quote:It appears to me that there are some who focus on controlling whatever positives are spoken concerning TWI. Positive words about twi principles are met with a sunami wave of contempt and the overall positive message of a post or a portion of a post is swept away in the name of, figuratively speaking,
"TWI, never was, is not now, nor will ever be good in any way shape or form."
Boy that's a fact if I ever heard one. Thanks HCW. :)-->
Which positive Way principles have been met with a tsunami of scorn, by the way? If you're going to make negative assertions, you're welcome to back them up.
HCW, George is a Japan-ophile. Tsunami is an anglicized Japanese word, as you probably know. Mis-spell it at your peril.
Yes, let's agree to disagree. Some people will see it one way, some others. No sense arguing over it.
Instead I am very "blessed" that HCW has chosen to share his story with us and lay out the truth of what happened.
For those of us who knew Rochelle, let's not forget the purpose of this thread was to memorialize her and others who were hurt in this terrible accident - to pay homage to a dear sister who eventually did not make it. And, I think we can see the far reaching consequences of it in the people's lives who were there.
I would like to again thank HCW for his courage in stepping up to share this with all of us, not just a few trusted friends.
quote:It appears to me that there are some who focus on controlling whatever positives are spoken concerning TWI. Positive words about twi principles are met with a sunami wave of contempt and the overall positive message of a post or a portion of a post is swept away in the name of, figuratively speaking,
"TWI, never was, is not now, nor will ever be good in any way shape or form."
People who recount good experiences in the midst of an admittedly BAD situation. Are MARKED as Wierwille worshippers. Their positive words are "avoided" and buried in deep in the thread as the wave of contempt washes in, crests, then washes out.
I think if I were Pawtucket (hint, hint), I would only have one rule: Speak for yourself. Unfortunately, that rule can't be enforced, so here we are often recounting "atrocities" that none of us witnessed or participated in. I can think of a half a dozen posters (maybe more) who came on these boards with an openness, and an innocence, who, during their introductions, admitted that they never met and didn't know Wierwille, barely knew Martindale, wouldn't recognize the rest of the trustees in a line-up, yet within a couple of months they are speaking authoritatively about Stalin, the WOW program, and suspected genocides, as if an evening spent at a night-owl is all anyone needs to understand first hand the horror of Auschwitz. For me, it's a disappointment, if only because I really enjoy the authenticity of those initial posts, before the cynicism sets in.
A few pages back, you made a comment about how people interpret stories beyond the writer’s intent. Of course they do, and they should. Weighing your experience against mine, your conclusions against mine, is what storytelling is all about. That’s often how moral choices are formed and decided, through processing stories. I can accept your story and your experience without accepting your conclusions, just like you can accept mine.
I hope you find a place here, HCW. I really do.
Is satori giving you the bum’s rush? It doesn’t seem so to me. I think you two are more in agreement than you think you are. And, even if you aren't, so what?
I disliked the wow burgers, but I kind of liked the bratwurst.
And the fruit salad.
I used to be chief top head boss lord man of that food operation. Ya know, the stretch from Farmers' Market all the way to the chicken shack. Grumelot was a smart guy. My stereo cabinet I still have Al helped me build.
But the Way and its principles, when taken as a whole, bites. Other adjectives may also apply.
quote:...yet within a couple of months they are speaking authoritatively about Stalin, the WOW program, and suspected genocides, as if an evening spent at a night-owl is all anyone needs to understand first hand the horror of Auschwitz.
Thanks for bringing this up Laleo. I am ever so intrigued by this phenomenon ... some folks abandon their own harmless or good thoughts and experiences of twi; ever so slowly and surely over time morphing and harmonizing their thoughts one by one in with other more dominant posters' evil and corrupted conceptions of twi. Like a vulcan mind meld. Or better yet, invasion of the body snatchers, only slower.
But, oldiesman, you're the mirror image of those same posters. Don't you see that? You'll take someone's painful experience and put a "harmless" spin on it, despite the fact that the person is sitting right in front of you telling you she was hurt. If she feels pain, then she feels pain. Who are you to say she ought to feel otherwise?
The rape incident did occur our first year in-rez. The corps guy got kicked out of the corps for it, but the girl, (victim) stayed in until the first part of our last year in-rez. We were on the 2nd LEAD group of that year and when we got back to Emporia, she left. It was all really hush hush, as it usually was when someone left.
I had no idea what had happened to her our first year, until Daggoo, I think it was, told me. (I was at another campus when the incident occurred.) I don't know anymore details than what I've said here, except I remember her name. Any other questions, pt me.
the gusty wind could have caused about the same thing to happen, regardless. It wasn't "driver distraction" that moved the truck over it was blam! A wall of wind hit the truck so hard it rocked side to side on the suspension. The steering wheel shook with both of Kevin's hands on it.
I've had than happen to me on gusty, windy days out in the country many times, even while driving my 'Z.' I've had "normal" wind pick me up on my motorcycle and drop me a few feet later.
No I'm NOT trying to excuse Kevin. We shouldn't have put the paper up on the steering wheel, period. It did contribute to the crash but it was not the primary mitigating factor. Yes he could have been a little less distracted, because he did take his eyes off the road for a second.
I'm honestly not sure that not doing the paper thing, in and of itself, would have prevented the crash. The weight of our load, the trailer itself, I think was more of a factor. The there was the wind. There are invisible wind "lanes" where it normally blows through where you can be driving along in a gentle breeze then WHAM, you're in it.
Donnie & the Staff dedided what vehicle we took that day. Did you miss the fact that we rode the bus (they already had) to the airport. Craig certainly didn't buy it the day he came out there. It was a nice day, we WANTED to ride in the open air truck. Folk VOLUNTEERED to ride back there. We didn't want to rid in a big yellow schoolbus we wanted to feel the wind in our hair and feel the breeze!
We were having a BLAST, right up til the moment we crashed.
These are not excuses they are facts. Please do not allow the fact that I tend to focus on the
positive to cause you to view me as a "TWI sympathiser."
I took the time to completely review whatever baggage I may have had from TWI. I've "processed" differences, made distinctions, and even determined what distinctions there are without a difference in my mind.
I took the time in starting around 1989/90 to sort through EVERY single thing I think I think. I dug so deep as to ask myself,
"Is blue REALLY your favorite color? OR do you just THINK it is because someone said it should be because it's the most popular favorite color in the world. Are you just tryin' to fit in to the group? Huh? Are you>? Well ARE you? Or what?
I realized I actually have grown to like a certain shade of blue-green as my fav. I went through every single thing I believe, every single thing I say, why do I say it THAT way? etc.
In so doing I've fond that being 'anti' anything is not healthy for our human brains. I can be anti TWI by being PRO freedom, etc.
I think being anti requires a bond with the thing you're anti to (or is it against?). It can keep one connected in a negative way to the very thing they don't like.. It also can blind people in certain areas at certain times.
I think anti taken to extremes leads to insane behavior; eg. SOME people who think other people shouldn't use the fur of animals as clothing, use the BLOOD of other animals ANTI the fur wearers.
People anti aborting the lives of unborn infants abort the lives of full grown adults.
Anti-war people declare war on the war.
These things are crazy to me.
The people are passionate, their causes are just. I think they get "drawn away of their own lusts, enticed..." and do crazy things.
I'm not saying you're crazy, santori or anybody. I think in your passion some look past some things and do the same thing you've (santori) accused me of. Like not having dealt with all my "baggage" from TWI.
I suggest that, if the fact that I said it, and the 'way' I said, "read the BIBLE" still taps "into several years of, well, it isn't love, stuff which mostly just sleeps with the past. Call them unpleasant experiences."
You're not as healed, and not as 'out' as you think you are.
I went through a phase like that. Beyond that is a place where, SINCE I firmly believe that TWI stole a LOT from my life AND they were and are wrong to have done that... I'm completely unwilling to let them have any more effect on me whatsoever.
TWI has no right to "change the natural use" of words into their catch phrases. Eventually I, feel we must "take the words back." We must take back the power they tried to hold over us. All of it, all of us.
I believe that when a person takes back all of their power, when a person is sufficiently healed; they can hear certain things and NOT be triggered into reliving past umpleasant things.
I will, however try to be more careful in how I sling stuff around. It certainly is not my intention to offend you or anyone else.
Actually. I think you have an entirely clear perspective and I like your challenging views. I hope our dicussion gives food for thought to many.
*******************
Anyways, I believe Kevin Smith was a hero that day. He saved lives by his driving. I choose to focus on the fact that he probably SAVED my life that day. He was responsible for a lot.
Again, thank you for sharing the truth of what happened to Rochelle.
As Sunesis said, it is so very easy to get sidetracked from the original purpose of the thread, and we should remember it was to memorialize Rochelle and tell the truth of what happened to her-- that her suicide resulted from depression possibly related to brain injury, which may not have been properly addressed due to TWI's lack of individual care and callousness of treatment.
It disheartens me to see people come here, try to make a decent point, fill in the missing pieces about a significant event, and they get derailed and picked to pieces, and mired down in the details of having to defend themselves against whatever some cyberbully decides to pick on.
This behavior actually mimicks what TWI did to us: strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel-- pick at one detail to the neglect of the main body of witness.
This happens way too often here these days, and it's too damn bad. That's the mildest way I can put it.
You know what HCW, those of us who were going to "get" the heart of what you wanted to share, GOT it. You have no obligation to explain yourself to people who truly don't give a damn about what you were trying to explain. Don't even try. Some folks here who think they are so enlightened (0N BOTH SIDES OF AN ISSUE), just hang out to tear folks down in order to build up their own egos.
Is Greasespot "anti-TWI?" I guess that's reasonable, it's been said enough. But I don't consider myself "anti-TWI," except in the context of being pro all ex-TWI'ers who are sorting out the damage and deceit they've experienced. By default, if you're supporting ex-TWI'ers, you are "anti" TWI. Otherwise I couldn't give a crap about TWI.
By the way, it's s.a.t.o.r.i, not santori. I'm wondering if you haven't been getting email or private messages from a few weak-minded individuals attempting to "help" you understand my POV.
When it comes to "healing," there is nothing "un-healed" about reacting angrily to behavior I find offensive, is there? It would be un-healed not to react, to take it passively when there was no reason to do so.
Yes, that's right, all you peons, get his name straight. It's not Santori, or Sartori, it's Satori, one who believes wisdom has come to him in a flash.
For one who says he is "pro all ex-TWI'ers who are sorting out the damage and deceit they've experienced" you certainly are adept at jumping all over innocent people who try to begin to express themselves here and work out the damage and deceit they have experienced.
I have a flash for you, o "wise one":
*
Get the reference?
Now, I leave this thread to it's original purpose: to memorialize another victim of TWI's insensitivity. Those who derail it to their own ends are known by their works.
Also I tend to agree with you in that it was his actions that probably made the accident be less than it could have.
I've a very strong view on personal accountability. Guess you noticed.
I've also not thrown out all I learned while in twi nearly 20 years. But I've no respect for the men and women that used God and His word in order to gain an advantage. I don't care what good may have come out of their mouths they still do not have my respect. But the goodness of God can't be trodden and that which I hold that was taught properly I cherish still.
Dear HCW, I just now read this thread and I remember that accident, it happend right after we F9 got back from lead and they started bringing in people from that wreck to recoup at Rome City, I think the first one to arrive was Carol Seed's sister, she came in with a hugh cast on her leg.
But no one was allowed to talk to any of them, they were kept in the executive? rooms and spoke to no one. It made some of us mad because we felt we could have helped them in some way.
All we were told was they had a traffic accident on the was to or from lead. I'm so happy to finally know the truth.
quote:...so here we are often recounting "atrocities" that none of us witnessed or participated in. I can think of a half a dozen posters (maybe more) who came on these boards with an openness, and an innocence, who, during their introductions, admitted that they never met and didn't know Wierwille, barely knew Martindale, wouldn't recognize the rest of the trustees in a line-up, yet within a couple of months they are speaking authoritatively about Stalin, the WOW program, and suspected genocides, as if an evening spent at a night-owl is all anyone needs to understand first hand the horror of Auschwitz.
I couldn't agree with you more on this. I've seen the same transformation, and the same subsequent "piling on" without any real eyewitness knowledge to impart. I wouldn't be surprised if some people who tell and retell others' stories might not begin to believe they "were there" and actually witnessed these things. They become more "real" in the repeated retelling.
I have to wonder if this phenomenon makes it harder for those who have a genuine story to tell (as in "it happened to ME") to be heard. I suspect it is, and that's a shame.
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HCW
As far as standing up, talking back. People did that a lot, especially after POP. People got "mad as hell, and we're not gonna take it anymore!" Of my personal pet peeves was the whole money thing. T
HAPe4me
I never participated in it, but I always thought it sounded like "Outward Bound", which has been measurably more successful in achieving it's participant's goals.
So_crates
Yes, but then there's the counter teaching: If you obey the MOG, God will bless you. So what do you do when the MOG orders you to act recklessly? Rhetorical question. SoCrates
oldiesman
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satori001
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outandabout
Yeah, the WOW burgers, they were good.
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satori001
Which positive Way principles have been met with a tsunami of scorn, by the way? If you're going to make negative assertions, you're welcome to back them up.
HCW, George is a Japan-ophile. Tsunami is an anglicized Japanese word, as you probably know. Mis-spell it at your peril.
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George Aar
Oh gawd, we've even got different churches with regard to food at The Rock.
Personally, I never cared for "W.O.W." burgers, but was terribly fond of "Colonel" Grumalot's fried chicken...
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satori001
I missed out on the fried chicken? Probably couldn't afford it.
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Sunesis
Yes, let's agree to disagree. Some people will see it one way, some others. No sense arguing over it.
Instead I am very "blessed" that HCW has chosen to share his story with us and lay out the truth of what happened.
For those of us who knew Rochelle, let's not forget the purpose of this thread was to memorialize her and others who were hurt in this terrible accident - to pay homage to a dear sister who eventually did not make it. And, I think we can see the far reaching consequences of it in the people's lives who were there.
I would like to again thank HCW for his courage in stepping up to share this with all of us, not just a few trusted friends.
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laleo
I think if I were Pawtucket (hint, hint), I would only have one rule: Speak for yourself. Unfortunately, that rule can't be enforced, so here we are often recounting "atrocities" that none of us witnessed or participated in. I can think of a half a dozen posters (maybe more) who came on these boards with an openness, and an innocence, who, during their introductions, admitted that they never met and didn't know Wierwille, barely knew Martindale, wouldn't recognize the rest of the trustees in a line-up, yet within a couple of months they are speaking authoritatively about Stalin, the WOW program, and suspected genocides, as if an evening spent at a night-owl is all anyone needs to understand first hand the horror of Auschwitz. For me, it's a disappointment, if only because I really enjoy the authenticity of those initial posts, before the cynicism sets in.
A few pages back, you made a comment about how people interpret stories beyond the writer’s intent. Of course they do, and they should. Weighing your experience against mine, your conclusions against mine, is what storytelling is all about. That’s often how moral choices are formed and decided, through processing stories. I can accept your story and your experience without accepting your conclusions, just like you can accept mine.
I hope you find a place here, HCW. I really do.
Is satori giving you the bum’s rush? It doesn’t seem so to me. I think you two are more in agreement than you think you are. And, even if you aren't, so what?
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TheEvan
I disliked the wow burgers, but I kind of liked the bratwurst.
And the fruit salad.
I used to be chief top head boss lord man of that food operation. Ya know, the stretch from Farmers' Market all the way to the chicken shack. Grumelot was a smart guy. My stereo cabinet I still have Al helped me build.
But the Way and its principles, when taken as a whole, bites. Other adjectives may also apply.
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oldiesman
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laleo
But, oldiesman, you're the mirror image of those same posters. Don't you see that? You'll take someone's painful experience and put a "harmless" spin on it, despite the fact that the person is sitting right in front of you telling you she was hurt. If she feels pain, then she feels pain. Who are you to say she ought to feel otherwise?
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ex10
Please excuse the side conversation here.
JohnnyL
The rape incident did occur our first year in-rez. The corps guy got kicked out of the corps for it, but the girl, (victim) stayed in until the first part of our last year in-rez. We were on the 2nd LEAD group of that year and when we got back to Emporia, she left. It was all really hush hush, as it usually was when someone left.
I had no idea what had happened to her our first year, until Daggoo, I think it was, told me. (I was at another campus when the incident occurred.) I don't know anymore details than what I've said here, except I remember her name. Any other questions, pt me.
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Steve!
Um, was it the 10th cork guy that committed the rape?
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satori001
No, a truck driver did it, kidnapping his female passenger (hitch hiker) while the Corps guy was inside a rest stop.
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HCW
It was entirely possible that
the gusty wind could have caused about the same thing to happen, regardless. It wasn't "driver distraction" that moved the truck over it was blam! A wall of wind hit the truck so hard it rocked side to side on the suspension. The steering wheel shook with both of Kevin's hands on it.
I've had than happen to me on gusty, windy days out in the country many times, even while driving my 'Z.' I've had "normal" wind pick me up on my motorcycle and drop me a few feet later.
No I'm NOT trying to excuse Kevin. We shouldn't have put the paper up on the steering wheel, period. It did contribute to the crash but it was not the primary mitigating factor. Yes he could have been a little less distracted, because he did take his eyes off the road for a second.
I'm honestly not sure that not doing the paper thing, in and of itself, would have prevented the crash. The weight of our load, the trailer itself, I think was more of a factor. The there was the wind. There are invisible wind "lanes" where it normally blows through where you can be driving along in a gentle breeze then WHAM, you're in it.
Donnie & the Staff dedided what vehicle we took that day. Did you miss the fact that we rode the bus (they already had) to the airport. Craig certainly didn't buy it the day he came out there. It was a nice day, we WANTED to ride in the open air truck. Folk VOLUNTEERED to ride back there. We didn't want to rid in a big yellow schoolbus we wanted to feel the wind in our hair and feel the breeze!
We were having a BLAST, right up til the moment we crashed.
These are not excuses they are facts. Please do not allow the fact that I tend to focus on the
positive to cause you to view me as a "TWI sympathiser."
I took the time to completely review whatever baggage I may have had from TWI. I've "processed" differences, made distinctions, and even determined what distinctions there are without a difference in my mind.
I took the time in starting around 1989/90 to sort through EVERY single thing I think I think. I dug so deep as to ask myself,
"Is blue REALLY your favorite color? OR do you just THINK it is because someone said it should be because it's the most popular favorite color in the world. Are you just tryin' to fit in to the group? Huh? Are you>? Well ARE you? Or what?
I realized I actually have grown to like a certain shade of blue-green as my fav. I went through every single thing I believe, every single thing I say, why do I say it THAT way? etc.
In so doing I've fond that being 'anti' anything is not healthy for our human brains. I can be anti TWI by being PRO freedom, etc.
I think being anti requires a bond with the thing you're anti to (or is it against?). It can keep one connected in a negative way to the very thing they don't like.. It also can blind people in certain areas at certain times.
I think anti taken to extremes leads to insane behavior; eg. SOME people who think other people shouldn't use the fur of animals as clothing, use the BLOOD of other animals ANTI the fur wearers.
People anti aborting the lives of unborn infants abort the lives of full grown adults.
Anti-war people declare war on the war.
These things are crazy to me.
The people are passionate, their causes are just. I think they get "drawn away of their own lusts, enticed..." and do crazy things.
I'm not saying you're crazy, santori or anybody. I think in your passion some look past some things and do the same thing you've (santori) accused me of. Like not having dealt with all my "baggage" from TWI.
I suggest that, if the fact that I said it, and the 'way' I said, "read the BIBLE" still taps "into several years of, well, it isn't love, stuff which mostly just sleeps with the past. Call them unpleasant experiences."
You're not as healed, and not as 'out' as you think you are.
I went through a phase like that. Beyond that is a place where, SINCE I firmly believe that TWI stole a LOT from my life AND they were and are wrong to have done that... I'm completely unwilling to let them have any more effect on me whatsoever.
TWI has no right to "change the natural use" of words into their catch phrases. Eventually I, feel we must "take the words back." We must take back the power they tried to hold over us. All of it, all of us.
I believe that when a person takes back all of their power, when a person is sufficiently healed; they can hear certain things and NOT be triggered into reliving past umpleasant things.
I will, however try to be more careful in how I sling stuff around. It certainly is not my intention to offend you or anyone else.
Actually. I think you have an entirely clear perspective and I like your challenging views. I hope our dicussion gives food for thought to many.
*******************
Anyways, I believe Kevin Smith was a hero that day. He saved lives by his driving. I choose to focus on the fact that he probably SAVED my life that day. He was responsible for a lot.
Its MY story and I'm stickin to it.
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Catcup
HCW,
Again, thank you for sharing the truth of what happened to Rochelle.
As Sunesis said, it is so very easy to get sidetracked from the original purpose of the thread, and we should remember it was to memorialize Rochelle and tell the truth of what happened to her-- that her suicide resulted from depression possibly related to brain injury, which may not have been properly addressed due to TWI's lack of individual care and callousness of treatment.
It disheartens me to see people come here, try to make a decent point, fill in the missing pieces about a significant event, and they get derailed and picked to pieces, and mired down in the details of having to defend themselves against whatever some cyberbully decides to pick on.
This behavior actually mimicks what TWI did to us: strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel-- pick at one detail to the neglect of the main body of witness.
This happens way too often here these days, and it's too damn bad. That's the mildest way I can put it.
You know what HCW, those of us who were going to "get" the heart of what you wanted to share, GOT it. You have no obligation to explain yourself to people who truly don't give a damn about what you were trying to explain. Don't even try. Some folks here who think they are so enlightened (0N BOTH SIDES OF AN ISSUE), just hang out to tear folks down in order to build up their own egos.
Thanks again.
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satori001
Is Greasespot "anti-TWI?" I guess that's reasonable, it's been said enough. But I don't consider myself "anti-TWI," except in the context of being pro all ex-TWI'ers who are sorting out the damage and deceit they've experienced. By default, if you're supporting ex-TWI'ers, you are "anti" TWI. Otherwise I couldn't give a crap about TWI.
By the way, it's s.a.t.o.r.i, not santori. I'm wondering if you haven't been getting email or private messages from a few weak-minded individuals attempting to "help" you understand my POV.
When it comes to "healing," there is nothing "un-healed" about reacting angrily to behavior I find offensive, is there? It would be un-healed not to react, to take it passively when there was no reason to do so.
Catbox, Festivus is over. (Get the reference?)
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ex10
Steve,
What satori said. The corps guy broke one of the "safety rules" of hitching by leaving his female partner in the truck alone.
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Catcup
Yes, that's right, all you peons, get his name straight. It's not Santori, or Sartori, it's Satori, one who believes wisdom has come to him in a flash.
For one who says he is "pro all ex-TWI'ers who are sorting out the damage and deceit they've experienced" you certainly are adept at jumping all over innocent people who try to begin to express themselves here and work out the damage and deceit they have experienced.
I have a flash for you, o "wise one":
*
Get the reference?
Now, I leave this thread to it's original purpose: to memorialize another victim of TWI's insensitivity. Those who derail it to their own ends are known by their works.
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houseisarockin
Howard, thank you and I stand corrected.
Also I tend to agree with you in that it was his actions that probably made the accident be less than it could have.
I've a very strong view on personal accountability. Guess you noticed.
I've also not thrown out all I learned while in twi nearly 20 years. But I've no respect for the men and women that used God and His word in order to gain an advantage. I don't care what good may have come out of their mouths they still do not have my respect. But the goodness of God can't be trodden and that which I hold that was taught properly I cherish still.
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wyteduv58
Dear HCW, I just now read this thread and I remember that accident, it happend right after we F9 got back from lead and they started bringing in people from that wreck to recoup at Rome City, I think the first one to arrive was Carol Seed's sister, she came in with a hugh cast on her leg.
But no one was allowed to talk to any of them, they were kept in the executive? rooms and spoke to no one. It made some of us mad because we felt we could have helped them in some way.
All we were told was they had a traffic accident on the was to or from lead. I'm so happy to finally know the truth.
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Linda Z
laleo said:
I couldn't agree with you more on this. I've seen the same transformation, and the same subsequent "piling on" without any real eyewitness knowledge to impart. I wouldn't be surprised if some people who tell and retell others' stories might not begin to believe they "were there" and actually witnessed these things. They become more "real" in the repeated retelling.
I have to wonder if this phenomenon makes it harder for those who have a genuine story to tell (as in "it happened to ME") to be heard. I suspect it is, and that's a shame.
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satori001
It was always your best side (from what everybody says).
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satori001
Can anyone spell out for us what "piling on" is taking place?
HCW, other than the "bum's rush" (I still don't get that), are you feeling "piled" upon? Seems to me that you're doing alright.
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