Satori, Are you saying that you do not know what a "bums rush" is? Or are you asking why it is that HCW feels that he is receiving the "bums rush" by some here?
Why he feels he is getting it, I do not know. but a "bums rush" is an old saying where a bum in a bar or a restaurant is rushed out the door when it is discovered that he or she is "bumming", hence; "He got the bums rush", and was kicked out...
Maybe HCW is saying that he was "being rushed" (which would not really qualify as a "bums rush") to tell his story, as when George Aar told him to hurry on up and just tell the incident without all of the flowery introduction..
It is my opinion though, that HCW is entitled to tell his story as he chooses. His opinions within his story may be up for debate, but, it's his story, so, I have just been sitting back and watching it develop. I always did wonder about that accident, and so, this has been interesting....
When I speak authoritatively, it's because I was there. My opinion is based on at least as much first hand experience as oldies, for instance. And more, apparently, when it comes to dealing with people broken to bits by Wierwille and other 'gifted" Way leaders.
Now based on my experience I have formed some opinions,. This is a place to express those opinions. Just like anybody does. Fire away.
But there never was any baby in that nasty bathwater...
And if I might add, when determining the "goodness" of TWI, it can't be two ways.
Either it was a B.S. organization or it wasn't. One's perception of it, or how any particular person made out in their ministry years doesn't determine that. It's the foundation, it's the raison d'etre, and how it routinely treated the majority of it's people that does. And in WayWorld's case, I think it's lacking on all counts.
To make an analogy (that some will probably find offensive in itself) the Nazis were pretty popular in pre-war Germany. If Hitler had died prior to "Krystalnaucht", he would probably still be rated as at least one of Germany's greatest Chancellors ever. He brought new pride and industry to a devastated country. It must have been a wonderful movement then before it all went wrong, wasn't it? I think not. I think it was a warped and demented philosophy right from it's inception. No matter that the genocide hadn't been committed yet. It's foundation was horribly flawed.
Likewise with Wierwille and his "ministry". It didn't become evil and get off track with Craig's ascension to the throne. It was whacked all along. It was designed as a cult of personality where Wierwille got his first and everybody else could wait in line (despite his numerous teachings to the contrary, that's how it worked out in real life).
And so when you come along and claim that there was a lot of good that still came about by TWI, you nullify the experiences of those who got ....ed on. Your ox didn't get gored, so, by God, there musta been something worthwhile there.
I don't buy it. The fact that you heard some teachings that made you feel good, or learned the books of the Bible or some supposed "principle" that you think helped you through life is wholely immaterial if others (I would maintain - a majority) were used and abused and discarded as a matter of course.
Just look at how this accident occurred. There's not an organization I know of that would allow participants in it's curriculum to be subject to the needless danger and lack of trained personnel that seemed to be prevalent there. Yet the BOT isn't responsible for any of it? Unbelievable...
See, George, this is the part that I don't get: "And so when you come along and claim that there was a lot of good that still came about by TWI, you nullify the experiences of those who got ....ed on."
Really? Why would that be? I had two really bad experiences in TWI that I would put in the category of trauma, or at least some sort of psychological distress, and I don't feel "nullified" in the least when an oldiesman (or whomever) comes along and tells their tales of deliverance. They got healed? Great. Good for them. It doesn't change my experience. It just gives me another lens to look through. Sometimes, when the poster who is recounting his "healing" isn't too obnoxious about it, it even reminds me that there were a few times that I got "healed", too.
Now I know what it means, I still don't know how it really applies to HCW's experience here.
--
Here are some things that occurred to me reading your post, and George's.
There were lots of good times at TWI. Friendships, adventures, great memories, some "learning," for better or worse. And there was the bad.
For some, the "baby" was the experience of living through TWI's experience for a time. We may wish to turn our backs on that part of our lives, but it's better that we embrace and understand what happened - denying neither the good, nor the bad.
For others, the "baby" is the ministry itself, the corrupt source of it all, the twisted teachings, the flawed leadership, the bureaucracy and social caste system, and Vic Wierwille who was always corrupt, along with his henchpeople who either were or became bad to join the (evil) enterprise. Some may not have clearly seen the corruption, flaws, etc., which is why they want to "save the baby" so badly.
Either perspective is accessible to everyone, though we often fail to define them, or to recognize them, in context. This causes some unnecessary confusion, I think.
oldiesman loved the experience, so much so, he forgives the enterprise. He reminds me of the assassin in the DaVinci code. It's as if the ministry gave his life virtually all of its meaning. TWI = his redemption. Where else can he go?
Others believe the corrupted root eventually corrupted the fruit, and differentiate between the quality of their initial experience and the integrity of the enterprise. Those found the experience worthwhile enough to stay until they were harmed by the enterprise, which changed their experience from good to bad.
When the experience went sour, some discovered the evil nature of Wierwille's enterprise. This sometimes tainted everything that came before it, depending upon the individual. Others blamed themselves, often because they were blamed by others, or they remain confused.
I noticed if you don't go with the flow here on GS you better be ready for a fight.
In my opinion, if the organization is rotten at it's root the tree is dead.
Even in abusive marriages the abused will speek of the good in the abuser, and seek to protect them.
I'm thankful that not every woman or child was raped or destroyed. Not every man's wife was used as he sat hopeless and confused, broken because the mog wanted what was his. But the good could never outweight the evil that was clothed and packaged as God's will.
We can all disagree in our opinions and experiences , every man woman and child will carry varying degrees of damage to thier minds, bodies and hearts.
But because I didn't see something doesn't make it a lie, because I wasn't raped there was no rape? There is alot of intimidation on this site that scare some of the non-poster from telling thier stories.
Please give people room to express what really happened to them, without fear of more abuse and condemnation.
Some may say the way was good but I know it was a rotten organization that was self serving.
Too many lives were destroyed so a few could take whatever they wanted.
I say if they didn't .... on you, thank God.
But don't tell me that I din't get ....ed on.
When hundreds of witness stand up and tell the same basic story, at some point it become fact.
Respect my bad experiences as I will your good. I think there is room for both on this site.
There was the experience, ahhh the enterprise, Wierwille's EVIL (I want ONE MILlion DOOOLLARs, heh, heh, heh :P--> ) starship enterprise. (Beam me UP Scotty! - - You Do know "Scotty" right?)
Such wisdom, such lofty insight... ALL this from a guy who gets offended when presented with the very idea of reading the Bible.
AND, the greatly exaulted wise one, so wise is he that he says his wisdom is not wide enough, no, not so high as to be able to fathom what a "bum-rush" is.
That baby picture post was disgusting sintori. Whatever respect I was building for you is now history.
What happened to Rochelle is posted on this thread. You're so smart, find it.... Here's an idea, READ the THREAD. (Oh boy, NOW I guess you WON'T find what happened to Rochelle, nor will your read it because I clubbed you over the head with the idea "Way Love" style. You give up your power so easily....
Sorry to rob you of the answers you seek, --> couldn't help myself. Its that pesky "Borg Collective," group mind thing raising its ugly head - - AGAIN. Dammit. I can't go beyond what "Dr. Evil" taught me... habits you know.
Your ignorant question
quote:Okay, so what happened with Rochelle?
stands as evidence you don't care enough to have even read the thread.
All you apparently want to do is LEAD the bum-rush. BTW; the cult you joined? You didn't join a cult, you are obviously trying to be the cult LEADer.
quote: By the way, it's s.a.t.o.r.i, not santori. I'm wondering if you haven't been getting email or private messages from a few weak-minded individuals attempting to "help" you understand my POV.
My, how "Martindalesque" of you. Didn't you mean weak-minded GREASESPOTS??? I guess that wasn't an insult either... Regardless, what it DOES do is expose your hypocracy and your not so subtle desire to attack and subtly solicit other bums to your attack cult, while you desire to exault your own throne....
You illustrate Romans 2:1
quote:HCM ,
Please explain why this is not a "package statement."
Its NOT HC-M, its HC W "bucko." You can call me HC since your attention span doesn't seem to go past two letters.
BTW. I caught your "baby" reference. Notice its gone?
How can you say you are "pro all ex-TWI'ers" and then desecrate the MEMORY of one who DIED; by posting that hideously disgusting image here, on a thread DEDICATED to her?
_____________________________
"Help" to understand your POV? I don't need no stinking "HELP" to UNDERSTAND (his ways are to high for me!) your P.O.V. You are the poster boy for what I was talking about. Your lust to express YOUr POV has blinded you to the fact that that picture of the baby you posted ALSO disrepects the CHILD in the picture.
You didn't care, as long as the picture served YOUR purpose. Hey! Isn't that what you say TWI "leadership" did? Does? Always WILL do???
I see you quite clearly and your POV stinks.
quote:...we need find and accept our responsibility. The driver is responsible, at fault.
OK. Ok, why then didn't you say the 10th Corps GIRL RAPE VICTIM was "responsible, at fault" for her rape? She didn't get out of the truck and go with her partner equally as much as her partner left her in the truck when he went. Right?
Isn't the rapist in HER story playing a similar role as the WIND in mine & Kevin's?
The trucker raped her, the wind "raped" the trailer." Why don't you "not" point any fingers" at her in the same way you DIDN'T "point the finger" at KEVIN? Huh?
Kevin was just a WC guy too, same as she was WC girl. Kevin was doing what he was told by the "Dr. Evil enterprise," same as she. You bum-rush Kevin but simply say of her, "No, a truck driver did it, kidnapping his female passenger...."
I echo what I said of Kevin, applying it to her. It wasn't HER fault. I'm sure you AGREE w/ me on that, but you call ME inconsistent.
What happened to Rochelle? She had her grave and memory stomped on by YOU and the likes of you.
Yes. I WILL speak for MY dear friend Rochelle, God DAMN the fact that she can't speak for herself. Were she alive she would surely say,
"Get OFF my thread. You have no RIGHT to even mention the name Rochelle."
Cult-like behavior is tough to conquer. I don't care if its a religious cult, an anti-religious cult, a political cult, or whatever. Some folks like the taste of kool-aide. There's little or nothing that can be done for them other than to shine the light of factual information enough in the hopes that some of it gets beyond the rose-colored glasses. Hopefully the person will, at some point, see that the object of the cult adoration (or excoriation) is not as perfect (perfectly good or perfectly bad) as originally believed.
Howard, I asked you a question a few pages ago that I think got buried in the noise:
quote:I think that you're assessment, "I don't blame Kevin. I blame the devil," is pretty accurate. But at what point did the devil have his input: in the essence of the Way Corps program with its learning objectives? in the essence of the the LEAD program with its objectives? For the condition of the road and/ or the weather conditions? Or a (possible) lack of concentration on driving in a dangerous situation?
I am sincerely interested in your assessment of the situation and answer to the above. If you want to read the post, it can be found here. This is not an attack, it is just a genuine question.
Howard, I've learned this site can become a majority think in regards to twi. But then again if anyone enters these doors I assumed they read some of Pawtucket's "Main Page" works. So they'd be rather silly to enter thinking we cheerlead for that group.
I've not experienced some of the things here spoken, and have experienced some of the things in ways you'd rather not know of. I've been told accounts by people I trust that in of itself I would hesitate in thought regarding. Then I would fit together the many other accounts I've heard that sound like a room full of people all telling the same account just from the point of the north end of the room to the south.
I've never stated I threw it all out. How can you throw out God? That puts me in total contrast to a different poster here who saw nada as obtained. Do I get in his face and say you lie man, you just frigging lied to me. No I don't, or certainly hope someone nails my foot if I do. But I would tell someone that said they held no responsibility at all in any situation that they do err in their thinking. The level of delivery of that depends upon the thickness of their skull.
Stay around! And if you haven't yet you can have a clue in how important this thread is by looking at the number of "Views."
HCW told his story HIS WAY, like you tell yours your way. I for one enjoyed his unique means of relating the experience.
The story itself was broken up by those who wanted only to pick it apart for their own purposes.
HCW, your last post was spot on.
Satori, your @$$ is the one showing. You over calculated your own intelligence and exposed the ugliest part of your motivation. Deleting the image doesn't change that.
Big fish in little ponds don't survive well outside their element.
I appreciate the respect shown by wanting the story to be told uninterrupted, but honestly...
I "knew the job was dangerous when I took it" (catch THAT reference soul mates )
In other words, I knew to forum concept, the lay of the land, so to speak, and am quickly gaining insight to the specific nature of GS. Thanks again for any & all Help in that regard. I really don't mind the detours, especially when it seems that there is some sincerity down the rabbit trails.
We can always jump back on track. If I or anyone desires the story in one piece, I or they can put forth the effort necessary to edit out the stuff they don't want.
I did feel it necessary to bum-rush as I did in my prior post. I hope my reasoning was obvious, as it was to Catcup. (Thanks honey, validation feels good and it helps.)
I'm not gonna be run off. "I aint afraid a no ghosts." I feel I MUST submit to the nature of the beast if I'm gonna throw in my two cents, I MUST be willing to accept anyone throwing theirs. I really don't mind derailing and answering questions (on topic or related ones would be best, I think).
But don't people see that the "majority think" they subscribe to here is just as cultlike as the "group think" they denouce aobut TWI?
....Just as dangerous? AT LEAST as dangerous as the handling of "the evaluation" sheet? The result of the majority think can lead to the same result - - a CRASH that injures many? I don't get why people who claim to be soo passionately against cult like behavior fall so easily back into the same behavior.
Why don't they see that?
"You can change the label of the jab , but it don't change the PICK-les on the inside."
Oh yeah man. Thanks for pointing it out, I DO see how important this thread is. I'm amazed it's still going. I give credenc to its importance by the amount of time I've put into it the past few days.
I trust you realize that Kevin, as far as I know never once shirked any responsibility for his part in the crash. I was told it haunted him for years.
I posted MY opinion, which is, as directly as I can put it,
I NEVER HAVE SPENT AN INSTANT BLAMING KEVIN. Nor will I EVER. It MAY be, and its becoming increasingly evident to me, that "you had to be there" to understand that thinking.
Like a joke, perfect for that one moment in time when it was a truly gut splitting experience, loses its effect when even the best deliverer relates it to someone else. I'm thinking "you had to BE there" or have "been there" in other "there's" in your own life to "Gnosko" understand that concept. (???)
I'm also thinking it falls into the category of God's wisdom being "foolishness" to man's wisdom.
As much as I may deny it, or understand the contrary, and appreciate your continued efforts to nurture me beyond it.... I have to admit that at least on some level, maybe even only a little bit; I DO feel responsible, myself, not only for the crash, but for my friend's death too.
How rediculous is it for ME to feel in any way responsible for Rochelle's death? I wasn't there with her. I couldn't do my part to protect her, minister to her, or help her pull her mind back. They intentionally kept me away from her the same as they locked "the spiritually weak, injured LEAD 104 folks away at the Indiana Campus.
They sent them there to heal. They kept them away from the people there while "in the other room" they taught, "The touch of a faithful ambassador is health." Crap like that makes it SOOOOO easy for "those" to say there never was, is not now, nor ever will be ANYTHING good about TWI.
How can we BLAME them for their opinions? We can't. I certainly can't and DON'T.
Anyways Vickles; it has been a long and sometimes continuous fight for me to shake my feelings of responsibility. It DID tear away at the edges of my sanity. I learned that day that few things feel worse than seeing people you care about hurting and helpless.
It is as if it is the exact opposite of,
"Beloved I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health."
Like, "It hurts me more than all things when I see you suffering and unhealthy."
I really opened up and let it all hang out here in this thread. I'm not surprised too much that you percieved little cracks where that personal responsibility for this thing seeped outta me.
Trust me though, I have it well contained and surrounded by God's word in my life - - which is the ONLY true and COMPLETE healer.
Like this; "you have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this thing might be put away from among you..."
I'd rather mourn. It hit me the other day when I was in my 7yr old son's face... "DING!"
The reason God placed the ability for us to feel bad is so that the bad feelings, cause us to deter our path, derail us, if you will :)--> from going back to the thing or behavior that hurt us.
Its SOO simple and was there all the time. As the father of five children I've gone through the "don't touch that, it's hot" scenario five time with five different baby personalities. Sean (now 7), my "hardheaded one." He HAD to touch it anyway, no matter how much I, his mom, or the two older siblings warned him. After pulling his hand away, moving the hot thing out of his reach, doing "everything"...even letting him feel the heat from a safe distance....
It wasn't until, I heard "Ooooowwwww !!!!" that he stopped reaching for it.
So Vickles; I don't feel bad about fellin' bad. its not gonna kill me, it motivates me.
I liked the picture of "Baby Vic," and especially my caption, and I only removed it because I realized it would be too much of a distraction. (It was a baby, flipping the bird. The caption read, "I wish you could read this in the original." - Baby Vic) Bad me. It was in reply to Evan's remark about the baby and the bathwater.
HCW, your initial topic was dedicated to Rochelle's memory. You were doing a great job, despite evidence it had become more about you than Rochelle. That's okay, false pretenses aside, because you've been through the mill and you have an important story to tell, but it does begin to take a toll on your credibility.
You must have known, posting here, that your account would be seen in the context of TWI's endemic corruption. Yet you reacted somewhat defensively, even describing Greasespot as a kind of anti-cult. That's nothing new. It's been discussed, debated, joked about openly. But there's the difference. The open-ness. Dissent is what drives many of these discussions. Greasespot isn't a cult, HC. What you call "majority-think" is simple agreement, where the facts and common experience bear out the truth. Even with all the TWI believing you can muster, renewing your mind won't change facts about that pathetic, little cult.
An aside - by their own comments, Catcup and her husband have never been truly "whole" since they were livin' the doulos dream as pampered (Way-style) ministry lap dogs. Things deteriorated, and they were expelled from their Way World Paradise (HQ), but they still wish they'd be invited back, last I read, so the "validation" shouldn't mean much, other than you probably remind her of Corps from the golden days of yore. You remind me of Corps too, but it's not a compliment, coming from me. (The best of the Corps, and there were a lot of great people, never remind me of "Corps." Ironic, no?)
Another aside - Sorry to call you HCM - I noticed George wrote that but I didn't see I had posted it too. Could have been a subconscious slip. HCM - LCM, or just habit. Not intentional though, for what it's worth.
Another aside - Did you call Catcup "honey?" You are a livin' TWI time-capsule. And that "pickles on the inside" reference, too. Deja voodoo, fer sher.
Now this was a real trip, and why I feel I need to respond rather than let the thread just continue.
quote: What happened to Rochelle? She had her grave and memory stomped on by YOU and the likes of you.
Yes. I WILL speak for MY dear friend Rochelle, God DAMN the fact that she can't speak for herself. Were she alive she would surely say,
"Get OFF my thread. You have no RIGHT to even mention the name Rochelle."
Where did you get this from? First of all, "had her grave and memory stomped..." Huh? This kind of garbage really brings me back. Explain yourself. What are you talking about? I haven't dishonored Rochelle in any way, so explain it.
Frankly, I don't have the ability to channel Rochelle's ghost, as you do, but I can wonder how she might view the sugar-coating of TWI's part in all of this.
Finally, a lot of what you seem to be reading into my posts makes no sense. To echo your own question, HCW, do you read?
quote: I think that you're assessment, "I don't blame Kevin. I blame the devil," is pretty accurate. But at what point did the devil have his input: in the essence of the Way Corps program with its learning objectives? in the essence of the the LEAD program with its objectives? For the condition of the road and/ or the weather conditions? Or a (possible) lack of concentration on driving in a dangerous situation?
This is so complex. I keep bouncing back & forth between all of the above and maybe, just the wind. When I settle on "just the wind." I feel like naww its more than that, definitely, more than just that.
There is some more of the rest of the story that I wasn't planning on writing about because it wasn't the accident, but part of the LEAD session prior to it. I was thinking, "Nobody wants to hear me ramble on with platitudes about this , that & the other thing leading up to the accident."
Now I'm thinking I'm not gonna write about the whole session but there were a couple of things that I've wondered if they were specifically related to the accident, because they shaped decsions that drove other decisions....
Plus its kinda hard to answer your question with going into it at least a little.
Don't have a lot of time now, maybe later...
For now. I don't believe that harsh trustee mandates or irresponsible policies, or lack of caring about people at the leadership level had much if anything to do with the accident. The LEAD staff was all over us about safaty concerns. We were like "Yeah right."
We even got in trouble one day on a climb because we didn't stay in this cave like we were told. Rochelle was on the climb and started a rockslide by throwing a big rock down that came loose while she was going up.
All things considered, it seems to me like everthing funneled down to a couple of decisions that I feel were isolated to what was happening out there in New Mexico that day.
The reason I say that is that "all of the above" in terms of bad TWI issues were in existence, alive & well that day. They DID have a bus available that could transport all of the people. They could have just as easily followed behind the bus with the luggage as the 2nd truck followed our truck that wrecked. Had they decided to do so.
I think the decision to take the truck was more germain to the accident than the decision to do my evaluation on the road. They decided to take the trucks because it would give Kevin & I some privacy to talk about the evaluation.
We had to do the evaluation on the road because I got sick and almost died of hypothermia the night before. We were gonna do the evaluation the night before we left because we decided to "wait til tomorrow" since it was getting late after Kevin finished with the extra time on the other evaluation. We did talk a little about my eval during the duo but decided to do it later when we both were fresher because Kevin had some "stuff to talk to me about."
I think some of the "stuff" was related to that we had to turn around and come right back down from our hike up Mt. Sunset. We had to turn around because I got sick and extremely weak on the hike up. Donnie decided that they had to get me out of the 9000ft altitude immediately because I might not have survived the cold of the night. Symptoms of hypothermia were at their onset. That day was an adventure.
Those decisions, I feel, were local to us, having "nothing" to do w/ the ministry as a whole.
"An aside - by their own comments, Catcup and her husband have never been truly "whole" since they were livin' the doulos dream as pampered (Way-style) ministry lap dogs. Things deteriorated, and they were expelled from their Way World Paradise (HQ)"
Tsk, tsk, tsk.
"Livin' the doulos dream as pampered ministry lap dogs?"
"Expelled from their Way World Paradise (HQ)?"
Dearest and Wisest Satori, you are so sadly mistaken, and this is even more evidence that you have no earthly idea who I am, who my husband is, our involvement in TWI, and you don't read quite as well as you think.
I believe in another thread-- the one on Forgiveness, you even called us "long-time staffers"
You are sadly, sadly mistaken. And anyone who HAS been a long time HQ staffer can tell you that.
The only time my husband and I spent as full time staff at The Way International Headquarters was ONE YEAR. And we lived in a farmhouse in Botkins we rented out of the profits of our own business, TAKING A CUT IN PAY TO DO SO.
And, uh, oh, yeah, we spent another four whole months as staff on the field in the fall of 1995, TAKING ANOTHER PAY CUT TO WORK FOR THE MINISTRY.
We have NEVER lived in ministry owned accommodations at any time other than in-residence.
(Oh, yeah, hoo-boy, those dorms were reeeeaallly cushy, weren't they, cooped up in a closet sized room with a gang of other people and eating freezer-burned mystery meat!)
Also-- we were NEVER EVER "expelled" from The Way International Headquarters.
On the contrary, my husband and I LEFT headquarters after one year on staff in 1983 after confronting people AT THE TRUSTEE LEVEL about abuses I discovered while on staff.
Though Walter Cummins begged us to stay, and I was offered another job in a different department if we would stay on, Geek and I decided that to remain on staff under the current situation was NOT of God, we TOLD them so, and LEFT.
And any "pampering" that has gone on in our lives is as a direct result of the work of our own hands, in my husband's own businesses, which netted us far more than any ministry paycheck ever did.
When I left the ministry, I LEFT OF MY OWN ACCORD. As a matter of fact, when I walked out of the meeting and told my daughter we would never go back, she was upset and called the Wallaces, who asked for a meeting with our family.
That TWI marked and avoided us for not putting up with their bull$hit doesn't take a whit away from the fact that I LEFT THEM.
Satori, you really do need to get your facts straight before you post. You'd be much more credible.
I believe I asked this question earlier. But I was curious...
quote: They DID have a bus available that could transport all of the people. They could have just as easily followed behind the bus with the luggage as the 2nd truck followed our truck that wrecked. Had they decided to do so.
Is it legal in the state of New Mexico to transport people in the back of a pick-up truck?
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HCW
As far as standing up, talking back. People did that a lot, especially after POP. People got "mad as hell, and we're not gonna take it anymore!" Of my personal pet peeves was the whole money thing. T
HAPe4me
I never participated in it, but I always thought it sounded like "Outward Bound", which has been measurably more successful in achieving it's participant's goals.
So_crates
Yes, but then there's the counter teaching: If you obey the MOG, God will bless you. So what do you do when the MOG orders you to act recklessly? Rhetorical question. SoCrates
J0nny Ling0
Satori, Are you saying that you do not know what a "bums rush" is? Or are you asking why it is that HCW feels that he is receiving the "bums rush" by some here?
Why he feels he is getting it, I do not know. but a "bums rush" is an old saying where a bum in a bar or a restaurant is rushed out the door when it is discovered that he or she is "bumming", hence; "He got the bums rush", and was kicked out...
Maybe HCW is saying that he was "being rushed" (which would not really qualify as a "bums rush") to tell his story, as when George Aar told him to hurry on up and just tell the incident without all of the flowery introduction..
It is my opinion though, that HCW is entitled to tell his story as he chooses. His opinions within his story may be up for debate, but, it's his story, so, I have just been sitting back and watching it develop. I always did wonder about that accident, and so, this has been interesting....
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TheEvan
When I speak authoritatively, it's because I was there. My opinion is based on at least as much first hand experience as oldies, for instance. And more, apparently, when it comes to dealing with people broken to bits by Wierwille and other 'gifted" Way leaders.
Now based on my experience I have formed some opinions,. This is a place to express those opinions. Just like anybody does. Fire away.
But there never was any baby in that nasty bathwater...
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satori001
Okay, so what happened with Rochelle?
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George Aar
And if I might add, when determining the "goodness" of TWI, it can't be two ways.
Either it was a B.S. organization or it wasn't. One's perception of it, or how any particular person made out in their ministry years doesn't determine that. It's the foundation, it's the raison d'etre, and how it routinely treated the majority of it's people that does. And in WayWorld's case, I think it's lacking on all counts.
To make an analogy (that some will probably find offensive in itself) the Nazis were pretty popular in pre-war Germany. If Hitler had died prior to "Krystalnaucht", he would probably still be rated as at least one of Germany's greatest Chancellors ever. He brought new pride and industry to a devastated country. It must have been a wonderful movement then before it all went wrong, wasn't it? I think not. I think it was a warped and demented philosophy right from it's inception. No matter that the genocide hadn't been committed yet. It's foundation was horribly flawed.
Likewise with Wierwille and his "ministry". It didn't become evil and get off track with Craig's ascension to the throne. It was whacked all along. It was designed as a cult of personality where Wierwille got his first and everybody else could wait in line (despite his numerous teachings to the contrary, that's how it worked out in real life).
And so when you come along and claim that there was a lot of good that still came about by TWI, you nullify the experiences of those who got ....ed on. Your ox didn't get gored, so, by God, there musta been something worthwhile there.
I don't buy it. The fact that you heard some teachings that made you feel good, or learned the books of the Bible or some supposed "principle" that you think helped you through life is wholely immaterial if others (I would maintain - a majority) were used and abused and discarded as a matter of course.
Just look at how this accident occurred. There's not an organization I know of that would allow participants in it's curriculum to be subject to the needless danger and lack of trained personnel that seemed to be prevalent there. Yet the BOT isn't responsible for any of it? Unbelievable...
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Jim
Well said George.
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laleo
See, George, this is the part that I don't get: "And so when you come along and claim that there was a lot of good that still came about by TWI, you nullify the experiences of those who got ....ed on."
Really? Why would that be? I had two really bad experiences in TWI that I would put in the category of trauma, or at least some sort of psychological distress, and I don't feel "nullified" in the least when an oldiesman (or whomever) comes along and tells their tales of deliverance. They got healed? Great. Good for them. It doesn't change my experience. It just gives me another lens to look through. Sometimes, when the poster who is recounting his "healing" isn't too obnoxious about it, it even reminds me that there were a few times that I got "healed", too.
Honestly, do you feel "nullified"?
s.a.t.o.r.i,: This is a "bum's rush".
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igotout
Hey Catcup. I'll be seeing your hubby this month I think. Hope to see you next summer again. You guys are awesome!
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HCW
This thread is not about determining the goodness of twi. someone respectfully asked you to go argue on another thread.
Even started the thread for you.
You're an a$$ for disrespecting the fact that this thread was dedicated to the lost LIFE of a victim....
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satori001
T.h.a.n.k.s. l.a.l.e.o... (also to JL).
Now I know what it means, I still don't know how it really applies to HCW's experience here.
--
Here are some things that occurred to me reading your post, and George's.
There were lots of good times at TWI. Friendships, adventures, great memories, some "learning," for better or worse. And there was the bad.
For some, the "baby" was the experience of living through TWI's experience for a time. We may wish to turn our backs on that part of our lives, but it's better that we embrace and understand what happened - denying neither the good, nor the bad.
For others, the "baby" is the ministry itself, the corrupt source of it all, the twisted teachings, the flawed leadership, the bureaucracy and social caste system, and Vic Wierwille who was always corrupt, along with his henchpeople who either were or became bad to join the (evil) enterprise. Some may not have clearly seen the corruption, flaws, etc., which is why they want to "save the baby" so badly.
Either perspective is accessible to everyone, though we often fail to define them, or to recognize them, in context. This causes some unnecessary confusion, I think.
oldiesman loved the experience, so much so, he forgives the enterprise. He reminds me of the assassin in the DaVinci code. It's as if the ministry gave his life virtually all of its meaning. TWI = his redemption. Where else can he go?
Others believe the corrupted root eventually corrupted the fruit, and differentiate between the quality of their initial experience and the integrity of the enterprise. Those found the experience worthwhile enough to stay until they were harmed by the enterprise, which changed their experience from good to bad.
When the experience went sour, some discovered the evil nature of Wierwille's enterprise. This sometimes tainted everything that came before it, depending upon the individual. Others blamed themselves, often because they were blamed by others, or they remain confused.
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Grease Spot
I noticed if you don't go with the flow here on GS you better be ready for a fight.
In my opinion, if the organization is rotten at it's root the tree is dead.
Even in abusive marriages the abused will speek of the good in the abuser, and seek to protect them.
I'm thankful that not every woman or child was raped or destroyed. Not every man's wife was used as he sat hopeless and confused, broken because the mog wanted what was his. But the good could never outweight the evil that was clothed and packaged as God's will.
We can all disagree in our opinions and experiences , every man woman and child will carry varying degrees of damage to thier minds, bodies and hearts.
But because I didn't see something doesn't make it a lie, because I wasn't raped there was no rape? There is alot of intimidation on this site that scare some of the non-poster from telling thier stories.
Please give people room to express what really happened to them, without fear of more abuse and condemnation.
Some may say the way was good but I know it was a rotten organization that was self serving.
Too many lives were destroyed so a few could take whatever they wanted.
I say if they didn't .... on you, thank God.
But don't tell me that I din't get ....ed on.
When hundreds of witness stand up and tell the same basic story, at some point it become fact.
Respect my bad experiences as I will your good. I think there is room for both on this site.
Just my opinion
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WordWolf
HCW,
whenever you feel ready to discuss Roch*lle again....
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HCW
...yes sintorinius...
There was the experience, ahhh the enterprise, Wierwille's EVIL (I want ONE MILlion DOOOLLARs, heh, heh, heh
:P--> ) starship enterprise. (Beam me UP Scotty! - - You Do know "Scotty" right?)
Such wisdom, such lofty insight... ALL this from a guy who gets offended when presented with the very idea of reading the Bible.
AND, the greatly exaulted wise one, so wise is he that he says his wisdom is not wide enough, no, not so high as to be able to fathom what a "bum-rush" is.
That baby picture post was disgusting sintori. Whatever respect I was building for you is now history.
What happened to Rochelle is posted on this thread. You're so smart, find it.... Here's an idea, READ the THREAD. (Oh boy, NOW I guess you WON'T find what happened to Rochelle, nor will your read it because I clubbed you over the head with the idea "Way Love" style. You give up your power so easily....
Sorry to rob you of the answers you seek,
--> couldn't help myself. Its that pesky "Borg Collective," group mind thing raising its ugly head - - AGAIN. Dammit. I can't go beyond what "Dr. Evil" taught me... habits you know.
Your ignorant question
stands as evidence you don't care enough to have even read the thread.
All you apparently want to do is LEAD the bum-rush. BTW; the cult you joined? You didn't join a cult, you are obviously trying to be the cult LEADer.
My, how "Martindalesque" of you. Didn't you mean weak-minded GREASESPOTS??? I guess that wasn't an insult either... Regardless, what it DOES do is expose your hypocracy and your not so subtle desire to attack and subtly solicit other bums to your attack cult, while you desire to exault your own throne....
You illustrate Romans 2:1
Its NOT HC-M, its HC W "bucko." You can call me HC since your attention span doesn't seem to go past two letters.
BTW. I caught your "baby" reference. Notice its gone?
How can you say you are "pro all ex-TWI'ers" and then desecrate the MEMORY of one who DIED; by posting that hideously disgusting image here, on a thread DEDICATED to her?
_____________________________
"Help" to understand your POV? I don't need no stinking "HELP" to UNDERSTAND (his ways are to high for me!) your P.O.V. You are the poster boy for what I was talking about. Your lust to express YOUr POV has blinded you to the fact that that picture of the baby you posted ALSO disrepects the CHILD in the picture.
You didn't care, as long as the picture served YOUR purpose. Hey! Isn't that what you say TWI "leadership" did? Does? Always WILL do???
I see you quite clearly and your POV stinks.
OK. Ok, why then didn't you say the 10th Corps GIRL RAPE VICTIM was "responsible, at fault" for her rape? She didn't get out of the truck and go with her partner equally as much as her partner left her in the truck when he went. Right?
Isn't the rapist in HER story playing a similar role as the WIND in mine & Kevin's?
The trucker raped her, the wind "raped" the trailer." Why don't you "not" point any fingers" at her in the same way you DIDN'T "point the finger" at KEVIN? Huh?
Kevin was just a WC guy too, same as she was WC girl. Kevin was doing what he was told by the "Dr. Evil enterprise," same as she. You bum-rush Kevin but simply say of her, "No, a truck driver did it, kidnapping his female passenger...."
I echo what I said of Kevin, applying it to her. It wasn't HER fault. I'm sure you AGREE w/ me on that, but you call ME inconsistent.
What happened to Rochelle? She had her grave and memory stomped on by YOU and the likes of you.
Yes. I WILL speak for MY dear friend Rochelle, God DAMN the fact that she can't speak for herself. Were she alive she would surely say,
"Get OFF my thread. You have no RIGHT to even mention the name Rochelle."
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markomalley
Cult-like behavior is tough to conquer. I don't care if its a religious cult, an anti-religious cult, a political cult, or whatever. Some folks like the taste of kool-aide. There's little or nothing that can be done for them other than to shine the light of factual information enough in the hopes that some of it gets beyond the rose-colored glasses. Hopefully the person will, at some point, see that the object of the cult adoration (or excoriation) is not as perfect (perfectly good or perfectly bad) as originally believed.
Howard, I asked you a question a few pages ago that I think got buried in the noise:
I am sincerely interested in your assessment of the situation and answer to the above. If you want to read the post, it can be found here. This is not an attack, it is just a genuine question.
Thanks.
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excathedra
HCW, maybe if you tell your story on your computer, like in word, each day and then post it here all at once, the flow won't be broken
poor rochelle
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houseisarockin
Howard, I've learned this site can become a majority think in regards to twi. But then again if anyone enters these doors I assumed they read some of Pawtucket's "Main Page" works. So they'd be rather silly to enter thinking we cheerlead for that group.
I've not experienced some of the things here spoken, and have experienced some of the things in ways you'd rather not know of. I've been told accounts by people I trust that in of itself I would hesitate in thought regarding. Then I would fit together the many other accounts I've heard that sound like a room full of people all telling the same account just from the point of the north end of the room to the south.
I've never stated I threw it all out. How can you throw out God? That puts me in total contrast to a different poster here who saw nada as obtained. Do I get in his face and say you lie man, you just frigging lied to me. No I don't, or certainly hope someone nails my foot if I do. But I would tell someone that said they held no responsibility at all in any situation that they do err in their thinking. The level of delivery of that depends upon the thickness of their skull.
Stay around! And if you haven't yet you can have a clue in how important this thread is by looking at the number of "Views."
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Catcup
HCW told his story HIS WAY, like you tell yours your way. I for one enjoyed his unique means of relating the experience.
The story itself was broken up by those who wanted only to pick it apart for their own purposes.
HCW, your last post was spot on.
Satori, your @$$ is the one showing. You over calculated your own intelligence and exposed the ugliest part of your motivation. Deleting the image doesn't change that.
Big fish in little ponds don't survive well outside their element.
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Catcup
"I'm wondering if you haven't been getting email or private messages from a few weak-minded individuals attempting to "help" you understand my POV."
'S'matter, Satori, gettin paranoid now?
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HCW
Thanks again for the kind words.
I appreciate the respect shown by wanting the story to be told uninterrupted, but honestly...
I "knew the job was dangerous when I took it" (catch THAT reference soul mates
)
In other words, I knew to forum concept, the lay of the land, so to speak, and am quickly gaining insight to the specific nature of GS. Thanks again for any & all Help in that regard. I really don't mind the detours, especially when it seems that there is some sincerity down the rabbit trails.
We can always jump back on track. If I or anyone desires the story in one piece, I or they can put forth the effort necessary to edit out the stuff they don't want.
I did feel it necessary to bum-rush as I did in my prior post. I hope my reasoning was obvious, as it was to Catcup. (Thanks honey, validation feels good and it helps.)
I'm not gonna be run off. "I aint afraid a no ghosts." I feel I MUST submit to the nature of the beast if I'm gonna throw in my two cents, I MUST be willing to accept anyone throwing theirs. I really don't mind derailing and answering questions (on topic or related ones would be best, I think).
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HCW
Yeah house. ...
But don't people see that the "majority think" they subscribe to here is just as cultlike as the "group think" they denouce aobut TWI?
....Just as dangerous? AT LEAST as dangerous as the handling of "the evaluation" sheet? The result of the majority think can lead to the same result - - a CRASH that injures many? I don't get why people who claim to be soo passionately against cult like behavior fall so easily back into the same behavior.
Why don't they see that?
"You can change the label of the jab , but it don't change the PICK-les on the inside."
Oh yeah man. Thanks for pointing it out, I DO see how important this thread is. I'm amazed it's still going. I give credenc to its importance by the amount of time I've put into it the past few days.
I trust you realize that Kevin, as far as I know never once shirked any responsibility for his part in the crash. I was told it haunted him for years.
I posted MY opinion, which is, as directly as I can put it,
I NEVER HAVE SPENT AN INSTANT BLAMING KEVIN. Nor will I EVER. It MAY be, and its becoming increasingly evident to me, that "you had to be there" to understand that thinking.
Like a joke, perfect for that one moment in time when it was a truly gut splitting experience, loses its effect when even the best deliverer relates it to someone else. I'm thinking "you had to BE there" or have "been there" in other "there's" in your own life to "Gnosko" understand that concept. (???)
I'm also thinking it falls into the category of God's wisdom being "foolishness" to man's wisdom.
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HCW
Yes Vickles.
As much as I may deny it, or understand the contrary, and appreciate your continued efforts to nurture me beyond it.... I have to admit that at least on some level, maybe even only a little bit; I DO feel responsible, myself, not only for the crash, but for my friend's death too.
How rediculous is it for ME to feel in any way responsible for Rochelle's death? I wasn't there with her. I couldn't do my part to protect her, minister to her, or help her pull her mind back. They intentionally kept me away from her the same as they locked "the spiritually weak, injured LEAD 104 folks away at the Indiana Campus.
They sent them there to heal. They kept them away from the people there while "in the other room" they taught, "The touch of a faithful ambassador is health." Crap like that makes it SOOOOO easy for "those" to say there never was, is not now, nor ever will be ANYTHING good about TWI.
How can we BLAME them for their opinions? We can't. I certainly can't and DON'T.
Anyways Vickles; it has been a long and sometimes continuous fight for me to shake my feelings of responsibility. It DID tear away at the edges of my sanity. I learned that day that few things feel worse than seeing people you care about hurting and helpless.
It is as if it is the exact opposite of,
"Beloved I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health."
Like, "It hurts me more than all things when I see you suffering and unhealthy."
I really opened up and let it all hang out here in this thread. I'm not surprised too much that you percieved little cracks where that personal responsibility for this thing seeped outta me.
Trust me though, I have it well contained and surrounded by God's word in my life - - which is the ONLY true and COMPLETE healer.
Like this; "you have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this thing might be put away from among you..."
I'd rather mourn. It hit me the other day when I was in my 7yr old son's face... "DING!"
The reason God placed the ability for us to feel bad is so that the bad feelings, cause us to deter our path, derail us, if you will
:)--> from going back to the thing or behavior that hurt us.
Its SOO simple and was there all the time. As the father of five children I've gone through the "don't touch that, it's hot" scenario five time with five different baby personalities. Sean (now 7), my "hardheaded one." He HAD to touch it anyway, no matter how much I, his mom, or the two older siblings warned him. After pulling his hand away, moving the hot thing out of his reach, doing "everything"...even letting him feel the heat from a safe distance....
It wasn't until, I heard "Ooooowwwww !!!!" that he stopped reaching for it.
So Vickles; I don't feel bad about fellin' bad. its not gonna kill me, it motivates me.
Thanks for the love anyway, keep it comin baby!
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satori001
I liked the picture of "Baby Vic," and especially my caption, and I only removed it because I realized it would be too much of a distraction. (It was a baby, flipping the bird. The caption read, "I wish you could read this in the original." - Baby Vic) Bad me. It was in reply to Evan's remark about the baby and the bathwater.
HCW, your initial topic was dedicated to Rochelle's memory. You were doing a great job, despite evidence it had become more about you than Rochelle. That's okay, false pretenses aside, because you've been through the mill and you have an important story to tell, but it does begin to take a toll on your credibility.
You must have known, posting here, that your account would be seen in the context of TWI's endemic corruption. Yet you reacted somewhat defensively, even describing Greasespot as a kind of anti-cult. That's nothing new. It's been discussed, debated, joked about openly. But there's the difference. The open-ness. Dissent is what drives many of these discussions. Greasespot isn't a cult, HC. What you call "majority-think" is simple agreement, where the facts and common experience bear out the truth. Even with all the TWI believing you can muster, renewing your mind won't change facts about that pathetic, little cult.
An aside - by their own comments, Catcup and her husband have never been truly "whole" since they were livin' the doulos dream as pampered (Way-style) ministry lap dogs. Things deteriorated, and they were expelled from their Way World Paradise (HQ), but they still wish they'd be invited back, last I read, so the "validation" shouldn't mean much, other than you probably remind her of Corps from the golden days of yore. You remind me of Corps too, but it's not a compliment, coming from me. (The best of the Corps, and there were a lot of great people, never remind me of "Corps." Ironic, no?)
Another aside - Sorry to call you HCM - I noticed George wrote that but I didn't see I had posted it too. Could have been a subconscious slip. HCM - LCM, or just habit. Not intentional though, for what it's worth.
Another aside - Did you call Catcup "honey?" You are a livin' TWI time-capsule. And that "pickles on the inside" reference, too. Deja voodoo, fer sher.
Now this was a real trip, and why I feel I need to respond rather than let the thread just continue.
Where did you get this from? First of all, "had her grave and memory stomped..." Huh? This kind of garbage really brings me back. Explain yourself. What are you talking about? I haven't dishonored Rochelle in any way, so explain it.
Frankly, I don't have the ability to channel Rochelle's ghost, as you do, but I can wonder how she might view the sugar-coating of TWI's part in all of this.
Finally, a lot of what you seem to be reading into my posts makes no sense. To echo your own question, HCW, do you read?
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HCW
Mark,
This is so complex. I keep bouncing back & forth between all of the above and maybe, just the wind. When I settle on "just the wind." I feel like naww its more than that, definitely, more than just that.
There is some more of the rest of the story that I wasn't planning on writing about because it wasn't the accident, but part of the LEAD session prior to it. I was thinking, "Nobody wants to hear me ramble on with platitudes about this , that & the other thing leading up to the accident."
Now I'm thinking I'm not gonna write about the whole session but there were a couple of things that I've wondered if they were specifically related to the accident, because they shaped decsions that drove other decisions....
Plus its kinda hard to answer your question with going into it at least a little.
Don't have a lot of time now, maybe later...
For now. I don't believe that harsh trustee mandates or irresponsible policies, or lack of caring about people at the leadership level had much if anything to do with the accident. The LEAD staff was all over us about safaty concerns. We were like "Yeah right."
We even got in trouble one day on a climb because we didn't stay in this cave like we were told. Rochelle was on the climb and started a rockslide by throwing a big rock down that came loose while she was going up.
All things considered, it seems to me like everthing funneled down to a couple of decisions that I feel were isolated to what was happening out there in New Mexico that day.
The reason I say that is that "all of the above" in terms of bad TWI issues were in existence, alive & well that day. They DID have a bus available that could transport all of the people. They could have just as easily followed behind the bus with the luggage as the 2nd truck followed our truck that wrecked. Had they decided to do so.
I think the decision to take the truck was more germain to the accident than the decision to do my evaluation on the road. They decided to take the trucks because it would give Kevin & I some privacy to talk about the evaluation.
We had to do the evaluation on the road because I got sick and almost died of hypothermia the night before. We were gonna do the evaluation the night before we left because we decided to "wait til tomorrow" since it was getting late after Kevin finished with the extra time on the other evaluation. We did talk a little about my eval during the duo but decided to do it later when we both were fresher because Kevin had some "stuff to talk to me about."
I think some of the "stuff" was related to that we had to turn around and come right back down from our hike up Mt. Sunset. We had to turn around because I got sick and extremely weak on the hike up. Donnie decided that they had to get me out of the 9000ft altitude immediately because I might not have survived the cold of the night. Symptoms of hypothermia were at their onset. That day was an adventure.
Those decisions, I feel, were local to us, having "nothing" to do w/ the ministry as a whole.
Gotta go, tune in later....
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Catcup
"An aside - by their own comments, Catcup and her husband have never been truly "whole" since they were livin' the doulos dream as pampered (Way-style) ministry lap dogs. Things deteriorated, and they were expelled from their Way World Paradise (HQ)"
Tsk, tsk, tsk.
"Livin' the doulos dream as pampered ministry lap dogs?"
"Expelled from their Way World Paradise (HQ)?"
Dearest and Wisest Satori, you are so sadly mistaken, and this is even more evidence that you have no earthly idea who I am, who my husband is, our involvement in TWI, and you don't read quite as well as you think.
I believe in another thread-- the one on Forgiveness, you even called us "long-time staffers"
You are sadly, sadly mistaken. And anyone who HAS been a long time HQ staffer can tell you that.
The only time my husband and I spent as full time staff at The Way International Headquarters was ONE YEAR. And we lived in a farmhouse in Botkins we rented out of the profits of our own business, TAKING A CUT IN PAY TO DO SO.
And, uh, oh, yeah, we spent another four whole months as staff on the field in the fall of 1995, TAKING ANOTHER PAY CUT TO WORK FOR THE MINISTRY.
We have NEVER lived in ministry owned accommodations at any time other than in-residence.
(Oh, yeah, hoo-boy, those dorms were reeeeaallly cushy, weren't they, cooped up in a closet sized room with a gang of other people and eating freezer-burned mystery meat!)
Also-- we were NEVER EVER "expelled" from The Way International Headquarters.
On the contrary, my husband and I LEFT headquarters after one year on staff in 1983 after confronting people AT THE TRUSTEE LEVEL about abuses I discovered while on staff.
Though Walter Cummins begged us to stay, and I was offered another job in a different department if we would stay on, Geek and I decided that to remain on staff under the current situation was NOT of God, we TOLD them so, and LEFT.
And any "pampering" that has gone on in our lives is as a direct result of the work of our own hands, in my husband's own businesses, which netted us far more than any ministry paycheck ever did.
When I left the ministry, I LEFT OF MY OWN ACCORD. As a matter of fact, when I walked out of the meeting and told my daughter we would never go back, she was upset and called the Wallaces, who asked for a meeting with our family.
That TWI marked and avoided us for not putting up with their bull$hit doesn't take a whit away from the fact that I LEFT THEM.
Satori, you really do need to get your facts straight before you post. You'd be much more credible.
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A la prochaine
HCW,
I believe I asked this question earlier. But I was curious...
Is it legal in the state of New Mexico to transport people in the back of a pick-up truck?
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