershepherd you..... ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
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excathedra
jim, i have one son. i know exactly what you mean.... thanks
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ps
You know I read the first 15 pages of this thread and then had to wait to get in to add my two cents and in the process you all just kept on talking and added another 15+ pages for me to read and when I finally realized I could post I just blurted it all out with out looking at what all you all talked about...
Sorry, I am sure all of that was unnecessary to tell you but anyway, I just saw the photos…OH MY what a treasure to see my Rochelle again. What were the rest of their names. Jim _____ is in front of Rochelle, right? The girl to your right ALWAYS had that million-dollar smile. To her right looks like Al Chase but I think he had already dropped. Is it Paul Goldberg (who in the 11th WC thread I miss stated his man as Al)? Is that Jim (I can’t remember his last name, good friends with Darrell Hampton and he dated Kathleen _______ she had lots of money and from CA I am pretty sure). I guess some of these might have been 13th WC but they all look like 11th to me.
Thank you so much for these pictures.
The 11th WC really loved each other and I know we had nothing else to compare it to maybe all the Corps were as close as us I hope so. We were a tenacious and VERY funny group. I always felt like a part of me left the Corps when anyone was “released” from the WC. We worked hard and VERY efficiently with so much laughter. I loved it.
Enough gushing.
Thank you for the photos Howard.
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A la prochaine
PS,
Thank you for your beautiful post. You gave to me a picture of Rochelle I hadn't gotten yet.
You really made her human for me somehow.
Now, you mentioned that she did spend a considerable amount of time on the coach with vp.
I would think if he was such a MOG he could have certainly helped her with her inner anguish. Obviously, it didn't seem to work. I guess we will never really know what did go on behind those closed doors.
So sad.
My heart does go out to you and all of Rochelle's friends. What a loss.
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Danny
Its very nice that yall are great parents. Guess what it doesn't mean sheet. Your kids have their own brains and will be their own persons regaurdless of what you did. I have a older daughter who is wonderful does every thing right. I have a son that is a drug addict and has been in jail a few times and i'm the same parent.
Cowgirl of course its my fault i work and my kids suffered for it. They had shoes and a roof over there head and food to eat. The more needy child even went to a top private school that cost more that college. See its all my fault.
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Danny
Cowgirl
Don't ask a good question after all you will be missunderstood and blamed.
And what ever you do don't blame the driver cause it was the wicked old wind. And what ever you do don't blame the truck or TWI.
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HCW
Cowgirl;
I'm not judging anybody.
If you insist on putting it in terms of right & wrong, I'd have to say, "You're wrong."
I'm not "coming across" as though fathers who work to support their families are wrong. How CRAZY is that?
Are YOU a single parent? I am. Condemn them TOO!??? I'm not condemning ANYbody.
You certainly are misunderstanding what I said. I'm not pointing fingers at anybody. I didn't say jack about anybody who should do it "my way." Evidently you think I said "my way" is to say at home & "slog around on unemployment compensation."
I didn't say I AM slogging around. I said I WAS at the time I was referring to. I said absolutely NOTHING about anyone making a decision to work outside their home.
I'm not gonna defend things I didn't say. I didn't say squat about "my" way. I don't even have a "my way."
I will say: Jim. You're precisely the kind of Dad I'm talking about. I'm not, nor would I ever question your decisions in your life. Nor am I "complaining" about the system or our culture.
You "made a committment to actively raise (your) girl" CONGRATULATIONS on her accomplishments. I know how you must feel. My 18yr old daughter has a list of accomplishments herself. I'll tell you something my older brother recently told me... your daughters accomplishments reflect positively on you.
It is obvious that you are not part of the statistical norm.
Did YOU
:)--> have to buy any new shirts? Buttons poppin' off & all? I wear a lot of sweaters. 
;)-->
In closing cowgirl. I aint mad at you girl!
I was talking about what "Our society assumes..." As Jim pointed out AND illustrated, It doesn't HAVE to be that way. I wasn't saying I think Fathers shouldn't work. That's rediculous.
Nonetheless society STILL believes it IS not only OK but the preferred "way" that the father chase "success" at the expense of his children. SOCIETY believes that the "car" or whatever trapping a $90+ THOUSand DOOLLars job can provide joy that would replace the loss of DAD's PRESENCE for the EXTRA hours Dad would have to be GONE to earn the $90k.
Jim said he "turned down $90k/year jobs to have time for my family. I commuted on a motorcycle and worked close to home so I could get home" ... because the job would keep him away.
I've been a highly paid slave for some of the largest companies in the world. I wasn't getting at "to work or not to work" that was NOT the question.
Point blank. I believe that more fathers should be like Jim and make a conscious decision to "be there" for their children.
I've worked with and seen globetrotting executives. The work generally consumes them and permeates their life. As a general rule a job will "require" 10 hrs/wk for every $10K/yr you make.
I believe that the biggest word missing from our society today is ENOUGH. In this context a Father MUST find a way to be there ENOUGH for his children, as well as his chosen profession regardless of what he does.
Do you have a problem with that? Geeze we sure argue enough here on GSpot.
:)--> 
:)--> 
;)--> 
-->
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HCW
Its NOT your fault Danny.
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HCW
You seem to be awfully angry Danny. I certainly didn't say anything that should be connected with your situation that I didn't know anything about. Please do not connect dots that don't apply.
I was no more involved in your life than you, mine.
IF you are struggling with responsibility concerning your son and how much you did or did not work outside your home; please hear THIS.
Having a child with problems, does NOT make you a "bad" parent. It only classifies you as parent of a child who has problems. IF you feel you made mistakes, you can certainly alter your path.
If your parenting didn't "mean sheet" then HOW can YOU be at fault for your son choosing to be his own person that is a drug addict?
Seems to me like the "blame" is coming FROM you TOWARDS you.
Blame IS the problem. A separate problem that connects itself to situations and profits nobody more than a little.
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houseisarockin
Yup, join the group.
;)-->
You fight for your words here if needed. A "need not greed" misunderstood by many that stood in authority while we were in twi.
You're accounts and your life is a most fascinating read. Thank you again.
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Jim
HCW,
Thanks for the kind words. The longer I thought about this subject, the more clear it became that my path might not be an option for some men. If you worked in an advertising related field, which seems likely given your talents, nearly all jobs require a "work on it until it's done" attitude.
I've been lucky most of the time. I was able to pick and choose jobs that were not bleeding edge-work you until you drop types. I've also defied all odds by building a successful business while only working 40-45 hours a week I give my wife/business partner much of credit for that.
And finally, the success of our kids, and for that matter ourselves, also speaks highly of our parents.
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ps
"Her life's dream was dashed. The 11th Corps, for as much as anyone may (with good reason)hate TWI or the WC, was a special group of people. We bonded and became a "family," which Rochelle really longed for. Our Way Productions bands were really decent, TWI produced an album by "Called Out" titled "We're in This Thing Together" from a song of the same name that became our theme song for our Corps.
It was so very important to Rochelle to graduate with us. I'm sure JAL was just as callous w/her in telling, not asking, not accepting or considering her feedback about her leaving the Corps, as he was with me. Devastating."
You captured Rochelle perfectly in that assessment of her. She was very strong, self-sufficient, determined to do it all right, to make people proud of her (especially her brother). She was hard on herself. She had a very hard time forgiving herself. She could forgive others of the world but had trouble doing that for herself.
It has been mentioned about Rochelle never being the same after the accident. A year after Rochelle’s death, my first year as a “Corps Grad” I was in the Detroit area (still am) and I had witnessed to some neighbors of mine (a husband and wife and the one of the brother’s of the husband). The husband’s other brother had been in a bad motorcycle accident and had severe head trauma and was never the same after the accident. A horrible dark cloud was over his life. They always told me that I needed to talk to him too. I kept just missing him though. One night after Twig I drove by their house and saw his motorcycle there and I thought, “I should go over there.” Instead I stayed at one of the other neighbor’s houses that had gone to twig with me that night. When I went home the brother’s motorcycle was gone. The next morning I got the call that he had committed suicide after leaving their place that night. He had left and went to a park and blew his brains out. We were all so devastated. They asked me to do the funeral home service the night before the “funeral”. There was about 100 people at the funeral home. It was an amazing experience. I was so thankful for my Corps Training about doing memorial services. I was also thankful to have already lived through the death of Rochelle and realizing the dead end paths of “IF ONLY I HAD…” and how those endless questions will slowly kill you too if you don’t stop it and just except it. It also was established to me the agony Rochelle lived with and how almost impossible it was for her to control her mind that was in severe pain constantly.
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Microbe
All I can say is WOW! About 10 days later, 36 pages, over 700 posts and nearly 17500 views on this thread alone. What if only 10% of those views were single readers, like me, what's the word? Trolls? Moles? Microbes? No, that's not it. But, whatever ... checking in from time to time to catch up, rarely (if ever) posting. That's over 1700 folks who still care to know about "the rest of the story" about TWI.
Guess you hit a nerve HCW.
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